Why bring MNK to anything anymore?

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

You know, it's not like I didn't mention this in other threads about this discussion. Monk still does top DPS if you want to pit a well versed NIN vs. a well versed Monk. Want to know
something? NIN and a MNK in the same party. Who's going to hit the TP draught first? The NIN will. Why is that? Because they only have Invigorate. But the MNK only has Invigorate too! But wait..! The NIN has Goad, they SHOULD be giving this to the MNK which goes into the overall DPS lasting longer.

T10 - Only time losing stacks is if you're picked for wild charge(this is potentially avoidable, but the window is very, very strict)
T11 - You don't have to go the full flank for a positional movement. So even if you're tethered, you can still get positional. Losing GL3 shouldn't be an issue here though.
T12 - Transition into Bennu Phase. You will lose GL3. But you can PB here and just start over again. Just make sure to end on Twin or Snap as the last Bennu dies to maintain GL3 as Phoenix comes to play again.
T13 - Divebombs. Loss of GL3 is obvious. You can pick and choose when to use you're PB, but I usually just save it for Bahamut returning for Teraflare(Though I think the span between first DB and Tera is more than three minutes, so two PB could be ready if used at first set of adds)

Is the loss of GL3 fair because of mechanics? No. Not at all. I certainly agree that we should have a stack by stack loss or another way of achieving GL3 or PB(There's a PVP skill that does grant PB which is rather nice. Another which instantly grants GL3). I'm not fond of building stacks again because of mechanics while everyone else can just go ham from the get go after mechanics. People speak of high risk and high reward, but I guarantee you people will hate you for trying to play risky and ignoring mechanics for the sake of keeping your DPS.

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I don't think people are disputing monk can't compete in single target DPS. What people are saying is that for the effort necessary to compete, it's completely disproportionate rewards.

I mean, you have a fully geared ninja from what I can see, is it not less annoying as a ninja to go into an encounter where your self buffs are not predicated on hitting a target? Where you don't have as heavy a ramp up?

And is it not more convenient to play a ninja or dragoon where bursting down adds is required? Are ninja and dragoon not better off in aoe circumstances?

The problem as I think everybody knows isn't the single target, it's just the frustration of playing a game where bosses randomly rotate to select a target, where large aoe is spammed in melee range closing off positionals sometimes (so it means you are more reliant than ever on a tank positioning the mob so you can have maximum uptime on flanks and back).

What's the point of having similar single target to a ninja when the ninja can also burst, has less ramp up, and has better aoe? I mean look at Arm of the Destroyer it's such a pitiful spell and rockbreaker is a cone not a circle.

It's sort of the same question that comes with why playing a summoner over a black mage when the black mage has similar single target capacity but can burst, has better aoe, and better target switching.

Just gonna drop this here. Monk is definitely viable in most fights still, Dragon Kick specifically this patch has been invaluable, however, I think it's fair to say that Nin can beat out Mnk in most fights, simply due to the fact that they don't have to worry about stacks at all. Good monks can negate this, but good ninjas can beat out monks as well. Going to post a parse, names are cut out for obvious reasons, but it's from a top guild. Not going to read through 13 pages of people yelling at each other that MNK is better than everything, it is definitely a contender for top DPS, but I feel like we're finally at a place where the jobs are mostly balanced and they bring their own benefits without too many reasons to bring one over the other, it's a good place to be if you want to mix your comp up a bit.

http://puu.sh/hstal/57d4e49406.jpg

btw this was a 6:23 long T11 Parse. Sorry I cut that part out.

Of course some of you Monks would take the opportunity in this thread to cry that Monks need buffs... my god you guys complain the most, lol
And no Monks are not always highest single target damage as i have seen Ninjas parse much higher then equally geared monks.
The mentality of should or always is #1 in some people... Just play the class that you enjoy

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

What's the point of having similar single target to a ninja when the ninja can also burst, has less ramp up, and has better aoe? I mean look at Arm of the Destroyer it's such a pitiful spell and rockbreaker is a cone not a circle.

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I can't argue Arm of the Destroyer, but it's just meant to silence more than it is to AoE spam. Though that's more of a last resort(like back in T2 days). Rockbreaker is a good 'AoE' skill. Yes, it's not a circle, but you can still effectively use the cone just as a NIN could Death blossom. Really, the only thing NIN has over on Monk there is Doton.

