Lowball estimate is that SE is raking in 8-10 million dollars a month from subscriptions alone (based on the most recent estimates of 800K active paying characters, which probably spiked a lot in the last few weeks when people came back.)Quote:
Originally Posted by kuma_aus
To cough up 10 million gil in cash shop revenue, then everything not nailed down in the game would be for sale on the cash shop instead.
Whats with people hating F2P?
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11-24-2015, 11:44 PMCatwho
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11-26-2015, 09:48 PMAtoli^If SE is fine with Gil instead of Dollars, F2P might not be too bad..:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwho
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12-02-2015, 04:12 AMSaccharinQuote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
they put the most coveted things on the cash shops. First we had the odin mount, then we had the Scion outfits. How many threads have we had that asked for Minfillia outfits and hair. Countless. They even put unique dyes on the shop. these days it's what will people pay for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
These might be cosmetic but as we've seen with glamours cosmetic is content these days and the best is now for sale - only for sale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentToughie
League of Legends, while not my type of game is hugely successful and even more profitable than WoW (now).Quote:
Originally Posted by StrejdaTom
It's also a MOBA not an MMORPG. -
12-02-2015, 04:14 AMkarateorangutangAgreed, but i think he meant small in the terms of sheer volume of code. LoL has lots of characters, but very little in the terms of maps size and design, quests, and pve programming. It's small by comparison that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saccharin
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12-02-2015, 04:29 AMAshkendorYour original post said we were going toward a "cash shop heavy model," which implies that it's moving beyond cosmetic items into other categories. An example of a cash shop heavy model would be a game that offers exp boost scrolls, extra character slots, costumes with stats, enhancement protection items, and access to premium areas along with the cosmetic items like mounts and dyes. Everything we have in the cash shop is staying in one category - cosmetic. The dyes aren't even remotely unique anymore so that's a completely moot point. I've gotten more metallic dye than I know what to do with from retainer ventures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saccharin
I agree with you that cosmetic items are content, but this is an entirely subjective statement. We have a lot of good looking glamours in game. I wouldn't take a Thancred cosplay over a Thavnarian Bolero set or a High House set, for example. Some people may have wanted Minfilia's set but I personally don't care for it, and wouldn't have purchased it even when I had a female avatar.Quote:
These might be cosmetic but as we've seen with glamours cosmetic is content these days and the best is now for sale - only for sale.
I think Sleipnir is one fugly horse and refuse to purchase him. I would rather ride... well, basically anything else. I'm sure there's people that don't particularly like the new Magitek recolors, either. I personally have 35 mounts to choose from right now, none of which were purchased from the cash shop. I still have to do a couple more days of Vanu dailies to earn the Sanuwa, 100+ duties to earn the Panther, and earn another 300+ commendations to get the Fat Chocobo reskin. There's way more items available ingame than there are in the cash shop, which doesn't really support your argument that we're moving toward a cash shop heavy model. -
12-02-2015, 04:39 AMseraf
I don't hate F2P in concept but every single F2P MMORPG that I've played has been very reliant on Pay2Win cash shop stuff to entice players to buy from it.
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12-02-2015, 04:43 AMStrejdaTomThat's exactly what I meant (also my second post in this thread says so).Quote:
Originally Posted by karateorangutang
MOBA game has one or a few maps, one hero per month and that's it. In my opinion MMORPG requires much more money, staff and also financial risk (developement costs).
I think it is impossible to introduce F2P MMO that wouldn't end up P2W and would still have enough money to introduce new content in the way FFXIV does it.
Most F2P MMOs just introduce new stuff to cash shop and one huge patch once a year. That's not my idea of fun. -
12-02-2015, 05:46 AMCGMidlanderIt's not just your opinion; it's fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by StrejdaTom
The development costs for MOBAs is more or less limited to just balancing and adding characters, and making skins.
They're very limited in scope compared to an MMORPG. (e.g. Crafting/gathering systems, PvE/PvP combat systems, Minigames, Quest lines, Story, Instances, World design...etc.) -
12-02-2015, 06:21 AMSnugglesD
Here's the real problem that most are missing: MMOs all strive to succeed with a subscription model. F2p is a last resort. The first route a company takes when their game isn't doing as well as they'd like is not to go f2p, its to cut back its budget. You start losing development staff, community support, and QA. Only when budget cuts don't work does a game go f2p. And guess what. Those positions don't ever come back. F2p games are maintained by skeleton crews. That battle team, item team, music team, etc. that we're so used to becomes that battle guy, that item person, and that music woman. Patches come once a year, endgame completely dies, and the content in the game becomes even more glamour based than we're already used to.
