Immersion, The Facts & Fiction

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Darn that really is breaking it into it's basic elements. I was about to say The Force from Star Wars too, I can't really think of an example of how any part of that can be related to reality in any way at all.

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"the force" is an idea derived from human religions.

"the force" is a natural god in Star Wars.

God is a real human idea.

The same idea is used in FFVII - "the life stream".

the problem with moral is that it is all subject to your view. Bartandelus saw it as a good thing to kill Cacoon's inhabitants. but they saw it good to kill him instead.

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

the problem with moral is that it is all subject to your view. Bartandelus saw it as a good thing to kill Cacoon's inhabitants.

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Morality is situational and relative and personal all at the same time.

I agree.

Lying is thought to be immoral.

Yet, if I lied to anyone who was trying to harm me, would lying still be immoral?

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Originally Posted by Crica

"the force" is an idea derived from human religions.

"the force" is a natural god in Star Wars.

God is a real human idea.

The same idea is used in FFVII - "the life stream".

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So then to create something totally unrealistic is impossible as simply by creating it you give it some foundation to reality?

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Then how do they choke people with it and shoot lightning from their fingers? :p

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I though you were wanting to know were they might have gotten the idea from. Now that i think about it, magnetism gave us magic, because it is magic in a sense.

Just came back to read what you all said, I've let my opinion be heard and all. I did however want to say because it bothers me...

Rhomagus is a terrible arguer, not only does he try to act superior because he knows how to talk and look the part. But he just can't quite understand that subjective things are the only things worth arguing considering that FACT can't be argued and is pretty easily understood. Thus the problem with this thread trying to say that the definitions were the issue when I'm pretty sure the definitions weren't what was being confused, it's the simple idea that people need to see where immersion begins and ends and argue their opinions.

Curses, not only did I personally attack someone but I inserted a new argument. Good luck all!

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

So then to create something totally unrealistic is impossible as simply by creating it you give it some foundation to reality?

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As far as my personal thought train can go, yes.

Not to mention, "force" is real as well.

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

I though you were wanting to know were they might have gotten the idea from. Now that i think about it, magnetism gave us magic, because it is magic in a sense.

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Lol, I often question how things work before working out where it came from :p

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

I though you were wanting to know were they might have gotten the idea from. Now that i think about it, magnetism gave us magic, because it is magic in a sense.

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Also magnetism may have been called magic at one point because people didn't understand it. Fantasy just expands on that idea...

CRAP I DID IT AGAIN. YOU GUYS ARE BADDDD LET ME LEAVE T.T

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

Rhomagus is a terrible arguer

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I agree, I'd hate to have an arguement with him. I'd spend half my time trying to work out what each sentence means 'cos he uses really long words XD

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

Also magnetism may have been called magic at one point because people didn't understand it. Fantasy just expands on that idea...

CRAP I DID IT AGAIN. YOU GUYS ARE BADDDD LET ME LEAVE T.T

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You're becoming immersed in this thread.

Yeah, I went there again. :p

In immersion I think we are getting the two worlds mixed up.

1 the world that is in the game
2 the world that we perceive the game represents

As in the second post on this thread, if they put a big advert on the screen. That would be part of the games world but it would harm the world that we perceive the game represents.

I have not seen Garlond. In the games world it is not there, but in the world that we perceive, it is just across the sea.

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

In immersion I think we are getting the two worlds mixed up.

1 the world that is in the game
2 the world that we perceive the game represents

As in the second post on this thread, if they put a big advert on the screen. That would be part of the games world but it would harm the world that we perceive the to represent.

I have not seen Garlond. In the games world it is not there, but in the world that we perceive it is just across the sea.

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Thought you were gonna join in mid-debate? :p

Oh, am i way off of the present debate?

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

Oh, am i way off of the present debate?

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Not really, we're sort of feeling our way around looking for the next part of the debate to latch our claws onto. I think we were just hovering around 'realism' a minute ago.

how about, What is magic?

Wow, 400th post.

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

how about, What is magic?

Wow, 400th post.

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Indeed, you've reached half of my post amount in... 5 months more time than it took me XD

Can we associate magic with immersion? If we go off-topic too much the rep will close the thread.

Really? They would do that just for getting off topic?

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

Really? They would do that just for getting off topic?

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I think so, but so many topics have gone off-topic on the 1st forum page now that I think they'll just say "It's a general discussion thread, talk about whatever you want."

If they don't though, we're already miles off-topic.

Konachibi, I kindly compliment your take on this. I've seen so many threads that have droned down deafeningly to a cacophony of clamoring complaints. But really, its refreshing to see fellow players not given over to complaints but looking at things logically, kudos Konachibi!

