Lets Talk About UNDERCUTTERS!!!!

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Originally Posted by IzzyData

Ahahaha. Ok. You do that. Unless you have infinite gil that is only a temporary change and if you drop all your own prices enough all you are doing is throwing away gil out of spite. Then the next day it will be back to normal.

Imagine this situation in real life and realize how absurd of a notion that is.

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Sure, until you realize I have more gil than 95% of the server and can afford to keep prices low. Enjoy never selling anything.

HA ha I love undercutting especially when you see hides that are selling for 1k to 1.5k then start selling several stacks but for like 500 gill less than the going price..... oooooh I bet that ticks a lot of people off.

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

When my inventory space gets tight and it is more often than not, and both my retainers have 20 items up for sale, I will sell stuff WELL BELOW MARKET value, too bad for you. Buy it and resell if it wads your knickers. If I want to buy something and I need gil fast...guess what, I price it to sell fast.

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Obnoxious indeed, if you do something like that in a market that will sell fast regardless of the current price.
If 50 items sell each day, then placing one at half price isnt going to make it sell faster.
That should be obvious to you already, or you wouldnt have your retainers maxed on selling slots all the time. If they sold faster they wouldnt be full, would they.

Sometimes it works a little different because price matters. If you can sell 50 adamantite nuggets on the MB for 100k each, it might take awhile to sell. Well then someone comes along and they can sell 5000 adamantite nuggets for 50k each and they all sell right away because its a better price point that people will actually pay steadily. In the end though it doesn't matter anyways Gil is so worthless unless your buying a house you can't buy anyways.

The people whoa actually hurt others are not the ones who drop prices, it is those who try keep prices high by buying everything and reselling it. I do not need to gouge my fellow player, I consider how much time or effort is required for me to get an an item and I sell it accordingly, just becuase someone cornered the market and bough everything and is trying to sell it for a ridiculous amount is no reason for me to do the same. In RL I get whatever I can because my family depends on me, in game I just don't care about how much gil I have and never will. I play to get away from that crap. Go ahead and profit from IQ deficiency or generocity, I do not care how you label me.

If not for the undercutters you would never be able to buy some minions that drop from dungeons. 2 mill plus for minions is just bad.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Obnoxious indeed, if you do something like that in a market that will sell fast regardless of the current price.
If 50 items sell each day, then placing one at half price isnt going to make it sell faster.
That should be obvious to you already, or you wouldnt have your retainers maxed on selling slots all the time. If they sold faster they wouldnt be full, would they.

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I have all DoH and DoL over 50, I play multiple classes and have tons of gear. There is not enough space for me, and I craft tons of stuff per day because I am leveling, so is everyone else, the market is crazy atm. One day something sells 35k the next day 5k. You know what thought, upsetting the likes of you makes me happy. It is good to know I am upsetting a tool when I give someone else a good deal. You make my day.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Obnoxious indeed, if you do something like that in a market that will sell fast regardless of the current price.
If 50 items sell each day, then placing one at half price isnt going to make it sell faster.
That should be obvious to you already, or you wouldnt have your retainers maxed on selling slots all the time. If they sold faster they wouldnt be full, would they.

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It shouldn't bother you then. Buy it and relist it if you are so confident it will sell.

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Originally Posted by HakaseNyan

I love these kinds of threads. Someone is upset because they can't control what another players does, and so they insist on adding a layer of control they believe will benefit, or deemed fair by, them.

If the market stops being free, then let's have the players with loads of gil pay higher taxes. :^)

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Let's drink a virtual beer together. Cheers

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...read_again.jpg
happen after each patch with new mats/recipes

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Originally Posted by IzzyData

I put things on the marketboard for 1 gil on purpose because I feel like it would be worth more to someone else to use for crafting for basically free than for me to vendor it or throw it away. I so often have to clear out all my bags full of nonsense and instead of throwing it away I assumed I was being a good person by giving it away in a convenient manner.

Yet somehow I'm actually upsetting people? People don't want free crafting materials or whatever?

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Shout in a populated zone like the Foundation or Idyllshire and give it away to anyone that wants it or vendor it, who knows... you might even make a new friend! There are always tons of 1 gil items up on the MB that never sell and it just sits there, wasting data space.

So the OP suggests colluding and price fixing as better for consumers then A free market of voluntary exchange and relative value. Ohh that's rights he doesn't care about consumers she just wants a profit. Seems legit.

Im not big on playing the market so it doesnt really effect me, however I always though developers should implement a minimum sale price for all items based on value.

