NO MORE ALEXANDER(NM)!

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Originally Posted by Colorful

There are extreme people on both sides, and trying to argue reasonably is going to get you shouted at no matter what you say. Can't remember if it on Reddit or here, but I suggested a 3 tier difficulty raid: Normal, Extreme and Savage. Extreme would be the first to come out, after a month both Normal and Savage would be released so the casuals (including myself) have a place to go, and the best of the best have Savage. This would satisfy all groups at the cost of a little bit more development time. Want to know what I got in response? The same things you see in this thread, "normal was a mistake", "you should have to work for story", and "Alexander normal should have never happened" so I don't even bother anymore. I don't know why people feel so threatened about the majority seeing content they funded.

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^This pretty much sums up what I think about the whole situation. I don't even want to call Normal Alex Normal, more like basic. Three difficulties would be nice.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

What does the fact that the new true raid offers no new lore, no new glamour and almost no new mechanics to do with e-peen?
Raiders were just used to raid for gear, glamour, story and new mechanics so expansion is a huge downgrade in this area for them/me.

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the fact that Alex Savage is only released for the challenge.

I think a better solution is what happened in WoW with LFR.

Just introduce the normal mode shortly after the savage version, (say, a couple of weeks after, basically a reverse of the order it came out this time). For 2 reasons;
1.) Those who really want to experience the story first, will have extra motivation to do so.
2.) Gear in the Normal Mode won't be needed for early progression in the Savage version. As any possible/reasonably-possible ilevel increase you can get, is expected to be earned for any serious raiding static.

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Originally Posted by hagare

the fact that Alex Savage is only released for the challenge.

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That isn't enough to keep 8 people going into it a few times a week, or it atleast seems so from all these 7/8 6/8 statics recruiting daily for A3 or A2.
And the fact that there will be same gear level available sooner than majority of raiding groups (not every FF player, just raiding groups) will even get to A4 doesn't help the popularity of Alex too.

They should have made one easy story mode raid connected to MSQ and one savage raid with its own story not connected to MSQ at all. That way raiders could still raid like in 2.X and people who don't raid wouldn't have story locked behind raiding (I mean savage raiding, NM Alex is on hard primal difficulty).

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That isn't enough to keep 8 people going into it a few times a week, or it atleast seems so from all these 7/8 6/8 statics recruiting daily for A3 or A2.

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Raid statics have often had people who leave, whether it's for RL reasons, they got what they want, or they just aren't happy there, or etc. since BCoB the dawn of MMOs; this is nothing new

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

That isn't enough to keep 8 people going into it a few times a week, or it atleast seems so from all these 7/8 6/8 statics recruiting daily for A3 or A2.
And the fact that there will be same gear level available sooner than majority of raiding groups (not every FF player, just raiding groups) will even get to A4 doesn't help the popularity of Alex too.

They should have made one easy story mode raid connected to MSQ and one savage raid with its own story not connected to MSQ at all. That way raiders could still raid like in 2.X and people who don't raid wouldn't have story locked behind raiding (I mean savage raiding, NM Alex is on hard primal difficulty).

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Your right that it would be easy. It would also be time consuming and mean less of something else.

The blunt reality is that the Hardcore playerbase is a small portion of the playerbase and it makes little sense to cut the large majority of the players out of storytelling from a development standpoint. One of the major complaints I saw about Coils back in 2.x was from players who didn't have the time or skill to commit to structured raiding and as such missed out on some of the best storytelling in the game. Lets be clear here. It's about denying players access to story, not making content they don't want to do. Even if a hardcore player doesn't really enjoy casual gameplay, there is nothing denying them access to any story behind it.

I think its perfectly viable to argue that glamour and such should be put behind savage. I don't think you can put story behind it though without pissing off more players than you would mollify.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

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What quality of the story makes it less reasonable to gate behind a difficult challenge, than gating gear behind the same challenge? Clearly there must be some difference between the two for you to be okay with the latter, but not the former being behind difficult content.

