Bard and how to fix it.

Problem is very obvious when you are looking for SS and BL proc optimization, repelling shot causing the next cast to interrupt and trying to quickly place flaming arrow

DPS is being lost just because the Job is SUPER clunky atm. :(

personally after seeing a lot of feedback on it (i don't have a bard yet) i think its less a problem of people needing to get good and more of a problem of people not liking the skill itself at all and as such is seriously hindering there progress in learning the skill. so i would recommend maybe instead of basically strong arming the bard into being a "singing black mage" that they make it where they have more choice in it. so like right now all there new skills are pretty much only useable in WM. why not instead of that they make it where all the skills are useable in either form but have different effects when not in WM so you are not essentially forced into a play style you don't like.

My xp up to A3 savage it seems like BRD/MCH are doing fine, even without a DRG. They are great for A1s, essential for A2s(10:30 fight, healers will need ballad and ninjas will need TP), havent gotten numbers from A3s yet since we havent downed but so far so good.

So for people worrying about not being let into groups you will be okay.

Your only gripe should be that if there is no drg and its a double melee comp mch is better than brd hands down.

Sorry if this has been posted before but it seems to me that if we removed the casting times all the flow issues would go away.
Since SE seems to want to make it less lucrative to DPS on the move, perhaps it can be replaced with the 30% bonus activating if you are still. That way one could transition seamlessly between not moving and buffed or moving and unbuffed as the situation needed instead of being punished. That would also make it so we don't need to worry about all of the GDC and OGDC abilities interacting poorly (and keeping the ease of mobility we all grew up with :D)?

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Originally Posted by ChalupaBatman

My xp up to A3 savage it seems like BRD/MCH are doing fine, even without a DRG. They are great for A1s, essential for A2s(10:30 fight, healers will need ballad and ninjas will need TP), havent gotten numbers from A3s yet since we havent downed but so far so good.

So for people worrying about not being let into groups you will be okay.

Your only gripe should be that if there is no drg and its a double melee comp mch is better than brd hands down.

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While yes, I somewhat agree that BRD is in an alright place in terms of stand still damage, it is clunky. Nothing about it feels right even in something like Faust. Before passing full judgment, I'd like to see how Skill Speed really affects the cooldown on EA, perhaps it will line up better with a round of shots rather then either waiting half a CD or pushing it back half a CD. It just doesn't work ATM with at the gear I am in (456 SS).

As for another major point you bring up however, that double melee comp. To have an ability that can be 100% or 200% better just by the group comp is mess up. Though not min-max, groups can essentially have 0 casters (aside from healers) There is no reason that an ability like foes can't be changed to just "lowers enemy resistance by 2%" (or even 1.5%) instead of just magic resistance by 10%. It then covers all group comps instead of benefiting one far more then another.

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Originally Posted by Kayko

There is no reason that an ability like foes can't be changed to just "lowers enemy resistance by 2%" (or even 1.5%) instead of just magic resistance by 10%. It then covers all group comps instead of benefiting one far more then another.

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5% physical / 5% magical dmg , MCH have to choose.... they shouldnt , why not both? :P

Emp Arrow should lower piercing resistance like Drg debuff , same goes for MCH (blank , remove knocback add 10%piercing )

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

5% physical / 5% magical dmg , MCH have to choose.... they shouldnt , why not both? :P

Emp Arrow should lower piercing resistance like Drg debuff , same goes for MCH (blank , remove knocback add 10%piercing )

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if you did that a lot of DRG would be angry :( as it would remove their special snowflake status...

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

5% physical / 5% magical dmg , MCH have to choose.... they shouldnt , why not both? :P

Emp Arrow should lower piercing resistance like Drg debuff , same goes for MCH (blank , remove knocback add 10%piercing )

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I actually agree with this. Before the argument was "drgs do less damage than mnks, but buff brds" ofc then came the rivers and rivers of dragoon tears, and now they have arguably the best offensive support ( bard boost/battle litany ) AND they have competitive dps and they are quite tp efficient compared to the other mellee that offers offensive support ( nin )

It's now at the point where I'd consider drg as essential to a group as a bard. and no group will do anything meaningful without a bard.

In the short period of time I've had WM, the biggest problem I'm having with it, is the cast time vs recast time(GCD).

They don't line up and it's driving me nuts.

if I had a 2.5s GCD with a 2.5s cast time, great. Nope. 1.44 cast with 2.4 recast... feels absurdly annoying.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

One of the big issues is the way our rotation works, it now became super twitchy because of casts combined with double rng procs topped off with a bunch of ogcd's.

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I like twitchy, as long its not necessarily an antithesis of 'smooth'. In Bard's case, I don't think it is. To me it feels twitchy, and still mostly smooth.

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One of the main bard mechanics now is Wanderer's Minuet which comes with cast times and cast times are interfering with one of our main mechanics from 2.0-2.55 namely Bloodletter+River of Blood proc's.

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I don't see how it could possibly interfere without extreme latency. Using it atop another oGCD, sure, but not a single oGCD alone.