No thank you. -
12-02-2015, 06:44 AMDante_V
The sub model is infinitely better and FFXIV has prospered under this model.
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12-02-2015, 07:22 AMAarik
Yeaaah. Pretty sure all of you are getting trolled, if that wasn't obvious enough. Not only is the OP's original post EXCEEDINGLY contradictory, but taking five minutes to compare FtP and PtP would paint a painfully clear picture of why FtP is generally reviled. Or OP could be farming reply counts. Either way, OP is very well fed.
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12-02-2015, 07:25 AMDelmontyb
I think that there has to be some kind of system that would allow more people to play without having to sub. I like that this game has a sub, but there are some of those out there that just can't sub, and not because of money, but because of time. The military is a good example.
Personally, I think it would be great if the game allowed people to login and play up to a maximum time per month un-subbed. Much like the free four days they are doing now. It would be great if the game gave everyone 12 to 24 hours (or some value, etc) that allowed people to play the game each month, would be nice. That wouldn't be concurrent, but total time to play, etc.
Maybe even add in a roll over, so that they can end up saving 36 to 48 hours if they are unable to play for x amount of time.
All numbers would need to be reviewed, but the game doesn't need to be FTP, but having players who want to play, but it doesn't make since to sub, whey they can only spend at most 16 hours a month with the game misses out.
They would still have to buy the game, and if they wanted to play more they could always sub at that point, etc. These are just the random thoughts of one person though, I'm sure there are all kinds of issues with gil sellers, etc. with this plan. -
12-02-2015, 07:53 AMTaranTatsuuchiI think some pessimists would change that to say "Square Enix has prospered"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante_V
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12-02-2015, 08:22 AMAdire
If the cash shop continues to expand, I'll welcome F2p with open arms. No point in paying for a sub if you have to cash shop to get cool things and that's a road we're starting to travel now.
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12-02-2015, 08:44 AMSaccharinCash shop start off as innocent and then they test the waters and add more things to it. In a few years time I'd put gil on other services like char slots being added.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
Sadly today's player is now hard-wired to be willing to pay extra for content. Just look at that cash grab that is Destiny.
I also forgot when originality typing but yes not only do you have to pay for extra retainers but you have to subscribe to them them!
We were informed that due to technical hurdles we can;t get extra inventory space and that we would get extra retainers. OK, fair enough but then when the patch notes landed we found out we had to pay extra for them - each month.
I'm all for companies making money but what SE have done to monetise the game outside of the sub is frankly disgusting. They have the morals of a f2p game, in fact f2p are more honest about it.
I wouldn't mind if they just increased the sub a little if it's not viable in this day and age.
Subscription and cash shop model with new stuff new coming out cash shop exclusive. See above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante_V
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12-02-2015, 11:15 AMAskaRayAll of those are subjective though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
I think all those mounts are sort of ugly, and the only Scion outfit I'd want is well.... not the point.
On the other hand no one can say faster leveling and other F2P cash shop items are "subjective". It's more "if you don't get this you literally will be playing sub par". -
12-02-2015, 11:24 AMAshkendorThis is like a textbook example of a slippery slope fallacy. There's no proof to show that SE intends to ever add anything but 100% cosmetic content to the cash shop, and in fact they've said multiple times that they're going to be keeping it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saccharin
The thing is, giving 1 or 2 extra retainers to every single character on every single server would surely add up to more space than only adding for those that are willing to pay for the service. Think about how many people have alts - I doubt that very many people subscribe to extra retainers for each alt (if they subscribe to retainers at all, since you can use alts and the FC chest to list and/or store extra items for you). Don't get me wrong, I'd like more retainers too. It would give me even more market presence than I already have. The only problem I'd have is keeping a supply of venture coins on hand. :3Quote:
We were informed that due to technical hurdles we can;t get extra inventory space and that we would get extra retainers. OK, fair enough but then when the patch notes landed we found out we had to pay extra for them - each month.
I don't see how glamour items and mounts are "disgusting" but that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. To me, the only types of things that would make the cash shop intolerable would be if they affected actual game stats, exp gain, or access to areas.Quote:
I'm all for companies making money but what SE have done to monetise the game outside of the sub is frankly disgusting. They have the morals of a f2p game, in fact f2p are more honest about it.