If I purchase a book, am I entitled to understand the intricacies of the plot, characters, story, and the like, simply by virtue of reading it? Am I entitled to also be able to read spin-offs without paying further, what if they were started in the original text?

I'm being rhetorical because I don't see the reason why the story isn't alright to gate, but the gear is, other than entirely personal preference. Which is fine, but you seem to imply otherwise. Do players enjoy story more than gear?

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Originally Posted by hagare

the fact that Alex Savage is only released for the challenge.

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Though most of that challenge appears to be on the healer, since the bosses hit like a falling building made of trucks with sharks with laser beams attached to their head (and some ill-tempered sea bass).

If we get rid of normal Alexander, can we get rid of normal Coil as well?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Though most of that challenge appears to be on the healer, since the bosses hit like a falling building made of trucks with sharks with laser beams attached to their head (and some ill-tempered sea bass).

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Only if tanks are wearing str accessories, if using vit then it isn't even bad at all.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Now since there some people who want to bring it up in everyone of these threads, let's compare mmos to single player games.
Almost in every single RPG, almost game, there is content after the end of the story. Usually this content is harder than the actually game itself. Most of the time, this content unlocks new skills, the best gear, more lore, and sometimes the true ending of the game. Most of the time, the average player is gonna to fail HARD. These players will either give up on it or get better. Now you don't see those players who gave up complaining about how they couldn't beat the endgame content and how the devs shouldn't put content that they, themselves, couldn't reach. However, according to your logic, since they paid for the game they should have full access to the game.
Yet, why should they have access if they cannot clear it?

What about harder games? Since it always brought up, what about the entries in the Soul's series. According to the PSN trophy log, less than 30% of players have seen the ending of DS2. You don't see people up at arms about that do you?

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So let's step into this then and why it's a flawed argument on -either- side...

You can not compare a single player game to an MMO, in no instance is this valid. Anyone can play a single player game for as long or short as they want in whatever free time that they have. It is not beholden to any one else, either from a skill or availability standpoint. The expectation out of an MMO and the very specific demands it places on time are simply unmanageable for some people on the hardest content.

Sometimes it's not a matter of want. Sometimes it's a matter of can't, simply from a design perspective. And the point you are arguing against from the post you quoted was someone simply saying, "Don't lock the kinds of things I currently can get away behind something that will keep me from getting it."

This is going back to people thinking that end game is only for hardcore raiders. No one was complaining that we can't get Savage gear. We know that we aren't to that point, and while we might not be totally satisfied with the difficulty or the inherent content in what we do have. What people are saying is, "Don't take away way little satisfaction we -do- have just because you think it takes away from -your- experience", which... by the way... it doesn't.

Storyline is pretty lame compared to Coil. Other than that I don't see the issue.

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Originally Posted by Alex_Lenderson

Storyline is pretty lame compared to Coil. Other than that I don't see the issue.

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We have only seen the first chapter. The first coil was hardly the most riveting part of coils story either.

Raiders: "We need harder raids. I don't care about gear and titles. I just want to tackle harder content."

SE: "OK we added 2 versions of the raid to accommodate everyone, and easy version and a hard version."

Raiders: "But all the filthy casuals have similar gear and can watch all the cutscenes now."

SE: "I thought you didn't care about that stuff. We gave you harder content. Beating it is reward itself."

Raiders: "F*ck no! If I don't have gear, minions, mounts, titles, and special cutscenes to hold over the heads of casuals and allow me to flaunt my superiority, then there's no point!"

SE: "But you just said that it's not about the material rewards..."
Raiders: "It isn't"

SE: "..."

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Originally Posted by Belhi

We have only seen the first chapter. The first coil was hardly the most riveting part of coils story either.

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It was for legacy players, because it was pretty an opening to what was believed to have ended at the closing of 1.0

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Originally Posted by Malzian

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Lol I know you shouldn't compare a MMO with a single-player game, but since there are people in this forum that like comparing the two, I might as well use it against them.
I even said laughed at comparing the two, but I'm guess you read over it without noticing it...assuming you even read my post.