Though I personally don't care much for the AoE department since it isn't Monk's thing. I'm sure everyone can agree to that. Yes, I do agree playing Ninja is far more convenient in actions taken, benefits to the group, and damage given. As I mentioned, I never felt that it was fair that everyone else can just get straight into the big numbers while Monk suffers from "standing still too long". Be it from their own mistakes or because they are forced to do so(Look at you Earth Shaker). I still feel that MNK -can- still be stop DPS given a perfect world. However, it will always come down to how many times they are forced to do mechanics. If they are forced to do mechanics, it's no wonder NIN will come out on top. If NIN forced to do mechanics, then obviously MNK will. If neither? Chances are it will favor the Monk in the end.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Of course some of you Monks would take the opportunity in this thread to cry that Monks need buffs... my god you guys complain the most, lol
And no Monks are not always highest single target damage as i have seen Ninjas parse much higher then equally geared monks.
The mentality of should or always is #1 in some people... Just play the class that you enjoy

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Gear does make a difference, but two equally geared people does not mean one is not doing their rotations properly compared to the other. This also falls upon the number of crits that happen. So RNG also favors this. We do play the classes we enjoy. As a Monk, we just don't like that we're forced to lose a HUGE amount of DPS to do mechanics while everyone else is minimal.

You know, a lot of the top progressing groups absolve the monks of the mechanics where possible, right?

Also Monks get the most use out of cooldowns.. and with Heavensward coming, IF we get GL4, no one will compete with us; with ONLY GL4 and using blood for blood, B4B is 16.2% increased damage.. multiplicative stacking is what we have going for us. Just learn to abuse your cooldowns, and maximize the damage you're dealing during uptimes. Get ready for the Greased 4, its going to be insane.

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Originally Posted by Odowla

You know, a lot of the top progressing groups absolve the monks of the mechanics where possible, right?

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In a perfect world. But this is only with your progression groups. Let's speak of the overall picture. People will prefer you to not put stress on everyone instead of carrying the mindset of "Healer will take care of it". Also "where possible" is a very rare instance. Legitly the only one I can name is covering a Monk for ES for P1. But if they get picked a second time, then what~?

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

In a perfect world. But this is only with your progression groups. Let's speak of the overall picture. People will prefer you to not put stress on everyone instead of carrying the mindset of "Healer will take care of it". Also "where possible" is a very rare instance. Legitly the only one I can name is covering a Monk for ES for P1. But if they get picked a second time, then what~?

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Then you get good and learn to weave? I literally murder the paladins on purpose now if they cover me and not the black mage. If you weave the earthshaker, you don't lose any damage - Yes, not even autoattacks. You could get covered, I guess, but its a straight DPS loss if the black mage gets an ES and you cover the monk.

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Then you get good and learn to weave? I literally murder the paladins on purpose now if they cover me and not the black mage. If you weave the earthshaker, you don't lose any damage - Yes, not even autoattacks. You could get covered, I guess, but its a straight DPS loss if the black mage gets an ES and you cover the monk.

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Your BLM have Swiftcast for 1st ES if necessary and eat the next 2 ES with Manawall.

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

http://puu.sh/hstal/57d4e49406.jpg

btw this was a 6:23 long T11 Parse. Sorry I cut that part out.

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This is laughable, tell that monk to get good. Do not use this parse to compare monk and ninja please. Monk can do way more damage than that pre echo. And I agree with Odo, learn to weave and cover that blm for max raid dps. Dont get me started on GL4. The hype is too much for me :).

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Then you get good and learn to weave? I literally murder the paladins on purpose now if they cover me and not the black mage. If you weave the earthshaker, you don't lose any damage - Yes, not even autoattacks. You could get covered, I guess, but its a straight DPS loss if the black mage gets an ES and you cover the monk.

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I'm not familiar with weaving ES nor do I understand how this is going to work when you have a puddle right underneath you. Does weaving just cause the puddle to not appear?

Edit: Also, try to be a little less hostile. This is a civil talk. I rather not demean it by calling out people like that.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

I'm not familiar with weaving ES nor do I understand how this is going to work when you have a puddle right underneath you. Does weaving just cause the puddle to not appear?

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In P1, you basically just zigzag away from and toward Bahamut to land your GCDs attacks while placing the puddles far enough away from Bahamut. In P4, you should not do this since the puddles stay on the battlefield longer.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

In P1, you basically just zigzag away from and toward Bahamut to land your GCDs attacks while placing the puddles far enough away from Bahamut. In P4, you should not do this since the puddles stay on the battlefield longer.