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12-02-2015, 11:31 AMRyelI get what you're trying to say but i don't think you realize how easy it is to apply that logic to to other services.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
Lets try it.
"The thing is, adding a ward or housing plot to accommodate every single character on every single server would surely add up to more space than only adding for those that are willing to pay for the service."
See the problem there?
I don't disagree that the slippery slope fallacy is real with a lot of the arguments that crop up, but lets not pretend that some of those reasons aren't dangerously close to being applicable to other services even if they aren't likely to do so. -
12-02-2015, 12:18 PMAdireSubjective or not, that's beside the point. I don't particularly like any of the vanity currently in the cash shop myself, actually. But they're bound to add something exclusive that I do want eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by AskaRay
If my experience in other MMOs says anything, it's that once it's clear the cash shop is highly profitable and once it's clear that the people who spend, spend enough to offset the cost of losing players who don't spend and then some, the cash shop will become the go to place for anything unique or cool.
You can look to SWTOR for a very clear example of that. At this point, almost all of the new fashions are in the cash shop in that, and the ones not in it were obviously an afterthought.
Besides, I know I'd feel sub par if someone ran by me on something I really wanted from the cash shop but didn't want to buy because of the principle of it. It really is pointless using the expired argument of "Vanity cash shop is fine, pay to win/level/etc" is not. To some people, vanity is as important as stats if not more so. And it being expanded in the cash shop will make said players essentially be sub par to those who choose to spend and encourage the expansion of it because vanity is a major attraction to the game for them.
Fallacy is a very popular go to word unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
This isn't an example of a slippery slope fallacy, it's an example of trending. One that many of us see as a negative trend. One that is backed by history with an entire industry and current events in the same industry. One that in this situation particularly is backed by already present game systems such as retainer purchasing that serve as evidence (retainers are not vanity). Trends do develop quite often when humans are involved in something, and I think MMO running companies pushing players to the limits with microtransactions is quite evidenced enough to be considered more than a "slippery slope fallacy". It's not like this would be a fluke.
I can name a plethora of MMOs that have expanded their cash shops greatly since launch and a plethora of real life events that started small with people just shrugging and ignoring it, then later becoming a major occurrence. There is plenty of evidence of this trend happening in MMOs and already some in FFXIV in particular.
Microtransactions are rampant these days when they weren't in the past and people successfully predicted it happening. Was that a slippery slope fallacy? No, it was an educated prediction that was based off knowledge of business-customer relationship dynamics and now it's an accepted fact. The gaming industry tested the waters, people bought in slowly and began to accept it as the standard, and now it's common practice throughout the gaming industry.
If SE successfully pushes the community to its tolerance limits with vanity in the cash shop, we can look at WoW as an example of what would likely happen next.
If SE was given the choice to either make profit with pay to win, or hold to their word and do the right thing, would you trust them to do the latter?
Given the track record with SE's current cash shop slowly introducing new forms of cash-shop exclusive vanity and retainers, I know I wouldn't. It's a high profit endeavor with a small cost, highly enticing for a company willing to overlook morals and content-oriented additions to a game.
Just be aware, by the time you draw your personal line, it may be too late to go back. Encroaching cash shops are a problem that needs to be nipped in the bud for everyone's sake (or at least for people who can't afford to/don't want to be a whale). I say this from experience with many other MMOs, and while SE is not one of those companies obviously, some of the choices they've made (such as stagnating progress increase per patch, STILL citing old 1.0 era problems despite introducing the cash shop and making a steady profit, etc) it doesn't give me much faith. At least the MMOs I played previously also only introduced cash shops after they went F2P/B2P or at launch when they were F2P to begin with.
Introduction of a cash shop in a subscription game while still maintaining the status quo of excuses as to why we can't have things we should have already had at launch and even giving us less content per patch at times is not a good way to build trust for what they might do in the future. -
12-02-2015, 01:01 PMJijifli>Stares at Pay2Win modelsQuote:
Originally Posted by PawsTheKitti123
>Stares at many free game communities
Ya let's not, okay? -
12-02-2015, 01:24 PMAzazua_azura
Having tried 27 free to play games.. no thank you.
