Are there more tanks playing now?

I started a new char in a new world for 3.2

I've leveled WAR to ~52 and am really enjoying how the STR / VIT change has changed tanking, so far anyway. This first implementation may not be perfect. Other skills 'may' need adjusted at some point to compensate for things like lifesteal or what have you. Overall, to me it just feels like greater importance was placed on the 'tanking' side of the tanking role, which I don't think is a bad thing necessarily.

Side note/question: I'm not sure if it's my gear on the new char, but does the slashing debuff seem more effective than pre 3.2 at generating enmity for other tanks? I've had a few experiences with 'offtanks' in tank stance whose threat seems to skyrocket when the debuff was active.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

Really? I much preferred the opposite. A good DPS rides the hate line without actually ripping off you. And me allowing them to get that high (because I play DRK and my hate combo is herpes) was a sign that I was pushing the best DPS I could as well. Nothing depresses me more than when I go into a duty, do a couple PS combos and then go into my DPS rotation and nobody climbs past 1/4 of their aggro meters.

---

In most DF groups, I like to see how long I can ride the edge of the aggro line before somebody pulls a mob off of me. Even as DRK, I like the rush of seeing who can rip hate off of me...just because I'm bored and like to play out of Grit sometimes. I mean...If you can tank an entire dungeon in DPS stance barely losing hate to anyone, then you can tell who is the weaker link in your group...not the healer thats for sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

In most DF groups, I like to see how long I can ride the edge of the aggro line before somebody pulls a mob off of me. Even as DRK, I like the rush of seeing who can rip hate off of me...just because I'm bored and like to play out of Grit sometimes. I mean...If you can tank an entire dungeon in DPS stance barely losing hate to anyone, then you can tell who is the weaker link in your group...not the healer thats for sure.

---

I thought I was the only one thinking like that. If I remained in dps stance without spamming my aggro combo then to me dps is not up to speed. But I won't lie I love it when a dps puts me ato a challenge keeping hate. It keeps me active and on my feet.

I've stopped tanking pretty much. I liked being a meatshield that could hit back, now I'm just a meatshield. What attracted me to tanking in this game is now gone, so I've stopped tanking for the most part.

I'm sporadically logging in to give my retainers ventures and level my SMN job up with a few DF runs.

Once my subscription runs out, I'm not re-regging. I'm not playing a game when the developers clearly have such a disdain against tank players. If they can't figure out how to balance the game mechanics with a melee class like a tank doing decent damage, there's no point in paying any further. I'm tired of having DF runs waste huge amounts of my time because if the DPS are complete morons, even trash pulls take forever to clear.

When the developers finally get their act together and take the core frustration of playing a tank away -- that we can't deal decent damage -- then I'll come back.

I have decide to tank this cycle. My main job is pretty much a rotation for me for each cycle or two. WHM > BRD > DRG > PLD, sprinkle in BLM, MNK from time to time in the past.

I pulled my PLD out of hibernation a few months ago. Eventually it eclipsed the ilevels of my mains, WHM and SMN. It's now 208 and I'm about to spend my first tomestones of lore on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

In most DF groups, I like to see how long I can ride the edge of the aggro line before somebody pulls a mob off of me. Even as DRK, I like the rush of seeing who can rip hate off of me...just because I'm bored and like to play out of Grit sometimes. I mean...If you can tank an entire dungeon in DPS stance barely losing hate to anyone, then you can tell who is the weaker link in your group...not the healer thats for sure.

---

This is starting to sound dirty.

I still tank and continue tanking especially when there are new contents. In fact I use my PLD as a trailblazer until I know mechanics before I go Dps xD

Hard to want to tank because we wield huge weapons that should be doing major damage per swing. But uh we don't. And hard to call yourself a tank in itself if a lot of junk in HW dungeons hit hard and you are entirely reliant on a healer to maintain your tank status.

It's really telling when we just sit at 20-25k HP while we have NPC's like Aymeric cruising at a nice old 243k. And don't get me started on the bosses either.

