Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

Lmao. Someone wants to remove flying. Do you really think making travel time longer is challenging?

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Originally Posted by Nuna

Lmao. Someone wants to remove flying. Do you really think making travel time longer is challenging?

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By itself, no. But since having flight does remove all topographical complexity of a map, and since there isn't presently any airborne complexity to replace that with...

(I guess maybe in the Sea of Clouds you can trim a few seconds' travel time by remembering which island your target area is hidden behind and/or cutting between them at a consistent angle of ascent or decent, but that's all the complexity of taking the shortest path from A to B. There are no flying enemies, nothing to accelerate travel, nor any appreciable flight physics to make it more exciting.)

There's plenty that can be made to give flight challenges of its own, and in some cases even make the ground safer and slower while the skies are riskier but more rewarding. Just as you can do with ground mounts vs. going on foot if you had mount health, turning speed, morale, etc. It's just that the game is entirely bare-bones in those areas.

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Originally Posted by Mraj

I think that attitude stems from the content being more of a dance with specific steps that must be done a certain way to ensure the party doesn't wipe. Naturally, people will have to practice more ( or less ) depending on skill level, and finding consistent groups at the same level can be difficult, as we've seen over the years. Again, I'd just like to stress that content difficulty should not mean "more phases" in trials, but instead content that can be considered difficult while being able to be handled dynamically.

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While I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more variance in means of handling a given mechanic in a few fights, I don't think there's anything wrong with dance fights, especially when there's still enough leniency not to interrupt casts constantly (or if such is used for fitting spectacle, as in T9S, used rarely enough that casters aren't significantly devalued compared to their later bonuses). Done right, it gives a neat sense of being pulled along by the mechanics, getting a handle on its flow, finally ascending over or staying atop them, only to be introduced to a new current. Now, that's a rarity, but that feeling does come directly from the patterned positional relative and exact intervals of 'dance fights'.

I'd like to see other ways of approaching fight design, just as if possible I'd like to see more pattern and less script, something that'd have you looking more at your allies than at a rotational sheet, within 'dance fights' themselves. (Heck, if you could imagine a trial that doesn't even have combat, exactly, literally being a dance of sorts to appease the spirits where you're as much creative as reactive, as awesomely as you can imagine that incredibly vague concept, and then merge the two... it'd probably be something like that or within the spectrum of that combination.) Pretty much exactly as you had bolded. A bit less rigidity, in what design types we have, and within the design types we have.

...Also, I wonder if we're ever going to get sub-targets, e.g. Brachiosaurus feet and its head...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more variance in means of handling a given mechanic in a few fights, I don't think there's anything wrong with dance fights, especially when there's still enough leniency not to interrupt casts

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One fight which I dearly missed from my previous MMO was one where it was effectively an Arena with 20 waves of mobs thrown at you and an 8 minute hard enrage. Now each and every mob puts crippling debuffs on the team (like Vul up and damage down or slows etc etc) to the extent where the healers have to immediately triage which debuff is the most important to remove and which to just deal with. And to top it off, if someone dies, they get a Weakness 15% stat down stackable till 5 with a 1 minute duration.

This was a Savage level trial and there were many ways you could approach the fight like bringing more tanks and healers would mean an easier time with the debuffs but you risk enrage, or bringing more DPS and hard burn but risk one mistake costing the whole 8 minute run.

The five headed dragon in the World of Darkness kind of fits the bill of a multi-targeted foe, though it only happens once it starts building up its insta wipe attack.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

The five headed dragon in the World of Darkness kind of fits the bill of a multi-targeted foe, though it only happens once it starts building up its insta wipe attack.

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I was thinking more along the lines of areas that are tactically, rather than just reactively, targetable. Taking on a large Garlean mech, you can take out its knees, apply knockbacks to its feet mid-step, take out its sensors (elevation breaks or multipliers meaning this is best done from atop the nearby towers, which can be taken out by the mech), take out its arms, its main cannon, and so forth. There may end up being a conventional order to it, but each variation in composition, prior items (picked up sapper satchels, etc., placed in key items specific to the instance and bindable to the bar), environmental weapons remaining (cannons saved), preparative work (supporting airships taken down or hyjacked?) can really play into different priorities or preference, and each start to a kill order gives multiple consequent follow-ups. Just another way to throw in some interesting complexities... while also not striking thin air 30 ft below the belly of the beast you're trying to punch.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I was thinking more along the lines of areas that are tactically, rather than just reactively, targetable. Taking on a large Garlean mech, you can take out its knees, apply knockbacks to its feet mid-step, take out its sensors (elevation breaks or multipliers meaning this is best done from atop the nearby towers, which can be taken out by the mech), take out its arms, its main cannon, and so forth. There may end up being a conventional order to it, but each variation in composition, prior items (picked up sapper satchels, etc., placed in key items specific to the instance and bindable to the bar), environmental weapons remaining (cannons saved), preparative work (supporting airships taken down or hyjacked?) can really play into different priorities or preference, and each start to a kill order gives multiple consequent follow-ups. Just another way to throw in some interesting complexities... while also not striking thin air 30 ft below the belly of the beast you're trying to punch.