People expect you to pay. I tried mabinogi and its a cute game. Saddly nothing I wanted was on free aspact and payed $60 in 1 day on the game, its not unheard of people paying 50-100 on free to play games each mnth. And spometimes people ina game can be hardcore to a bad player for not having all the uptodat cash shoip stuff. In virtual chat like the now shut down Playstation home, people bragged over spending 100 mnthly on it, amd would harrasse you if you didn't buy stuff from the shop. -
12-02-2015, 03:43 PMhagareyeaaaaaa. that's what they all say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
Your argument is the exact same argument that was made when WoW first released its item store with exclusive mounts and pets.
This is cosmetic, vanity etc etc.
This is not that game, they won't ever go that way.
And now they have a level 100 character boost that gives an instant lvl 100 character, with level appropriate gear and all the bells and whistles. Still vanity?
and the funniest thing is, if you check there there are actually still people defending it.
slippery slope? This is a straight drop xD -
12-02-2015, 04:26 PMColorfulIt's not even just the level boosts, when WoW first added cash shop mounts people were angry of course, but there where people with the attitude "It's just a mount, we have 100s in game!", "We're still going to get cool mounts in game, why complain?" and for sometime they were right. Now, just about every new mount that isn't a reskin is added to their cash shop, or the collector's edition for their next expansion pack. Even the new Moose mount was going to be a cash shop mount, but after much anger on social media, their forums, Reddit, etc. they decided to add it as a reward for the endgame raid (equivalent of Mythic) as a token for beating the final boss... temporarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by hagare
At least with FFXIV we're not getting unique mounts on the cash shop, so there's still some hope. As someone who plays the game for the vanity and knows many others who do (out of my 20+ friends, only one raids), "it's just vanity" isn't a good argument. People care about vanity, that's a fact. Even raiders who claim they don't, do. They want a unique gear set, they want a unique mount, everyone cares for vanity. But as I said, as long as that slippery slope doesn't happen we'll be fine. If it does, I'll subscribe once every patch cycle to check out the new content and then leave like I do with WoW (once per expansion end there though). -
12-02-2015, 04:34 PMhagarewait for it xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Colorful
people who say "it's just vanity" must not realize that vanity is what lasts in MMOs.
gear gets replaced, content gets outdated, etc etc
Glamour? Mounts? Minions? Those lasts and are used forever. -
12-02-2015, 08:51 PMCatwho
Well, yeah, fashion is the true endgame.
On that note, I'm not getting the reskinned magitek mounts because they're not in my image color (green.) If I played my alts with any more regularity than I do, though, I'd be grabbing the red one for Body Count. -
12-02-2015, 09:01 PMMilesSaintboroguhWoW got away with it because no one else could really hold a candle to their massive subscriber base and the devs could literally afford to get away with it and not care. Don't think Square Enix has that same luxury.Quote:
Originally Posted by hagare
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12-02-2015, 09:11 PMhagareYes. I've heard that one as well. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
This game is not that game.
Spend your money however you want.
because whatever we say won't matter if most keep buying. -
12-03-2015, 12:05 AMAltera
F2P usually means you even pay MORE in the long run than P2P imo.
Just look at maaaaany F2P out there that has paywalls that would take you sooo much more time to complete unless you pay for it. Like I have seen MMOs charge extra for extra Action Bars, Inventory slots, Increased amount you can put on Auction etc etc.
I play Simpsons Tapped Out on my tablet sometimes, and it has sooo many paywalls unless you buy Donuts to speed up the timers. Like a boatload of Donuts would cost me 100$, and that would still now get me enought donuts to buy everything that can only be bought with Donuts instead of the Ingame Currency
So FFXIV, going F2P. I am quitting and thats not an empty threat. I did it with WOW, and I can do it with XIV. -
12-03-2015, 01:14 AMSicnohttp://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im...-Sleipnir2.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Colorful
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12-03-2015, 01:53 AMCatwho
Sleipnir was a mistake and I hope SE has learned their lesson.
But I think the recolored Magitek mounts are fine. -
12-03-2015, 02:44 AMExiaQuanta
Imagine.