I only truly feel like a tank whenever I run lvl 40 dungeons unsynced at 60. Otherwise it's use defensive skill so I don't die from Tankbuster move and let healer patch up all my missing health. There is little satisfaction in that entirely due to my thoughts that a tank if mitigating with their abilities should barely take any real damage at all and be able to withstand a heavy hit without the use of an ability. Otherwise I feel like every general encounter as a Tank class is one giant seesaw. It's so jaded and archaic. Really hard for me to enjoy.

And the blanket DPS nerf for all Tank classes made all 3 take a heavy hit. No matter what you say. DRK and WAR will just feel it more then the PLD will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

I've stopped tanking pretty much. I liked being a meatshield that could hit back, now I'm just a meatshield. What attracted me to tanking in this game is now gone, so I've stopped tanking for the most part.

---

No need to giveup so easily as when you are nearing ilvl240 numbers will be back to same and even more than it was before patch, even with small upgrades and seph weapons C&S is already critting 4k FC is 6.8k+ RA 3.8k so by the end of gearing cycle you will see good ol 9k+ FC's again.

PS: WAR can reach 49k HP in PvP zone if you pop both Thrills+Food and VIT pot while in Defiance, it just looks so damn badass!

IMO I enjoy tanking now...before I wasn't wearing enough STR accs or I was wearing to many STR accs...I wasn't doing enough dmg...my dmg was lower then the DRG...I started tanking cause I wanted something different from dps and that has finally happened lol and I tank a lot more now, I haven't ran into any enmity issues on my DRK yet so I guess I'm the minority in this case

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aomine1992

IMO I enjoy tanking now...before I wasn't wearing enough STR accs or I was wearing to many STR accs...I wasn't doing enough dmg...my dmg was lower then the DRG...I started tanking cause I wanted something different from dps and that has finally happened lol and I tank a lot more now, I haven't ran into any enmity issues on my DRK yet so I guess I'm the minority in this case

---

You as a tank will never outparse any good DPS.

Believe it or not, tanking is fairly easy to get into. BUT once you step into the world of raiding, 200dps more can mean a lot to clearing or wiping. Either you do 400dps or you do 800dps is by any means the player's choice. If you have 1 case of having to choose a tank for static spot, would you take someone that can just do 400dps OR you want to get the other one that can do 800dps? Choice is quite clear here.

I can say that in my FC we have a lot of people taking up tanking now that they don't have to worry about vit vs. strength and can keep it really streamlined. I have to keep my dps geared in case I'm not tanking now which hasn't happened in a while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synestra

No need to giveup so easily as when you are nearing ilvl240 numbers will be back to same and even more than it was before patch, even with small upgrades and seph weapons C&S is already critting 4k FC is 6.8k+ RA 3.8k so by the end of gearing cycle you will see good ol 9k+ FC's again.

PS: WAR can reach 49k HP in PvP zone if you pop both Thrills+Food and VIT pot while in Defiance, it just looks so damn badass!

---

And then when new content comes, we're back to square one again. By the time we're back up to our 3.1 numbers, those numbers will be weak compared to numbers we would have had without this change. They already are to comparably geared DPS now.

This change wasn't meant to be a temporary change, it has permanently crippled tank damage contribution. We will always be far behind DPS in comparable gear now.

Excessive HP doesn't tickle my fancy since it's essentially just more that healers have to heal. Good damage and self heals are what appeal to me, and both are things of the past now. Both are far more helpful than excessive health.

I'm not sure why people are saying it's all okay because we can just get up to our former ilvl 200 damage when we're at like ilvl 220. The nerf is still there. Our damage progression is pathetic now and compared to content and dps scaling, will never be anywhere near where it once was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I only truly feel like a tank whenever I run lvl 40 dungeons unsynced at 60. Otherwise it's use defensive skill so I don't die from Tankbuster move and let healer patch up all my missing health.

