I'm not at war with anyone. So I don't feel the need to be silly at every corner of my life. Especially considering I have to deal with sillyness (and plain stupidity) every day at work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus
It's quite obvious that many people's enjoyment of the game is disturbed by bunny hoppers and random jumpers. Otherwise there wouldn't be threads like this in basically every forum dedicated to a MMORPG. You may enjoy it. Others don't. Many offered mediated solutions that allow the functionality of jumping without bothering other people.
You prefer all or nothing. I guess bothering other people for the sake of "sillyness" doesn't bother you.
Only on a Final Fantasy Forum...
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03-12-2011, 03:07 PMAbriael
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03-12-2011, 03:10 PMBlackheartCorrect me if i'm wrong, but if they are truly being bothers they could....you know..um...leave...? or...stop posting...? or for the sake of argument they don't really have to READ what people say....then again i could just be insaneQuote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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03-12-2011, 03:17 PMAbriaelI'm afraid you didn't really understand what "bothering" was referred to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackheart
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03-12-2011, 03:46 PMAmyRaeFirst of all, you're wrong in presuming that jumping can only be implemented with "bunny hopping" in mind. Many games have examples where jumping up and down constantly is either not possible or is more cumbersome than traveling by other means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
Second, the idea that you shouldn't implement a feature because people could find a way to make it annoying is not a winning argument. In FFXI there was no jumping, but could people be annoying? They could run around you in circles or set /follow on your character or camp right on top of you. Does that mean we should eliminate walking? Or /follow? Or not allow people to move near anyone else? How about using <calls>, it was annoying, but was it always bad? People developed a certain etiquette around these things, and because people wanted to get along (most of the time), you often didn't have many problems. Having the freedom to use certain tools is more valuable than being restricted from useful features because it might irritate someone.
I don't really care about jumps either way, but many people do see it as a valuable traveling option in certain situations with the opportunity of further game-in use like in quests and dungeons. Sure, maybe someone will think of a way to bug you with it, but that's what etiquette, kicking people from parties and linkshells, and calling GMs are for. -
03-12-2011, 03:53 PMAbriael
They don't need to "think of a way". A way already exists, and is always widely used in any game in which is possible.
The fact that people can find other ways to be annoying isn't a reason to implement MORE elements of annoyance.
If map design is "cumbersome", you fix map design (IE the nonsensical invisible walls), you don't implement gimmicks to get around it. You don't need to buy a new car to fix a blown tire. -
03-12-2011, 03:54 PMgifthorse
Guys, take this to the designated jumping thread, seriously. This wasn't the point of my thread.
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03-12-2011, 03:57 PMAbriaelConsidering that the point of your thread was entirely false (there's basically NO forum dedicated to any MMORPG, whether in beta or release, in which this topic hasn't been discussed to death and beyond), I would say using it for discussion is quite more constructive than to spread misconceptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by gifthorse
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03-12-2011, 03:58 PMgifthorseI don't know what MMO forums you go to, but the ones i go to have assumed it to be a given.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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03-12-2011, 04:02 PMWynn
Seriously, Abriael, what universe do you live in? The only MMOs that I know of in which you have a humanoid avatar that do not have jump are XI and XIV. People aren't discussing the validity of implementing jump in other MMO boards. Stop being such a troll.
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03-12-2011, 04:03 PMMariyaShidou
This thread remind me of TES V Skyrim thread turned into Fast Travel debate, oh mind.
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03-12-2011, 04:06 PMAbriaelIn a universe in which games other than wow exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
There are quite a few MMOs in which you can't jump. The first examples that comes to mind are Rohan Online, Ryzom and Guild Wars.
Try google (not that hard really, "bunny hopping mmorpg" or "jumping mmorpg" or the name of any mmorpg plus one of those terms). When your perspective is extremely limited it tends to help.
And too bad that google won't find beta forums, because otherwise it would show even more result. I still remember a thread in the warhammer online beta forums that was about 300 pages long. -
03-12-2011, 04:14 PMMariyaShidou
World of Tank doesn't have jump, I think.
Also if you don't count Hyper Jump as jumping, all the space ships MMO. -
03-12-2011, 04:17 PMgifthorse
Well all I know is that of the three MMOs I am following closely at the moment, there is no heated discussion about jumping, or maybe that's because those games already implemented the feature long ago, along with swimming and climbing and a million other things to add to the exploration of the gameworld they designed.