There is no can't in video games. It is a matter of want

Some content need to lock behind the hardcore crowd. It gives anything players can work towards.

You are right. Endgame isn't just for the hardcore, just the raid aimed at the hardcore crowd.
Now if you think endgame is only raids, then you have another problem.

I will say it Alexander Normal shouldn't exist. It should be another raid with equal difficulty

Oh about what you said about your and mine satisfaction, yours doesn't affect mine. Even if it did, I could care less just as long as your content isn't redundant

Savage Alexander sucks because the difficulty spike in A3S is monstrous and seems to exist solely to stop Lucrezia and other groups of that level from repeating what they did in FCOB and destroying the raid tier within the week. They succeeded at this, but its frankly a completely pointless concern and it seems like a lot of the worst design decisions in Heavensward happened solely to slow down the absolute best players in the game. Why does Alexander Savage have a grotesque difficulty spike out of nowhere? So it won't be cleared too fast. Why is crafted gear worse than it has ever been and practically irrelevant? So it can't be used to get past gear checks in Savage too quickly. Why are secondary stats weaker than they have ever been? To help cement crafted gear as irrelevant, by making the secondary stats you can get from materia melds weaker than a straight ilevel increase in all situations besides tank accessories, which are only relevant because fending accessories are poorly designed and you can meld primary stats to accs anyway.

All of this succeeded at their goal of slowing down world first raid clears and has also simultaneously hurt the game's raiding community more than anything since launch, because while FCOB world first happened startlingly fast the majority of the people who raided in 2.X still took several months to clear T13, and this was on the coil tier that was widely agreed to be the easiest. Raiders are a minority of the players of the game, and Lucrezia-tier raiders are a vanishingly small minority of raiders, so designing every single thing related to the one true endgame raid based on an extremely small minority of another minority ends up alienating a huge number of people, particularly when the previous raid was midcore friendly (you'd just progress more slowly than hardcore players) and you only get four fights every six months that require you to even remotely try to play decently.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Lol I know you shouldn't compare a MMO with a single-player game, but since there are people in this forum that like comparing the two, I might as well use it against them.
I even said laughed at comparing the two, but I'm guess you read over it without noticing it...assuming you even read my post.

There is no can't in video games. It is a matter of want

Some content need to lock behind the hardcore crowd. It gives anything players can work towards.

You are right. Endgame isn't just for the hardcore, just the raid aimed at the hardcore crowd.
Now if you think endgame is only raids, then you have another problem.

I will say it Alexander Normal shouldn't exist. It should be another raid with equal difficulty

Oh about what you said about your and mine satisfaction, yours doesn't affect mine. Even if it did, I could care less just as long as your content isn't redundant

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There is a can't in video games. I can't play games at work, and when I come home I often have more work to do (as a teacher I end up doing a ton of grading at night after I get home) in addition to making myself dinner and cleaning my house before getting to bed in a timely manner so I can be up in the morning. Due to my schedule I can't spend an hour waiting for a raid group to form, even a static because life happens. And then I can't spend two hours raiding if I want to be up in the morning so I can keep my job, my apartment and the little free time i do get to spend playing games. Just because other people may have a luxury of time does not mean that we all do.

And the "I don't care about your satisfaction" attitude is what makes these debates pointless and endless.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Raiders: "We need harder raids. I don't care about gear and titles. I just want to tackle harder content."

SE: "OK we added a hard version of Binding Coil. The only new reward for it is a title, but we hope you enjoy the challenge.

Raiders: "But this is so hard! We really should at least get some sort of gear reward if we're going to do something this hard."

SE: "I thought you didn't care about that stuff. We gave you harder content. Beating it is reward itself."

Raiders: "F*ck no!"

SE: O-Okay... For Alexander, we've made the regular version a little easier to ensure more players can see the story. For the harder version, we've added gear and a special mount.

Raiders: What is this!? My gear is only marginally better, and the only difference is dye!?!? If I don't have more special gear, titles, and special cutscenes to hold over the heads of casuals and allow me to flaunt my superiority, then there's no point! You have to get rid of the normal mode!!!"