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Bloodletter combined with its trait is a very strong skill, but it's also based on RNG and Bloodletter being OGCD in our old rotation never interfered with this mechanic.
Now that we have cast times and even one of our new main damaging skills Empyreal Arrow being an OGCD skill but with cast time we have a non stop flow of interference's with our Bloodletter.
Now I am not saying it is impossible to play around this what I am saying it is not fluid and a lot less enjoyable imo because of this.

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Bloodletter does, however, only refresh immediately after the 3-second global tick. The only times it can line up to cause you to actually waste a Bloodletter proc is if it refreshes just after you've already queued a double-weave, with a fair amount of latency, leaving you two animations and a cast time before you can trigger it (roughly one global if used after SS, or 3.0 instead of just 1.5s). If you have purposely clipped GCD to double-weave (dw'ed w/o SS), you will lose the Bloodletter. Even with the SS proc, it is possible that the effect will have then actually refreshed before it showed itself as available, such that when you queue your next Bloodletter seemingly with .5 seconds left to fire the old one, the new proc has already arrived and is fired instead. This has happened to me maybe once or twice since hitting 60, when spiking badly. In all other cases, the .5 seconds by which the next GCD arrives before the next Bloodletter makes firing another oGCD instead risk-less. Any time it arrives too late to factor into your decision making last GCD, you will have time this GCD to still use it.

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Then there is the high amount of ogcd's that don't work well with casts to begin with, pre 3.0 the bard was a job that used to double weave OGCD's (as long as you had half decent latency) without loosing any GCD time.
This is not possible anymore since the window to weave OGCD's became smaller by 1,5ish sec because of cast times.

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To laggers (e.g. me without WTFast), this single-weaving will feels familiar. Also, SS procs.

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As mentioned before Bloodletter is RNG based so it can reset pretty much anytime, or not at all. You can't build around Bloodletter RNG so you will have to delay it.

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No. See above.

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You also have to prioritize Bloodletter over actual GCD's now because it can reset during the cast of those which scews the timing of our GCD's which has two buffs that have to be kept up around set times.
So any of the lower valued OGCD's have to take a step back even further, which is not a big deal, but for QoL sake they should be adjusted.

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I see where you're coming from here. I just actually enjoy tracking the DoT tick times and weighing the risks where present (which, as I said above, is a relatively rare situation). Again, I find WM Bard twitchy, yes, but not unsmooth.

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Repelling shot with its 5y range becomes really hard to use with cast times, so as part of our old dps rotation there is only room for it when we get SS proc's and nothing else is up and we can get close enough to the target.
When used normally the repelling animation will cancel out our next queued cast and thus becomes not worth using as a dps skill.
However it could very well serve for its main purpose of mobility if adjusted the way I suggest below and be like the bard style of BLM Aether Manipulation.

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If Repelling were significantly changed, nostalgia would probably force me to hate the new version. Unfair, but true.

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Flaming Arrow is a ground targeted skill yet we can not activate the targeting circle until we are done casting.
The input of where we place the skill was already often not registered before 3.0 but now the OGCD window is even smaller making this skill feel very, very clunky.

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100% agreed. My Summoner would also very much like to be able to queue Shadowflare mid-cast and my DRK his Salted Earth. [No sarcastic implications here; let's seriously fix them all.]

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Barrage was our highest potency buff before 3.0 and it still is very strong, it did get nerfed however and on top of that changed in functionality.
The reasons for the functionality change is obvious, but for the sake of QoL it would be cool to have two stances for it for when WM is on and off, so we can still leave it as a part of the rotation for situations when bards have to disable WM.
Also Barrage in WM is now meant to be used with Empyreal Arrow, yet Barrage is an OGCD and EA is an OGCD with cast time. In a normal case this means that we will be cutting into our next GCD by the full duration of EA cast and if Bloodletter procce'd on top of it even more from using BL.

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True, though I think you'll find in a few cases that evening out the time you would have gained (like a reverse-GCD clip) from EA can be as beneficial as using it. At any rate, it costs us next to nothing.

Here's some food for thought though - Fuma Shuriken vs. Raiton during tightly timed CD coverage. Shuriken deals only 66% of the other's damage (though then improved by the physical bonus of 20%, iirc, so 80%) but leaves Mudra-Release as a mere double-weave, saving .5s GCD (more commonly .8- 1.0 with Mudra lag) window. Commonly worth it.

If critical strikes could not only be done during Barrage but Straighter Shot's effects also carried into each duplicated shot, Straighter Shot Barrage would deal 420 bonus potency, always, while EA Barrage would deal anywhere from 440 to 660 bonus potency, but may require us to hold onto Barrage for up to 14 seconds and consume an additional .5 to 1.25 GCD time (double-weave latency varies far more than single-weave as not only animation time factors but also server registry that the last animation finished, it seems). Sometimes the SS-Bar option may be worthwhile. It would also give pre-WM bards something to use it on that's not utter shit compared to the up to 660 bonus potency (almost 1k if all crit) it used to give (a 3.3s bow, 3 AAs in window).

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Heavy Shot's trait Heavier Shot serves the same purpose as the BLM firestarter trait and I feel like it could use the same benefits as firestarter.
Having it proc more often would give us more room to use our OGCD skills too improving overall flow and it would give us that little bit of extra mobility to compensate for the new cast times.