---

That's not being a tank, it's being a 1 man army.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

I'm not sure why people are saying it's all okay because we can just get up to our former ilvl 200 damage when we're at like ilvl 220. The nerf is still there. Our damage progression is pathetic now and compared to content and dps scaling, will never be anywhere near where it once was.

---

is the same when i ask myself why ppl want a class how have the double of defense, high HP and high damage at the same time, is a teamwork game, you can't be able to have 7 tank parties in any new or sync content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

That's not being a tank, it's being a 1 man army.

---

Being a one man army is a much greater feeling then hitting big numbers on a tank class will ever feel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Being a one man army is a much greater feeling then hitting big numbers on a tank class will ever feel.

---

Then you don't want to be a tank? Best go LOLDRG then, they wear better armor and do big numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Then you don't want to be a tank? Best go LOLDRG then, they wear better armor and do big numbers.

---

I want to be a tank that can survive more then 1 tankbuster without the aid of a healer. If I want numbers I can go straight back to BLM. And I've seen the numbers of DRG and have no interest in "Monk for Dummies".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I want to be a tank that can survive more then 1 tankbuster without the aid of a healer. If I want numbers I can go straight back to BLM. And I've seen the numbers of DRG and have no interest in "Monk for Dummies".

---

So you want to be a tank that requires absolutely no healing for 45 seconds or so?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

So you want to be a tank that requires absolutely no healing for 45 seconds or so?

---

More like 20. 45 seconds is a little much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

...

---

So bacially you want to do same numbers as DPS jobs but now that you cant outparse them tanking suddenly became boring? I really cannot graps this mentality specially now that tank skillcap went trought the roof, STR tanking was easymode because you could sit in DPS stance 24/7 after initial pull while forgetting enmity even existed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I want to be a tank that can survive more then 1 tankbuster without the aid of a healer.

---

i am a healer who wants something to do too c.c,,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synestra

So bacially you want to do same numbers as DPS jobs but now that you cant outparse them tanking suddenly became boring? I really cannot graps this mentality specially now that tank skillcap went trought the roof, STR tanking was easymode because you could sit in DPS stance 24/7 after initial pull while forgetting enmity even existed.

---

When will people learn....

Before 3.2, tanks could only come close to outparsing bad dps. Tanks could only straight up outparse dirt awful dps.

And by the way, no, STR tanking was not easy mode. STR tanking made popping CDs at critical moments and balancing their cooldowns that much more important. STR tanking was not "just dps stance and go crazy", as you seem to believe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

STR tanking made popping CDs at critical moments and balancing their cooldowns that much more important.

---

Last time I checked, the cooldown rotation against spike damage doesn't care that you wear VIT or STR, since it's based of the boss' pattern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Last time I checked, the cooldown rotation against spike damage doesn't care that you wear VIT or STR, since it's based of the boss' pattern.

---

I know that.

Doesn't change the fact that lower hp means you're on a tighter HP budget though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

Doesn't change the fact that lower hp means you're on a tighter HP budget though.

---

Yes, but what you need to realize is that this HP budget is not for you to manage...but for your healer.

Surviving as a STR tank doesn't mean that you're a "good" tank, but that you have a good healer that can keep you alive with a lower safety net.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Last time I checked, the cooldown rotation against spike damage doesn't care that you wear VIT or STR, since it's based of the boss' pattern.

---

I think that part was being emphasized because of the popular belief that STR tanks are so tunnel visioned that they don't bother with defensive cooldowns.

Some people act like the term "strength tank" is a synonym for "bad tank."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, but what you need to realize is that this HP budget is not for you to manage...but for your healer.

Surviving as a STR tank doesn't mean that you're a "good" tank, but that you have a good healer that can keep you alive with a lower safety net.

---

False.

It's for both to manage. The tank needs to know what they need to do to survive large incoming damage with a low health pool, and when to do it. The healer needs to be ready to heal them back up asap.

