Why is "It's something to do" apparently a valid defense?

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

A lot of negativity in this thread... I ask the OP and everyone agreeing with the OP. Where will you go?

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Play other Final Fantasy games
Better ones.

Amazing how the Gold Saucer in Final Fantasy VII still entertains me til this day, where as the one in XIV a majority of people only go there for their cacpot tickets, cause everything there is just crap.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Is there any other MMOs that even compare to what we currently have?

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No. But guess what! That is fine too. There are other games out there. And if there are not games that can give what I want, there is plenty of other stuff out in the world to do that's fun. You make it sound like you gotta stay subbed to a MMO to live.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Hmm, exp bar for the relic. It will start at ilevel 1 and while killing enemies it gain exp until it level up to the highest ilevel of the current update.
around 100 000 enemies to bring it from ilevel 209 to 210

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I didnt mean an exp bar, just let the ilvl increase automatically with every patch

I want to know what kind of QA process they go through for these things they implement. I really doubt there is any at all...

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Originally Posted by aurace1095

People post here in the hopes that their complaints will be passed on to the devs so they can see an actual change, not to dissaude "white knights" from liking the game. The problem is, we're bringing up (in our eyes) valid issues / complaints, and people are just saying "no this game is perfect go play something else if you don't like it". While they may feel that way, aren't people who are dissatisfied also entitled to have their voices be heard, especially by the devs? They want to appeal to as many players as possible, and if something isn't resonating with the players, shouldn't we try to let them know?

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Yes they are but at the same time, since the conversation has been created, its only fair that people with differing opinions put in their input too. SE has to balance to make a game all of us enjoy and usually with conflicting feedback. Its only fair that all parties have their say and frankly its just as much the people who are unhappy who are being dismissive of people who are putting in alternative feedback.

Perfect example is the fact that when I made my viewpoint earlier in this thread, the response was 'well you just haven't played for long'. Its true that I only started playing seriously in 2.4 but at the same time, being unable to work for most of the first half of the year, I have clocked up well over 2000 hours by this point. Ive played a lot. I have every class at 60, 3 desynthing skills at over 120, all the beast tribes maxed out and everything except the EX versions of the patch primals, the EX HW primals and the last 3 turns of coil done. Oh and 3 Zetas.

Lets also not pretend that people who try to start positive threads tend to have angry negative posters move in pretty quick, particularly at the moment.

ALL feedback is relevant. We should be respecting of that and while its fine to argue against anothers opinion logically, simply trying to dismiss their argument by calling them 'fanboys' or 'white knights' or alternatively using arguments to suggest their opinion is invalid is as bad as someone with complaints being dismissed.

So raise issues and make constructive feedback by all means. Just try and respect that others might not agree with you. Hell, the majority might not agree. I've found myself in that situation plenty of times in games before.

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Originally Posted by Nashred

Daidem is something new? Really it is nothing new, it is hunts you take a airship too. I think it was a neat idea that showed even more flaws but I do not want to get into that.

I am going to end it here because we are going in circles and you are entitled to your opinion, Actually when I first quoted you I thought we were agreeing... I would rather have less content and have better content that is new and not recycled content.

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Don't forget to mention a lot of this so called content is from 1.0 and not redesigned at all . Ishguard is 1.0 content were it was suppose to end but never did because the game flopped. Couldn't agree with you more they promised new content but have never delivered it at all . The promised so much with 2.0 but we have not seen any of the world content that they said would come. Seems like they are just seeing how much money they can get with the same recycled formula before they decide to experiment .

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Jesus, are people not allowed to just enjoy something without being criticised for it? Some of you people are so rude just because you're unhappy

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We are unhappy bout a service we are paying for, so we complain, i already paid 6 months of gametime (3 months left) and have NOTHING FUN or new to do but chat. Who are u to criticise us? trying to be the devil´s lawer? 2 years of the same formula over and over, ppl get tired. SE is being lazy and lacking of fun ideas.

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

We are unhappy bout a service we are paying for, so we complain, i already paid 6 months of gametime (3 months left) and have NOTHING FUN or new to do but chat. Who are u to criticise us? trying to be the devil´s lawer? 2 years of the same formula over and over, ppl get tired. SE is being lazy and lacking of fun ideas.