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Or you could even.

Have a power control mechanic on it. You over-damage the legs and instead of it getting knockback it could counter with a rockets or elements, if you damage it just enough it will get the knockback effect. Permanence and conventional order would make it a pre-scripted dance. And the legs gain repairs periodically.

You can jam it's cannon by applying heat to it. Overheat it and the mech gets pulse bombs AoE which are even worse than the cannons. Damage it just enough and the cannons potency gets severely hampered. And the cannons get repaired periodically.

Damage it's instrument panels and the mech loses mobillity, over damage it and the mech gains homing skills or flies in the air mostly invulnerable. And the instrument panels get periodically repaired.

The one area that damage if permanent has high defense and HP in so that if you try to take it down ignoring side mechanics, it is next to impossible or takes so much longer it is less efficient.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; add more variety to the content out side of just spam farming the same thing over and over. Truthfully you really only need to run a raid, dungeon, trial, FATE ( the list goes on) once. Having to spam the same piece of content over and over again gets really old really fast. And as of late it feels like with every patch, they keep bringing in new things versus developing and enhancing on what they already have.

I really feel like the "inclusive" approach they've been taking is starting to hurt the game a bit. Most of what we get in terms of content has been centered on being new player friendly and everybody can participate, and the DEVs seem to have forgotten that they have people who have been playing this game for 3-5 years now. Deep Dungeon for example: Great way to enroll new players, it's a new way to level up, and all the floors are never the same. Great! It would have been better if it was something that came out at ARR Launch, because, as a player that has a preferred job that he already has maxed; Going into new content and having to start at level one is a turn off. Why would I want to repeat that grind again, especially if I have no interest in leveling up another job?

I understand the need and desire to attract new players, and making them feel included. I, as an ongoing player, want to enjoy this game just as much as a new comer, but having to spam a weeks worth of new content for a period of three months, be it for gear, whatever, just isn't enough.

I'm waiting for the further PotD floors, as Yoshi P has stated the escalating difficulty will mean not everyone will be able to get to floor 200.

And I'm perfectly fine with that, even if I end up someway short of the final floor. If that's as far as I can go, whilst other players finish several levels higher, then good for them and I'd give them a well done.

Just hoping it's not too long before we get these.

hm....I don't think it is afraid of a challenge, its just, I've seen what this game's idea of challenge looks like, and it is not the fun kind of challenge.

It is either running the easy content a large number of times until it is well past boring...
or dealing with teeth pulling mechanics with a party of 8, where if one person is out of step, well time to all line up in front of the boss to die, assuming it wasn't some time bomb dps race with OHKOs just for giggles...

After that fight, I'm at a loss at what I enjoy. I have to choose between too unforgiving or too repetitive. I know no one is above needing work on their own role, but when its not your fault, and you still lose consistently, that's when the challenge becomes something not worth doing instead.

Remember also that the challenge mechanics are rather limited in what they can be by virtue of the game medium we are playing. Square has to take into account people with pings of 100+, especially in light of the recent Level3 lag issues that players in the US Southeast have been experiencing as of late. If the mechanics are too unforgiving, or too fast paced, some players may not even see the mechanic happen until it has already gone off.

And sure, you could say "well then they shouldn't be playing", but the likelihood of Square cutting out tens of thousands of paying customers so the rest can experience more of a challenge in their gameplay is pretty small, IMO.

I'm a little late to this conversation, but... This game has some of the easiest PvE content of any MMO period and still people want nerfs. Even the devs are in on it, and certainly the end game culture of speedrunning to grind tomes doesn't help.