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Agreed. Even a 30% chance would help tremendously. However, I'm tempted to ask for one step further. Given that SS-waste costs us far less dps than Firestarter waste on BLMs, it might not actually be too overpowered for us to get the stacks of the buff that BLM so often requested. This would give us one to spend to avoid capping and another to hold for mobility or weaves, a very useful tool in improving our tactical freedom.

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Warden's Paeon is considered close to being a useless skill which is pretty disappointing for a lvl 58 skill.

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Agreed. It is usable pretty much only instantly pre-pull on Warriors who pop Berserk on their second GCD (Heavy, Unchained, Zerk --> Maim/Skull). There is much I would trade in order to avoid its cast time so that I could actually use it the moment a boss targets a random party member for a debuff and actually prevent that cast's effect. I can still choicefully, though at significant dps cost, save a healer from a universally applied debuff or a Warrior from pacify, but it has no use against random targets. There are many ways to go with this and I will likely detail them later below.

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The changes we had to Rain of Death left one of our AoE skills Wide Volley that was already not the best option to use close to completely useless and it needs some attention in one way or another.

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I don't see why. The two AoEs stack very, very nicely. Apply as many DoTs as you need to nearly guarantee RoD uptime and can maintain with IJ, then do 210 AoE potency every GCD atop your RoD-generating DoTs. Wide Volley still hits pretty hard, and tends to outdo DoTing a 4th mob at, well, about the time there are 4 mobs or your crit chance is over or even a 3rd if they won't live all live into the end of their 1st IJ duration. I like the balance of it.

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- Repelling Shot Remove the skills potency. Put the potency on another skill. Add extra 10~13 yalm to the range of Repelling Shot from where you can activate it.

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This would make the ability make no visual sense and lose its satisfying feeling when done well, imo.

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- Blunt Arrow Remove the skills potency. Put the potency on another skill (Like Emperyal Arrow, Sidewinder or Bloodletter).
~ Thoughtprocess behind this: Easing up OGCD flow while still making the skill serve it's true purpose of silence. This would also make silencing smoother when silence is actually needed.

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Again, please no. If anything I'd like to see the potency increased of Blunt or Repelling Shot increased. 'Harm' to the rotation is irrelevant, when you can figure out, as a player, per situation, how to work it in appropriately.

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- Straight Shot Needs a faster animation or faster proc detection.

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I'm sure many of us are curious as to why Thundercloud can replace a rotation Thunder after its already been queued rotationally but Straight Shot can't until half way through its cast, or why GL can detect that an ability successfully hit before the animation has even begun but pre-Enochian BLMs waste Firestarter after Firestarter for optimal dps. If SS procs get fixed, it will probably be alongside Firestarter. At best, our extra 1.0-second gap will make up the projectile time to make the fix unique to Bards. However, there is also already a fix for this, based on what I said in the last line. Don't queue your straighter shot until immediately before the GCD refreshes. Ofc, I too would love that QoL adjustment.

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- Bloodletter I am going to add some extra solutions here as this is the main culprit of our QoL issues in WM.
* option1: Bloodletter is now usable during the cast of other skills.
* option2: Blooldetter can now store up to 2-3 charges when it proc's.
* option3: Bloodletter now increases in power every time a proc happens, up to 3 stacks (lasting 10sec) First stack adds 100% of the damage, 2nd stack adds 75% of the damage and 3rd stack adds 50% of the damage (all stacks are fired next time you use the skill).

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Option 3 is something I'd suggested for a longbow stance back in 2.0, so of course I'm a bit partial to it. However, I don't feel that any of them are necessary. If any major changes like this were to occur, I'd most like to see them via Straighter Shot proc stacks and increased proc chance. I really don't mind prioritizing Bloodletter, feeling the occasional 'oh shit' moments it may bring, or learning how to avoid them.

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- Heavy Shot Removes the TP cost of Straight Shot on proc. Now has a 40% chance to proc Straight Shot vs the current 20%

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I don't see the need for TP cost removal. We already use the least TP of any virtually any job upon gaining IJ. Most jobs use an increased-cost ability every combo, and pay more for their DoTs atop it. We pay 60 for every move, including DoT refreshes, outside of procs.

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- Barrage Has two modes now. (Changes to barrage would be a low priority fix though as it isn't horrible or anything, just could be improved now that it is combined with EA cast time).
* Wanderer's Minuet is turned on: Barrage has current effect.
* Wanderer's Minuet is turned off: Barrage has the old pre 3.0 effect. Increase the amount of extra hits by 1 to compensate determination nerf and lower potency outside of WM so 3 bonus auto attacks vs 2 on old.

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Even with the Determination nerf the old style Barrage, properly timed will outdo EA-Bar. There is no need to buff it unless you're trying to make optimal Bard play feel more disjointed.

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- Wide Volley Has become close to useless and needs a rework.
I would personally lower its tp cost, make it single target and make it lower piercing resistance. Then add a piercing resistance debuf to machinist too, to balance all physical dps to have their own ability of debuffing targets.

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No.