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03-12-2011, 04:21 PMAbriaelSo you're basing your idea of "only on a Final Fantasy forum.." over a whopping three examples (and most probably you just missed the discussions that happened in the past. The more a game has it's basic features cemented, quite obviously, the less those features will be discussed)?Quote:
Originally Posted by gifthorse
Every statistics teacher in the world would be proud of you. :D
Funny, by the way, how you seem to assume that a MMORPG featuring Jumping, swimming and even climbing (not to mention "a million of other things to add to the exploration") together, are something even remotely common. -
03-12-2011, 04:23 PMtrintaYou don't have to look too hard in the official WoW forums to find someone complaining about people jumping all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
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03-12-2011, 04:30 PMgifthorseWow, I didn't mean to make you cry practically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
Anyway, from my perspective, the resistance to jumping in Final Fantasy is much greater than anywhere else. I've yet to encounter such behaviour before. It's quite striking. -
03-12-2011, 04:33 PMAbriaelMaking an informed point that counters yours has very little relation with crying.Quote:
Originally Posted by gifthorse
Maybe you don't visit many beta forums or don't take part in many betas (which is quite comparable to the state FFXIV is in, considering that very few features of the game are set in stone). The discussions on jumping here are nowhere out of the norm.
Also, Final Fantasy is an intellectual property with a little more history than most others, which tends to create more strongly rooted positions about what is appropriate or not to the franchise. If you think this is serious, you must have missed the endless discussions on the most pointless details in the forums dedicated to star trek online, or warhammer online, or DC Universe, or star wars galaxies first and SWTOR now (all IPs that have a history comparable or even deeper than FF). Let's not even get into LOTRO.
Many people seem to think that they can't live unless they cant spam spacebar, many people hate to see those spamming spacebar. The two groups tend to collide. That's all there's to it.
@trinta: lovely signature. I've seen quite a few people around here that are ok with the idea of discussion only when they have no opposition or they're winning it :D -
03-12-2011, 04:36 PMWynn
Trinta, there is a difference between complaining about jumping (which i don't contest) and discussing the validity of implementing a jump feature to a game. The latter of which this thread is about. I know of no other beta or release forum that I have ever been a part of where this discussion has taken place. Probably gift hasn't either which is why gift made his/her original comment.
Also, Abriael: How can you sit there and criticize gift for saying three games when you make this blanket statement:
"there's basically NO forum dedicated to any MMORPG, whether in beta or release, in which this topic hasn't been discussed to death and beyond"
And then cite a single obscure f2p korean game as your proof, which may or may not have had threads dedicated to the validity of adding jump to the game. I wouldn't know, I've never played that game let alone was in the beta for it. It might have, who knows. But that is still one example, not all mmos. You are a hypocrite and all your posts are jokes. I will enjoy it immensely when they eventually ban you from these forums for trolling. -
03-12-2011, 04:38 PMgifthorseEven on Age of Conan before the first video was released of a guy jumping, I don't recall such heated discussion about its inclusion or exclusion from the game. Everyone hates bunny hopping. But there's bunny hopping and then there's the implementation of jumping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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03-12-2011, 04:46 PMAbriaelElementary logic would dictate that people on the current wow forums don't discuss the "validity of implementing a jump feature" in wow simply because the feature is already there. This not to mention that people complaining about jumping, most probably wish that jumping was never implemented in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
Most probably you didn't really pay attention.Quote:
I know of no other beta or release forum that I have ever been a part of where this discussion has taken place. Probably gift hasn't either which is why gift made his/her original comment.
Maybe because that "blanket" statement is based on quite a few more instances than three. And I'm using an euphemism here.Quote:
Also, Abriael: How can you sit there and criticize gift for saying three games when you make this blanket statement:
"there's basically NO forum dedicated to any MMORPG, whether in beta or release, in which this topic hasn't been discussed to death and beyond"
yes, guild wars is very obscure. Keep telling yourself that.Quote:
And then cite a single obscure f2p korean game as your proof, which may or may not have had threads dedicated to the validity of adding jump to the game.
Luckily they are more likely to ban you for your continuated insults and personal attacks, that tend to be against the rules of any forum. This one included (did you even read them?).Quote:
I wouldn't know, I've never played that game let alone was in the beta for it. It might have, who knows. But that is still one example, not all mmos. You are a hypocrite and all your posts are jokes. I will enjoy it immensely when they eventually ban you from these forums for trolling.
Unfortunately for you, effectively and easily countering all your biased points isn't against the rules of any forum. As much as I'm sure you'd love that to be the case, considering as counterpoints to your opinions seem to infuriate you.
Too bad that one thing tends to be consequential of the other. Also, if "everyone" hated bunny hopping, no one would do it.Quote:
Even on Age of Conan before the first video was released of a guy jumping, I don't recall such heated discussion about its inclusion or exclusion from the game. Everyone hates bunny hopping. But there's bunny hopping and then there's the implementation of jumping.
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03-12-2011, 04:50 PMVlaude
Hey guys, I know! Let's all get really upset and miserable and depressed on an internet forum about a video game! Doesn't THAT sound like a great time? WOOHOO!