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Oh, I see now. Definitely a P1 thing. It does solve a DPS loss in P1...Potentially P4, but it really depends on if the tanks are really willing to work with you on it. In most cases and groups, not really. Definitely would work out for a static group though.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Your BLM have Swiftcast for 1st ES if necessary and eat the next 2 ES with Manawall.

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You're still moving and not casting. No reason to do ti when it can be avoided.

As for weaving you just do this http://www.twitch.tv/bokchoykn/c/5883680 . You don't take a tick, and if you do it right (you can leave a little bit later than he does here, but it's a /very/ good demonstration) you don't lose any damage, Thus leaving cover free for anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

This is laughable, tell that monk to get good. Do not use this parse to compare monk and ninja please. Monk can do way more damage than that pre echo. And I agree with Odo, learn to weave and cover that blm for max raid dps. Dont get me started on GL4. The hype is too much for me :).

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This is from Lucrezia, probably the top guild in this game. Get good? Lol..

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

This is from Lucretzia, probably the top guild in this game. Get good? Lol..

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You know, forum professors with a PhD in Skill.

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

This is from Lucretzia, probably the top guild in this game. Get good? Lol..

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Then I'd like you to take a look at this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=722665224

please not. PRE ECHO BUFF. So yes, this is laughable.

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Originally Posted by Spayd

Then I'd like you to take a look at this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=722665224

please not. PRE ECHO BUFF. So yes, this is laughable.

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Kill time 6:21 though. Probably one of their old parses posted on their Twitter. Top statics these days are more into running kill times rather than individual numbers since the group can adjust to rig anyone's number as they want.

If you want to nit pick you can go back to their Twitter and dig out some of the parses there where you can nit pick on other jobs like their BRD or whatsoever. 44X on T11? I'm sure everyone have seen BRDs parsed higher than that but is it laughable? I honestly don't think so. People are looking at their group DPS and kill time which they have always been out there setting the bar.

Unless you have the same kind of achievements as them I don't see how is it that you are actually laughing at anyone of them.

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Originally Posted by Spayd

Snip

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I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about whose better between Lucrezia and DnT. Also, the funniest part about the leader board, that you just posted,which mind you everyone in there mom knows about, in literally every top 3,save T13, ninja beats monk. The whole point of me showing the parse was to justify that Ninjas are equal or better than Monks in dps, and you've only proved it further, so thank you for that, also, unlike the parse, we know nothing about the party comp they went in with, was it double monk? You don't know. It's very easy to cheese parses, I'm not saying they did I'm just saying there's very little to prove they didn't.

And for the record, I'm not trying to discredit any guilds here, I have a ton of respect for those guys and I know a lot of the guys involved with doing those crazy pushes and I could never do it. I just think it's ridiculous that you'd point to that leader board which isn't transparent at all with any of the encounters. I take the numbers to be true like most people because it's DnT but at the end of the day they lack transparency which devalues the credibility even if they are real. Also, I'll point you to this, I'm sure you've seen this, and I'm sure you know they used the AoE strat in T10 to pull that off. https://twitter.com/Darkwis00/status/588015938542370817, how many of those parses you just linked did something similar, think a blm can pull 700 dps normally?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Monks should maintain their relevance. Dragon Kick is seriously overpowered and at the very least a top tier mnk can still pump out some pretty crazy numbers,hell in progression for FCOB double monk was the god tier setup because no one knew how to play ninja, and DRG was complete garbage until they buffed the class. However that was then, and this is now, and they are now facing the fact that DRG and NIN can generally out parse them which isn't necessarily an issue due to the fact that Mnk has more consistent form of utility in DK, Nin has goad, DRG has disembowel but during progression unless you're hitting a dps wall, DK is probably more important to you. If Monk didn't have DK i'd be more worried for the classes relevance but it's way too strong to be worried about it. When in content is on farm it's a different issue, and when echo is involved then it is an issue because there's less of a reason to bring one over someone who can just deal more damage. At the end of the day I don't think it's crazy, Monk had it's time to shine as the top DPS in the game, and it still does decent, but DRG got super buffed, and Ninja has been min maxed to the point of DRG and MNK and it just so happens to be awesome, I mean, what did you honestly expect to happen?

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Kill time 6:21 though. Probably one of their old parses posted on their Twitter. Top statics these days are more into running kill times rather than individual numbers since the group can adjust to rig anyone's number as they want.