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- Warden's Paen (The lvl 58 skill that is useless) Needs some reworks.
At the very least make it last 45 seconds (so we can use it pre-pull on a warrior). But even then the actual skill feels very lackluster.
So you could add an actual esuna effect to the skill, this would give it a little bit more use, but still not make it very useful at all especially with the 3sec cast time.
Preferably you look at it again really hard and make something more useful out of it than it is right now.
If we'r copying BLM's why not make it a Physical Damage Apocastasis kinda thing instead.

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Agreed until the last line. That's a shadow skin/wall. And even if it were reduced to a single hit, the cast would make it near-impossible to time.

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Bard Animations in WM
What is this?
(I personally don't watch animations mid combat anyway, but as people pointed out they are pretty bad)

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Yeah, they're shit. I don't see why arching our backs, posing, for a second and a half improves launching velocity. And we look stupid doing so.


Tl;dr:

I feel like WM gameplay is pretty smooth as is, though it could use improvements to SS proc detection and allowing stacks of SS procs would greatly improve our tactical freedom. Flaming Arrow, and all ground targeted abilities like it, absolutely should be queue-able mid-cast/animation.

I would prefer to see Barrage have reduced or no natural crit chance applied to its duplicates (though this would dampen the otherwise kingly crit stat weight), but allow the original to crit and apply the SS proc to its duplicates, making SS-Bar viable as an alternative to EA-Bar. I would like to see the same apply to Duality on Ninja, allowing the original crit. SS proc chance improvements would be nice but probably are not necessary if stacking were allowed. I do not think that further changes are necessary, even for QoL, apart perhaps from Warden's Paeon, which has all the lackluster use of Smokescreen when your raid knows how to Quell/Aether/Shroud. Additionally, I'd love to see the WM cast animation changed to instead modify the original animation itself as to appear to be using a stronger (and/or arcane) bow.

However, if I were to any real further changes, I would like to see the mobile Bard become viable again in a way that requires a decent amount of mastery to get make the most of, where WM is dropped not just situationally (run to far side of room while shooting, repop) but has some rotational significance that is intuitive to time but does not feel overly led (e.g. pressured by tight maintenance as on DRG). I'd like to see IJ and EA usable out of WM's stance, with reduced and slightly different effects. Ideally, I'd prefer to see WM's effect as an earlier Archer ability, and something that influences songs put in its place, allowing us quicker, more adaptive, more reactive support. It's is the songs and the idea of supportive adaptability that I find as more central to the idea of a Bard than the sheer mobility it was granted in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

In the short period of time I've had WM, the biggest problem I'm having with it, is the cast time vs recast time(GCD).

They don't line up and it's driving me nuts.

if I had a 2.5s GCD with a 2.5s cast time, great. Nope. 1.44 cast with 2.4 recast... feels absurdly annoying.

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...you'd never be able to touch an oGCD losslessly again if it weren't for that fact. Would that not feel annoying?

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Originally Posted by Kayko

While yes, I somewhat agree that BRD is in an alright place in terms of stand still damage, it is clunky. Nothing about it feels right even in something like Faust. Before passing full judgment, I'd like to see how Skill Speed really affects the cooldown on EA, perhaps it will line up better with a round of shots rather then either waiting half a CD or pushing it back half a CD. It just doesn't work ATM with at the gear I am in (456 SS).

As for another major point you bring up however, that double melee comp. To have an ability that can be 100% or 200% better just by the group comp is mess up. Though not min-max, groups can essentially have 0 casters (aside from healers) There is no reason that an ability like foes can't be changed to just "lowers enemy resistance by 2%" (or even 1.5%) instead of just magic resistance by 10%. It then covers all group comps instead of benefiting one far more then another.

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Iirc, it lines up as long as you average a single-weave with decent internet across the 15s duration. If you skip ahead via EA (by up to 1.5s, since you can cut instantly into the next GCD and the post-cast of the GCD before it), you can either wait the 1.0 to 1.5s and use another ability as EA comes up, or you can go ahead and double-weave once or twice to make it line back up. Both are viable options.

One idea I liked for Foe Requiem was for it to drain far less mana naturally but also sap mana every time a spell successfully hits a Foe-affected target (AoE blooms would not affect it, only the targeted hit causing the AoE), making your mana drain faster when it's doing more. It would be balanced for a 2-caster team, such that if you had only a single caster attacking, it would be far more sustainable, lasting at least twice as long, though it would also take a beating with two casters and both healers dpsing. The issues with the idea are pretty obvious though -- e.g. Ruin. When one considers having to balance that through proportioning the costs against adjusted potencies... well, that's then far too complicated.

On a sidenote the same idea was usable for Army's Paeon. And... it's also the fact of life every DRG faces, except that they at least buff themselves as well. No ranged, no real bonus, as they already need the debuff for themselves to do competitive dps.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Multi dotting is still a thing on most Alexander encounters, which is going to bypass the usual 3-second tick on bloodletter. Bard used to require a fast reaction to pick up on procs so you didn't double it up (which is the case for both SS and BL), but I'm finding myself having to delay one or another if a BL procs happens during another of my oGCD.