Base Heavensward 29.99
MCH $9.99
AST $9.99
DRK $9.99
instead of needing 3.8 exp and now needed 7.6m exp from 59-60 but each dungeon only gives you about 1% - 3% in your exp bar but cashop offers 4hours 2x exp for 1 day for 1.99 or 9.99 for 24 hours for 4 days.
all skills obtained after 50 are cashop and cost 4.99 each. You can now +10 every weapon with the usage of money and make every content laughable and a potion that makes you withstand any OHKO mechanic with 1hp for 4.99 or higher for 5 pots. Or in PVP where if any GC faction had the most cashop items will instant win. -
12-03-2015, 03:13 AMStrejdaTom
It is shame that there are no longer MMOs (also no upcoming MMOs if I haven't missed something) that give you access to EVERYTHING in exchange for monthly subscription. No cash shop, no bonus services etc. I think that every MMO is slowly going into F2P model (simply because it is much more lucrative) and no matter what Yoshi says, when SE decides F2P model will make them more profit, FFXIV will go into F2P too.
They just need to find out the right mixture of stuff that would yield enough money (in cash shop). So far they tried only vanity stuff, but they will definitely try to cross the line a few times in future. -
12-03-2015, 03:14 AMLemuria
The biggest problem with F2P models is balance. For every free player, you would have another player forking out far more than the subscription costs. The average 'Free to Play' game costs a lot more to play than subscription models, because of the sheer volume of quests or other goodies which tend to be locked behind pay walls.
This game already has a cash shop for glamours, so it would be utter foolishness to assume they could survive purely on glamours alone to sustain development on the story and other areas. In short, the very thing that makes it a Final Fantasy game would be fatally wounded if they switched to a F2P model. -
12-03-2015, 01:32 PMSaccharinbut...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
Keeping the most wanted for the cash shop. That's beyond disgusting come to think of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
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12-03-2015, 02:15 PMBourne_EndeavorUnfortunately, people have a huge aversion to subscription based MMOs despite it being proven they actually cost less in the long haul because many people will eventually succumb to temptation and buy things from the Cash Shop. Everyone starts by claiming they would never pay real money for that stuff. Until that one item they've really wanted appears. Then it's "Okay, it's only one item." And then...Quote:
Originally Posted by StrejdaTom
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7...r8duo2_500.gif -
12-03-2015, 02:30 PMFurieawhy? because it keeps idiots and little kids out of this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by PawsTheKitti123
you need to pay for the game itself and pay monthly >> get committed players (even known some still suck) -
12-03-2015, 03:34 PMvigioX-Sunan this is why I prefer P2P, always better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furiea
+1 to you -
12-03-2015, 04:20 PMAdireIf only it really worked this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furiea
I see as many manchildren in this game as I see in F2P games, sometimes more. -
12-03-2015, 04:21 PMDCILuther
The Stigma of F2P being P2W came from those Eastern (SKorea/China/Japan) MMORPGS back in the day (I would say from 2001/2002 to present) that were ported to NA. There were tons of them. The way they made money in Asia is through the Cash Shop. Publishers brought that system them in the NA versions. Of course being "free", it attracted a ton of people, so you got ALL kinds of people playing the game. The Cash Shop back then were cosmetic items but also p2w items. Today, Cash Shop items for different games are similar and different at the same time. Mostly, it's P2W but also mostly Pay-to-not-be-inconveniened, like features locked behind paywall. Also going from P2P to F2P in the NA market is seen as a failure in some cases, if not, it is always seen as a "desperate" move.
Take a look at SWTOR, when they went F2P, so many things were locked behind a paywall/cash shop/market/whatever. I'm talking about Hotbars, Races, Money Limit, Storage, etc.
I want you to imagine FFXIV having:
-the other races except Hyur locked behind cash shop (you have to buy each race)
-350K Gil Limit per character
-Limited Retainers and/or retainer space
-Limited Market sell space
-All mounts except Chocobo on Cash Shop
-Unable to wear Certain Gear unless you are a Subscriber/Cash Shop
-Glamour is disabled unless you are a Subscriber/Cash Shop
-Something like Titles are not enabled unless Subscribed/Cash Shop
-and many more horrible things.
Think about that.
Finally, I think Yoshi-P said, that the difference between F2P and P2P is: if you are F2P, you (dev team) develop content for the CASH SHOP, rather than content for the actual game. The in-game content suffers as a result. (If I can find the link) -
12-03-2015, 05:14 PMColorfulBy unique I mean mounts that took development time to actually develop a new model and the like, this was done with the development time in like 5 minutes (as said in a development blog I believe). The only thing we have similar to this is minions I believe, but $5 is more than reasonable for a minion if I'm being honest, compared to WoW's $10 anyway (I also couldn't care less about minions unless they're really nice).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicno