More Horizontal Progression please

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

snip

---

Oh how I miss the days of using a template builder to figure out what the best possible pieces I could use to get stats I wanted, around a couple of pieces of gear I really wanted. Then spending months trying to farm all of them, and I'd usually get to run around for a few weeks or at most a couple of months in that gear, then they'd add more gear, potentially with gear that would fit just slightly better for my template... so I'd recalculate again, farm again.

Difference is that each update, I didn't have to refarm my entire set, I had pieces from vanilla that I was still using in endgame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

People keep using this argument but then why are the more horizontal (non-pvp based mmos) the longest living mmos out there still.

---

Because people are gullible. It's very, very easy to convince yourself that if you just keep playing, you're sure to get your drop tomorrow or the next day-- and see? That guy over there got his, so surely you'll be next. And you can keep telling yourself that for months on end because the drop rate is just high enough that you can see other people getting what they want.

You get so focused on that that you don't even realize that you're no longer having any fun, because you keep telling yourself that it will be fun again once you finally get your drop. That's why people stick around in those games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Because people are gullible. It's very, very easy to convince yourself that if you just keep playing, you're sure to get your drop tomorrow or the next day-- and see? That guy over there got his, so surely you'll be next. And you can keep telling yourself that for months on end because the drop rate is just high enough that you can see other people getting what they want.

You get so focused on that that you don't even realize that you're no longer having any fun, because you keep telling yourself that it will be fun again once you finally get your drop. That's why people stick around in those games.

---

That's pretty much how I played Lineage 2. Tried to go back a few months ago and just quit immediately lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Because people are gullible. It's very, very easy to convince yourself that if you just keep playing, you're sure to get your drop tomorrow or the next day-- and see? That guy over there got his, so surely you'll be next. And you can keep telling yourself that for months on end because the drop rate is just high enough that you can see other people getting what they want.

You get so focused on that that you don't even realize that you're no longer having any fun, because you keep telling yourself that it will be fun again once you finally get your drop. That's why people stick around in those games.

---

I have a lot of fun farming drops if they make me powerful. A lot of people do, that is why they like Diablo style of games, it just used to be a concept for MMOs as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Because people are gullible. It's very, very easy to convince yourself that if you just keep playing, you're sure to get your drop tomorrow or the next day-- and see? That guy over there got his, so surely you'll be next. And you can keep telling yourself that for months on end because the drop rate is just high enough that you can see other people getting what they want.

You get so focused on that that you don't even realize that you're no longer having any fun, because you keep telling yourself that it will be fun again once you finally get your drop. That's why people stick around in those games.

---

I will take farming sky or seas over alexander savage any day of the week.

It is not being gullable it is actually enjoying content that is not designed to be throw away or bash your head against the wall for 500hrs to clear it.

I do not understand how anyone can enjoy raiding (if you can even call it that) in XIV. Oh BOY I can't wait to get on to spend 4hrs tonight getting 1/2 more of a phase into the 9 phase boss.... WoW such fun........................

Oh and did I mention after the 300-500 hrs spent... your gear it worthless in probably 2-4 months after you get it. So enjoy wasting all your time on "Vanity gear" in the end. But do not worry in the next even patch you can bash your head against the wall all over for new gear... that is the same Garbage with a few more stats on it.

SUCH FUN!

Who are the gullible ones... The people who are trying to get gear that will permanently better your character. OR People who are getting gear that is vendored in 3 months while spending = amounts of time getting said gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

I will take farming sky or seas over alexander savage any day of the week.

It is not being gullable it is actually enjoying content that is not designed to be throw away or bash your head against the wall for 500hrs to clear it.

I do not understand how anyone can enjoy raiding (if you can even call it that) in XIV. Oh BOY I can't wait to get on to spend 4hrs tonight getting 1/2 more of a phase into the 9 phase boss.... WoW such fun........................

Oh and did I mention after the 300-500 hrs spent... your gear it worthless in probably 2-4 months after you get it. So enjoy wasting all your time on "Vanity gear" in the end. But do not worry in the next even patch you can bash your head against the wall all over for new gear... that is the same Garbage with a few more stats on it.

SUCH FUN!

Who are the gullible ones... The people who are trying to get gear that will permanently better your character. OR People who are getting gear that is vendored in 3 months while spending = amounts of time getting said gear.

---

Not to mention fighting one boss the same way that never changes over/over can be mentally exhausting. Its like a Job, except you pay them instead of getting payed. Lol.

I'd like to see some more sets of gear at the maximum item level, at least. Give us a third or fourth set of 210 gear with varying secondaries, there are more options both for optimization and for glamours. The reason horizontal progression isn't that popular anymore compared to vertical is that vertical is much better at keeping people subscribing (or at least, it seems to be in the post-WoW MMO field).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taei

Right now I don't see the game lasting for more than 2 years if it stays on course.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Release date(s) Microsoft Windows August 27, 2013

---

???????????

You forget that EQ and FFXI also had the problem of *having* to put that many hours in it or you couldn't get anywhere or do anything.

I once dated a guy that played EQ1 in high school.

Court *took his computer away* because he refused to go to school, because otherwise he'd fall behind from his raid group.

You *had* to spend those long hours.

People don't have time for that and when they have a feeling of "well shit, I'm not getting anything done", the quit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I have a lot of fun farming drops if they make me powerful. A lot of people do, that is why they like Diablo style of games, it just used to be a concept for MMOs as well.

---

Diablo 3(and to an extent 2) don't have complete shit drop rates, and D3 I can go buy items for any given slot from the blood shard merchant.

you're farming for ideal stats there, not the drop itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

You forget that EQ and FFXI also had the problem of *having* to put that many hours in it or you couldn't get anywhere or do anything.

I once dated a guy that played EQ1 in high school.

Court *took his computer away* because he refused to go to school, because otherwise he'd fall behind from his raid group.

You *had* to spend those long hours.

People don't have time for that and when they have a feeling of "well shit, I'm not getting anything done", the quit.

---

Wrong for EQ, you could powerlevel and have high levels help you in EQ. As long as you had friends or were nice to people you could ask for help. EQ had one of the most helpful communities in the MMO industry. Honestly, it also had some of the worst trolls too, however people expected it. They treated it more like a virtual world then a game. Your voice and opinion mattered and if you did troll and disrespect other players nobody liked or helped you. These days with dungeon finder and all that reputation means ::[[LOL]]::.

Raiders are all like that though, but raiding in EQ with 72 man raids was something else. You literally had to take *shifts* in your raid force because there were large lockouts and the zones took 3-4 days to clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

You forget that EQ and FFXI also had the problem of *having* to put that many hours in it or you couldn't get anywhere or do anything.

I once dated a guy that played EQ1 in high school.

Court *took his computer away* because he refused to go to school, because otherwise he'd fall behind from his raid group.

You *had* to spend those long hours.

People don't have time for that and when they have a feeling of "well shit, I'm not getting anything done", the quit.

---

Thats really hardcore, prolly the reason why they put that message before you play ff11 each time you start up.

This game could definitely use some variation in its gear, through introducing more stats or amplifying job abilities through gear, and it would do a lot to make each piece of gear feel unique.

But a lot of people in this topic have some serious rosy tint to their glasses when they talk about ffxi. That game was just as much of a grind fest as this one, with the added bonus of sometimes going literal years without seeing certain drops. I'm much happier with this games loot system than I ever was with xi's

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Raiders are all like that though, but raiding in EQ with 72 man raids was something else. You literally had to take *shifts* in your raid force because there were large lockouts and the zones took 3-4 days to clear.

---

And this is good for players how?

Seriouisly. Do you have any idea how effing stupid that even sounds? if you had to do that kind of stuff for RL jobs, your boss would be fired here in the US for running a sweatshop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

And this is good for players how?

Seriouisly. Do you have any idea how effing stupid that even sounds? if you had to do that kind of stuff for RL jobs, your boss would be fired here in the US for running a sweatshop.

---

It doesn't sound right to me at all. I thought it was stupid. Developers did too is why they remade them to be 24 man raids and not take as long. =P However, everything else in that game. (sides OLD raiding.) was perfect. Pretty much perfect honestly.

I liked SWG a lot better with its multi-class multi-gear component, base component, sub-component, randomized loot, randomized resource randomized mission system.

