NIN -- how does everyone else feel we're doing?

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I have no issue with trick attack honestly. It's rare that I miss the buff honestly and it is frustrating but I like it as it is.

The real handicap with ninja is the mudra lag. It prevents the class form being played as intended and can significantly drop dps if it is substantial enough. The mudras need to be client side but I honestly don't think the developers care enough about the issue to fix it which is kind of sad because ninja is my favorite class.

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Sure its rare but it still should be changed its archaic all other instances of this were removed. (Look at the dragoon fiasco)

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

NO one with intelligence could give a crap over the LOL DRAGOON stupidity.

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And you miss the point of me mentioning it. Namely that jump fails were prevalent enough to warrant becoming a stereotype, while Trick Attack fails are rare enough to not be a stereotype or unimportant enough to be noticed.

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GO back and look at what you quoted

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I don't need to. You wanted to apply a fail mechanic to Litany (even though range can be enough of a fail mechanic) because you, for some reason, think that DRGs don't have fail mechanics. You ignored Jump, which can outright kill a DRG if, as you put it, shit happens.

So, as I said, you can have another fail mechanic on Litany when your most frequently used OGCD has a chance to kill you if bad things happen.

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I have this feeling like you don't even play any of the classes you're talking about.

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I don't main them, no. That's what allows me to look at it objectively rather than the whole "Grass is greener on the other side" thing you've got going for you. I actually officially main Warrior now, so you're welcome for applying your debuff for you.

However, given you complained about how "no one can think objectively", it seems odd that you would try to call someone out for not playing them when playing the classes, and especially maining one of them, would more likely actually bias your arguments because you'd have subjective experience with the class instead of speaking from a purely objective standpoint.

Allow DE and AE to combo off shadowfang ^^/

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And you miss the point of me mentioning it. Namely that jump fails were prevalent enough to warrant becoming a stereotype, while Trick Attack fails are rare enough to not be a stereotype or unimportant enough to be noticed.

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Appearently you don't know that the loldrg stigma comes mainly from FFXI, the Jump thing was merely used to relive what is old.
It's not something that came up only because drg died when using jump at the wrong time.
So it's very unlikely that another job will take the lolcrown as it doesn't even come from this game in the first place.

Besides looking objectively at classes doesn't work. I wouldn't dare to tell a Bard how to play just because I think I know what is right and what is wrong.
Objectively I thought the only problems ninjas face would be the TP problem and Mudra lag, once I got it to 60 I got the whole picture.
Thats also the reason why I shut up about Dragoons, I wouldn't even think about telling them whether they are right or wrong when it comes to their skills because you can only know that much about a job when you haven't even played it at 60.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Appearently you don't know that the loldrg stigma comes mainly from FFXI, the Jump thing was merely used to relive what is old.
It's not something that came up only because drg died when using jump at the wrong time.
So it's very unlikely that another job will take the lolcrown as it doesn't even come from this game in the first place.

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Fair enough, no, I didn't know that because I didn't play FFXI. (Although it's also arguable about whether that matters.)

Happily, that does not change the fact that a mistimed Jump can kill the DRG and nobody laughs at the Ninja for missing Trick Attack, so my point still stands.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Happily, that does not change the fact that a mistimed Jump can kill the DRG and nobody laughs at the Ninja for missing Trick Attack, so my point still stands.

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That might be due to the fact that missing Trick attack is no laughing matter, while watching a Dragoon jump into his death does look funny. Blame the animation.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

That might be due to the fact that missing Trick attack is no laughing matter, while watching a Dragoon jump into his death does look funny. Blame the animation.

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Or it might be because nobody really notices the difference.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Happily, that does not change the fact that a mistimed Jump can kill the DRG and nobody laughs at the Ninja for missing Trick Attack, so my point still stands.

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It really doesn't.
Jumps are part of DRG gameplay. It's a core thing they need to work around.

Trick Attack is a raid cooldown, it's not similar and it have a positional is not really a big part of NIN gamplay since it's only once a minute.
Exactly the same point that DRG's Jump is something that's propagates a previous stereotype while NIN's TA is not as apparent shows why they're on a different level of comparison.
Not to mention Jumps were reduced before and then again recently in HW.

It's not about who has the most pass fail mechanics. It's about where those mechanics are.
DRG itself had a similar mechanic which they phased out because it's just clunky.
Moreso, Trick Attack acts as a raid dps CD.
Personal failures should kill you or affect your dps, but it should affect something like a raid cd's ability to activate.