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I'm not referring to people who are unhappy. I'm referring to people who can't accept that some people actually like the new relic and feel the need to force their opinions on us. People are allowed to be tired and dislike it but people are also allowed to enjoy it without being called a white knight.

Also to others, some of you are being called "whiners" because that's quite literally what you're doing and not providing any constructive feedback whatsoever. There's a difference between expressing your opinion and then just insulting others and crying about it.

So yeah, I think a lot of FFXIV are masochists lol doing this relic sh8

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Also to others, some of you are being called "whiners" because that's quite literally what you're doing and not providing any constructive feedback whatsoever. There's a difference between expressing your opinion and then just insulting others and crying about it.

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I don't see much of a point in providing constructive feedback because I highly doubt any of the dev team or staff are looking at these topics at all, and if they are none of the feedback will be accepted. Realistically, the relic will be nerfed. It'll just be in 3.45 or something when there are two more even worse steps.

If I were to suggest something, it would just to be literally half all of the item/tome requirements.

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Originally Posted by BossEpoch

I don't see much of a point in providing constructive feedback because I highly doubt any of the dev team or staff are looking at these topics at all, and if they are none of the feedback will be accepted. Realistically, the relic will be nerfed. It'll just be in 3.45 or something when there are two more even worse steps.

If I were to suggest something, it would just to be literally half all of the item/tome requirements.

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Yes, but as far as I'm aware, you're not one of the people making comments to people who enjoy it. I respect the fact you're having intelligent argument instead of just spouting "white knight" :P

People aren't being called white knights because they enjoy doing the quest, but because of their attempts to belittle or dismiss genuine criticisms of the content that come up.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

People aren't being called white knights because they enjoy doing the quest, but because of their attempts to belittle or dismiss genuine criticisms of the content that come up.

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Some people are counteracting these arguments validly and are still being called a white knight. Or better yet, merely said they enjoy the content and have been criticised.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Some people are counteracting these arguments validly and are still being called a white knight. Or better yet, merely said they enjoy the content and have been criticised.

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How so? The only counterarguments I've seen in defence of SE's unashamed copy/pasting of gamecode without any creativity has been:

- SE can't create new stuff without money (as if they're not getting sub and cash shop money, also that didn't stop them doing stuff like LoV that I'm sure wasn't heavily demanded in comparison to the relic)

- People are just upset they can't get the relic immediately and should just unsub (the common, weak argument when people's complaint isn't about it being a grind, but the way it was implemented)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Creating content takes time, and this game has far more content than FFXI in the same span of years. Dynamis was created in 2005, three years after initial launch. ARR was launched...3 years ago, we have Diadem.
And you can't count 1.0 since ARR was created back from scratch.

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I don't think it's fair to compare the Diadem to Dynamis. I wish the Diadem was like Dynamis.

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Originally Posted by Sardonia

So if they would have created 10 new trials that are just as difficult as A4S that would need to be done for the relic, would you all be happy? I can just assume the boards would be this is too hard, need to nerf, etc, etc.

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That is an extremely poor comparison, and you know it. Are you saying that back when we were upgrading our relic to zenith, that Titan HM was comparable to T5? I truly hope not, because as far as difficulty goes, there was absolutely no comparison. If you recall, most complaints about Titan HM were not due to his difficulty, but because of latency issues. Quite frankly, back then the instance servers were BAD. That, combined with a fight that introduced perma-death mechanics, and you have a recipe for disaster. Seriously though, don't compare the top-tier raid content to primal content; there's just no comparison.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I don't think it's fair to compare the Diadem to Dynamis. I wish the Diadem was like Dynamis.

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While I wish it was like dynamis too, i do think it is a fair comparison because I think it is exactly what SE was going after with Diadem except it was a fail.. I think people have been asking for something like Dynamis and this was SE attempt at it but just with more recycled content like hunts. What was Dynamis really? It was farming, farming gear and currency to upgrade that gear. That part SE got right, the part they got wrong is Dynamis was fun and challenging and new at the time. It also got wrong the part that the gear you got was epic. FFXIV suffers from no gear is epic. The gear was worth working for and spending the time one and was good for a long time not outdated with the next patch.

