DEV REQUEST: Remove cast bars to MCH & BRD

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

how its possible that we gained 30% dmg and we are still doing the same dps compared to others?

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Simply because if we didn't get the 30% damage boost, we would have even less overall dps than the other jobs. Plus, you're only looking at numbers where it is in favourable conditions (i.e a striking dummy). Straight Shot procs definitely needs to have the animation delay looked into so it can function just like Shot procs, and Warden's Paean probably warrants some slight changes as well. I'm happy with the current Bard though.

I'm just wondering if people are compairing BRD to BLM because now BRD has a (super short) cast time. Out of those people that say BRD is like BLM now because they have this cast time, how many of them have a level 60 BLM and have the rotation down? I play BRD and my roommate mains BLM. We are no were near as restricted on movement as a BLM is. You really can't compair the two. BLM has to worry about two buffs and keeping its rotation perfect or risk loosing Leyline and Enochian. If a BLM moves around to much they risk that they will loose Enochian. If they loose Enochian they loose a huge chunk of damage. BRD has nothing like this. They can move and pick up where they left off. The only timers we have to watch is our DoTs. So some of the BRDs/MCH that are complaining that they are now like BLMs need to level BLM to 60, perfect that rotation and then say how much BRD and MCH are way to much like BLM.

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Originally Posted by mdha02

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Now your mistake was assuming that mobility was the problem that BRDs have :x.

The matter of fact is, they're trying to make us play like BLM without actually being a BLM. BRD abilities were not designed to accommodate cast times, that's why you have procs that straight up do not react for you in time or you start clipping oGCDs because you're doubling up (which is very easy to do, and you s hould be doing, cause otherwise you're risking a reset overlap on bloodletter).

It has nothing to do with difficulty, but that there's no natural flow for BRD, especially when they have made it work just fine on MCH or even BLM (as far as procs are concerned, because you can catch firestarter procs if you were to weave an oGCD right after fire I, but firestarter as of now is less prominent in your rotation because of enochian) and some traits outright not working properly when it should be.

I like the concept of gauss barrel but I hate that it applies to EVERYTHING. MCH feels slow and clunky - not decisive and quick like it really should.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Simply because if we didn't get the 30% damage boost, we would have even less overall dps than the other jobs.

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of course if WM / GB didnt have 30% dmg boost, healers would outdps bard/mch, and no 1 would use it , but thats not the point.

The point is that brd are the same in dps rankings that 2.0 , but we lost our movility and gained nothing....because SE boosted everyone by 30% coming from 2.0 to 3.0 HOWEVER bards are the only one that payed that cost with WM (casting). (well Blm with ley lines and Nin with positionals )

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

The point is that brd are the same in dps rankings that 2.0 , but we lost our movility and gained nothing because SE boosted everyone by 30% coming from 2.0 to 3.0.

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Why are you using the dps rankings? Those are usually done in favourable conditions. Actual encounters differ from each other; some jobs are better in certain encounters than others. Also, what mobility? You really don't have to move as much as you're suggesting. Plus, it's not like Minuet puts an eternal non-cleansable bind on you.

Square boosted everyone 30% compared to what exactly?

Melee was doing 500 - 600 decent dps at the end of 2.5 on average. At this point we are doing 1300 - 1500 before 3.1. I don't see where this 30% figure is coming from.

And while the skill floor has certainly increased, good players on both machinist and bard that I know have had little issue making comparable dps output with other dps.

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Originally Posted by mdha02

So some of the BRDs/MCH that are complaining that they are now like BLMs need to level BLM to 60, perfect that rotation and then say how much BRD and MCH are way to much like BLM.

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they are exaggerating. my SMN though is MORE mobile than my BRD, both are at 60 and that is not an exaggeration at all.

mobility isn't even the biggest problem as the clunky use of oGCD with cast bars is much worse.

MCH is better with the procs, this system seemed to have been designed for MCHs and then just tacked on to BRDs after.

Anyone think that maybe they removed the mobility of bard because they wanted to remove the mobility and not to make the job interesting?

You have cast bars to get you killed in AOEs. That, specifically, is the exact reason they were implemented; to make your job as hard as everyone else's.

In 2.xx BRD was my wifes 2nd job and she says she enjoyed it more then her main. Which is Warrior.
Post 3.0 we are both 60 but she hasn't even really started on a 2nd job.. Really we aren't playing anything much after capping eso. She has just lost interest in getting a DPS to 60.

