Low level tanks (pre-tank stance) have a very hard time holding threat after the nerf

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Originally Posted by Rongway

nothing compared to the potency per GCD lost by healers and DDs when the tank isn't doing his job.

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This is for you, Void Ark Tanks.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This is for you, Void Ark Tanks.

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Void Ark parties have no tanks; only crazy pullers trying to steal aggro from each other.
Fighting over aggro is cool for first boss, but no! "They see me tankin'; They hatin'!" They will spam RoH and BB whole day long. I am changing music to "Neverending story" each time this happens to feel more like i can carry on.

Oh, and when they finally steal aggro, they face boss to the party, so all could notice they did it. Not like using cooldowns or doing MT job. Playing like "I didn't expect i will have aggro :o so strange!"

should just give tanks tools to do their jobs early tbh. you're more likely going to run into a fully-geared-60 level-sync down to your first 15 sastasha and completely decimate your hate generation, under-geared tank or not. If Devs expect tanks to be tanks starting 15, just give them us tank stance at 15.

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Originally Posted by ashwich

you're more likely going to run into a fully-geared-60 level-sync down to your first 15 sastasha and completely decimate your hate generation, under-geared tank or not.

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That's just not the case.

Low lvl GLD tutorial:

On a boss:
Lead with shield lob
Repeat hate combo
FoF on cooldown

^ if you can't hold with this, update your gear.

If you're on trash and the DPS have split targets:
Flash -> Flash is about 40% better than fast blade -> savage blade. If you can hold a boss, you can hold trash. If you can't hold a boss, see boss tutorial above.

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Originally Posted by winsock

That's just not the case.

Low lvl GLD tutorial:

On a boss:
Lead with shield lob
Repeat hate combo
FoF on cooldown

^ if you can't hold with this, update your gear.

If you're on trash and the DPS have split targets:
Flash -> Flash is about 40% better than fast blade -> savage blade. If you can hold a boss, you can hold trash. If you can't hold a boss, see boss tutorial above.

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it's not a matter of method.

my point stands, there's no reason tanks shouldn't have basic tools when they're required to do their job starting lvl 15.

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Originally Posted by ashwich

it's not a matter of method.

my point stands, there's no reason tanks shouldn't have basic tools when they're required to do their job starting lvl 15.

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Like flash and SB? They already have the basic tools to do it.

There are a few good reasons to not give tanks tank stance right away:

Having that much threat scales enmity meter in such a way that it become hard to read. This means tanks, DPS, and healer could struggle to understand how it works.
DPS classes would also get very little information about their performance early on.

Tank's require very, very little healing as is. New tanks often forget to use defensive cooldowns. What happens to the existing and already very low healing requirements, if say, GLD has 20% dmg reduction and probably won't lose threat?

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Originally Posted by winsock

Like flash and SB? They already have the basic tools to do it.

There are a few good reasons to not give tanks tank stance right away:

Having that much threat scales enmity meter in such a way that it become hard to read. This means tanks, DPS, and healer could struggle to understand how it works.
DPS classes would also get very little information about their performance early on.

Tank's require very, very little healing as is. New tanks often forget to use defensive cooldowns. What happens to the existing and already very low healing requirements, if say, GLD has 20% dmg reduction and probably won't lose threat?

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tanks can't have tank things because enmity meter is hard to read. I don't even. healer job too easy when at that level? well it's 1 cure from 0 to full with or without tank stance.

Here's the relevant part of the discussion. This whole conversation is pertaining to encouraging newer players to try the tanking role. I can argue that you can't do anything you said nearly as well unless you're talking a level-synced down tank with proper accessories and gear. but I'm talking stepping into the role at 15 for the first time, you would've had nothing but the new tutorial gear (left side only) and MAYBE some under-level accessories, minimum secondary stats. I havn't seen a marauder for awhile, so maybe this is just a GLA problem. with the insanely low weapon dmg scaling for 1hand weapons, savage blade as only enmity generator other than flash. it's rough (especially considering a large portion of DF group consist of level-synced 60, which isn't a bad thing necessarily).

I'd love to prove my point by inviting you to tank a sastasha for me, but that's clearly not an option.

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Originally Posted by ashwich

there's no reason tanks shouldn't have basic tools when they're required to do their job starting lvl 15.

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Originally Posted by ashwich

savage blade as only enmity generator other than flash

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Found your problem.

You have a fundamentally flawed misunderstanding of the GLA hate combo. It goes

Flash > Flash > Flash > Flash > Fast Blade > Flash > Riot Blade > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Fast Blade > Riot Blade

There is no Savage Blade.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Found your problem.