Immersion is in the player's head, not the designer's technology.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

You're becoming immersed in this thread.

Yeah, I went there again. :p

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SNAP, and it has such bad graphics T.T HOW IS IT POSSIBLE

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

SNAP, and it has such bad graphics T.T HOW IS IT POSSIBLE

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ask yourself, it is subjective after all ;)

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

Konachibi, I kindly compliment your take on this. I've seen so many threads that have droned down deafeningly to a cacophony of clamoring complaints. But really, its refreshing to see fellow players not given over to complaints but looking at things logically, kudos Konachibi!

Immersion is in the player's head, not the designer's technology.

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Thanks, glad you liked it ^.^

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

Just came back to read what you all said, I've let my opinion be heard and all. I did however want to say because it bothers me...

Rhomagus is a terrible arguer, not only does he try to act superior because he knows how to talk and look the part. But he just can't quite understand that subjective things are the only things worth arguing considering that FACT can't be argued and is pretty easily understood. So stop arguing fact. Reframe the argument, and see if you're comfortable with the words that you'd have to use that truly shed light on your opinion of the subject. The opposition is using 'immersion' as a rhetorical device to cover up what they really want the design of the game to do. Thus the problem with this thread trying to say that the definitions were the issue when I'm pretty sure the definitions weren't what was being confused,They obviously are as I have yet to see the opposition change their words to better represent their view. it's the simple idea that people need to see where immersion begins and ends and argue their opinions. It's where the opposition imposes their view of immersion to override my view of immersion when the current design is the neutral choice that should please both parties.

Curses, not only did I personally attack someone but I inserted a new argument. Good luck all!

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We've negotiated. This thread is the brainchild of trying to please both parties. We're okay with options. The Final Fantasy XIV development team along with Naoki Yoshida is okay with options. I'd argue to even say that the development team under Tanaka was okay with options.

I'll quote Naoki Yoshida and the post that seemed to have started all of this 'immersion' nonsense. Not that it matters anyways but here you go:

Instant Airship Transportation

Clues to Naoki Yoshida's development philosophy

I've also already made a post stapling together several Naoki Yoshida quotes from different interviews and Letters from the Producer.

Not that you have to read it, but I believe you are only frustrated because we are actually coming from as neutral a point of view as we can and supporting our positions from neutral third parties rather than succumbing to appeals to emotion and imbuing our deliveries with a false sense of misguided passion. I'll admit that I have been known to match rhetorical tone. Crica on the other hand is Zen like in her posts. You seemed to be emotionally invested in what your concept of 'immersion', 'fun', and 'Final Fantasy' are and it is unfortunate that you are unable to let go of certain attachments and realize that there really is a good game buried deep underneath it's rushed shell.

We are attempting to see a larger picture. We know there are subjective and objective aspects of immersion. I've already stated this earlier in the thread but Konachibi has shown how the opposition could properly frame the argument so that their premise is correct. As of right now it is not, at least not to a degree that is worth arguing for. Even when you do frame the argument correctly I'll still have a rebuttal. Only then we'll both know that we're dealing in opinion and not misappropriating definitions just to fit our view.

I could post a very long winded argument on social engineering and cite child psychology studies to help frame my argument.

I could include the methaphor of Pavlov's dog and go into behavioral psychology.

I could support my point of view from a marketing perspective which I've already done.

I've got a book that covers game design that I could pull out of my closet and start quoting from that too but I honestly believe that Yoshida's position is very well translated and he makes the best arguments for his decision making process.

You see though, this would be an exercise in futility (an exercise nonetheless) as there is already extensive information at your fingertips. Not only that but at this point, there really is no convincing the opposition. The only thing left for people who are in favor of options is to counteract the opposition's blind sentiment that their definition of immersion is integral to the game's success by neutralizing arguments from a logical perspective and posting threads of our own to counteract all of the 'immersion' threads that are popping up. Hopefully the development team will see these arguments in tandem with the opposition and not make any hasty decisions.

That's all that we can do.

Your post is too long. It also has links too other long posts.

I think he sits there with a dictionary and just picks out all the long words then links them together into sentences :p

They sound very star trekky when you read them though. Keep expecting him to suddenly go "That is illogical captain"

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

Your post is too long. It also has links too other long posts.

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Crica's here for the tl;dr crowd.

I'm here for people who want the details.

Unfortunately that probably only consists of 1 computer that has been programmed to love.

I'm here for Data.

I miss Reynaldo.

What the HECK is this tl;dr stuff i keep hearing about?

Oh, never mind tl;dr ="Too long; didn't read" sorry

Trekkies
sorry, i had to link it=)

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

What the HECK is this tl;dr stuff i keep hearing about?

Oh, never mind tl;dr ="Too long; didn't read" sorry

Trekkies
sorry, i had to link it=)

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Too Late;Debate Ruined. :p

Updated link in previous post.

Oh, It'll get back on track.

So, Immersion is the feeling of being in the game.

Morals are just a point of view.

And trekkies shouldn't go into a star-wars shop.

Is that what we've discovered?

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Me either, that's why I made this thread, to try and stop people using it incorrectly all the time. If they used it right, you'd hardly ever see anyone use it.

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If you didn't ever want to see the word every again you wouldn't have made the thread. And PP said "Never wanted to see it again" not "Never wanted to see people use it incorrectly"

*And no, I just can't get immersed into FFXIV, there is nothing to be "immersed" in*

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

TL;DR with a few good points

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Hey, the RPers get immersed in it fine, but that's because they ignore the game world and make a world of their own in the world of the game that isn't necessary.

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Originally Posted by Rinoa

Oh, It'll get back on track.

So, Immersion is the feeling of being in the game.

Morals are just a point of view.

And trekkies shouldn't go into a star-wars shop.

Is that what we've discovered?

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Yup, pretty much (b'.')b

We've made some good discoveries me thinks.

Oh you missed

Magnets are really magic that use the power of The Force.

Magnet are really magic and they are LIKE the power of the force.

Magnets?

How do they work?

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Harry Potter probably has more people hate it worldwide than like it. Everyone I know irl hate it, and I know a lot of people.
Star Wars doesn't draw in anyone, it draws in sci-fi fans. Most of the people I know don't care for Star Wars either.

Also perhaps you didn't notice but a vast majority of people in the forums have already said your lack of immersion in the game is your own fault. The game itself is brimming with immersion, it's your problem if you can't accept it.

How many times must people poke you with an angry stick before you suddenly realise that all you're continuously doing is making a fool of yourself by trying to counter fact?

Diablo was an action RPG with an online function, it has as much immersion as any other RPG, if the player chooses to let themselves be immersed by it.

Also I just noticed this thread has been labelled as a 'hot topic' despite many of the first posters claiming it's going to die off really quick :3

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thats because people on here have extremest views. Which is one of the reasons the game won't do well.
Harry potter is one of the most successful franchises of all time
star wars TOR has over 1million beta signups and is nearing or over 500k preorders now
Shadow of the Colossus was a hit and is thought of as a classic and it forced people to walk around without even having enemies in the world.

I provided you with multiple -real life- success stories to back up my arguments, but you argue "i dont think people really like those things" even though they have been far more successful than FFXIV.

Immersion is something created by the game devs. Its what brings a game a good review. If this wasn't true than games would be reviewed on gameplay alone, and they are not.

I actually provided real arguments, quotes, and links to games that were a success based on immersion and you just said "no one agrees with you"

Although the quotes i showed, clearly shows people who -study- the field do....

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is the things you claim to be ruining immersion for you are not necessarily ruining the immersion of other folks.

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my thread on insta porting got like 50 likes so clearly there are others who agree, further the threads on airship insta-porting to SE to say they would implement a way for people to take an actual ride. So its pretty clear there are people who agree. If you think im so wrong, make a poll-thread.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

thats because people on here have extremest views. Which is one of the reasons the game won't do well.
Harry potter is one of the most successful franchises of all time
star wars TOR has over 1million beta signups and is nearing or over 500k preorders now
Shadow of the Colossus was a hit and is thought of as a classic and it forced people to walk around without even having enemies in the world.

I provided you with multiple -real life- success stories to back up my arguments, but you argue "i dont think people really like those things" even though they have been far more successful than FFXIV.

Immersion is something created by the game devs. Its what brings a game a good review. If this wasn't true than games would be reviewed on gameplay alone, and they are not.

I actually provided real arguments, quotes, and links to games that were a success based on immersion and you just said "no one agrees with you"

Although the quotes i showed, clearly shows people who -study- the field do....

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What am I reading?

Who has an extremist point of view?

Two kind of playerbase when it comes to Immersion:

1) easy immersed "hey look a bird :D" "that tree is green and has bark"

2) put detail thoughts into an object or an idea "hmm a cave, wonder what it connects too.." "hmmm this airship is of unique style... maybe a stolen technology from garleans!"

.. i still wondering why they didn't put an NPC A at departure and NPC B at arrival, save some time instead of making a airship models and scenery... clearly players don't give a shiz about their detail.