My main MMO is WildStar; I returned to FFXIV after a lengthy break as a relaxing side diversion (and hoping I can just ignore all the things that made me quit the last time). That game has some of the most challenging PvE content I've ever seen in an MMO, and honestly I've seen FFXIV players come into this game and have a very bad time. That's not to say they couldn't figure things out given time, but I do think people who play this game get comfortable with a certain level of difficulty (or rather, lack of difficulty) that permeates FFXIV for the most part. In this game, "challenge" often equates to "extremely long and tedious grind", unless one is talking about the very top of the top of current endgame (and even that is a degree easier than content in another MMO).

I don't know if I'd say players are AFRAID of a challenge, but I think the game definitely sets you up to expect a certain level of difficulty (read: not hard at all), and anything outside of that seems impossible.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I'm a little late to this conversation, but... This game has some of the easiest PvE content of any MMO period and still people want nerfs. Even the devs are in on it, and certainly the end game culture of speedrunning to grind tomes doesn't help...

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In Wildstar, is it possible for the party to recover during endgame encounters when the deaths start? because the lv3 healer limit break is looking pretty laughable in the face of hard enrages and instant kills taking out weakened party members seconds after they are up. its like its designed to fail now. (lvl1 and 2 are not even worth mentioning.)

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I'm a little late to this conversation, but... This game has some of the easiest PvE content of any MMO period and still people want nerfs. Even the devs are in on it, and certainly the end game culture of speedrunning to grind tomes doesn't help.

My main MMO is WildStar; I returned to FFXIV after a lengthy break as a relaxing side diversion (and hoping I can just ignore all the things that made me quit the last time). That game has some of the most challenging PvE content I've ever seen in an MMO, and honestly I've seen FFXIV players come into this game and have a very bad time. That's not to say they couldn't figure things out given time, but I do think people who play this game get comfortable with a certain level of difficulty (or rather, lack of difficulty) that permeates FFXIV for the most part. In this game, "challenge" often equates to "extremely long and tedious grind", unless one is talking about the very top of the top of current endgame (and even that is a degree easier than content in another MMO).

I don't know if I'd say players are AFRAID of a challenge, but I think the game definitely sets you up to expect a certain level of difficulty (read: not hard at all), and anything outside of that seems impossible.

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Wildstar isn't exactly a great example, though. The niche it was trying to fill was specifically hardcore raiders who were disenfranchised with the "easy" nature of other MMOs.

Turns out, there weren't too many of those, and now Wildstar is in bad shape.

The likelihood of FFXIV adopting one of Wildstar's core features is akin to suggesting Walmart adopt some of K-Marts core practices.

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Originally Posted by Windi

Also, I'd like to know why you think getting from one town to the next should be that much of a challenge to begin with? Like, if the only real reward or satisfaction you receive is simply "I got to the next town, now I got to do it again for the next!" then what's the point? I really don't think trivial tasks should have any more risk than what's already presented in this game.

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There should be an middle ground with this. The reward of traveling to a place far off, is it gives a sense of the scale of the world. The danger does indeed give an accomplished feeling. I still joke with FFXI players about the first runs to Juneo to this day, 10 years later...something every FFXI player knows about. Granted it's a small thing, but to talk about 10 years later is quite worth the hassle. It was a JOURNEY. I don't think I'll talk about anything like that with this game sadly.

Honestly that goes with most of FFXI in general as well. Aside from daily grinding, I recall fairly well every event I had in that game, due to its difficulty and reward for completing it. That horrible grind to level really made the missions/cutscenes/completion special to me and others.

One note: If AI aggro mechanics came back like 1.0. I hope zones and enemy spacing is a bit wider. I noticed on most modern mmos they try and slap them into tight spaces forcing the fight. You should be able to avoid them either through smart play or sometimes just going around them.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

There should be an middle ground with this. The reward of traveling to a place far off, is it gives a sense of the scale of the world. The danger does indeed give an accomplished feeling. I still joke with FFXI players about the first runs to Juneo to this day, 10 years later...something every FFXI player knows about. Granted it's a small thing, but to talk about 10 years later is quite worth the hassle. It was a JOURNEY. I don't think I'll talk about anything like that with this game sadly.

Honestly that goes with most of FFXI in general as well. Aside from daily grinding, I recall fairly well every event I had in that game, due to its difficulty and reward for completing it. That horrible grind to level really made the missions/cutscenes/completion special to me and others.