Being able to make a house and place it anywhere and being able to make your own city and become mayor. No instances all open world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

And this is good for players how?

Seriouisly. Do you have any idea how effing stupid that even sounds? if you had to do that kind of stuff for RL jobs, your boss would be fired here in the US for running a sweatshop.

---

Um, that's how all 24 hour stores work, and also most construction jobs that need be finished ASAP, people work their shifts, then get some rest, and come back for their next shift.

Only reason those super large scale, 8+ hour raids are no longer the norm, is the bad press SE got when a raid to take down a boss took over 18 hours and people started getting sick.

I however, do miss those large scale raids, where it took you the whole evening to finish it. Now it's just 8 hours bashing your head against the wall on the same boss, to get 1/2 a phase closer to the kill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lawlHT

This game could definitely use some variation in its gear, through introducing more stats or amplifying job abilities through gear, and it would do a lot to make each piece of gear feel unique.

But a lot of people in this topic have some serious rosy tint to their glasses when they talk about ffxi. That game was just as much of a grind fest as this one, with the added bonus of sometimes going literal years without seeing certain drops. I'm much happier with this games loot system than I ever was with xi's

---

One of the things that people forget about in FFXI was camping HNM. King Behemoth, Nidhogg, and Aspi dropped some of the best items in the game. On average they would only spawn once a week and sometimes would have upwards of 10 or more groups camping them. None of these HNMs were hard at all but getting the claim against everyone else in the zone was. So yes you had 1 chance a week and most of the time you didn't get to fight the boss because your group didn't win the claim.

This is why FFXIV system of instances is much better because everyone gets to fight the bosses and gets loot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

One of the things that people forget about in FFXI was camping HNM. King Behemoth, Nidhogg, and Aspi dropped some of the best items in the game. On average they would only spawn once a week and sometimes would have upwards of 10 or more groups camping them. None of these HNMs were hard at all but getting the claim against everyone else in the zone was. So yes you had 1 chance a week and most of the time you didn't get to fight the boss because your group didn't win the claim.

This is why FFXIV system of instances is much better because everyone gets to fight the bosses and gets loot.

---

That is also why its boring because everyone gets everything. EQ2 fixed the issue by putting those bosses into large Open World Dungeons that took awhile to get to the bosses and if you just stood there the npcs would eventually overwhelm you.

So you had to get lucky and catch the bosses up, camping them was .. doable but you had a time limit before the room's enemy npcs over-ran you. Each NPC had their own unique skills/abilities they ran though and "strats" to kill them. With pathing/querky grouped mobs which had unusual social aggro.

Honestly. If they had a week spawn then they should be next to impossible to kill. Like harder then A4 Savage. Those were Avatars, most raids even the best could not kill them and there were 7 and they spawned, and despawned if you did not kill them fast enough. Completely random spawn timers too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

-snip-

---

I'd much rather spend a month learning a fight and progressing than killing the same mob over and over again and getting absolutely nothing to show for it. At least one of those two things is fun; the other is just mindless grinding. I would put on a TV show and then go spend a couple of hours camping a zone in RO and killing mobs when they spawned to farm for drops. There was no interaction, no skill, nothing other than mindless button-mashing.

I'm perfectly happy replacing gear every 2-4 months because it at least is tangible progress. It's not fun to go 2-4 months without getting a single mob drop, which happened to me and many other people I know who played RO. I'm not exaggerating when I say that drop rates on the most desirable items were in the .02% range. That's how they kept people coming back, as there was really no other reason to keep playing the game once you'd gotten the best gear.

In contrast, in FFXIV, gearing up is a result of running content rather than the ultimate goal. I never have to deliberately try to cap tomestones; it always just happens as a result of doing things with my friends. That is how gear progression should be-- part of the game, not the entire purpose of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

snip.

---

None of that reflects anything remotely resembling player-friendly content. Random spawn timers mean that if you're not playing 24/7 there's a good chance you're going to miss the monster even spawning, let alone seeing any drops from it. Instanced content alleviated a lot of the down time spent doing absolutely nothing in game, and gives players the ability to tackle content at their own pace, whenever they're able to play. Yes we have to sacrifice some of the feeling that came with open world content, but it was a necessary step to make sure that players didn't have to abandon their real lives in order to progress in the game

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gralna

Um, that's how all 24 hour stores work, and also most construction jobs that need be finished ASAP, people work their shifts, then get some rest, and come back for their next shift.