SE: "But during the 2.x series, you just said that it's not about the material rewards..."

Raiders: "It isn't"

SE: "..."

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Adjusted that a bit for you. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Velox

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It's funny how in these threads you always see the casuals posting immature stuff like this while the oh so evil raiders are having actual discussions on how to fix aspects the game.

What a lot of non-raiders ignore is that you are not entitled to see every content the game has to offer if you don't work for it. If you don't beat the hardest content in the game, you don't deserve to have the best gear and should not see the story/get the glamour/mounts/whatever, simple as that. And before someone says "but I pay 15 bucks a month so I am entitled to have all the things you filthy elitist swine!!!!" - Nope. You pay to get access to play on SE's servers.


99% of the game has always been and still is casual content, and there are actually people in here that have the audacity to ask for the removal of that 1% of content that is made for the hardcore crowd and in the same sentence, call raiders egoistic because they'd like to have that 1% of the game for themselves and not ruined by the implementation of something like a normal mode. What a joke.

Pssh I don't even touch Alex NM again after I got all healer gear except top and bottom because of the RNG and loot RNG (and weekly loot too). I even not bother with Savage too.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Raiders: "We need harder raids. I don't care about gear and titles. I just want to tackle harder content."

SE: "OK we added 2 versions of the raid to accommodate everyone, and easy version and a hard version."

Raiders: "But all the filthy casuals have similar gear and can watch all the cutscenes now."

SE: "I thought you didn't care about that stuff. We gave you harder content. Beating it is reward itself."

Raiders: "F*ck no! If I don't have gear, minions, mounts, titles, and special cutscenes to hold over the heads of casuals and allow me to flaunt my superiority, then there's no point!"

SE: "But you just said that it's not about the material rewards..."
Raiders: "It isn't"

SE: "..."

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

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Originally Posted by Velox

Raiders: "We need harder raids. I don't care about gear and titles. I just want to tackle harder content."

SE: "OK we added a hard version of Binding Coil. The only new reward for it is a title, but we hope you enjoy the challenge.

Raiders: "But this is so hard! We really should at least get some sort of gear reward if we're going to do something this hard."

SE: "I thought you didn't care about that stuff. We gave you harder content. Beating it is reward itself."

Raiders: "F*ck no!"

SE: O-Okay... For Alexander, we've made the regular version a little easier to ensure more players can see the story. For the harder version, we've added gear and a special mount.

Raiders: What is this!? My gear is only marginally better, and the only difference is dye!?!? If I don't have more special gear, titles, and special cutscenes to hold over the heads of casuals and allow me to flaunt my superiority, then there's no point! You have to get rid of the normal mode!!!"

SE: "But during the 2.x series, you just said that it's not about the material rewards..."

Raiders: "It isn't"

SE: "..."

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Adjusted that a bit for you. :rolleyes:

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LOL, thanks for the good laugh, both of you, though I expect some wont see the humour, irony, or truth...

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Originally Posted by Elazu

It's funny how in these threads you always see the casuals posting immature stuff like this while the oh so evil raiders are having actual discussions on how to fix aspects the game.

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Whats the matter? Too much irony and truth for comfort?

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Originally Posted by Elazu

It's funny how in these threads you always see the casuals posting immature stuff like this while the oh so evil raiders are having actual discussions on how to fix aspects the game.

What a lot of non-raiders ignore is that you are not entitled to see every content the game has to offer if you don't work for it. If you don't beat the hardest content in the game, you don't deserve to have the best gear and should not see the story/get the glamour/mounts/whatever, simple as that.

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Whoa, whoa, whoa! Am I really seeing this right now? Let me remind you that the developers added an extra difficulty level (i.e. Savage) because players ASKED FOR IT. What makes you think just because they added an extra level of difficulty, that players who choose not to play that new difficulty don't deserve anything?