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Don't forget to credit the fact that the quality of the story and soundtrack together made for a far grander adventure to experience than what we get in modern MMO's (including here). While this game has a great story, it isn't told in the same way. Here, you're just a rather cheesy tool that is intentionally cliched (i.e. The Warrior of Nodding). It's odd to really think about, but the fact that our characters are some important focal point of the story doesn't seem to mesh as well.

I guess the best example I can think of is the fact that we're generally more interested in the other characters than we are with our own. In games like XI and WoW, your character becomes a recognized figure of importance, but still a "normal" person. In light of that, the story doesn't necessarily center around you, but rather the happenings of others. Granted that the finale for XI's story centers around that same concept, it's done in such a finely tuned way that it actually makes some sense... over a decade of story build up can certainly ease a cliche plot into being a lot more memorable. While we do experience that here, the inclusion of the WoL focus from the very beginning is where it results in being cheesy at times and thus, an odd thing to think about.

One other thing to note is that the reward never changed from start to finish (for the most part). XI managed to keep the status quo constant without players really noticing. Because of the inclusion of things like Merit Points and, to a lesser degree, a need to keep a high amount of exp on your capped level so that you don't de-level (yes, that was definitely a thing to anyone who didn't play), your sense of reward was long lasting. Not only did you get gear, you also kept the sense of reward for "leveling" going thanks to Merit Points making your character stronger. In another instance, XIV suffers similar to WoW by comparison, but a far greater way when you hit max level, simply due to the limitations of doing old content (not to mention WoW has over 10 more years of content compared to XIV).

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Originally Posted by Kallera

In Wildstar, is it possible for the party to recover during endgame encounters when the deaths start? because the lv3 healer limit break is looking pretty laughable in the face of hard enrages and instant kills taking out weakened party members seconds after they are up. its like its designed to fail now. (lvl1 and 2 are not even worth mentioning.)

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No, we have no in-combat resurrection abilities in WildStar, though there have certainly been times when I would have liked one. The raids are 25-man, so depending on the player and situation, losing one person is not necessarily the end of the world. But it's very, very easy for that to spiral out of control.

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Originally Posted by Tolmos

The likelihood of FFXIV adopting one of Wildstar's core features is akin to suggesting Walmart adopt some of K-Marts core practices.

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That's not what my post was about at all. xD I was using WildStar - a game I actually presently play and very much enjoy alongside many other people - as a comparison for difficulty levels given the topic of this thread.

I do think it's pretty sad that there's next to no truly challenging content in this game, but that is the decision SE has gone with apparently. (And no, "challenge" is not "long, tedious grind" in my opinion.)

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Originally Posted by Naunet

That's not what my post was about at all. xD I was using WildStar - a game I actually presently play and very much enjoy alongside many other people - as a comparison for difficulty levels given the topic of this thread.

I do think it's pretty sad that there's next to no truly challenging content in this game, but that is the decision SE has gone with apparently. (And no, "challenge" is not "long, tedious grind" in my opinion.)

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Oops, sorry. My fault. I thought it was.

What about savage mode stuff? Maybe I'm just getting old and my reflexes are dulling a bit, but that seems pretty tough to me.

When I quit, we were doing Second Coil, and it was before Savage Mode had been released, so I can't really speak to their difficulty very much. I recall reading about it as it was upcoming content, and at the time it was basically billed as the current difficulty of raids, while the "normal modes" would be released as easier versions. If that is the case, then I'd say while those had their moments of difficulty, they don't really come close to other content I've tackled (in WildStar, but also in other MMOs). First and Second Coil were mechanically very simple. If Savage Mode has become something far more, then I wouldn't know.

However, that would be a single raid out of the entire content. All 4-man dungeons I ever participated in were laughably simple, and trials didn't put up much of a fight either. The thing that killed people the most was telegraph lag (think the Titan EX landslides), not the genuine difficulty of a fight. I think the fact that 99% of the content is ridiculously easy definitely creates a community that expects and grows used to easy content. I think that is what plays a large role in the "one wipe and we quit" mentality that permeates the game, as well.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

All 4-man dungeons I ever participated in were laughably simple, and trials didn't put up much of a fight either.

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I think part of what exacerbates the issue of 4 mans being laughably simple is that we outgear them so badly after a while. Once you are in raid tiered gear, you basically steamroll the dungeons without needing to put forth much effort into dodging anything.