While wasting proc SS is less ofa potency loss than firestarter, you also need to remember that SS is part of our regular rotations outside of using it as a proc, you'll inevitably get those times where you start casting SS and then gain the proc, making you get neither the crit or the instant cast bonus. Which also drains down our finite TP since it's a higher cost than heavy shot. And my TP is certainly guzzled a lot more than that of MCH.

And on the side note, there needs to be some sort of differentiation between MCH and BRD gameplay, esp when GB/WM is factored. I leveled both and this just feels like a halfassed design when they decided to slap WM onto bard (Which makes the awkward/disjointed more gameplay even more obvious because MCH pulls it off much much better) Even if you were to give them some freedom of movement through stacking SS procs, that'd only make them play even more similar to MCH. I honestly thought that MCH would be the one that would gain more dps from remaining stationary when possibe (when they previewed the class) while bard would be the one that'd maintain their fast-paced, reactive gameplay (which all WM does is slow it down because you can't immediately pick up the procs if it occurs mid cast, or if it's done right after a oGCD and you're left with delaying weaponskill or BL) One thing they could've done was either give bard cast times on all of their oGCDs, or give machinists an oGCD of 2 second with their 1.5 second cast time (and remove the instant cast bonus from procs, although procs need to be changed up so they're determined immediately). At least one class would feel like a faster blackmage without any disconnects inbetween each ability and more emphasis on reactive procs, while the other requires planning with oGCDs

The bard animations are also pretty terrible. You can even tell that windbite and empyreal arrow were not designed with oGCD clipping in mind. And well...ironjaws....

1 - There is a delay that shouldn't exist between using a cd and when the next ability goes off. It should be seamless, but I get at least three button presses while spamming EA after using barrage or something. Does this happen to anyone else? It definitely happens to me and it's annoying.

2 - That accursed hissing sound effect during WM. Is gas forcibly escaping from my bow or something?

3 - Completely remove WM cooldown. Let us turn it on and off at will.

4 - There is no reason why our DPS should be noticeably lower than everyone else's. Our support isn't nearly good enough to warrant it. Simple solution: give bloodletter and rain of death a decent piercing resist debuff instead of the completely worthless evasion down.

5 - Minor nitpick: make moves more thematic. Why does a move called WANDERER'S minstrel cause me to stand still? How does a move called Iron Jaws refresh my dots?

6 - Give me a reason to sing more. Give me better songs. Look at bard from FFXI for inspiration.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

1 - There is a delay that shouldn't exist between using a cd and when the next ability goes off. It should be seamless, but I get at least three button presses while spamming EA after using barrage or something. Does this happen to anyone else? It definitely happens to me and it's annoying.

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Even worse: my Barrage interrupts my EA cast. All. The. Time. (Same with BL and HS/SS, or any other cooldown, really)

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...you'd never be able to touch an oGCD losslessly again if it weren't for that fact. Would that not feel annoying?

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You don't queue them up right at the end of a cast?

Do you play anything *but* bard or something? I don't have issues with oGCDs and full GCD cast times on other classes...

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2 - That accursed hissing sound effect during WM. Is gas forcibly escaping from my bow or something?

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Your bow now has a gas cycling system. Automatic rifle!.. erm.. bow!

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

5 - Minor nitpick: make moves more thematic. Why does a move called WANDERER'S minstrel cause me to stand still? How does a move called Iron Jaws refresh my dots?

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A minuet was a "small steps" dance requiring little movement.
As for Iron Jaws... our dots are called Venomous and Wind bites.
To me both names fit perfectly.

Agreed with your other points but the 3, the 15s cooldown is fine.
And they won't turn us into FFXI Bard. Support job doesn't and won't exist in FFXIV.
Though we are supposed to support our team...

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Multi dotting is still a thing on most Alexander encounters, which is going to bypass the usual 3-second tick on bloodletter. Bard used to require a fast reaction to pick up on procs so you didn't double it up (which is the case for both SS and BL), but I'm finding myself having to delay one or another if a BL procs happens during another of my oGCD.

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True. I didn't think to mention that set of situations. Again though, I don't mind adjusting situations when done.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

While wasting proc SS is less of a potency loss than firestarter, you also need to remember that SS is part of our regular rotations outside of using it as a proc, you'll inevitably get those times where you start casting SS and then gain the proc, making you get neither the crit or the instant cast bonus. Which also drains down our finite TP since it's a higher cost than heavy shot. And my TP is certainly guzzled a lot more than that of MCH.

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Its TP-guzzling is far less the issue to me. I can pretty well forget Invigorate exists over a... decently long fight, really, and still be fine if I've base SS and almost only refresh DoTs through IJ. That does not happen on any other physical dps I've played at 60 (admittedly I've yet to get MCH there and DRG has a level and a half to go). To me it's down to the Firestarter issue. That one part of WM-Bard really does feel like clunk.

I can't comment on your below portion until my MCH hits 60, or at least GB.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The bard animations are also pretty terrible. You can even tell that windbite and empyreal arrow were not designed with oGCD clipping in mind. And well...ironjaws....

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*shiver* yes. And that sound...