I play bard. But with WM and the added rotation, I think my effectiveness has gone down...

I can do with WM, what i can no longer stand in dungeon runs is the new rotation:

Switch target, switch target, switch target, iron jaws, switch target, switch target, iron jaws.
Every 10 seconds...

Also the mini game "where is Waldo" is coming soon with the Void Ark :p

Ah, but unless things changed since I played, I do recall still being able to move while charging my shots.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

TERA archers are also slowed by like 60% when charging.

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Originally Posted by RocheKat

Anyone think that maybe they removed the mobility of bard because they wanted to remove the mobility and not to make the job interesting?

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yes, but it doesn't matter what they wanted if they do it poorly.

You know I still don't get the argument, I haven't leveled either so please correct me if I am wrong. This is based on the mobility issue.

When there is no mechanics going on, your still anyway so why not embrace the stance to do more dps. If a mechanic requires you to move cancel stance and carry on pew pew 2.0 mode until mechanics are done then back to stance - as far as I can see there is no mobility issue, you should have been standing still anyway when there was no reason to move.

Please redesign any cast times post-50 to reflect the play style of BRD originally as it was meant to be. I agree with the OP: this is a matter of play style. Keep bard a physical and mobile DPS with consistent but fast-paced damage please.

I feel it's important to point out that since 2.0, BRD has seen so many dev tweaks that it's got a permanent identity crisis. This has only made it worse. If you want to create a sniper-style, aiming technique in which we have to pause as a part of the job's role, that's fine, but make it represent physical+ranged+melee and get rid of this quirky casting dynamic. Even Ninja with their mudras are able to cast on the go as physical DPS.

Lastly, from a social standpoint running Duty Finder dungeons, there are too many other players who feel it's necessary to micromanage every aspect of your play especially as a DPS. It's already an obnoxious habit of those who'll boss you around on something like Mage's Ballad or Foe Requiem as if you haven't discerned enough about your own job for 50+ levels. Add to this the use of Wanderer's Minuet and associated skills and it's just a mood killer, a shot to morale, a downer, yes a mood killer!

Normally i would aprove this but since i have 5 days in a row in Shiva Trial roulette where all bards and MCH die because they are runin like idiots, im sorry xD.

Really the only thing they should fix its the problem with Probs in Bard skills. Sicerily before the Expansion i hope they do something like this but instead of Casting Bar a skill Toggle where they gain like +30% damage but they cant move until you desactive the toggle. ( No cooldown)

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Originally Posted by Kathyz

Normally i would aprove this but since i have 5 days in a row in Shiva Trial roulette where all bards and MCH die because they are runin like idiots, im sorry xD.

Really the only thing they should fix its the problem with Probs in Bard skills. Sicerily before the Expansion i hope they do something like this but instead of Casting Bar a skill Toggle where they gain like +30% damage but they cant move until you desactive the toggle. ( No cooldown)

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with how GCD and animation lock work in FFXIV that would kill more bards than Titan players in all his life :P

what SE need to fix is the clunky gameplay and finally boost bow/gun WD so is on par with every other job ~~ , casting sucks? yeah , but isnt going anywhere.

p.d btw Tera archers used glyps to remove the penalty while casting ;)

Bard was one of my favorites until I unlocked Wanderer's Minuet. The casting simply doesn't fit, and I was expecting, you know, an actual song. Like, why wasn't WM made into a song that reduces enemy resistance to physical damage? What are we doing? Enchanting each arrow before we fire them? It's just too weird.

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Originally Posted by rappa

180 wep bard = 63 Weapon Damage
180 wep nin-mnk-drg = 70 Weapon Damage.
+7 WD

190 wep bard = 65 Weapon Damage
190 wep nin-mnk-drg = 72 Weapon Damage.
+7 WD

200 wep bard = 67 Weapon Damage
200 wep nin-mnk-drg = 74 Weapon Damage.
+7 WD

210 wep bard = 68 Weapon Damage
210 wep nin-mnk-drg = 76 Weapon Damage.
+8 WD

That is the problem, nor potency, nor skills. Our weapon damage is less than others
dps and the difference is increased final wep stage.

Too afraid to stay the +7 WD difference?

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something interesting to note; bards/mch have 11 more main stat(dex) then the other jobs. for a while, i thought ninja was missing dex, but its just that the base is higher.

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

You know I still don't get the argument, I haven't leveled either so please correct me if I am wrong. This is based on the mobility issue.