You have a fundamentally flawed misunderstanding of the GLA hate combo. It goes

Flash > Flash > Flash > Flash > Fast Blade > Flash > Riot Blade > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Fast Blade > Riot Blade

There is no Savage Blade.

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I stand corrected. please nerf the overpowered flash

Yeah...It's really difficult to hold aggro during low levels, especially if you aren't a warrior with Overpower. GLD is the worst....flash does hardly anything LOL

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Originally Posted by winsock

Having that much threat scales enmity meter in such a way that it become hard to read. This means tanks, DPS, and healer could struggle to understand how it works.
DPS classes would also get very little information about their performance early on.

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This is where many people go wrong. the enmity meter is not a measure of performance. being number 2 on the threat list does not make you the top dps or any other misfounded belief.

what it does is likely make you the dps that never uses quelling strikes or other enmity reduction abilities until it's too late to be beneficial because if you're number 4 on the list you must be terrible.... or the dps that won't peel off the boss to deal with adds in case he's not number 2 when the adds are dead.

people already misread the enmity meter all the time thinking of it as some kind of performance measure..

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Flash > Flash > Flash > Flash > Fast Blade > Flash > Riot Blade > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Fast Blade > Riot Blade

There is no Savage Blade.

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Is this hyperbole? I can't tell via text. I never had to do this much flash before nor after the tank changes even with dps attacking random targets.. Also, are just specifically suggesting this method for mob packs or are you saying for bosses as well (as in, did the savage blade threat buff not eclipse using flash single target at lower levels)?

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

Is this hyperbole? I can't tell via text. I never had to do this much flash before nor after the tank changes even with dps attacking random targets.. Also, are just specifically suggesting this method for mob packs or are you saying for bosses as well (as in, did the savage blade threat buff not eclipse using flash single target at lower levels)?

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going back on previous posts, I think he's absolutely serious. This is a good work around for trash pulls. I'm not sure about single target boss tbh, it may be on par or better than your standard FB>SB in a 15 sastasha.

But if someone is encouraged to use bizarre methods like this to hold hate, I think it's time for ability order revision.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

Is this hyperbole? I can't tell via text. I never had to do this much flash before nor after the tank changes even with dps attacking random targets.. Also, are just specifically suggesting this method for mob packs or are you saying for bosses as well (as in, did the savage blade threat buff not eclipse using flash single target at lower levels)?

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At low levels before you have Rage of Halone or Shield Oath, this is the biggest threat generation you can manage as a paladin. So no, it's not hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by ashwich

going back on previous posts, I think he's absolutely serious. This is a good work around for trash pulls. I'm not sure about single target boss tbh, it may be on par or better than your standard FB>SB in a 15 sastasha.

But if someone is encouraged to use bizarre methods like this to hold hate, I think it's time for ability order revision.

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Neither is it bizarre. It's been this way since 2.0 launched. The reason it's looked down on is because Flash does no damage. That is: it doesn't fit the dps tanking meta. You know, that thing that's only applicable at Savage level raiding with a static. So of course you would follow it at level 15 in a pug dungeon...

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Originally Posted by Pells

At low levels before you have Rage of Halone or Shield Oath, this is the biggest threat generation you can manage as a paladin. So no, it's not hyperbole.

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I see... I have not had to resort to that much flash at any time before or after the changes pre-halone/shield oath, but I could understand if you're worried about aoe threat. Surely it's not better single target threat with the buff to savage blade, that was my main question.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

I see... I have not had to resort to that much flash at any time before or after the changes pre-halone/shield oath, but I could understand if you're worried about aoe threat. Surely it's not better single target threat with the buff to savage blade, that was my main question.

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Flash is 600 potency per GCD. Fast>Savage is 150+(3.5*200)=850, or 425 per GCD.

while this has been true since 2.0. and a viable solution. As Tsilyi mentioned above, GLA tanks has never needed to rely this heavily on flash in order to tank low level contents before. (I have leveled a GLA without crafted or pre-obtained gear twice pre 3.0, don't ask...)

Unless developers acknowledge this is the model for lower level tanks they intended, I think there is something to be fixed here. For how heavily hate generation is relying on shield oath in the current state of things, we sure are getting them pretty late. All workarounds aside, I think this is an area of improvement.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

This is where many people go wrong. the enmity meter is not a measure of performance. being number 2 on the threat list does not make you the top dps or any other misfounded belief.

what it does is likely make you the dps that never uses quelling strikes or other enmity reduction abilities until it's too late to be beneficial because if you're number 4 on the list you must be terrible.... or the dps that won't peel off the boss to deal with adds in case he's not number 2 when the adds are dead.

people already misread the enmity meter all the time thinking of it as some kind of performance measure..