But then, it's also not dependent on only the NIN.
If the tank moves unexpectedly, the whole raid suffers the dps loss. It's not even their CD to manage and they can make it fail.
It's okay you might lose some positional dps because of that, but not that kind of CD.

A DRG jump fail is completely on them.
A TA fail might be on the tank, which is not even something they should be responsible for.

TA is only once a minute, but the design just isn't good.
It's expected that Jobs are responsible to activate Raid CDs at the right time or within the right range.
But the raid shouldn't lose the 10% Vul Up because of a missed positional regardless if it's once per minute.

The effects being based on positionals just aren't great.
Fail mechanics are fine, that's just a good implementation of it.

Your comparison is taking two things that aren't comparable and linking them as fail mechanics.
But that's not looking at all the fail mechanics of both classes so it's a flawed comparison.
The original analogy was Battle Litany with TA which are comparable.

I don't think that Pluvia's point was that Battle Litany actually needs a fail mechanic.
It was that it would be ridiculous if it had one, because a raid cd shouldn't need something as nuanced as a positional which can be affected by factors outside your control.

TA having the effect not based on positional isn't going to change gamplay much.
You still lose 160 potency if you miss it. It would just mean the raid doesn't lose out because the NIN or Tank messed up or something unexpected happened in the raid.
Raid shouldn't lose out a CD like that because of those situations. The NIN can lose out or die, but TA shouldn't be affected.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Your comparison is taking two things that aren't comparable and linking them as fail mechanics.

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That would be false, because I didn't compare Jump and TA. I compared Jump and Ninjutsu.

Pluvia suggested adding a fail mechanic onto Litany (even though it already has one in the form of range).

I said it was a fair addition when Ninjas have an increased chance to die when using their most common OGCD.

After all, if we're going to enforce fail mechanics on raid buffs across all classes, then we should also enforce increased vulnerability on OGCDs across classes too. To be fair.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

That would be false, because I didn't compare Jump and TA. I compared Jump and Ninjutsu.

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You took a comparison of two raid CDs, then said that NIN's ninjutsu should get a survival mechanic because of a raid CD change.
It's nonsensical.

I think you're confused mostly because you think adding a fail mechanic to Battle Litany was a sincere request.
It obviously wasn't. This isn't about DRG or NIN having enough fail mechanics.
It's about raid CDs not having this type of fail mechanic.

Range is obviously an acceptable one.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I think you're confused mostly because you think adding a fail mechanic to Battle Litany was a sincere request.
It obviously wasn't. This isn't about DRG or NIN having enough fail mechanics.

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I think you're confused because you think making people die during ninjutsu was a sincere request.

What makes you think that adding a fail mechanic to Litany was insincere but that adding a vulnerability to ninjutsu was completely sincere?

Is it because you agree with the Ninja and automatically have to be against anyone arguing?

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I think you're confused because you think making people die during ninjutsu was a sincere request.

What makes you think that adding a fail mechanic to Litany was insincere but that adding a vulnerability to ninjutsu was completely sincere?

Is it because you agree with the Ninja and automatically have to be against anyone arguing?

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Oh, you caught me.
That must be it.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

NO one with intelligence could give a crap over the LOL DRAGOON stupidity. GO back and look at what you quoted You quoted what you wanted and brought in jump comparisons When i did no such thing I was comparing 2 raid utilities Trick attack and Battle litany.
Obviously you fail to understand That when people who are asking for QoL buffs aren't asking for dps increases.

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This, please SE, stop stacking SS on our gear or lower the TP costs on Shadow Fang, Mutilate, or Armor Crush, whatever. Also Mudra lag :<

Personally, I would like to use AE more often, since there isn't always going to be a WAR along with the group to slash debuff. Its optimal to have a WAR of course, but its just dumb to assume everything is pinpointed down to perfect play and time. For TA, I would like the debuff to still apply EVEN if the positional requirement wasn't met since its not a PERSONAL dps boost but a GROUP dps boost. Now with TA being a minute long CD, if someone were to fail it, they would lose a total of 180 + 160 potency, since suiton vs raiton and TA INITIAL potency vs BONUS potency, so for potential lost of 340 potency AND 10% dps boost to GROUP, I believe it would only be fair that the debuff be applied for just the lost of 340 potency.

A big request would be to change at least one of the two enmity control skills NIN got from HW. It could be changed into a skill to help the tp issues NIN has in long drawn out fight, or changed to a new DPS skill, but regardless the enmity skills has close to little to no use. Dwad and Duality CD are pretty long CDs for how little they provide, but they can stay the same honestly, if they gotten buffed, then complaints would shift somewhere else about the skills, most likely PvP.