I know that this might not sit well with everyone, but what if 4-mans were ilvl locked to something that kept the player in a range where they had to really pay attention or fail to do enough DPS/fail to keep the tank alive/die to ground targets? This wouldn't really solve the issue of the fights themselves being simplistic, but some of the heavensward 4-mans were actually rather involved, and having recently done some of them at the intended ilvl, I felt it kept me on my toes for most of the boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Tolmos

I know that this might not sit well with everyone, but what if 4-mans were ilvl locked to somethin

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i still wish arf was set to i200, i mean those tomes man. As far as difficulty in content? Until the entire system is changed especially the relic steps, it wont matter too entirely much' Raid gear? ugly af, and looks the same as story raid gear. Usuable in next raid? hell no that new dank primal weapon is what theyre going to use, for 3 weeks until they get that tome weapon. if dungeons were even more difficult since all they are is tome dispensers, theyd probably be dead because at end game people are either building up tome gear, powering up relics or gearing through raids with a boring stat allocation. Hell some even do hunts because its faster easier and less of a headache than dealing with dailies and the chance they may get a run thats entirely too long for their tastes.

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Originally Posted by Tolmos

I think part of what exacerbates the issue of 4 mans being laughably simple is that we outgear them so badly after a while. Once you are in raid tiered gear, you basically steamroll the dungeons without needing to put forth much effort into dodging anything.

I know that this might not sit well with everyone, but what if 4-mans were ilvl locked to something that kept the player in a range where they had to really pay attention or fail to do enough DPS/fail to keep the tank alive/die to ground targets?

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As long as you left it an option, and the sync worked both ways (the more your gear is scaled down, the higher the reward – including daily bonus(?) – is scaled up) I doubt anyone would complain.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

As long as you left it an option, and the sync worked both ways (the more your gear is scaled down, the higher the reward – including daily bonus(?) – is scaled up) I doubt anyone would complain.

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This ill agree on totally.

I'm a little concerned with how many comments point at the players themselves being the real challenge of the game. The duty finder as useful as it is has bred this type of culture.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The duty finder as useful as it is has bred this type of culture.

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It would be more precise to say: It "supports" this type of culture.

There are people who would steal if they could do it without consequences and there are people who would not even if they could. Consequences for stealing do not make the prior group go away or change their culture, it merely changes their behaviour. They will still steal on every occasion where they can get away with it. And the duty finder does just that - it lets people get away. Or, more precisely, the people inside the duty finder let people get away with it. They could kick underperformers consistently, but they don't.

There are various sorts of players.
The more challenging, the more fun.
The more challenging, the more frustration.

Some like challenges of memorization, some like challenges of trial-and-error, some like challenges of reflexes, others of coordination & logistics or strategy & tactics.
This can take form in the method of acquiring the most gil/profitable business, min-maxing every last ounce of damage, solving lucrative spatial/logic puzzles, commanding multiple simultaneous mechanic features and devising a success strategy or manipulating social relationships to acquire power and status.

Some just like the routine and grind of doing the same thing over and over.

Some players can't do a challenge because they don't have the time available.

As far as I can see it, most people are complacent. Not many are risk-takers, overachievers or wanting to be challenged. Most like to be in their comfort zone, living the daily grind away. This is reflected in everyday life (live as a follower, stay low, don't cause trouble).

Out of how many people do you see in real life that exploit every opportunity and are perfectionistic/super-compelled to risk to learn more, to do more and execute more? Probably not a whole lot (unless you're a CEO).

If you want to find players that like to be challenged, you will have to look at the most competitive aspects of the game.
As with most MMOs, hardcore raiding/PvP/competitive mini-games are activities that merely a fractional portion of the playerbase are good at/like to participate in. These [activities] are arguably the most challenging content that the game has to offer in the primitive/non-existent AI era.


I don't think it's that players are afraid of the challenge, some just don't see the justification behind it if the rewards are so meager. If there were exclusive glamours, items or rewards of some sort, they might be incentivized to getting better and being more proficient. Some just hate being challenged altogether because it stresses them out too much and they can't handle the anxiety associated with being labelled as inept or having demonstrable repercussions on the team that lead others to be frustrated with them (which the overly sensitive would call toxic, and the less cynical, just untactful).