Only reason those super large scale, 8+ hour raids are no longer the norm, is the bad press SE got when a raid to take down a boss took over 18 hours and people started getting sick.

I however, do miss those large scale raids, where it took you the whole evening to finish it. Now it's just 8 hours bashing your head against the wall on the same boss, to get 1/2 a phase closer to the kill.

---

No, that's not how 24 hour stores work.

Your boss doesn't call you at 4 am to get your ass online to kill that boss.

Quote:

---

That's how they kept people coming back, as there was really no other reason to keep playing the game once you'd gotten the best gear.

---

And this is the summary of that.

The only thing there was the gear chase. That's the only thing that kept it relevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lawlHT

None of that reflects anything remotely resembling player-friendly content. Random spawn timers mean that if you're not playing 24/7 there's a good chance you're going to miss the monster even spawning, let alone seeing any drops from it. Instanced content alleviated a lot of the down time spent doing absolutely nothing in game, and gives players the ability to tackle content at their own pace, whenever they're able to play. Yes we have to sacrifice some of the feeling that came with open world content, but it was a necessary step to make sure that players didn't have to abandon their real lives in order to progress in the game

---

Why does content have to be friendly? If its too easy its done way too quickly. The content should be hard and rewarding so it feels like you have to slow down and appreciate the rooms and work they put into the dungeons. In EQ2 most raids could not pass the first 2 bosses of zones, but they were meant to be more casual and easier then the rest. However it made people feel like they were progressing in the zones because they got enough good gear and got better and then started to take on harder bosses. They just didn't sit in one boss and "DIE" to it over/over/over.

It rewarded you when you succeeded, and when you failed it didn't reward you at all.

In this game, if you fail you get rewarded, if you succeed you get minor rewards that will be outdated in a month. GG.

There's an enormous difference between content being difficult and content being inaccessible because you don't spend every waking minute in front of a computer screen. There's no skill involved in waiting for a random spawn to occur, just an enormous amount of free time sunk into doing absolutely nothing at all

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lawlHT

There's an enormous difference between content being difficult and content being inaccessible because you don't spend every waking minute in front of a computer screen. There's no skill involved in waiting for a random spawn to occur, just an enormous amount of free time sunk into doing absolutely nothing at all

---

Uhm. Mistmoore Castle was a very harsh dungeon. However to get to a named mob it only took 20 minutes and the respawn times in the zone were 10-30 minutes. With placeholders and there were many nameds. All of them dropped good loot. Just an example, some were BiS for Legendary. It wasn't time-consuming, just hard. If your group failed or wiped you had to start all over again, so you had to be careful.

Your "Instances" are nothing more then a sham, sure it makes sure everyone gets loot. However, now your dungeons have no meaning and do not last. They are always going to be the same and lack a great deal of thrill and excitement. You don't even care about people your in the zone with because of duty finder and your in a group of strangers.

In Open World dungeons, you are not strangers. You are friends and the other players are rivals, you are watching every single thing other players are doing and because there are other players fighting you feel more immersed into the world.

Instances, are the worst thing to happen to MMOs. Might as well call it a Multiplayer Online game, its not massive anymore.

Of course, there were instanced dungeons too. However they didn't reward the set pieces you needed. Chestplate and Leggings were Open World only with helmet being in the hardest dungeon at the time: Unrest, a dungeon that took almost an hour and a half to finish.

I miss adventures with friends and the challenge of fighting my way down a dungeon and fighting nameds with unique skills, having to deal with them KNOWING IN 10 MINUTES the room will be full of baddies again! If we have to fight both we wipe, if we run we wipe...

It felt real to me.. because honestly. Your in a dungeon and your killing monsters but EVERYTHING happens the same way, in an almost comical way it seems uncannon to me. Your going to face a dragon general and he only throws a handful of minions at you... what about the ones flying above? Why are they not helping?