I do not think people dont want grind, I think they want grind that is worth doing or grind that is different from the last grind. If the relic was truly a much better weapon people would not care so much. If Diadem gave truly epic gear people wouldn't care as much how bad it is. Yea some people are never happy but this was epic fail, it is not a few people on the message boards un happy.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

How so? The only counterarguments I've seen in defence of SE's unashamed copy/pasting of gamecode without any creativity has been:

- SE can't create new stuff without money (as if they're not getting sub and cash shop money, also that didn't stop them doing stuff like LoV that I'm sure wasn't heavily demanded in comparison to the relic)

- People are just upset they can't get the relic immediately and should just unsub (the common, weak argument when people's complaint isn't about it being a grind, but the way it was implemented)

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Or people just enjoy it and don't want it changing? I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. Why can't we simply enjoy something? It's a counter argument in itself. Some of us like it, some of us don't.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Or people just enjoy it and don't want it changing? I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. Why can't we simply enjoy something? It's a counter argument in itself. Some of us like it, some of us don't.

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Those people dont have to worry now do they because the old content will be there even if they bring something new and if you want to run WP 1000 more times you certainly can.

The real question is why are you afraid of something new or new content that you dont want it?

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Originally Posted by BossEpoch

Words.

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The people who use this argument, (such as myself even on occasion), aren't necessarily using it as an argument saying "the game is better than ever and this content adds so much that it should draw other players in". Said people are using it as an argument for two reasons. 1) Many people have been using the exact opposite argument of "there's nothing to do" as the reason why they leave the game these past few months, and 2) The people who use this argument are the ones who love the game as a whole and spending time with their friends on it, so they're just happy to have more incentive to run content and have a goal to work towards. They're not bored with the game entirely like you seem to imply, they're just out of personal goals, which this relic gives them.....

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Or people just enjoy it and don't want it changing?

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When HW launched, did ARR dungeons disappear? No, so why would SE adding new content concern them if the older content they like running is still around?

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I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. Why can't we simply enjoy something? It's a counter argument in itself. Some of us like it, some of us don't.

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I don't have an issue with people liking it. I liked it too... back when I was doing it under 2 years ago. I do take issue with SE repackaging that very same content then trying to present it as something new. That's an insult to the players intelligence.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Or people just enjoy it and don't want it changing? I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. Why can't we simply enjoy something? It's a counter argument in itself. Some of us like it, some of us don't.

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Would you really mind if SE added actual content related to the relic (quest and specific bosses) or made improvements to the game design of FFXIV ?

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Would you really mind if SE added actual content related to the relic (quest and specific bosses) or made improvements to the game design of FFXIV ?

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I didn't once say I'm against new content. People are turning this around again. All I'm saying is that some people enjoy the new relic and don't have a problem with it. Square can, and will, add more new content, it doesn't have to be in relation to the relic.

Of course I'm not against new content, that's just silly. What I am against is people using the fact its old content as an argument to belittle people's opinions who DO enjoy it.

Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not good with wording. :p

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

I didn't once say I'm against new content. People are turning this around again. All I'm saying is that some people enjoy the new relic and don't have a problem with it. Square can, and will, add more new content, it doesn't have to be in relation to the relic.

Of course I'm not against new content, that's just silly. What I am against is people using the fact its old content as an argument to belittle people's opinions who DO enjoy it.

Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not good with wording. :p

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This seems more of "if you don't agree with me, something is wrong with you" type debate going on here, Clearly if people do not like this grind and the way it's done, you're not allowed to.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

This seems more of "if you don't agree with me, something is wrong with you" type debate going on here, Clearly if people do not like this grind and the way it's done, you're not allowed to.

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I am against the people who can't accept that some enjoy the relic. If you don't like it, awesome! I don't care! That's fine!

I mean, the majority of the people even acting that way are the ones who dislike the relic and have something against the people that do. The only time ive argued with someone's opinion is when they say things like "this is not content", and remind them that actually, anything inside FFXIV is content, whether they want to do it or not.