I know we have all been brainwashed taught that the unregulated free market is gods gift to prosperity, and I agree to some extent... but that only works in the real world. The real world being where every gatherer and/or manufacturer HAS to price their time at least high enough to where he makes enough to pay his bills and feed his family. Doesnt really work in a market where all your work is basically just time spent wasting time no matter what you do.

In other words... of course im going to undercut you how ever much I want, the hell do I care? Even if I lose gil, oh well, a lot of the time its worth it just to make sure I get rid of it.

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Originally Posted by Nikkori

I mean, come on, we all have done it once in a while, undercutting someone by a few gil, just to get the quicker sale.. i speak of the people who sit there and undercut by hundreds, or thousands of gil, forcing prices to where its not even worth selling an item anymore, and just better off vendoring it off. We ALL want to make money, can't we all work together and come to some agreement?? Lets work together, and find a fair medium to charge at base minimum so that everyone can have a fair share at making some money.

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Well not sure how many are like me..I don't undercut to sell quicker..I undercut cause I think people overprice stuff too much so I sell for what I'm willing to buy something for. Maybe I'm cheap, but too much is too much to me.

hello mission.. i want to let you know you are not alone, i too sell my goods cheaper because i believe in a fair price while making a decent profit, but greed corrupts the weakest of minds, and they will call foul play when undercutting something that costs them 2k to make and the sell it for 50k.

i like to profit and i like to imagine the smile on the buyers face because they got a fair deal!

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Originally Posted by IzzyData

Isn't that normal since they are forced to make things to level up their job? It's always going to be a net loss since they have to make things people likely won't want or cost more than is worth it for most levels.

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Crafters are forced to make glamour items to level up? On balmung the Thavnairian Bustier has gone below 3 million gil while all the mats to make it cost more then 3 million.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Crafters are forced to make glamour items to level up? On balmung the Thavnairian Bustier has gone below 3 million gil while all the mats to make it cost more then 3 million.

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thats because when you gather the mats yourself you can make 100% profit, and can set the price only based on time spent and not gil spent ;)

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Originally Posted by Kayote

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I've done multiple research and case studies on it :P, so in my own research I agree that free market is best market. However I agree that the minim price for most things does not exist since the grind to get is the only variable to price (which is relative). In that way prices have no baseline since the market value is only set on supply and demand which can flux fast and easily.

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Originally Posted by IzzyData

Ahahaha. Ok. You do that. Unless you have infinite gil that is only a temporary change and if you drop all your own prices enough all you are doing is throwing away gil out of spite. Then the next day it will be back to normal.

Imagine this situation in real life and realize how absurd of a notion that is.

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Nah, it's not absurd in real life - that's exactly how monopolies often get their start. A company with plenty of money sells at a loss until their poorer competetors go bankrupt. Then, when they are the only one left, they jack prices up as high as they want. This kind of practice is justifiably illegal, and regulated, in most countries.

It IS absurd in game, for exactly the reasons you state. No player can control a market in game for long, because there is no entry cost. If a player tries to tank a market until everyone else is gone, then lift it up again - everyone comes right back, with no delay. Because why not? What's stopping them? In real life, you're stopped because you have to hire employees, buy a building, etc. In game, you just start crafting the relevant product again. And if the player tries to tank it again, you just ride it out again until they give up their silly notion of being an all-powerful tycoon.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Sure, until you realize I have more gil than 95% of the server and can afford to keep prices low. Enjoy never selling anything.

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Ooh, so scary! Yes, I'm sure you could make things very uncomfortable for people for a few weeks. Maybe even months if you really decided to get pissy, give up work or school or whatever, and just obsessively strangle every part of the market all day long for as long as you can! But eventually, Hurricane Kaori is gonna pass, and things'll be right back to normal. No matter how much money you have, you can only afford that kind of waste for a finite period of time.

You may have the gil, but you have no long term power. None.

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Originally Posted by Yoohre_WildRiver

thats because when you gather the mats yourself you can make 100% profit, and can set the price only based on time spent and not gil spent ;)

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Well I guess if they ok with losing gil as if they gathering it they could make more money selling the mats then making the item cutting out a step while still making gil.

I will confess to undercutting a little trying to sell my 1-tier materia faster, I wouldn't do it to higher level stuff though unless the prices were totally absurd and not being bought.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Well I guess if they ok with losing gil as if they gathering it they could make more money selling the mats then making the item cutting out a step while still making gil.

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Get exp for crafting, then sell it more than vendor... do not see a problem here, but that is just one reason. I also see no problems with undercutting I sell most stuff at the 100k mark 1k-5k less them normal to get guaranteed sale. The prices for something like materia IV already flux a good bit from week to week.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Well I guess if they ok with losing gil as if they gathering it they could make more money selling the mats then making the item cutting out a step while still making gil.