And mudra lag... doubt it's ever gonna be fixed, just gotta deal with it sadly.

As someone that plays NIN, ST dps SHOULD be lowered than MNKs since we boost GROUP dps. AoE and TP issue should really be fixed a bit though.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

This, please SE, stop stacking SS on our gear or lower the TP costs on Shadow Fang, Mutilate, or Armor Crush, whatever. Also Mudra lag :<

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I approve of this.

@ Square Enix, please solve Mudra lag.Thank you.

P.S. TP

P.P.S ninjas rock!

I personally would be fine if NIN became strong on the utility side than the DPS side. I mean, BRD can be Support-DPS while NIN can be Utility-DPS. It adds something different to the group instead of have three jobs act the same (NIN, DRG, MNK).

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I personally would be fine if NIN became strong on the utility side than the DPS side. I mean, BRD can be Support-DPS while NIN can be Utility-DPS. It adds something different to the group instead of have three jobs act the same (NIN, DRG, MNK).

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If that's the case they shouldn't have added positionals for NIN to be more like MNK and DRG.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

If that's the case they shouldn't have added positionals for NIN to be more like MNK and DRG.

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NIN is still far-less positionally based than the other two melee, and significantly so. Almost all of a NIN's time can be spent on the rear, with an occasional swap to the flank every 30 seconds or so for Armor Crush. Honestly, the positional addition was so minor, I'm not even sure why they bothered, but they probably feared MNKs especially ultimately resenting how much they have to move in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I personally would be fine if NIN became strong on the utility side than the DPS side. I mean, BRD can be Support-DPS while NIN can be Utility-DPS. It adds something different to the group instead of have three jobs act the same (NIN, DRG, MNK).

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I feel like they want NIN to be DoW utility, particularly Tank support with Goad, Shadewalker and Smoke Screen.
It would be more apparent if Hate wasn't trivial in most cases.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I feel like they want NIN to be DoW utility, particularly Tank support with Goad, Shadewalker and Smoke Screen.
It would be more apparent if Hate wasn't trivial in most cases.

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Shadewalker is decent enough, though I can't for the life of me figure out why they felt we needed two enmity toys. Shadewalker used at the beginning of a fight should cement enmity on the tank enough that it shouldn't be an issue beyond the opener. Even in the case of a tank death, Shadewalker can help to steady things again just fine.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Shadewalker is decent enough, though I can't for the life of me figure out why they felt we needed two enmity toys. Shadewalker used at the beginning of a fight should cement enmity on the tank enough that it shouldn't be an issue beyond the opener. Even in the case of a tank death, Shadewalker can help to steady things again just fine.

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Shadewalker is great, I'm not underselling it.
PLDs could really use it to cement hate since they have more issues with that.
DRK and presumably WAR can use it to skip into putting up their debuffs on the target as opposed to building at the start.

Even Smoke Screen is good for a solo-ing whm when the SCH is mostly dpsing.
Though 2 abilities is overkill, it does highlight us as a Tank's best friend in addition to tanks being the Goad targets and sharing slashing damage with them (plus WAR synergy).

Just the way the content is designed makes the hate abilities ignorable.
Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. They are helpful but I don't think it would be good if they made it so that Tanks needed a NIN to hold Hate.

As it stands, it's okay. NIN's are pretty good Tank support, kind of like BRD-MCH to healers.
Even if most don't like to admit it.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Shadewalker is great, I'm not underselling it.
-snip-
As it stands, it's okay. NIN's are pretty good Tank support, kind of like BRD-MCH to healers.
Even if most don't like to admit it.

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Definitely. I honestly like it. I liked the way Trick Attack worked in FFXI, and Shadewalker fills a similar role. Smoke Screen would probably be more useful if it were an instant enmity drop, though I do suppose it would have been useful for Medica II-happy WHMs back in the days of Titan EX's relevance. (If I had a dollar for everytime he turned around and used Mountain Buster on the whole party...)

shadewalker is a good emnity skill and i like it but smoke screen... i hate that skill. it would be nice if it was instant emnity drop but i really think it should just be replaced with something to help NINs out with tp as some of the other melee classes can recover TP now. The HW gear is like Oprah Winfrey on SS which is annoying. DE needs an extension on it so we can get the chance to use AE more often then with Duality or unless there is a warrior in the party (which you hope they keep Storm's Eye up) and AC should be combo'd off of shadowfang, makes more sense imo.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I feel like they want NIN to be DoW utility, particularly Tank support with Goad, Shadewalker and Smoke Screen.
It would be more apparent if Hate wasn't trivial in most cases.