I haven't made a single friend in dungeons since I've played, nore do I remember their faces or names. I don't know a single person because quests are all solo quests and don't require help. I don't know anyone in the game besides who got me into the game and people I roleplay with.

In EQ, that was different.. I knew everyone and remembered their faces and names. I remembered their patterns. I "KNEW" them.

FFXIV, is the most anti-social MMO game I have ever played. That is a real honest statement.

Honestly however.. it was Mistmoore freaking Castle, a castle FULL of vampires.. you think it should be easy to just waltz in there uninvited?

Quote:

---

FFXIV, is the most anti-social MMO game I have ever played. That is a real honest statement.

---

You must not have ever played WoW then.

And yes, FFXIV *does* feel very asocial, but not for the reasons you've given. I've elaborated on that in other threads, and this is not the place for that discussion.

I'd also suggest going back to EQ, but if I remember right there's a reason you're not there. You have a reputation.

That's a weird opinion, I've not seen anything anti-social about this game. I spend 90% of my game time talking to somebody.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

You must not have ever played WoW then.

And yes, FFXIV *does* feel very asocial, but not for the reasons you've given. I've elaborated on that in other threads, and this is not the place for that discussion.

I'd also suggest going back to EQ, but if I remember right there's a reason you're not there. You have a reputation.

---

WoW didn't start off with a Duty Finder, and whilst a lot of people were trolls and hate filled. It still had the need to go into groups for raids and such. It became more anti-social yes. However its still more social then FFXIV.

Also, the reason I am not playing EQ is because its deadish and outdated. The graphics are so outdated now that i've played other games its hard to play anymore. My new computer also has trouble running it because it only supports 1 core.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

That's a weird opinion, I've not seen anything anti-social about this game. I spend 90% of my game time talking to somebody.

---

Not anti-social. Asocial. There's a difference.

There are very few chances at chance meetings of people. You literally have to go out of your way to look for people to associate with.

I've never had this problem in other games. 99% of my friends list and guilds over the course of my 12-13 years of MMO gaming have come from general chat channels and "friend of friend" connections. And the originator of those "friend of friend" connections are usually from general chats.



Found my main raid guild in Wrath of the Lich King by talking to folks in General chat in Dalaran, and met their recruitment officer in a completely off topic discussion from said chat channel.

Met one of my best RL friends in EQ2, he was an officer in the first guild I ever joined there, they were in level chat recruiting for a HQ run in Nektulos doing the Shiny Brass Halberd quest. Met another good friend of mine there, simply from replying to his banter in 1-9 chat. RIP Troubor, you poor sod. Still kicking myself for not going up to see him while I was his area. :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

WoW didn't start off with a Duty Finder, and whilst a lot of people were trolls and hate filled. It still had the need to go into groups for raids and such. It became more anti-social yes. However its still more social then FFXIV.

Also, the reason I am not playing EQ is because its deadish and outdated. The graphics are so outdated now that i've played other games its hard to play anymore. My new computer also has trouble running it because it only supports 1 core.

---

No, it didn't, but you also didn't need to do dungeons for anything. You could still level straight to cap and get rather decent gear *without* doing a single one.

And if your computer is having issues with a single core game, then I don't know what to tell you other than "you don't know how to optimize your PC/game".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

Of I'm not mistaking,... The mmo RIFT started dungeon finder. Correct me if I'm wrong someone

---

No. World of Warcraft first added the dungeon finder in 2009 during Wrath of the Lich King. Rift launched in 2011.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

Not anti-social. Asocial. There's a difference.

There are very few chances at chance meetings of people. You literally have to go out of your way to look for people to associate with.

I've never had this problem in other games. 99% of my friends list and guilds over the course of my 12-13 years of MMO gaming have come from general chat channels and "friend of friend" connections. And the originator of those "friend of friend" connections are usually from general chats.



Found my main raid guild in Wrath of the Lich King by talking to folks in General chat in Dalaran, and met their recruitment officer in a completely off topic discussion from said chat channel.