Edit: To make myself clear, I am not advocating that the best gear should not be exclusive to Savage. But to deny players the opportunity to see the story? That's just selfish.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Savage Alexander sucks because the difficulty spike in A3S is monstrous and seems to exist solely to stop Lucrezia and other groups of that level from repeating what they did in FCOB and destroying the raid tier within the week. They succeeded at this, but its frankly a completely pointless concern and it seems like a lot of the worst design decisions in Heavensward happened solely to slow down the absolute best players in the game...

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I can't agree with this enough.

The difficulty is no longer a fun form of challenge that I found myself having in A1S and A2S. The only reason I'm continuing to attempt it is because it's a group activity, not a rewarding activity in and of itself.
I legitimately haven't heard any positive feedback about A3S. Just a lot of frustration and woes.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Edit: To make myself clear, I am not advocating that the best gear should not be exclusive to Savage. But to deny players the opportunity to see the story? That's just selfish.

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Well, if that's the way it's set up, then "them's the breaks." You would "deserve" whatever reward Square decided to set by completing the challenge set to earn that reward.
This isn't the case with Savage Alexander, so it really isn't a problem.

Again, what differentiating factor here makes gating the Loot okay, but makes the story not okay? Is it a matter of personal preference? Does the playerbase as a whole (and in a matter that doesn't intend to grossly generalize millions of players) value story over loot? I do not see a convincing argument that such a tangible difference between the two somehow justifies one over the other.

The fact so many people in these forums bear a furious unending grudge against a minority of players that literally only get four boss fights every six months (at best) to play with would be funny if it wasn't so sad. This is one of the most casual MMOs that exist, the massive majority of the game is designed for accessible casual play. Asking for the one proper raid in the entire game to not be a horrid mess shouldn't even affect you, specially since most people actually want the raid to be less overtuned, not more.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Again, what differentiating factor here makes gating the Loot okay, but makes the story not okay? Is it a matter of personal preference? Does the playerbase as a whole (and in a matter that doesn't intend to grossly generalize millions of players) value story over loot? I do not see a convincing argument that such a tangible difference between the two somehow justifies one over the other.

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Let me flip the question. Why is it okay to remove the story? Should we retroactively remove the cutscenes from Binding Coil of Bahamut and Second Coil of Bahamut so newer players can only see them if they play Savage?

Why should we gut the original version of the encounter to accommodate the newly added difficulty level?

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Again, what differentiating factor here makes gating the Loot okay, but makes the story not okay? Is it a matter of personal preference? Does the playerbase as a whole (and in a matter that doesn't intend to grossly generalize millions of players) value story over loot? I do not see a convincing argument that such a tangible difference between the two somehow justifies one over the other.

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"them's the breaks."

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

The fact so many people in these forums bear a furious unending grudge against a minority of players that literally only get four boss fights every six months (at best) to play with would be funny if it wasn't so sad. This is one of the most casual MMOs that exist, the massive majority of the game is designed for accessible casual play. Asking for the one proper raid in the entire game to not be a horrid mess shouldn't even affect you, specially since most people actually want the raid to be less overtuned, not more.

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that's not what you people are asking for though.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

What a lot of non-raiders ignore is that you are not entitled to see every content the game has to offer if you don't work for it. If you don't beat the hardest content in the game, you don't deserve to have the best gear and should not see the story/get the glamour/mounts/whatever, simple as that. And before someone says "but I pay 15 bucks a month so I am entitled to have all the things you filthy elitist swine!!!!" - Nope. You pay to get access to play on SE's servers.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

99% of the game has always been and still is casual content, and there are actually people in here that have the audacity to ask for the removal of that 1% of content that is made for the hardcore crowd and in the same sentence, call raiders egoistic because they'd like to have that 1% of the game for themselves and not ruined by the implementation of something like a normal mode. What a joke.

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are 90% of the people screaming to have alex savage removed?
to have gear from savage given in NM?
to have the mount drop obtainable in other ways?
No.

the only ones asking for removal of content are you 1%er.
all I see is you people asking for NM to be removed.
pathetic. What a joke.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Let me flip the question. Why is it okay to remove the story? Should we retroactively remove the cutscenes from Binding Coil of Bahamut and Second Coil of Bahamut so newer players can only see them if they play Savage?