If you want to nit pick you can go back to their Twitter and dig out some of the parses there where you can nit pick on other jobs like their BRD or whatsoever. 44X on T11? I'm sure everyone have seen BRDs parsed higher than that but is it laughable? I honestly don't think so. People are looking at their group DPS and kill time which they have always been out there setting the bar.

Unless you have the same kind of achievements as them I don't see how is it that you are actually laughing at anyone of them.

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So much this.

Early progression groups think MNK are OP with their Dragon Kick and Mantra, and that's really all that matters... I'm not saying MNK should be nerfed by any means, but for when it really matters, MNK are ahead of both DRG and NIN.

Once everyone starts getting more geared, and Dragon Kick/Mantra becomes less important(still important for less hardcore groups), it doesn't matter anyways... At that point, you should have no problem with DPS, and if your group does have it, you can't put that on MNK having a couple of points lower than a DRG/NIN...

I would like MNK to have another way of getting back GL stacks, or holding on to them in a better way, but as much as I would like them to get higher DPS too, they would have to nerf Dragon Kick/Mantra some then...

I don't see a reason we need a "way to keep stacks" or "Getting them back" - Multiplicative scaling is Monks' name of the game, and come HW, with GL4 we get

+36% Damage
+20% attackspeed
Those alone combined are 63.2% bonus damage.. and it only gets better when you use cooldowns; Internal Release goes from being a 15% (30% crit / 50% extra damage 30% of the time) average increase to a 24.48% increase, assuming no changes are made. Blood For Blood becomes 16.32% increased damage.

Even if we don't get more damage cooldowns we get 63.2% damage constantly from greased, +5% on fists of fire, and + 10% from Twin Snakes, + 10% from Dragon kick... We don't need anything, maybe a way to consume stacks and do liek a 4-500 potency attack?

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Originally Posted by Odowla

I don't see a reason we need a "way to keep stacks" or "Getting them back" - Multiplicative scaling is Monks' name of the game, and come HW, with GL4 we get

+36% Damage
+20% attackspeed
Those alone combined are 63.2% bonus damage.. and it only gets better when you use cooldowns; Internal Release goes from being a 15% (30% crit / 50% extra damage 30% of the time) average increase to a 24.48% increase, assuming no changes are made. Blood For Blood becomes 16.32% increased damage.

Even if we don't get more damage cooldowns we get 63.2% damage constantly from greased, +5% on fists of fire, and + 10% from Twin Snakes, + 10% from Dragon kick... We don't need anything, maybe a way to consume stacks and do liek a 4-500 potency attack?

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Are you just assuming we will get GL4? cause I haven't heard anything about that... Might very well be true though.

That being said, if we get GL4, then they would buff NIN/DRG accordingly, so that the difference would be exactly the same... Or they would have to find another way to balance that increase of DPS + DK/Mantra.

It's going to be even worse if we get GL4 btw... Then you have to build up 4 stacks before you can even start catching up to NIN/DRG DPS. I know that awesome players can keep the stacks in a lot of fights, but there are cases where it's impossible to do it. You might be able to keep them when everything goes perfect, but if doesn't you're screwed. Who knows how the fights will be in Alexander too...

I'm not asking for us to get an ability that gives you back all stacks or something, cause that would have to have as long CD as PB, which would be pointless... But why not get an OGC ability that gives 1 stack, and has pretty low CD(40 sec). If you lose all your stacks, you will still do lower DPS, but unless you have PB off CD(and don't want to save it for something), then it could help you get back some at least. It wouldn't refresh your GL duration though, because that would be too much.... Only give a stack

That, or some ability that refreshes your GL duration without having to use Demo/Snap...

Personally i think it will be MUCH better to get a passive that increase each Greased Lightning buff efects. Unless you burn perfect balance it takes quite a while to wind up all the buffs already, if we get another stack most normal fights will be almost over before we reach maximun power.

Also monk losing stacks is also problematic on a design point of view, since if any boss leaves the area for more than a few seconds monks instalose their stacks and have to build it again, making those kinds of mechanics non viable, or making monks useless on those fights

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Originally Posted by Spayd

Then I'd like you to take a look at this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=722665224

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nerf drg 2 op

They deserve it after being the underdogs for so long, good on them.

I would like to see more numbers though, am i the only one who gets off on seeing the parse numbers for Dps classes? its like number porn.