Add horizontal options as well as vertical ones, add more dam raid bosses and trials and more engaging content , not something like this drivel and then maybe the complaints will stop.

I know I for one would stop complaining if


1. They took out the stupid raid timer and added 10-15 bosses in ONE raid instance like Vanilla, BC, Wotlk, Cata, and MoP in wow with trash included that can drop rare stuff or even mounts. The raids in this game are one hit wonder loot bosses, more like primals. The raiding isnt even raiding. Give me back my raids. Most hardcore friends of mine REFUSE to play this game because sadly, your one hit wonder primal boss fights are not raids and they refuse to play a game like that.

2. They stopped limiting us into the ground just so we are forced to buy extra retainers. I am paying a subscription. I should be allowed to mail my alts, transfer as much gil as I want between them and have twice as much space per character as I have now without paying extra. This is the ONLY subscription based game where we MUST pay extra for extra space.

3. Take out the HQ crafting requirements from the relic. This relic should be obtainable with TIME invested only. If you are going to force those of us who refuse to run your so called raids into having to use crafters to get high end gear then you had better start requiring all of the hardcore raiders to do so as well. Make their weapons and armor start requiring HQ specialty crafting only items to get said weapon or armor and see how they like it. If you are unwilling to do that SE then STOP punishing one playstyle and not the others.


You do that and I guarantee you that this game will become the new wow.

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Originally Posted by BossEpoch

I've seen the term used very often when people leap to the defense of the new relics, imo it's kinda weak, and if you're that desperate for 'something to do' in game you should probably take a break.

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Because there is nothing else to do.

--> log in
--->spend 2 hours clearing out as1/2/throdan
laugh at as3
---> log out and play WoW until next week.

Honestly the only reason I log in is cause of my friends. The game lost my interest long ago.

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Originally Posted by Madjames

They took out the stupid raid timer ...
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3. Take out the HQ crafting requirements from the relic....

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A few comments as a follow up:

1. Rare items and/or mounts did not start popping up from raids for quite some time. I do like the fact that if you are 20 levels higher than older raids you can almost solo them now. As for raid timers -- for most of WoW's raids, there was a weekly timeout for repetition -- you could only kill a boss once for loot over the week.

2. With two retainers, I have more bag space available than for the first 5 years I played WoW, starting in Burning Crusade. Every F2P game out there charges for more bag space in one way or another, even the ones that have subscriptions [personal knowledge after purchasing inventory space in SWTOR two weeks ago, while subscribed to the game]. I'd prefer having 4 of the 8 retainers be free though.

3. The original relic required HQ crafting AND melding of materia. It wouldn't bother me at all if they ditch such requirements for 3.x. Just be aware that for many expansions, all raiders in WoW HAD to have some crafting skill to make higher-end gear or add gems with stats [Blacksmith Bracers come to mind] in order to raid 'correctly'. It's not an idea limited to FFXIV.

The grass may look greener, but that's generally just a trick of the light.

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Originally Posted by LaurelinKementari

Live report from FF XIV forums! This is Laurelin Kementari for Independant News, here to give you an update on the developping situation concerning the 3.15 relic discussions! Latest report suggest that forum member Hellboy-sa made a dive towards the point but missed it in an absolutely spectacular fashion. The point sailed over his head and was last reported going into orbit around Jupiter. We will continue to monitor the situation and bring you the latest developments! This was Laurelin Kementari, back to the studio!

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This just made my whole f****** month!

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

I didn't once say I'm against new content. People are turning this around again. All I'm saying is that some people enjoy the new relic and don't have a problem with it. Square can, and will, add more new content, it doesn't have to be in relation to the relic.

Of course I'm not against new content, that's just silly. What I am against is people using the fact its old content as an argument to belittle people's opinions who DO enjoy it.

Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not good with wording. :p

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And what prevent you exactly to go run that old content you enjoy so much without the need to complete the relic, if relic was implemented on new content ?

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Whilst it's great that you're enjoying yourself, your join date implies you haven't been playing all that long.