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Because the design of this game often has you, the player, overcome a challenge, circumstance, or grind for a reward. The reward could be many things. loot and story included.
I am not advocating removing anything from content as it stands. I'm asking why many would find gating story to be "selfish" or negative, but gating gear to be fine.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Why should we gut the original version of the encounter to accommodate the newly added difficulty level?

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I am not actually in favor of this. I would prefer that the normal version have minimal, if any, interaction with the more difficult savage version.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Asking for the one proper raid in the entire game to not be a horrid mess shouldn't even affect you, specially since most people actually want the raid to be less overtuned, not more.

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I guess what worries me the most was relic wpn and coil were the two things that you could do at max level, and was actually long lasting content. Now, for most people, Alexander is just something you do for an hour each week to get your free prototype gear. And relic still doesn't even exist yet, not sure why they held out on the relic for 5 months lol.

SE is really shooting themselves in the foot right now, especially since a lot of people are playing other games atm. I'm finding myself firing up steam more and more these days instead of FFXIV. The game really needs more content that can't be zerged through in two hours.

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Originally Posted by Ulathskullsplitter

Sounds to me like most raiders only raid so they can show off their e-peen. And now that most of that has been taken away leaving just the challenge itself most raiders dont want to challenge themselves if they dont have ways to show off while most other players are locked out of the content.

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Sounds to me you don't know what you are talking about. Putting normal mode into the gear progression path, it came out before eso gear, made it mandatory to gear up ready for savage. Which killed off the story (albeit the story imo is lackluster in comparison to coil) and the sense of discovery. IF the bosses in savage would have been different totally than normal that would have satisfied that sense of discovery. Otherwise it is just repeating the exact same content minus the trash at an increased gear check difficulty.

Personally I would have preferred if Alex normal was released when they normally nerf+echo the current top raid, and instead add that so you have the original challenge of savage for those who come later and want to experience the full challenge and the story version for those who want to catch up or just experience the story as I remember those asking for a story mode of coil were fine with not having any gear from it.

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

Also the gear...what where they thinking giving the same piece of gear set for NM and HM only Dye-able? it is a huge let down since before enyone who had a piece of TANK chest from FCOB was impressive and made me drop my jaw before I could get it....
now I see alexander gear and I can only but feel it old and uninteresting since everyone and their mother has them...

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people asked for dyable gear in savage coil, now they got dyable versions of raid gear and they are still unhappy

sooo i'm a bit confused on the this so called difficulty spike in AS3- if its the small RNG factor- that's easily handled by nullifying (holmgang/tempered) as much of those mechanics as possible. and discussing in advance what if scenarios- for on the fly adjustments

Alexander's storyline is not as exciting then Coils and removing Normal Mode won't solve anything. Coils once you see the story once your just farming for gear and locking story and lore behind the hardest content is poor game design. The real problem with Alexander Savage is there is no clear progression to push Casual players that might want to challenge Alexander Savage after completing Alexander Normal Mode.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

It's funny how in these threads you always see the casuals posting immature stuff like this while the oh so evil raiders are having actual discussions on how to fix aspects the game.

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It's funny how you choose to perceive my position on said content from a post without knowing who I am personally. It's ironic that my post comes from the mind of a raider and not the so-called "casual" you automatically label every person who disagrees with your viewpoint on this game.

I am a raider. I also think that 90% of the current raider base is full of whiny kids who have the same "me me me" mentality that you are so poignantly against. As per this sentence

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If you don't beat the hardest content in the game, you don't deserve to have the best gear and should not see the story/get the glamour/mounts/whatever, simple as that

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you have thus proved my point. You are just as much as fault as the people here who want complete removal of the rewards from raiding, or raiding altogether.

"But Velox, surely you can't actually disagree with both the filthy casual crowd AND the filthy raider crowd, can you?" Why yes, yes I can, because all of you who represent these extremes are the representatives of the misinformed, the ignorant, and the greedy.