Someone that wants to be challenged would demonstrate virtues of self-improvement, efficiency and optimization or technical skill, power/dominance, be more achievement/status-orientated. If we're looking purely from the game's standpoint, this would fall under the "NT" and "SP" sub-group category under Keirsey's Temperament Sorter of specialization and preference. From modest reported numbers, this is around 23 - 34% of the population. Players, especially in MMOs are also more likely introverted then extroverted just by nature of self-selection of reducing environmental stimulus. This dwindles the percentage of all possible persons of having this virtue to 12 - 17% of the population. However, the "NT" group are statistically more likely to be involved in video games than other groups. A conservative estimate would be that 1 in 4 players that you meet in-game enjoy a [game] challenge simply because of the person's nature.

So if we assume that only 1/4 of players have the propensity and predilection to enjoy any sort of challenge, then you factor in that maybe less than half have the sufficient amount of time investment to acquire the level of skill and proficiency needed to overcome said challenge, you have less than 1 in 8 players that like a challenge and are able to overcome said challenge. Add in the factor of the rewards not justifying the effort invested, and you can easily see why most of these 'challenge'-tailored content only "excites" 1 in 10 players or less enough to even try said content.

Now if FFXIV were a MOBA or FPS, this would be a whole different story.

The solution I see is quite easy. A world that is hard, has specialized content that is adjusted to be a tad harder, and has leaderboards all around or performance records at the end of dungeon runs, and everything possible to enable people to overcome challenges one step at a time (whether that be replays or whatever). A second world like the current one, where you can turn on autopilot mode and enjoy the scenery of the game with all its goodies and no stress. Of course, this isn't feasible development wise, nor does it justify the financial numbers at the end of the day, but this would solve the 'challenge/hardcore/serious-orientated/do-your-best' vs 'non-challenge/casual/relax/just-try-don't-worry crowd' dichotomy that's been popping up every other thread.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I'm a little concerned with how many comments point at the players themselves being the real challenge of the game. The duty finder as useful as it is has bred this type of culture.

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Or the amount of people who white knight SE, until they go away and SE actually puts forth effort, there really is no way this game will get better.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The duty finder as useful as it is has bred this type of culture.

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Maybe this is the case, or maybe not... but as someone who has been playing MMOs since '97, I can say that I do NOT miss the days before duty finder. Even nostalgia goggles do not make me remember the annoyance of herding cats more fondly than it was.

If I had to point to one Quality of Life feature that I consider a drastic improvement over the days of old, Dungeon Finders pretty much wins out. I can't tell you how many players, back in those days, simply didn't do any PvE outside of base grinding/leveling in the open world because of the frustration of putting together a party for a dungeon. Back then, it was all about the "solo player" vs "the raider". There was almost no inbetween. Now, thanks to dungeon finder, that line is blurred and more people are participating in content.

Sure, an argument could be made for why dungeoning should still be some sort of "elite club" for people with the patience to deal with that sort of time wasting, I can't say I fit in that camp. Personally, I enjoy being able to spend more time doing what I WANT to do in the game, vs standing around in town wasting 1 hour putting together a group for a 25 minute run.

What about adding solo difficulty option for dungeons? People not wanting challenge could do for exp/gear. This would perhaps mean those using DF were self-selecting for a challenge and would improve quality of parties.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

What about adding solo difficulty option for dungeons? People not wanting challenge could do for exp/gear. This would perhaps mean those using DF were self-selecting for a challenge and would improve quality of parties.

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I doubt they will implement any option that lowers the number of people queueing for DF. Managing queue times is one of the biggest challenges for most companies like this, so they want to funnel as many people as possible into that thing.

I don't think that players be afraid of challenge. The problem is rather that the challenge exists until it is defeated. After, the repetition transforms the challenge as a constraint. And it is not fun anymore.

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

I don't think that players be afraid of challenge. The problem is rather that the challenge exists until it is defeated. After, the repetition transforms the challenge as a constraint. And it is not fun anymore.

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Couldn't you say the same thing of roulette though?

I am always supporting suggestions asking for more challenge but I can't see this happening.
This really isn't what Yoshida aims for.

I like your idea and hope that you decide to come up with more suggestions for challenge. ^^

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I'm a little concerned with how many comments point at the players themselves being the real challenge of the game. The duty finder as useful as it is has bred this type of culture.

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Unfortunately, the DF exists because, without it, people simply wouldn't play. Even WoW had to embrace a more casual centric market to accommodate the average gamer. Gaming has become far more mainstream than ever before, and that brings a multitude of different types of players. This all said, I do think FFXIV swings too far in the opposite direction with how absurdly easy some content gets.

I'm not saying instanced content has no place but we are a bit top heavy on it by now.