On topic though, i would like to just say all classes have their pros and cons, compatibility and synergy and monk is no exception, while from the numbers i've seen they're definitely not the best Dps in a fight that lasts longer than 5 minutes they are still fast and out damage most of the others in shorter fights, just my personal observation, but this game won't give you any penalties for choosing any of Dps classes, they're all capable of competing and bringing something unique to the table, for the others getting all "Omg your ninja parses 20 more than my monk, NERF TO OP!" as an example, you have to bare gear and situational aspects into it, because they're all very well balanced to the point were rotations, gear, positioning and your reaction time are more crucial.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

This is laughable, tell that monk to get good. Do not use this parse to compare monk and ninja please. Monk can do way more damage than that pre echo. And I agree with Odo, learn to weave and cover that blm for max raid dps. Dont get me started on GL4. The hype is too much for me :).

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Originally Posted by Spayd

Then I'd like you to take a look at this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=722665224

please not. PRE ECHO BUFF. So yes, this is laughable.

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only thing is laughable is you pretty much.

Parse is from Jan 2...MNK was using i125 Zodiac weapon and wasn't even that geared.

only persons with Dread weapon in that parse were the PLD and WHM.

We've reached that strange point again where people are trying to have an epeen contest....using other guilds parses :S

When it's a 10-20 DPS difference I think we're really starting to nitpick here. I don't know why people think MNK should have the highest damage - they have comparable damage to NIN and DRG and bring DK + traited Mantra. If you balance for skill and make one class superior in DPS and utility to the others if you can reach the skill cap, then that class becomes OP because everyone will play it and DRG/NIN will be left in the dust. This isn't like SMN who is far behind BLM, or WAR who was far behind PLD in terms of tanking capability in 2.0. This is literally whining about 10-20 DPS because "I have to work harderrrrr ; _ ;". You don't get a balanced game by making the harder to play classes more powerful.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

We've reached that strange point again where people are trying to have an epeen contest....using other guilds parses :S

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Lol, this is a first for me.

"Pfft, l2p scrub. Your deeps are so bad, check out my parse... from some other person, on another server, in another guild, that I don't know."

This has been pointed out a thousand times before but I can't stress it enough. Monk was absolutely invaluable during progression this patch, so invaluable that you barely saw any group without one, double monk even being one of the most popular group compositions early on. Now? Stuff is on farm, it doesn't matter at all really what you bring to a raid. Ppl do T12 with 4 Blm's just for the lulz. If anything the one to complain is still drg, even post buff, because even though drg's dps went up quite a bit and survibability is very good now, he still has slightly lower dps and significantly less utility than the other melee jobs.

Mnk and nin are still on par and while it's true that mnk requires more work than nin to reach those numbers, it's still not hard. Every mnk knows the tricks to keep stacks for every encounter by know and is able to execute them.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

This has been pointed out a thousand times before but I can't stress it enough. Monk was absolutely invaluable during progression this patch, so invaluable that you barely saw any group without one, double monk even being one of the most popular group compositions early on. Now? Stuff is on farm, it doesn't matter at all really what you bring to a raid. Ppl do T12 with 4 Blm's just for the lulz. If anything the one to complain is still drg, even post buff, because even though drg's dps went up quite a bit and survibability is very good now, he still has slightly lower dps and significantly less utility than the other melee jobs.

Mnk and nin are still on par and while it's true that mnk requires more work than nin to reach those numbers, it's still not hard. Every mnk knows the tricks to keep stacks for every encounter by know and is able to execute them.

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My group did progression with no MNK, so while they were useful, they definitely were not invaluable, especially after DRG buffs in 2.45.

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

Lol, this is a first for me.

"Pfft, l2p scrub. Your deeps are so bad, check out my parse... from some other person, on another server, in another guild, that I don't know."

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I think I'm starting to blur the line between posts here and reddit XD

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Originally Posted by Ephier

My group did progression with no MNK, so while they were useful, they definitely were not invaluable, especially after DRG buffs in 2.45.

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Invaluable, not neccessary to win. Also I was talking about very early progression, when ppl stepped into fcob with (pentamelded) 110 because not enough poetics/coil drops yet. That was also before drg buffs.

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

only thing is laughable is you pretty much.

Parse is from Jan 2...MNK was using i125 Zodiac weapon and wasn't even that geared.

only persons with Dread weapon in that parse were the PLD and WHM.