I'm all for Savage rewarding higher tier gear, that's the only logical outcome to perform well in a fight that REQUIRES said gear. Hell, I'm perfectly fine with even a title or a minion as a reward at the end so that there's at least one carrot on the stick to chase after. However, that being said, I am 100% against any locking of story behind hardcore raiding in FFXIV. Notice the end of that previous statement is "...in FFXIV." I say this because, FFXIV itself is a game designed around story. Story is the singular most important aspect of the game. It's not a raid-driven game, not a PvP-driven game, not a sandbox-driven game, nor a crafting-driven game. It's not even a PvE-driven game. It's all about stories. FFXIV is a novel playing out, with lots of spin-offs and sequels. People who play FFXIV play for the story, first and foremost. FFXIV was DESIGNED for the story, first and foremost. Does FFXIV have all these other amenities? Of course it does, all MMOs should, but they are not and never will be the primary focus of the game.

You can lock as many material goods out of raids as you want and have as many tiers of difficulty as you want, but story should NEVER be something excluded from anyone who plays this wonderful game.

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Originally Posted by repoe

sooo i'm a bit confused on the this so called difficulty spike in AS3- if its the small RNG factor- that's easily handled by nullifying (holmgang/tempered) as much of those mechanics as possible. and discussing in advance what if scenarios- for on the fly adjustments

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Suffice it to say. You are doing one of the greatest oversimplifications of the fight, of anything in this game really, that I've ever seen. It has an immense RNG factor, and the cooldowns you've listed are not only not up frequently enough to respond to mechanics that can wipe the raid, but often raid-ruining mechanics are not even avoidable by the tank.

I'd recommend watching a clear video to actually understand the fight, because what you've just said doesn't apply in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

I get that alexander (NM) was made for people to be allowed to see the lore behind it and (SV) for the challenge.....F@#$ that!

(IMO) NM killed SAVAGE or any desire to attempt to beat it, COILS and the story behind it + gear was what motivates me to push me and my group every day to overcome this hard challenges and IT WAS SATISFAYING .

there was nothing better to look up that incredible CS of LUIXOIS vs BAHAMUT after t12 or revealing all the ending and what was behind everything at the end of T13 hell even seen bahamut behind the first coil was amazing.

Also the gear...what where they thinking giving the same piece of gear set for NM and HM only Dye-able? it is a huge let down since before enyone who had a piece of TANK chest from FCOB was impressive and made me drop my jaw before I could get it....
now I see alexander gear and I can only but feel it old and uninteresting since everyone and their mother has them...

whit these 2 things gone and have no sense of achievement nor reward there's no reason or motivation for me to jump anymore on SV since I already have the gear from NM already saw the story and I will just replace it with the next set of 24 man dungeon or ESO...

please make raid interesting again... people are doing savage because it's considered the current raid and not the "extra challenging" raid, NM was a little joke that could be cleared on the first day...


suggestion: I just tough about what can be done to improve this, maybe.... MAKE ALTERNATIVE or EXTENDED CT that reveals just a little more information of what's coming next, kinda like every game HARD mode that unlocks secret ending that will be a + for me. and maybe not dropping NM gear just leave the gear for (SV)

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Actually, what killed Savage Mode is it's kinda boring and relies ALOT on very strict DPS checks, that quite frankly, aren't as interesting as Binding Coil or it's mechanics ever were. Now you could blame some of this on the 'surprise' factor being diminished by 'Normal' mode, but the reality is, the raid really isn't that well-written to entice more people to put forth the effort currently.

As to 'normal mode' killed the drive, you could ALSO look at it as 'Normal mode' is keeping people only interested in the story and not the grind OUT of your queues, lessening your frustration. Does that maybe mean less people are doing Alex Savage? Yeah probably. But the folk who ONLY want the story...not the challenge...not the loot etc, aren't the people you want to play with anyway.

Still, the complexity is far less than what we had in any of the BC series.

Heck COIL can still be current if you do smaller groups/lower ilvl etc...and is still more fun than banging your head for epeen in Alex Savage.

Savage really just isn't worth the time investment over all at the end of the day.