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

1 - There is a delay that shouldn't exist between using a cd and when the next ability goes off. It should be seamless, but I get at least three button presses while spamming EA after using barrage or something. Does this happen to anyone else? It definitely happens to me and it's annoying.

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I haven't had this yet. It's instant for me. But I can also cast instantly after repelling shot w/o interrupt at least with WTFast, so it may be an ISP thing.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

2 - That accursed hissing sound effect during WM. Is gas forcibly escaping from my bow or something?
3 - Completely remove WM cooldown. Let us turn it on and off at will.
4 - There is no reason why our DPS should be noticeably lower than everyone else's. Our support isn't nearly good enough to warrant it. Simple solution: give bloodletter and rain of death a decent piercing resist debuff instead of the completely worthless evasion down.
6 - Give me a reason to sing more. Give me better songs. Look at bard from FFXI for inspiration.

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Agreed/Yes please, to all. Though I'd personally take more support options over closer dps, partly because when the going gets rough for all other jobs we're usually still fairing pretty well, not too differently from in 2.x. And... I like the potential it has.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

You don't queue them up right at the end of a cast?

Do you play anything *but* bard or something? I don't have issues with oGCDs and full GCD cast times on other classes...

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You're right. There can't possibly be a reason so many SMNs prefer to Fester/Spur/Rouse after a Bio / Ruin II. Why would anyone weave?

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I Ruin II before and *after* fester, and if you fester directly after Bio you risk not getting the potentcy bonus because Bio doesn't register on the target the moment it's applied. This is also why you don't Bane immediately after application.

If you played Summoner at all you'd know that last one. It has nothing to do with the cast time.

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I've at one time or another played SMN on every turn of Coil aside from T13. So yes, I've played the class. Just not my first choice to level to 60.
The majority of your Festers will be done after DoTs are already in place or have been recently re-applied... initial application (yes I know its own issues well) is the not what I was speaking of.
As 'tandem' as they might be, your cast time will still be delayed, even if faintly, by the oGCD animation.

I Ruin II before and *after* fester, and if you fester directly after Bio you risk not getting the potentcy bonus because Bio doesn't register on the target the moment it's applied. This is also why you don't Bane immediately after application.

If you played Summoner at all you'd know that last one. It has nothing to do with the cast time.

On top of it, oGCD abilies do not trigger the GCD, meaning you *can* cast them in tandem. Unless your reaction time is so bad you can't release one key a fraction of a second before the other. In that case I can't help you.

Then again, I also don't macro them and have the oGCD queued so it goes off the instant the cast finishes.

My point being, you don't need a cast time shorter than GCD to weave.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

On top of it, oGCD abilies do not trigger the GCD, meaning you *can* cast them in tandem. Unless your reaction time is so bad you can't release one key a fraction of a second before the other. In that case I can't help you.

Then again, I also don't macro them and have the oGCD queued so it goes off the instant the cast finishes.

My point being, you don't need a cast time shorter than GCD to weave.

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You can't start an ability right after another ability, regardless of if its an oGCD or not. That's why you can't fit more than 2 oGCDs per GCD during WM unless you want to clip into your next weaponskill, or popping all the buffs at the same time. If there was a buffer time between starting an ability and it finishing (like cast times) then you can.

An example, you can queue up empyreal arrow right after a hard-casted heavy shot, but you cannot queue an empyreal arrow right after a bloodletter or another instant cast ability/buff.

Can't reply to everything right now.

But just gonna point out to the person mentioning that Wide Volley is not useless.
It is (almost) useless. If you are using Wide Volley (160tp 110 potency) over Quick Nock (140tp 110 potency) you are straight up wasting tp for no gain.
The only time Wide Volley is useful is if you are in a situation where you are unable to position yourself for QN, which is pretty much never.

So yes WV falls pretty much in the same category as Warden's Paeon now.

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Originally Posted by Necato

As for Iron Jaws... our dots are called Venomous and Wind bites.
To me both names fit perfectly.

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*sings*
Did you ever knoooow thay you're my heeeeeroooooo

lol you just solved my ocd. Thanks bro

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Can't reply to everything right now.

But just gonna point out to the person mentioning that Wide Volley is not useless.
It is (almost) useless. If you are using Wide Volley (160tp 110 potency) over Quick Nock (140tp 110 potency) you are straight up wasting tp for no gain.
The only time Wide Volley is useful is if you are in a situation where you are unable to position yourself for QN, which is pretty much never.

So yes WV falls pretty much in the same category as Warden's Paeon now.

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Which is why it needs a potency boost. 20 points would work, so you're paying 20 more TP for 20 more potency.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Can't reply to everything right now.

But just gonna point out to the person mentioning that Wide Volley is not useless.
It is (almost) useless. If you are using Wide Volley (160tp 110 potency) over Quick Nock (140tp 110 potency) you are straight up wasting tp for no gain.
The only time Wide Volley is useful is if you are in a situation where you are unable to position yourself for QN, which is pretty much never.

So yes WV falls pretty much in the same category as Warden's Paeon now.