When there is no mechanics going on, your still anyway so why not embrace the stance to do more dps. If a mechanic requires you to move cancel stance and carry on pew pew 2.0 mode until mechanics are done then back to stance - as far as I can see there is no mobility issue, you should have been standing still anyway when there was no reason to move.

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There is no problem with mobility, at least there isn't any worth talking about. Mobility shouldn't even be a factor considering casters and melee still outdamage bards in 2.0 despite the latter's un-restrained/free dps on the go.

The problem that most former-BRD mains (me included) is how the cast times interact with your traits and abilities, causing them to not function properly or work against it.

I've started learning to play with WM, mostly because I feel the way SE designed it, intentionally or not, we have to keep it on all the time. there is a point you can start moving while casting. charging? I kinda feel that having a UI element to alert when buffs or debuffs are wearing off better would help but that requires SE to put on Addon support. And SE seems to be putting that on the backburner to everything else.

I feel the fix for WM would likely involve auto-attack. If SE can adjust it somehow so they can give that back to bard, it would appease many of the players. the lose of auto-attack is far too great I feel with the way bard was originally re-designed in 2.0. dps tracking is going to register any movement from bards as dps lose when WM is up, which we have to keep up all the time.

Just got bard to 60, and enjoy using WM. I never moved much during 2.x while attacking anyway so the only difference to me is things take a bit longer to fire. No big deal. Adjust and move on.

MCH main here. And the more I use Gauss Barrel, the more I like how it works. Actually, that statement applies to the whole class altogether.

I'm sort of a fan of stance-dancing. I like the feeling of being able to choose between mobility and power, because there are definitely moments in endgame content where one or the other is called for.

It's me, I am the Rifle Wizard.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

It's me, I am the Rifle Wizard.

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If only Machinists had the options to use Rifles....
I would switch in a heartbeat from Bard.


....unless of course Bards had the option to use Crossbows.

then w_w;;

I think the cast times are fun. I'm not sure how BRD works, but at least MCH can still move and shoot while on a proc. So I can still move around a bit while shooting. Even so, I find it challenging and fun to actually think about where I'm standing, where I need to be, and timing the movement.

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Originally Posted by UltimateAoe2

If only Machinists had the options to use Rifles....
then w_w;;

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Rifles, blunderbusses, musketoons, carbines, uh...whatever else they're called...

http://i.imgur.com/0SwXzft.gif

(this is how my retainers feel about me)

Nah OP, you're gonna stand there like everyone else and DPS or turn off WM/GB and do your subpar DPS. This was fix I wanted for BRDs and I'm happy.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

Nah OP, you're gonna stand there like everyone else and DPS or turn off WM/GB and do your subpar DPS. This was fix I wanted for BRDs and I'm happy.

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Are you referring to the fact that during 2.x Bards pretty much defined themselves by being the ones who ran around like annoying spazzes, frequently pulling aggro and preventing anyone except ranged (i.e. non-tanky) classes from helping out and actually getting the thing done?

Because yeah.

In light of that, Minuet is the most beautiful addition to FFXIV possible.

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Originally Posted by Muin

Please redesign any cast times post-50 to reflect the play style of BRD originally as it was meant to be. I agree with the OP: this is a matter of play style. Keep bard a physical and mobile DPS with consistent but fast-paced damage please.

I feel it's important to point out that since 2.0, BRD has seen so many dev tweaks that it's got a permanent identity crisis. This has only made it worse. If you want to create a sniper-style, aiming technique in which we have to pause as a part of the job's role, that's fine, but make it represent physical+ranged+melee and get rid of this quirky casting dynamic. Even Ninja with their mudras are able to cast on the go as physical DPS.

Lastly, from a social standpoint running Duty Finder dungeons, there are too many other players who feel it's necessary to micromanage every aspect of your play especially as a DPS. It's already an obnoxious habit of those who'll boss you around on something like Mage's Ballad or Foe Requiem as if you haven't discerned enough about your own job for 50+ levels. Add to this the use of Wanderer's Minuet and associated skills and it's just a mood killer, a shot to morale, a downer, yes a mood killer!

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As I've repeatedly said in the past, the true compromise between both sides would be to make the cast bars fill while moving (WoW's Steady Shot works like this). The only issue then would be that long-time BRDs would still feel the change in pace.