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I can do that. Since I still play NIN (many NINs I know went DRG), if this mean that groups WANT/NEED me there for this reason, I'm happy.

So- I'm not super experienced in all the new content yet.

I just find the general lack of cool attacks pretty unsatisfying. My boyfriend plays DRG and all his cool dragons flying around and how much he gets to move around for his skills makes me feel SUPER lame.

After learning more about how useful my new ninja skills are for parties I cut them some slack but overall I feel like the story line for our job and the skills given just aren't up to the same standard as DRG.

Our kit is just so calm vs others atm. Too much utility for my taste, it adds helpful things but if I wanted to be helpful I wouldn't be a murdering Ninja! :P

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Originally Posted by Ziral

*snip*

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If it makes you feel any better, NIN are wanted in endgame because they give a slashing debuff that the tanks will benefit from and Trick Attack is a great DPS boost.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

If it makes you feel any better, NIN are wanted in endgame because they give a slashing debuff that the tanks will benefit from and Trick Attack is a great DPS boost.

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Meh more like trick attack and goad is why we're wanted Warriors are even wanted more so they cover the slashing debuff.

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Originally Posted by Ziral

So- I'm not super experienced in all the new content yet.

I just find the general lack of cool attacks pretty unsatisfying. My boyfriend plays DRG and all his cool dragons flying around and how much he gets to move around for his skills makes me feel SUPER lame.

After learning more about how useful my new ninja skills are for parties I cut them some slack but overall I feel like the story line for our job and the skills given just aren't up to the same standard as DRG.

Our kit is just so calm vs others atm. Too much utility for my taste, it adds helpful things but if I wanted to be helpful I wouldn't be a murdering Ninja! :P

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Having played Corsair (COR) a lot in Final Fantasy XIV, I loved utility > dps. I also was a NIN tank. I am a NIN now in FFXIV, and I love the utility.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Meh more like trick attack and goad is why we're wanted Warriors are even wanted more so they cover the slashing debuff.

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Why is it that WAR has priority over NIN for the debuff? They both do 100 potency. Many enemies don't heal themselves. Is it so NIN can focus on other combos for greater damage?

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Why is it that WAR has priority over NIN for the debuff? They both do 100 potency. Many enemies don't heal themselves. Is it so NIN can focus on other combos for greater damage?

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That's exactly it, yes. The potency gap between Dancing Edge and Armor Crush/Aeolian Edge is larger than the gap between Storm's Eye and Butcher's Block, so less overall damage is lost if the WAR prioritizes the debuff instead of the NIN.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Why is it that WAR has priority over NIN for the debuff? They both do 100 potency. Many enemies don't heal themselves. Is it so NIN can focus on other combos for greater damage?

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Warriors end up having to do Storm's Eye combo for their best DPS anyway, because Maim leads into it and Maim is a crucial part of their DPS.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Warriors end up having to do Storm's Eye combo for their best DPS anyway, because Maim leads into it and Maim is a crucial part of their DPS.

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Also because the difference between dancing and aeolian is 60 pot and for a warrior its basically 0 (the alternative is a butchers but like.. they need maim and the debuff so \o/ )

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Originally Posted by Alahra

NIN is still far-less positionally based than the other two melee, and significantly so. Almost all of a NIN's time can be spent on the rear, with an occasional swap to the flank every 30 seconds or so for Armor Crush. Honestly, the positional addition was so minor, I'm not even sure why they bothered, but they probably feared MNKs especially ultimately resenting how much they have to move in the long run.

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Indeed, still doesn't make much sense to add positionals to a class they're gearing more towards utility, regardless of the reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Why is it that WAR has priority over NIN for the debuff? They both do 100 potency. Many enemies don't heal themselves. Is it so NIN can focus on other combos for greater damage?

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So we can use our dmg combo instead of using dancing edge,

sometimes the warrior lets his storms eye fall off and doesn't reapply it quickly, this really bothers me as a nin and I am forced to use DE if the warrior sucks at reapplying Storms path,

For the most part storms path/eye forget the name, is on, but every once in a while playing with a warrior I have to use my DE... it's like a punishment for us nins, double dancing edge damage or double the dancing edge debuff timer.