Met one of my best RL friends in EQ2, he was an officer in the first guild I ever joined there, they were in level chat recruiting for a HQ run in Nektulos doing the Shiny Brass Halberd quest. Met another good friend of mine there, simply from replying to his banter in 1-9 chat. RIP Troubor, you poor sod. Still kicking myself for not going up to see him while I was his area. :/



No, it didn't, but you also didn't need to do dungeons for anything. You could still level straight to cap and get rather decent gear *without* doing a single one.

And if your computer is having issues with a single core game, then I don't know what to tell you other than "you don't know how to optimize your PC/game".

---

That is because in EQ2, especially before they tried to make the game more casual you needed a group for pretty much everything. Even open world questing. You needed atleast 3-4 people with you, but it didn't really need a group setup, it was just safer and easier to do quests.

It was a very immersive and social game. Its too bad its "dated", "dead" and doesn't run well on my machine anymore.

FFXIV I will give, has probably some of the most beautiful graphics and character models and animations i've seen in any MMO to date.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

Not anti-social. Asocial. There's a difference.

There are very few chances at chance meetings of people. You literally have to go out of your way to look for people to associate with.

I've never had this problem in other games. 99% of my friends list and guilds over the course of my 12-13 years of MMO gaming have come from general chat channels and "friend of friend" connections. And the originator of those "friend of friend" connections are usually from general chats.



Found my main raid guild in Wrath of the Lich King by talking to folks in General chat in Dalaran, and met their recruitment officer in a completely off topic discussion from said chat channel.

Met one of my best RL friends in EQ2, he was an officer in the first guild I ever joined there, they were in level chat recruiting for a HQ run in Nektulos doing the Shiny Brass Halberd quest. Met another good friend of mine there, simply from replying to his banter in 1-9 chat. RIP Troubor, you poor sod. Still kicking myself for not going up to see him while I was his area. :/



No, it didn't, but you also didn't need to do dungeons for anything. You could still level straight to cap and get rather decent gear *without* doing a single one.

And if your computer is having issues with a single core game, then I don't know what to tell you other than "you don't know how to optimize your PC/game".

---

I can't offord a new CPU atm, but i'm running a 6 year old one that is pretty good.

Cores "DO" have problems running one core games, because it wants to run all the cores but the game forces it to run one.

Really? Even that I don't see...with all the people in Mor Dhona/Idyllshire constantly talking, and with how small the game world is, I run into people all the time. Meanwhile when I played WoW I would never run into anybody because the game world was much larger, there was only a handful of times I ran into anybody I knew or met someone and became friends, and everytime it was always in orgrimmar. In XIV, it's happened everywhere nearly and much more often due to the 'smaller' areas and more generalized idle locations, as well as party finder.

I guess I don't understand this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

WoW didn't start off with a Duty Finder, and whilst a lot of people were trolls and hate filled. It still had the need to go into groups for raids and such. It became more anti-social yes. However its still more social then FFXIV.

Also, the reason I am not playing EQ is because its deadish and outdated. The graphics are so outdated now that i've played other games its hard to play anymore. My new computer also has trouble running it because it only supports 1 core.

---

Of I'm not mistaking,... The mmo RIFT started dungeon finder. Correct me if I'm wrong someone

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Really? Even that I don't see...with all the people in Mor Dhona/Idyllshire constantly talking, and with how small the game world is, I run into people all the time. Meanwhile when I played WoW I would never run into anybody because the game world was much larger, there was only a handful of times I ran into anybody I knew or met someone and became friends, and everytime it was always in orgrimmar. In XIV, it's happened everywhere nearly and much more often due to the 'smaller' areas and more generalized idle locations, as well as party finder.

I guess I don't understand this point.

---

Sure, they are talking. However, you don't need them to do anything. You don't feel danger when exiting the city. You don't feel any excitement. There is no challenge to the zone, the shout is probably talking about politics or something stupid. They are names and faces you forget.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

Of I'm not mistaking,... The mmo RIFT started dungeon finder. Correct me if I'm wrong someone

---

I didn't say WoW invented it. WoW barely invented anything, pretty much copied most of its ideas from everyone else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Sure, they are talking. However, you don't need them to do anything. You don't feel danger when exiting the city. You don't feel any excitement. There is no challenge to the zone, the shout is probably talking about politics or something stupid. They are names and faces you forget.