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But similarly, why should Quick Nock become totally useless? At absolute most WV should be 120 potency, giving it a p:c (potency per TP cost) of .75 compared to QN's .78 (already a truly negligible difference). Or better yet, 115 potency. Anything closer and people would just take QN off their bars completely now that the Bard AoE proc chain is dead. If you're looking for a Stone III kind of upgrade at level 50 (19% cost increase for 24% potency increase), just know that you'll likely never see QN again.

If you want to really see variation given, it'll probably come in the form of a faint nerf to each alongside a proc chance to make the other AoE free or cause bonus damage (the proc from QN for WV perhaps being locked out to when more than 10 yalms or QN-range from the target).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But similarly, why should Quick Nock become totally useless? At absolute most WV should be 120 potency, giving it a p:c (potency per TP cost) of .75 compared to QN's .78 (already a truly negligible difference). Or better yet, 115 potency. Anything closer and people would just take QN off their bars completely now that the Bard AoE proc chain is dead. If you're looking for a Stone III kind of upgrade at level 50 (19% cost increase for 24% potency increase), just know that you'll likely never see QN again.

If you want to really see variation given, it'll probably come in the form of a faint nerf to each alongside a proc chance to make the other AoE free or cause bonus damage (the proc from QN for WV perhaps being locked out to when more than 10 yalms or QN-range from the target).

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Think you wanted to qoute Ryu?
I'm all in for changing WV completely, as there is no real need for 2x the same-ish aoe.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Think you wanted to quote Ryu?
I'm all in for changing WV completely, as there is no real need for 2x the same-ish aoe.

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I meant to quote the person who said what I quoted, in this case you. I apologize if it seems I took things out of context at all.

Out of curiosity, how would you change it? Would you want to see two, more different AoEs, have WV replace QN, or replace WV with a different 50 ability?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I meant to quote the person who said what I quoted, in this case you. I apologize if it seems I took things out of context at all.

Out of curiosity, how would you change it? Would you want to see two, more different AoEs, have WV replace QN, or replace WV with a different 50 ability?

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I don't see the need for 2 aoe's that just do that, aoe on a GCD.
There are tons of things that bard could do that can be put instead of WV or changed WV into, add piercing vulnerability to it make it single target, make it a high dmg aoe on long cooldown, be as creative as you want, I'm just saying it's no real use in its current state.

lower WV to 140 potency , change quick nock to something else.....Mazurka song instant cast 60s CD, selfbuff > next 2 shots are instant cast or for 5s your skills are instant cast.....

Windbite now lowers piercing resistance 10%

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

lower WV to 140 potency , change quick nock to something else.....Mazurka song instant cast 60s CD, selfbuff > next 2 shots are instant cast or for 5s your skills are instant cast.....

Windbite now lowers piercing resistance 10%

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Ah yea that would be even better, making WV cost same as QN and be the default aoe and actually replacing QN instead of WV since in terms of use WV sure is more convenient.

I am late to this thread, and I hope I don't repeat something someone has said before.

Disclaimer: I hate WM. The play style change with WM is so abrupt, I stopped playing the game. I have about 100 days left in my subscription and I probably will not renew if BRD remains the same by then.

(SE seems hellbent on nailing people's feet to the ground when they are doing DPS. I won't be surprised if some updates later, there will be a boss that requires players to be in specific positions in order to damage it (Actually it kinda happened already. See Bismarck) ).

Mainly the problem with WM is the cast time - so what if we remove it?
When WM is in effect:
- No cast time on skills
- Auto attack is disabled
- EA and IJ remains locked behind WM
- When a player remains stationary for five seconds, he will gain 1 stack of "Steady Breathing". Can stack up to 4 stacks. Each stack will increase damage by 5%
- Stacks are lost on player movement

Think this may work?

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Originally Posted by Daytona360

- When a player remains stationary for five seconds, he will gain 1 stack

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You lost it here.

20 seconds of no movement to get up to 20% damage? No. Even with the complications of adding cast times, that would be an objective DPS loss, especially on fights with consistent AOE.

If they want Bards to not run around, there's no reason to severely punish them for moving a step or two. A non-stacking boost that is inactive while moving and active when stopped is enough to prevent people from running around all over the place.

At worst, it should just be a non-stacking buff that applies on use of a weaponskill and is removed when you move. But having to wait 20 seconds even in things like Fractal or Neverreap where you're going to be moving frequently? Your DPS would tank. You also may as well take Repelling Shot off your bar because it'd be super counter-productive.

I think one of the biggest issues right now is people saying "look when using WM and not moving, bards are about on par relative to where they were before 3.0!" but before 3.0 we took a penalty to DPS in order to be mobile. Now we have that same relative penalty to 'top dps', and lose the mobility as well. If drg was 100% and brd was 80% well... drg is 100% and brd with WM is 80% and brd without WM is 60% and that's just not how it should be at all.

Lets face it, "doing it all on the run" was THE reason to play a bard prior to 3.0 No one played a bard because they "wanted to be support"

Personally I'm just finding bard no longer the 'fun' class to play that it was for the last 2 years. If I wanted to play BLM I'd have played BLM. It feels like they ran out of time getting Heavensward out the door and brd wasn't done yet, so they said "@#% it, give them the MCH stuff and call it a day" but it really doesn't work. You have all the problems of BLM with their procs plus the unique problems of BL procs in the middle of cast times, and none of the benefits of MCH when using the stance.