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3 things

1) Who has emnity reduction abilities at low level? Anyone willing to admit quelling strikes being that high of a priority on their cc slots?

2) in what low level dungeon do adds/kill order actually matter? Many early boss battles are only extended by switching to adds or performing mechanics

3) While the emnity gauge isnt perfect, where do you suggest ppl get performance data in game? It isnt perfect, but there are also several situations where being #2 indicates that you're dps is the highest.

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Originally Posted by winsock

3 things

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the problem here is that ASSUMING we're talking reasonable situations where hate bar may reflect proportionally to damage. there's still no self-improvement value in the hate bar. it doesn't tell you how you're doing against how you were doing last time you were here, or how you were doing after you changed your rotation around, maybe you did worse, maybe you improved, you don't know.

All it tells you is that you MIGHT have generated more hate than the other DPS, which is pointless.

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Originally Posted by ashwich

healer job too easy when at that level? well it's 1 cure from 0 to full with or without tank stance.

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There are many pulls already that do not require a single heal. Giving tanks tank stance will only increase the number of fights that do not require any healing, and will reduce the number of heals needed in fights that currently require it.

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I can argue that you can't do anything you said nearly as well unless you're talking a level-synced down tank with proper accessories and gear. but I'm talking stepping into the role at 15 for the first time, you would've had nothing but the new tutorial gear (left side only) and MAYBE some under-level accessories, minimum secondary stats. I havn't seen a marauder for awhile, so maybe this is just a GLA problem. with the insanely low weapon dmg scaling for 1hand weapons, savage blade as only enmity generator other than flash. it's rough (especially considering a large portion of DF group consist of level-synced 60, which isn't a bad thing necessarily).

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I started a new char on a new for 3.2. I played both GLD and MRD frequently in low level dungeons, while both being level appropriate and in level appropriate gear. I had no problems.

That tutorial gear is dungeon-grade btw. It has truely never been easier to be prepared before entering dungeons

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I'd love to prove my point by inviting you to tank a sastasha for me, but that's clearly not an option.

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I'll I show you you're wrong if you'd like, under 2 conditions:

1) I'm not a new player so I cant meet the 'new player' requirement. Are you fine with that?

2) You not believing tanks can hold threat, only hurts you and the people who take your low level tanking advice. I gain no benefit by showing you this. I am willing to start a new char on a server we both agree on, provided you give me some sort of compensation for my time. Does 1mil Gil on adamantoise sound okay? If not what would you deem appropriate?

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Originally Posted by winsock

3) While the emnity gauge isnt perfect, where do you suggest ppl get performance data in game? It isnt perfect, but there are also several situations where being #2 indicates that you're dps is the highest.

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"Your dps is the highest". i am grammar nazi for your&you're in particular, nothing personal, really.

Now the core of quote.
You have parsers. They are forbidden, but this is how Reddit, Wiki, Google - wherever you get this info - is getting all those perfect rotations, tactics and data.

My DRG is item lvl 205. And i am always number two in threat generations, until i play with BLM or DRG on mains. Sometimes monks steal that place. Those 220 main dps classes cannot steal poor 205 lvl Yuni enmity place??? "You lie!" no i don't. Burst dmg for DRG in opening is savage. Good Draggon resistant to Derp mentality will make build up enmity in opening and hold it for at least longer while.

Your point 2 gave me cancer. Think about it. We are in thread "Low level tanks (pre tank stance) have a very hard time holding threat after the nerf". Which undergeared, maybe even sprouts, will shit on adds or kill order when they have tanking problems?

Adds coming - Low level tank will gently pull adds / place markers for kill order and ask party to make the fight gentle.

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Originally Posted by winsock

1) Who has emnity reduction abilities at low level? Anyone willing to admit quelling strikes being that high of a priority on their cc slots?

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o/

I do. It is hardly required but it is useful. A good player isn't simply determined by how good he or she is at hitting the raging strikes button, but by being aware of what may need to be required of them by each circumstance. At lower levels the damage bonus isn't that huge from a cooldown, but the raging strikes may allow me to aoe with minimal stress on a tank so they can, say in the case of a paladin, do damage to the mobs instead of having to flash more, or for the other tanks to use their stronger hitting single target attacks. Everyone wins.