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you have more competition selling the mats, the bustier will probably sell faster?

also the bustier takes only 1 slot on my retainer "for sale" space. while selling all mats might net me in more gil in a long time window, in a short time window the bustier makes me more profit per sale slot.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Crafters are forced to make glamour items to level up? On balmung the Thavnairian Bustier has gone below 3 million gil while all the mats to make it cost more then 3 million.

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For something like that it makes sense that you couldn't just buy mats and make profit for little to no work.

~ Looks at MB, XYZ Fish is worth 500 Gil / Piece
~ Finds the Fishspot
~ Gets 50-99 of a Sort
~ Goes back to Retainer, looks up Prices ...
~ Rages since the Price went from 500 Gil / Piece to 50 Gil / Piece

Every frigging Day it's the same and I'm not talking about Fishing for Minutes... it's actually Hours and the effort was for nothing...

I think there are a few contributing factors to undercutting, especially in FFXIV.

1) Gil has almost no weight in this game outside of repairs, teleports, and food. Potions if you are a progressive static.
-There hasn't ever been a time in this game where I felt "broke." There's no need to post and sell for maximum gil value when you barely do anything with gil to begin with. You want a house? cool. Does it DO anything? not really.
2) We have a Market Board, not an Auction House.
-In Final Fantasy XI, you could view sale history but not what the current items on the AH were priced for. This game people more of a range to shoot for, rather than cut the next guy in line by hundreds or thousands of gil.
3) Everyone is like J.G. Wentworth. "It's my gil and I want it NOW!"
-People are impatient, and when again, gil as little value in this game, you might as well try to make the quickest buck possible. Whether you get maximum gil or a little less, you feel like you have the same either way.

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Originally Posted by Shadray

I like the undercutters keeps the price low for me.

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Even as a crafter-gatherer Im with this guy. If the price is higher than the buyer is willing to pay it just wont sell and theyll find an alternative. Secondly I hardly ever go by the current pricings as instead look at the history. Thats a better indication of an items desire to the rest of the server. I dont believe in artificially inflating prices up which even if you got away with it would only be temporary until someone realises theyve been had.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Crafters are forced to make glamour items to level up? On balmung the Thavnairian Bustier has gone below 3 million gil while all the mats to make it cost more then 3 million.

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The bustier isn't worth more than someone is buying if for, not what you are selling it for. You say it's "3 million" in mats, but if I'm crafting and run out of mats and prices are more than I'm willing to pay for it, then I get them myself. When I craft, I feel a bit more like the "people's crafter" ensuring fair prices for items. If you aren't willing to pay that much for an item that you can obviously make yourself, then why would you expect someone else to. Why would I spend 25K on some lvl 30 gear? Same thing for glamour. Would you pay 15 million for some lvl 1 shirt with no effect on gameplay? What ever you're willing to pay for it, is probably what you should sell it for. And if it doesn't sell (soon), then you're wrong and the item is worth less than you think.

I'm happy so many people have tons of gil. I do not and it pisses me off to see HQ gear that I really need being sold for hundreds of thousands [or more] leaving me no option but to settle for lower level/quality.
If I pick up HQ stuff which I cannot use from MSQ I always put it on the market for reasonable prices. Those of us who are not gillionaires, meaning anyone who has only recently started on a new world, simply can't afford your ridiculous prices.

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Originally Posted by Nikkori

I mean, come on, we all have done it once in a while, undercutting someone by a few gil, just to get the quicker sale.. i speak of the people who sit there and undercut by hundreds, or thousands of gil, forcing prices to where its not even worth selling an item anymore, and just better off vendoring it off. We ALL want to make money, can't we all work together and come to some agreement?? Lets work together, and find a fair medium to charge at base minimum so that everyone can have a fair share at making some money.

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If someone is selling a level 15 earring for 100k gil (which happens on Gilgamesh) I undercut it like crazy. Cause that is just dumb.

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Originally Posted by I_Punch_Bees

If someone is selling a level 15 earring for 100k gil (which happens on Gilgamesh) I undercut it like crazy. Cause that is just dumb.

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I never thought I would find someone that thinks like me.

Mei

no is not contradictory, regulated means that you cant go above certain amount or below a certain amount by regulation in between you are free to price as you wish as opposed as a controlled market, which would impose you a single and unique price and you cant change it at all (this in a nutshell) the supply and demand is the best way to go about, buyers detain the final say and in truth are the one that make the market prices and a buyer will ALWAYS buy the chepeast stuff..who wouldnt right ?