And I would argue if coil lacked this much invention/dynamic play, it too would have been less played.

.I love the saltines of this sea of literally 90% of the poster here who didn't even bother to read beyond the title and choke themselves in their own ego so hard they couldn't even understand what I meant.

PLEOPLE! it is not and NEVER WAS about TAKING OUT NM OR GATING STORY BEHIND SV. it was about not having a reason to do SAVAGE since NM already gives everything you can get for less effort and time making it undesirable to do. hence I was asking for a reason to do this content.

like I said on my original post will be, ADD a little extra story behind it like a secret ending that it's only possible to see in HARD mode of any game ANYTHING to make us the raiders a sense of accomplishment GEAR should be the reward for CLEARING the hardest content per definition, To have the best gear you should work for it. having that gear look exactly the some as the content that can be easily farmed takes "that" accomplishment down even if it's 230 if it looks like a lvl 5 robe of casting instead of some well designed shit that when you look at your character you actually feel that you fucking did it, it will feel just boring and cheap knowing it will be replaced soon, mostly end up as glamour that you can easily get from the easier lvl....

again...is not about NM is about to make SV desirable to do... right now it's not doesn't have anything that will make me waste my time on it. If you can't agree with such a simple concern then try think a little harder than your own self.

again is not about cutting anyone off.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

people asked for dyable gear in savage coil, now they got dyable versions of raid gear and they are still unhappy

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read just a little harder I couldn't give less than 2 f$%@ if the gear is dyable or not, what I'm talking about is that everyone has the gear we are being "rewarded" with from the highest content that looks exactly the same of the cheap easy version... It's not as rewarding since stat wise, will be replace in the few patches and glamour wise you can easily get it from the easy version, so what's the point of having that gear?

The problem is that this solution is only a one time thing.

Once people finish it once and only once that person will have no more reason to return to the place.

Helping other players reach that cutscene for that one time experience? Nope, plenty of people will just say find your own group.

Coil currently is suffering from such issues where hardly anyone, outside of your own FC, is willing to help people go through Coil for the storyline because they already beating it themselves for the cutscenes.

If such a solution would work then Coil would not be in its current state.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

snippity snip snip
I'd recommend watching a clear video to actually understand the fight, because what you've just said doesn't apply in the slightest.

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perhaps- only having two actual full raid days in as3 with all members and already getting to P4 alongside any extra practice i get filling in as a pug, i haven't had a great deal of P4 practice but i still don't honestly see any RNG issues that quick reactions and communication cant overcome. but as i said- i haven't had great deal of practice in final phase yet, come Tuesday i may be back on this thread eating my words. the Holmgang/Tempered comment was intended solely for dealing with Wash away when @ hand split- since RNG liked to knock both me(war) and the Drk to same spot.

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Originally Posted by Taei

Sorry to ruin your perception, but most statics are not groups of friends, you should pay attention to your PF more often. Getting rid of statics and unlocking content actually would allow you to play with more than 7 other friends

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Statics are about the people more than the content. I have run statics on multiple occassions in multiple MMOs, running a static with a few friends now in fact, and I can tell you right now, if you don't get along with the people in your group then you ain't gonna get jack done in game.

Using party finder to fill a spot when someone can't play anymore really doesn't prove anything, honestly I'd kick someone from a static if no one got along with them even if they were good, and most static leaders are the same. You don't want a douche in your group bringing the mood down and ruining the fun, you want someone nice you can be friends with.

Sorry you've apparently had bad experiences, I hope I never run into your luck. A consistent group of friends makes everything more fun.

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

PLEOPLE! it is not and NEVER WAS about TAKING OUT NM OR GATING STORY BEHIND SV. it was about not having a reason to do SAVAGE since NM already gives everything you can get for less effort and time making it undesirable to do. hence I was asking for a reason to do this content.

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NM gives item level 210 gear? News to me.

Raiding is always about and should always be about the social experience above all though. As stated to the person above, clearing difficult content with friends is just tops. But if you don't care for the social experience of raiding or the gear, then the content may just not be for you and you should be happy a story mode exists.