---

So like every other MMO today then.

The days where the open world is dangerous and requires multiple people to traverse through is long gone and won't return. Difficulty of that kind is seen as nothing but an inconvienence, blame today's lazy gamers. At least in this game you have fates and raid encounters.

I'll echo the sentiment someone mentioned earlier about XIV having the worst stat itemisation in any MMO I've played. They were aiming for simplicity but just made it far too basic, to the point where your rotation/gameplay at i170 is the same at i210. Because all pieces of gear are just stat sticks. There are no added procs on gear. There are no unique skill/spell modifiers which make X preferable to Y under condition Z. There are no situational pieces to switch up in order to adapt to boss mechanics in a specific raid. Healer BiS is all the same whether you need heavy AoE healing, single target healing, HoTs, shields, dps, survivability, mass status removal - you wear the same stuff.

It's for this reason alone that horizontal progression will not work well in this game, and why vertical progression is somewhat underwhelming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

So like every other MMO today then.

The days where the open world is dangerous and requires multiple people to traverse through is long gone and won't return. Difficulty of that kind is seen as nothing but an inconvienence, blame today's lazy gamers.

---

The sad truth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

So like every other MMO today then.

The days where the open world is dangerous and requires multiple people to traverse through is long gone and won't return. Difficulty of that kind is seen as nothing but an inconvienence, blame today's lazy gamers. At least in this game you have fates and raid encounters.

---

It's amusing when people use this as an excuse, they never refer to themselves.

"I feel you but there's this bunch of people who can't stand actual mmos these days. There's a lot of them even though, but I'm not actually one of them! And...I'm gonna stand up for them even if I don't see eye to eye with them."

Wait, no, it's not amusing at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Is horizontal gearing really just the same gear with slightly different attributes?

---

Basically yes, the problem at least to me is that this game isn't unique enough to offer horizontal progression in terms of gear. We do not have anything but the base stats to work with so there is nothing to really add on, maybe one set will give det and crit but the other might give det and skill speed. I only relate to XI because that was my MMO but in terms of that game you had "Enhanced X" which really made you want it. Here there is nothing like that, at least not yet.

BTW, WoW had it's dungeon finder system before Rift even launched.

Even if SE bent to your whims, the bean-counter forum would still make sure everyone had to have one optimum set of gear or get put on the "Do Not Play" list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hayward

Even if SE bent to your whims, the bean-counter forum would still make sure everyone had to have one optimum set of gear or get put on the "Do Not Play" list.

---

Actually, it'd be a little worse than that. If we had solid horizontal progression options, the bean-counters would insist that you have ALL of the optimum sets of gear.

Bean-counter: Eh, so you're a BRD, eh? I see you have Orichalcum Earrings of Aiming; that's good for most stuff, but you're planning on doing instance X, right? Hope you have Alabaster Earrings for the reduced Blunt Arrow recast. Don't forget you'll need your Eldrich Earclasps to turn your elemental attacks into physical damage; you won't be using them in instance X, but Y comes after and you'll need it there for sure, thanks to the boss's magic resistance. Now, let's talk about the REST of your gear...

I'd welcome this kind of thing, actually - so long as we had the inventory space to accomodate it all...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Actually, it'd be a little worse than that. If we had solid horizontal progression options, the bean-counters would insist that you have ALL of the optimum sets of gear.

Bean-counter: Eh, so you're a BRD, eh? I see you have Orichalcum Earrings of Aiming; that's good for most stuff, but you're planning on doing instance X, right? Hope you have Alabaster Earrings for the reduced Blunt Arrow recast. Don't forget you'll need your Eldrich Earclasps to turn your elemental attacks into physical damage; you won't be using them in instance X, but Y comes after and you'll need it there for sure, thanks to the boss's magic resistance. Now, let's talk about the REST of your gear...

I'd welcome this kind of thing, actually - so long as we had the inventory space to accomodate it all...

---

That isn't Horizontal Progression. That is forced Vertical Progression. There is no other choice if one choice is 100% better.

Like for example, why go into a dungeon with an ilvl150 book when you have a ilvl200 book? There is no choice there, one is 100% better.

You must of been playing pretty bad games if that is what they made you do.