Mei

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Originally Posted by Onikimaru

And i don't understand why people feel they need to list things for soo much less than everybody else, it just pisses people off and drives the economy down, aren't we all here to make money?, obviously said undercutters are or they wouldn't undercut just to get their gil lickety-split

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Because demand is different at another price point and some people wants not to sell "this one item" at highest price but instead wants to sell as much as possible items with reasonable margin (total profit will be higher in this case). Most items are traded in volumes by seasoned crafters and one of the most important thing in volume trading is to know how to manage "time-to-sell" to prevent inventory/retainers selling ability stuffing.

For example - I craft and sell mostly consumable. But I craft them in hundreds per day and I prefer them sell in the very same day. So I will ignore guy who wants to sell his 10 potions as I know there is no demand at his price for 2 stacks of potions and drop price in half. Which still insanely overpriced but at least there some demand to cover my production volumes.

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Originally Posted by IzzyData

Ahahaha. Ok. You do that. Unless you have infinite gil that is only a temporary change and if you drop all your own prices enough all you are doing is throwing away gil out of spite. Then the next day it will be back to normal.

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You can maintain prices at break-even spot for infinite amount of time. And most crafters will leave eventually as there is no point in spending time on crafting if you have zero profit on it.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

everyone comes right back, with no delay

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There is a delay, sometimes in a span of weeks as market awareness is not given and most crafters, especially amateur ones does not constantly monitors market to see current situation with different goods.

I love them, they are nice people.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Crafters are forced to make glamour items to level up? On balmung the Thavnairian Bustier has gone below 3 million gil while all the mats to make it cost more then 3 million.

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1) There is only a finite, small, amount of people ABLE, let alone willing, to pay more than 5m for ANYTHING.
2) It's just vanity, nothing that actually helps you.
3) Mats are gathered = their price is completely made up by the gatherer.

Guess i need to specify what i meant, since it looks like so many people think i'm one of those idiot greedy people that sells things for rediculous amounts. my ranting was mainly directed at farmed items, and ones that can be fairly hard to come by. No where in my post did i ever advocate that it was "fair" to charge 100k for a 100g pair of earrings (have NEVER seen that, is that a thing somewhere???). i never stated any direct "what is fair" rules, though i saw some good suggestions to put a stop to rabid compulsive undercutters (making people pay a fee BEFORE the item goes on the board, is a great idea). If you aren't sure what i meant by what i said, please, don't assume what you want, i'm not stupid, nor am I a greedy person. I just want what i put in the work to collect to sell for a fair price, and things that are crafted, not be sold for 200x their price, or 3/4 of what the mats to make said item cost. Just saying there's a problem, that we could find an amicable solution to.

the whole reason i made this thread was to discuss about what could be done, or try to correct some of the problems there are, not to point fingers, and call people money grubbing jerkoffs or anything. so please, lets try and keep things on point, and not resort to finger pointing or putting people down. thank you.

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Originally Posted by Nikkori

I just want what i put in the work to collect to sell for a fair price, and things that are crafted, not be sold for 200x their price, or 3/4 of what the mats to make said item cost. Just saying there's a problem, that we could find an amicable solution to.

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But that's just the thing... what you consider a "fair price" is most likely overpriced. To you it's "fair" because when you crafted the item you bought the mats at X price and are selling the item at X + some % profit margin... but you bought overpriced mats. So to everyone else, your price is too high, even though it's may not be much higher than what you paid for the mats.

You have two options: buy up the cheaper items and resell them at the price you want to sell, or take a loss and learn your lesson not to buy mats right away at the beginning of an expansion.

Think of ppl you call undercutters as Garage Sale owners, just with a bigger customer base. If i ever want to ill sell for 1 gill just to spite others. You never realy own the property in game or any item, their value is determined by developer with how they placed its occurance in the game. Glammour stuff for me personaly is worth only the listed ammout on how much it costs to sell to vendor, all the millions attached to it are pure bubble economy. Vanity in this game is artificialy inflated by SE, just to sell those gil hoarders some sense of exclusivity.
I have only 2 retainers and i have on me at most 3mil and circulate 500-700k gil, if i have the item on me at the moment and have extra ressources to make ill sell it as fast as i possibly can, i dont care how will others think or what they think, ill undercut it by 1-100 gills all the time, just to get rid of it faster, for me most of the time its pure proffit because i dont buy ressources from MB to craft to sell, i gather to create what i need and maybe sell for some proffit.
And here in lies the problem if come back in a day and see that stuff hasnt sold and look other pricing i see massive price drop, i now immidialty that the price was inflated for greed purposes only, as you can see others can iand will lower their prices and many other hop in to sell that item and they can price it even lower and still proffit. It all points to those undercutter whiners and I curse them for their insatiable greed to sell just to hoard the gill.