If you want to expose every weakness of the FF14 combat system play brd the way it currently is with WM. You get hit with every combination of bad proc synergy, bad proc timing, OGCD timing failures, and ground targeting weakness / bugs, and even the ability that interrupts itself now (bye bye repelling shot)! yet you get no benefit in DPS for dealing with it all either, you're still a 3rd rate "support" dps but you just lost the #1 class defining ability of 'doing it all on the run'

SE isnt removing WM , it needs to be ironed out , isnt going to be easy , since BARD wasnt created with WM in mind , so the gameplay is a bit clunky ....giving BRD some QOL changes would alleviate some of the issues.

BL procs , forcing a ranged character to be in melee range for conal aoe dmg , skills interrupting midcast for lots of reasons , leaving WM and still casting .... and on top of that awfull animations for the new skills ( WM casting , iron jaws , Sidewinder animation is meh )

I'm just afraid that SE is going to look at the dps numbers that the bards are pulling and say, look they'r fine.
But a big part of the appeal of an mmo is having a class that you can enjoy (be it a crafting or a combat class).
With MCH being comparable to BRD and BLM being comparable in other ways that's 3/4 ranged classes that fall in a same-ish playstyle.
SMN is different due to the focus on dots, but in the end even that is a caster making 4/4 of the ranged dps a caster.
So lets say if you enjoy playing ranged dps, there's the option of SMN or the other 3 pick the one with cooler aesthetics and that's it.
And if you do not enjoy casters, you'r basically out of luck. Instead of appealing to different playstyles we now have 3/4 ranged dps appeal to the same group.

Then lets ignore the homogenization for a second the other issue with bard actually able to pull the dps in its unpolished state is what makes me afraid of not seeing proper QoL fixes.
But look you can pull good numbers, you don't need no fixes is the argument being thrown around so much lately.
Well I can pull good numbers and still dislike the way I'm doing it while I'm doing it.
It's these kind of fights that people are pointing at where you top dps Alex Savage as a bard http://i.imgur.com/fBn2mIB.jpg
Only these people don't play bard and don't realize that I am not complaining about the dps output of bard at this point rather than issues with its playstyle which needs more attention than an easy dps tweak by upping or lowering potencies.

So wait you're afraid that the good Bards will make SE NOT make QoL changes ? SE makes changes based on the hardest content, if Bard is pulling good dps in the hardest content then yeah probably won't change much.

That said just because Bard is doing good dps doesn't mean SE won't notice some clunkiness involved.

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Originally Posted by Noira

So wait you're afraid that the good Bards will make SE NOT make QoL changes ? SE makes changes based on the hardest content, if Bard is pulling good dps in the hardest content then yeah probably won't change much.

That said just because Bard is doing good dps doesn't mean SE won't notice some clunkiness involved.

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When did quality of life = dps?
You can make QoL changes and if that causes dps to increase you can always balance the potencies afterward, as that's a simple change to numbers rather than anything else.

Just because I can pull good numbers, doesn't mean I like the way I have to do it, playing around broken/problematic skills/interactions.
This goes even more so for the top raiders going for world first, they will take the classes that work best for the situation, no matter what state it is in, so basing QoL fixes around those players is probably the worst idea, you base dps around them not qol.
If class X would be broken and unplayable in every fight, but would pull 5000dps in Alexander Savage Floor 4, those same raiders would take that class into that raid any day, it wouldn't mean the class is fine.

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Originally Posted by Tharkis

Personally I'm just finding bard no longer the 'fun' class to play that it was for the last 2 years. If I wanted to play BLM I'd have played BLM. It feels like they ran out of time getting Heavensward out the door and brd wasn't done yet, so they said "@#% it, give them the MCH stuff and call it a day" but it really doesn't work. You have all the problems of BLM with their procs plus the unique problems of BL procs in the middle of cast times, and none of the benefits of MCH when using the stance.

If you want to expose every weakness of the FF14 combat system play brd the way it currently is with WM. You get hit with every combination of bad proc synergy, bad proc timing, OGCD timing failures, and ground targeting weakness / bugs, and even the ability that interrupts itself now (bye bye repelling shot)! yet you get no benefit in DPS for dealing with it all either, you're still a 3rd rate "support" dps but you just lost the #1 class defining ability of 'doing it all on the run'

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Yeah, because it's not like you can toggle WM on and off. WHY didn't they add a toggle switch to the move!? Oh wait...they did.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Yeah, because it's not like you can toggle WM on and off. WHY didn't they add a toggle switch to the move!? Oh wait...they did.

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Because it's not like they made it so that Bard's DPS is now balanced around having it on, leading to a DPS loss when you have it off. Oh wait... they did.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Yeah, because it's not like you can toggle WM on and off. WHY didn't they add a toggle switch to the move!? Oh wait...they did.

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Their dps is balanced around using WM. I felt like you skimmed off very specific points for movement, and did not mention the clunkiness that comes from having a cast bar.