Another option would be to redesign of ARC to be in line with 3.0's BRD design. A general rule of thumb that works well enough is for the heavy damage shots to have the cast times, while DoTs and essentially filler shots being instant. Following this idea, Heavy Shot would get a cast time, Straight Shot would get a cast time (Straighter Shot procs would remove the cast time), Windbite and Venomous Bite would remain instant. Have Wide Volley and Quick Knock get cast times, but have Straighter Shot procs remove the cast time (obviously the proc would have to be renamed). WM would have to be changed to something else or still be required to use Iron Jaws/Empyreal Arrow, but not add cast times. Iron Jaws would have to become instant. Leave Sidewinder and Empyreal Arrow as is.

Yet another option would be to leave the 1-50 gameplay as is and redesign the HW abilities to be in line with how the job played 1-50. This is where it can get a bit messy, but there are several ways to go about it.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Now your mistake was assuming that mobility was the problem that BRDs have :x.

The matter of fact is, they're trying to make us play like BLM without actually being a BLM. BRD abilities were not designed to accommodate cast times, that's why you have procs that straight up do not react for you in time or you start clipping oGCDs because you're doubling up (which is very easy to do, and you s hould be doing, cause otherwise you're risking a reset overlap on bloodletter).

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Ok, this I understand. BRDs proc skill should be exactly like MCHs. I completely agree. Missing 3 bloodletters is pretty crappy. I should rephrase what I'm saying. I'm targeting the people who are crying about having to stand still for 2 seconds to charge a move. I see more people crying that they have to stand still now, more than making viable arguments about missing out on procs. To those people who are saying BRD is too much like BLM now in that aspect I'm saying, go level a BLM to 60, learn the rotation, go use that rotation in Neverreap and then come back here and compare BLM to BRD.

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Originally Posted by mdha02

To those people who are saying BRD is too much like BLM now in that aspect I'm saying, go level a BLM to 60, learn the rotation, go use that rotation in Neverreap and then come back here and compare BLM to BRD.

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This is so true.
Coming to BRD from BLM, I can say from my own EXP that BLM has it much worse.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

FFXIV has 6 mages, you forgot
Card Mage(AST)
Blood Mage(DRK)
I guess if you want to get technical there is also 2 Pet Mages as well >_>

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Actually you forgot Weaver mage. No mobility at all while crafting

Stop being lazy and accept the changes. Reason being Bard 2.x had it far too easy and it was way easier to deal with mechanics over other classes because of you know mobility.
Heavansward, SE wanted all classes to have to at least think a little and deal with mechanics

@ mdha02, agreed 100%, people are still bringing up comparisons between Bard and black mage but have absolutely NO experience with it.
Play both classes people and then comment as you guys are clueless.

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Originally Posted by Maero

, people are still bringing up comparisons between Bard and black mage but have absolutely NO experience with it.
Play both classes people and then comment as you guys are clueless.

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BLM and BRDs are only comparable in the sense that they both have the same restrictions from cast times, that BLM can't catch their firestarter procs immediately...to an extent since they can oGCD/thundercloud weave to register the proc faster, nor do they ever hardcast fire III in astral to waste that proc. BRDs have SS as a regular part of their rotation, on top of an oGCD that resets.

Movement...not so much considering it didn't even stop BLMs from topping bards in 2.0, let alone now. It gets into a deeper mess when you consider what the reason was for BRD's lower damage output back then, where the developers themselves dance between the mobility or support aspect. Shorter cast times or not, it's still some resemblance of movement getting into your dps rotation, but honestly that has never seem to be that big of an issue now or before, for both classes.

it's ok, when you're in situations where you have to move frequently to avoid aoes just remove it, when it's safe for a while reactivate it, if you're just gonna stand there shooting arrows in peaceful phases, might as well get 30% more damage, it makes the jobs more "technical" to play, learn when to use it and when to remove it to optimize the damage output, that's the bard now, deal with it or change job.

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Originally Posted by RosaBlanche

learn when to use it and when to remove it to optimize the damage output, that's the bard now, deal with it or change job.

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to that other ranged job without casting time?

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Are you referring to the fact that during 2.x Bards pretty much defined themselves by being the ones who ran around like annoying spazzes, frequently pulling aggro and preventing anyone except ranged (i.e. non-tanky) classes from helping out and actually getting the thing done?

Because yeah.

In light of that, Minuet is the most beautiful addition to FFXIV possible.

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Yes, sooooo much yes on this lol.

Only thing I wish they fixed was the DAMN STRAIGHT SHOT PROC.


it's never immediate. literally have to wait a half GCD - one full GCD to let it actually register. ; n;