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03-12-2011, 04:51 PMKimahriNow I quoted this to point out something. Nothing negative, just some observations. I can totally see how swimming and climbing could potentially be a way to explore some new area's of the world. It can easily go up there with the airships and boats.Quote:
Originally Posted by gifthorse
What I don't see is how jumping can lead to more exploration? The hell would I be doing, jumping up a wall to the clouds up above where fairies dance? I don't see a practical application for jumping besides a jump to occur automatically when a small hill or short fall is required. -
03-12-2011, 04:56 PMgifthorsePick you up at 8!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlaude
Couldn't you say the same thing for every motion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimahri
It's all just as futile when you put it that way.
At least jump adds a sense of accomplishment since you actually have to manually get to the area as opposed to just running along a pre-determined linear path. -
03-12-2011, 04:58 PMAbriaelAnd since you find that kind of action so satisfying, couldn't you just play a platformer, that has the mechanic implemented better than any MMORPG ever could?Quote:
Originally Posted by gifthorse
I suggest the old Shinobi for PS2. Believe me, you'll feel a TRUCKTON of accomplishment after finishing it. If you don't break your TV with a brick before getting there.
That instead of demanding the introduction of platforming mechanics in a MMORPG, that normally tend to look extremely awkward, and to frustrate to no end the (many) that don't enjoy that kind of gameplay belonging to another genre? -
03-12-2011, 04:58 PMVlaudeI'm JUMPING for joy!Quote:
Originally Posted by gifthorse
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03-12-2011, 05:11 PMgifthorseI don't play single player games. Anyway, I can't be bothered getting into an argument of definitions about what an MMORPG is, so I'll just point you to the direction of the jumping thread so you can get out of mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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03-12-2011, 05:12 PMOstia
So hmm Whats wrong with jumping ?
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03-12-2011, 05:12 PMgifthorseNot on our watch you ain't!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlaude
This... is... Final... Fantasy!
*kicks you into an endless black pit*
*Oh wait, there's no Z axis so you just hit an invisible wall* -
03-12-2011, 05:13 PMgifthorseNUUUU! get out of my thead! All of you, out now! Scram!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ostia
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03-12-2011, 05:13 PMAbriaelYou're the one that started the thread talking about jumping (the fact that you did that with a false point doesn't really have any bearing on that, not to mention the fact that your attempt to use this thread to promote the idea that jumping should be implemented was veiled in a quite clumsy way, resulting quite evident), so you can't complain if people talk about jumping in "your" thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by gifthorse
Mind you, you're even less entitled to complain considering that you, yourself, argued for jumping in this same thread in quite a few posts.
So you use the thread (that you say it's not about jumping) to argue about jumping, but others can't? Or maybe arguing FOR jumping is somehow "in topic", while arguing against it is magically "off topic"?
By the way, starting a thread on a discussion forum doesn't make it "yours". The forum doesn't belong to you, including all it's assets, threads started by you as well.
You can't really tell people that disagree with you to "go away". -
03-12-2011, 05:14 PMKimahriWhat? A pre-determined linear path? What? Wouldn't jump also be considered a pre-determined vertical path even if you smash the space bar?Quote:
Originally Posted by gifthorse
I'm so sick of using my damn XI references to prove a point, but I can't use XIV because, quite frankly, it sucks. If anyone has ever played the ENM scenario and went after the Hagun ENM, you'll know what I"m talking about. In order to go into the ENM you had to traverse a mountain side with no barriers. That means you could fall off at any given moment if you made the wrong move. This is just like climbing, but with XIV we could improve upon this. When I made it to the top of that mountain the first time, I felt a sense of accomplishment being one of the few.
Trust me. I don't care how many times you post the same thing about jump, there is no logical excuse to implement it in such a way as to hit the space bar manually. You know what? Here, I know. A one way deal. You can only excercise the space bar as a jumping feature while on a certain mission and you're trapped in an instance. Happy?
Call it, "Jump! To the rescue of the Mario Brother's!" -
03-12-2011, 09:35 PMgifthorseI'm pretty sure the original thread was a remark upon the many idiosyncracies of the Final Fantasy community. If you think it was a veiled threat to your ideals of jumping then maybe you're just too touchy. Gosh, the fact that you think I was serious about the 'my thread' comments just goes to show that that's the case. Calm down already why don't you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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03-12-2011, 09:43 PMgifthorseI view linearity as being confined to one specific way of doing things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimahri
Linearity is not in line with the spirit of adventure or exploration which I expect from an MMO. Obviously this is all just subjective. Abriael will go on to say that MMORPGs are about running around killing monsters sitting around in a field, and nothing more, so clearly everyone has their own specific viewpoints. It's a simple case of clashing perspectives, but while I am here, I will explain mine.
Walking upon the ground and not being able to engage with the world around you is one way in which this game falls short at creating an immersive atmosphere. When I imagine a fantasy world, I feel like I should be able to do as I wish within its boundaries. In FFXIV there isn't even the illusion of options, and the boundaries are thereby very narrow. There is one form of movement and its running and walking, and only in predesignated areas.
I see FFXIV like a tunnel, leading me from place to place without even letting me branch off and explore the world they've created, or haven't created, as the case most obviously is.