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Does my join date give me the credibility you're seeking? Does my tenure in game allow me to properly enjoy this game? Because I do enjoy this game. Are there things I don't like? Of course. Do I mind the relic grind? Nope. I understand that the relic is -only- a means to reward players for repopulating unused content. They'll add new content in 3.2. And before you barrage me with "you'd rather a humongous grind of old content instead of new content!?!?" -- No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the -RELIC- is a grind of old content. Always has been, always will be. New content will always come, every 3 months or so.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Because the fact that there are still people who are having fun makes those people's angry forum tirades look meaningless, so they have to come into threads like these and try to convince people they aren't really having fun in the hopes they can drive people away from the game in order to justify their own opinions as "facts."

That's why they can't simply take a break without putting people down on the forums first.

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And then they call people White Knights for having the audacity to say they enjoy something that SE put into the game.

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

And then they call people White Knights for having the audacity to say they enjoy something that SE put into the game.

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I've only ever seen people who have the attitude of "You aren't allowed to complain about X because I enjoy it" get called White Knights, because that's what they are, the problem with White Knights is that they destroy constructive discussion, you are allowed to enjoy relic and put forward constructive discussion, and that doesn't make you you a white knight. The same goes for the opposite end of the spectrum with people who say "You aren't allowed to enjoy X because I don't like it" without any kind of constructive feedback.

Personally I see some issues with relic, but for the most part it is fine except for the crafting part (namely that it isn't a grind, it is a gate), and I respect anyone who disagrees, and invite anyone to challenge and discuss my points.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

And what prevent you exactly to go run that old content you enjoy so much without the need to complete the relic, if relic was implemented on new content ?

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Because the relic isn't implemented with new content and I really don't care about the fact. I am fine with the way it is. Is that okay or do I have to want it changing because others don't like it?

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Because the relic isn't implemented with new content and I really don't care about the fact. I am fine with the way it is. Is that okay or do I have to want it changing because others don't like it?

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You didn't answer my question.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

You didn't answer my question.

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Because your question has been asked to favour your argument either way purely because I enjoy the content. If the relic was implemented on new content, I wouldn't care either and would most likely enjoy it. The fact is - it's not. It's already been implemented on old content. I am happy with that and wouldn't want it changing now it's implemented.

Who said anything was preventing me from running old content? Now I've just got a reason to.

I don't see why people who enjoy the current content need to provide you with reasons why in the first place. You are the people who want it changing and need to sway Square if so, not us.

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If the relic was implemented on new content, I wouldn't care either and would most likely enjoy it.

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Yeah that's basically what I wanted to hear.

You might be easy to please (I sure do envy you on that aspect) but do not forget that it isn't the case for a lot of people here. Maybe it would be also in your interest if some things were changed.

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Who said anything was preventing me from running old content? Now I've just got a reason to.

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If you needed a reason to go back to the content, then maybe that content may not be as fun as you would like us to think.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

Yeah that's basically what I wanted to hear.

You might be easy to please (I sure do envy you on that aspect) but do not forget that it isn't the case for a lot of people here.



If you needed a reason to go back to the content, then maybe that content may not be as fun as you would like us to think.

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I'm not forgetting that. I don't know why people think I have a problem with others disliking the relic, it's when people think their opinion is more valid than mine because their's in the majority, and can't just let us enjoy it.

Okay, reword, it gives me more of a reason to.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I've only ever seen people who have the attitude of "You aren't allowed to complain about X because I enjoy it" get called White Knights...

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If only that were true.

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Originally Posted by Sardonia

You tell me what else has changed in other games? Expansions usually increase with new zones, etc. Expansions are typically built on the core of the existing game. Again it just seems people want a new game every expansion/patch.

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Well, to beat a dead horse...FFXI. And in particular, Wings of the Goddess. It introduced basically the same world...in the past. While that's not really anything new, Campaign certainly was. Beastmen would attack settlements/bases at random intervals, and in LARGE numbers, and you would have to team up with your fellow city-players to fend them off, and it wasn't easy. Depending on how well you performed, you obtained tokens you could turn in for some pretty sweet rewards. In addition, there was a ranking system for cities; the city who warded off the beastmen the best gained benefits for it's players. It was innovative. It was everything FFXIV is not atm.