If the STR tank can't pop cooldowns correctly, the best healer in the world won't be able to save them if they get taken down before a heal can be thrown out, or if they get 1 shotted. Especially with the slight lag involved with instant heals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ragology

Some people act like the term "strength tank" is a synonym for "bad tank."

---

And some think the same of VIT tanks :p
But in the end, it doesn't change how you play your tank...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

The tank needs to know what they need to do to survive large incoming damage with a low health pool, and when to do it.

---

Ok, then, tell me what a STR tank have to do more than a VIT tank ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

And some think the same of VIT tanks :p
But in the end, it doesn't change how you play your tank...

Ok, then, tell me what a STR tank have to do more than a VIT tank ?

---

Manage cooldowns more carefully?

Less HP = less cushion for cooldown usage mistakes.

STR tanks also had to stance dance more efficiently to maximize their DPS, since prior to this change, VIT tanks did negligibly more damage with stance dancing vs STR tanks and they were better off just tanking and letting the healer dps more.

It's common sense really. A STR tank maximizing their DPS AND attempting to tank heavy damage had to balance both, while someone only concerned with tanking only had to focus on one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

Manage cooldowns more carefully?

---

That's not an answer.
For example, let's say you tank A1S, what do you really do differently when you wear STR instead of VIT ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

STR tanks also had to stance dance more efficiently to maximize their DPS, since prior to this change, VIT tanks did negligibly more damage with stance dancing vs STR tanks and they were better off just tanking and letting the healer dps more.

---

Again, no. Your DPS number is just higher, but you play the job the same. Wether you wear STR or VIT, you have to know the flow to determine when you can allow not having your tank stance.

Saying VIT tanks don't play the job don't maximize their DPS is as bad a misconception as saying STR tanks don't tank properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's not an answer.
For example, let's say you tank A1S, what do you really do differently when you wear STR instead of VIT ?

---

That is absolutely the right answer. A tank with lower hit points has to use their CD's much more effectively and smarter than a tank that has a higher hp total. Both specs using the proper CD, Taking the hit that puts you at 1k hp and dying to the next auto attack is worse than having a 5K buffer after the big hit. A STR tank might have to pop an extra CD is Conva or Thrill of Battle that they might need to save for the next tank buster.

I was under the impression some Tanks went Str for the deeps or skilled players were doing it and people bandwagoned, liked being challenged to the point they only just wanted enough HP just to get through mechanics/tankbusters and to achieve faster clear times as well as decrease the amount of healing required from outside sources and in a way from the Tank perspective you by virtue heal more with self heals like Soul Eater and Equilibrium by having less HP.

Now though all Tanks do less damage, are expected to sit in Tank stance and let everyone else do all the work while they soak hits which can be pretty boring. In effect both Warrior and Dark Knight were nerfed but PLD is pretty much "Well I can't miss what I never really had".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

That is absolutely the right answer. A tank with lower hit points has to use their CD's much more effectively and smarter than a tank that has a higher hp total. Both specs using the proper CD, Taking the hit that puts you at 1k hp and dying to the next auto attack is worse than having a 5K buffer after the big hit.

---

Still no. Having more HP doesn't mean you can afford to take a hit without proper mitigation. It's not because I have more HP that I won't use Rampart some time before Hypercompressed Plasma to keep my HP higher before and mitigate the following attacks too.
What is true, is that a VIT tank have more rooms for errors, but it's still errors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

A STR tank might have to pop an extra CD is Conva or Thrill of Battle that they might need to save for the next tank buster.

---

So, you have a real example where the rotation is different depending on what you wear ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

....

---

Umm....it is an answer actually, as Deceptus just explained differently to you.

Before this change, VIT tanks DIDN'T maximize their dps. How can you say they did when they specced for VIT, not STR, in the first place? They could have perhaps still stance danced, but the DPS gain from it would be extremely neglible, especially when you realize that a tank could have specced STR and done the same exact thing. It would be so minor that just staying in tank stance and letting the healers get some extra dps in would be a superior group choice.

A STR tank was more vulnerable without proper, tight cooldown usage than a VIT tank....that was just a fact, I don't know how to say it any differently.

You asked what a STR tank HAS to do more than a VIT tank, and that's your answer. You may not consider it an answer since it doesn't agree with what you believe, but it still is a very appropriate answer.

Also, saying a VIT tank doesn't maximize their dps is actually correct, while saying a STR tank doesn't tank properly is not.

A STR tank properly using cooldowns could survive, and therefore tank properly. A VIT tank would not have been maximizing their dps, as speccing for VIT would already make that impossible. A STR tank can tank and maximize their dps at the same time, while a VIT tank cripples their dps with their stat choice but can also tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

Umm....it is an answer actually, as Deceptus just explained differently to you.

---

And neither of you could provide a real example. That's why I say it's not an answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

Before this change, VIT tanks DIDN'T maximize their dps. How can you say they did when they specced for VIT, not STR, in the first place?

---

Because maxing one's DPS is more a matter of how you play than what you wear. And you gain exactly the same rate of damage, again, wether you wear VIT or STR. Missing between 20% and 30% DPS is huge, whatever your number is in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

A STR tank was more vulnerable without proper, tight cooldown usage than a VIT tank....that was just a fact, I don't know how to say it any differently.

---

Again, since fights are pretty much scripted from start to finish, cooldowns rotation is already determined. So, once again, give me a real example where your CD usage would be different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Ok, then, tell me what a STR tank have to do more than a VIT tank ?

---

I answered this question several times already, but I'll do so one more time for you at the bottom of this post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because maxing one's DPS is more a matter of how you play than what you wear. And you gain exactly the same rate of damage, again, wether you wear VIT or STR. Missing between 20% and 30% DPS is huge, whatever your number is in the first place.

---

Is that so? So you're essentially saying that a STR tank and a VIT tank doing the same thing wouldn't have much of a difference in DPS prior to this change? That....says a lot about your understanding of things O.o


And I've already answered your original question several times. You asked:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Ok, then, tell me what a STR tank have to do more than a VIT tank ?

---

Here's my answer once again: A STR tank has to be more careful with CD usage since errors are much more punishing than for a VIT tank. A STR tank has to be more careful with stance dancing. A STR tank drops huge numbers or risks dying more if they mess up stance dancing or cooldown usage because of how much of an influence STR had over VIT on damage and because lower HP leaves less room for damage. If a VIT tank messes up, their damage loss is negligible since their outgoing damage is already extremely low due to speccing VIT anyways, and their survival chances are higher. They can afford to be more loose with their DPS and their cooldowns, because their DPS is already extremely low and not contributing much, especially compared to what a STR tank would be contributing, and because they have higher health to reduce to impact of error.

I never said their optimal rotations are different, so don't try to cop out or manipulate readers into thinking I'm saying something I'm not. Our discussion started about whether STR tanking is easier or more difficult than VIT tanking due to cooldown usage importance for both, and I have given you your answer for that. Don't change the subject.

He asked what STR tanks have to do that VIT tanks don't have to do in reference to me saying to someone that cooldown usage for STR tanks is more important than it is for VIT tanks, and that's the question I debated and answered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

I answered this question several times already, but I'll do so one more time for you at the bottom of this post.

---

No, you still not. You gave a "theory". You still didn't provide a real example, a proof, as STR tank do play differently.
I've looked at a lot of guides for hard content, and not a single time did I see "If you wear VIT, do this, if you wear STR, do that".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

Is that so? So you're essentially saying that a STR tank and a VIT tank doing the same thing wouldn't have much of a difference in DPS prior to this change? That....says a lot about your understanding of things O.o

---

No, I'm saying that if proper rotation and proper stance dancing can increase your DPS by 30%, it will give 30%, whatever you wear. Of course, the actual numbers will be different, but so would they if you have a gap in weapon and armor.
When judging a rotation, we judge how much you do in regards to your maximum output for your gear.