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Lol I was doing more than that with less gear please tell me more about getting good. If that was in fact a lucrezia parse their monk is not the greastest. Ive seen multiple lucrezia parses, the monk has yet to amaze me.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

When it's a 10-20 DPS difference I think we're really starting to nitpick here. I don't know why people think MNK should have the highest damage - they have comparable damage to NIN and DRG and bring DK + traited Mantra. If you balance for skill and make one class superior in DPS and utility to the others if you can reach the skill cap, then that class becomes OP because everyone will play it and DRG/NIN will be left in the dust. This isn't like SMN who is far behind BLM, or WAR who was far behind PLD in terms of tanking capability in 2.0. This is literally whining about 10-20 DPS because "I have to work harderrrrr ; _ ;". You don't get a balanced game by making the harder to play classes more powerful.

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Because devs said that is their intention that monk is the best single target damage dealer job.

You can reason to why is it from many ways, but is a fact that monk has the biggest requirements for optimal performance. And remember that some fights give the monk the middle finger in terms of performance (steps of faith for example where unless boss has stopped is too risky to do lateral hits or just bosses that dissapear from the area for more than 5 seconds leaving the monk with no GS stacks). Dragoons and Ninjas in comparison have little problem with boss mechanics in terms of a dps loss (aside Mudra lag problem and Dragoon is geting some love anyways in 3.0).

And about harder to play classes more powerful sorry but if they are less or similarly powerful, then why bother with them? High risk, High reward instead of Medium risk Medium reward sounds quite fair to me. On the last official census monks were dead last amongs with warriors as the less played jobs so its not like everyone and their mother are playing monks

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

Invaluable, not neccessary to win. Also I was talking about very early progression, when ppl stepped into fcob with (pentamelded) 110 because not enough poetics/coil drops yet. That was also before drg buffs.

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This^

There is an interview with 2 players from the FC Collision somewhere on Youtube, and they mentioned at one point that they think Dragon Kick and Mantra is OP, and that maybe even they should remove/nerf those effects, or give similar to other jobs...

We are talking about the group that got world first on T12, world second on T10, T11 and T13... So if they think it's that good, then I trust those words.

Later on when people get more gear, this doesn't apply to the same extent, but we are still talking about a reduction in magic taking (DK) and a very useful increase in healing (Mantra)... It's not like you become invincible as soon as you get some gear.

For your overall group DPS, the difference in DPS is so little that it won't really make a big difference. On the other hand, reducing magic damage and having mantra can easily be the difference between a wipe and a clear.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

....
On the last official census monks were dead last amongs with warriors as the less played jobs so its not like everyone and their mother are playing monks

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That's just because it's a hard job to play, and that scares a lot of players... If you could look at just people who actually raid, and not casuals, I think that number would go up some.

Like have been said, pretty much every early progression group in the game uses a MNK or two... How does that translate to them being under-powered?

Also, I don't think many here have actually said they don't want them to make some changes to MNK... but the thing is, if they are to increase their DPS to be above Nin and DRG, then they first have to either nerf DK, or they have to give the others some other utility that evens it out some, otherwise MNKs would be OP.

It's not MNK's maximum performance that needs changing, what needs changing is how easy they get to that maximum. Like you said, sometimes you lose your GL stacks without being able to do a thing, in those cases you should be able to either regain them faster than now (can't always rely on PB), or hold on to the stacks in another way. Don't want them to increase the GL duration though, cause MNKs should keep their high risk play style. That's based on the current abilities though... with heavensward, they might have to increase that duration for the new rotation we will be using.

I would actually like it if they did balance the Dragon Kick, and made MNK top of single target DPS again. MNKs are meant to be kings of DPS after all.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

High risk, High reward instead of Medium risk Medium reward sounds quite fair to me.

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Except it isn't.

Consider the following:

Let's say NIN, on average, parsed at 610 with BiS. Let's say MNK, who has to work harder to keep up his DPS, parsed at 690. 80 DPS difference is quite a significant amount, so we'll just say that we're buffing them to that point.

Now, usually everyone complaining about MNK's DPS (or any class' DPS for that matter) like to pretend that they're in world first progression groups where their party composition actually matters. So, with this in mind, would a world first progression group want the DPS that's 80 DPS behind, or the one that takes a little bit more out of you to play but brings with it 80 more DPS?

The answer... is of course MNK. In fact in this scenario (as has been proved in the past before people learned how to play NIN), MNK does significant enough damage over NIN to not even warrant bringing a NIN along side the MNK. You'd just take 2 MNKs, a BRD, and BLM.

So, at that point, where is DRG and NIN? Does NIN offer anything besides a DPS increase? No. The reason Goad exists is to increase raid DPS (though it does less of a job now than it did before) and Trick Attack is the same deal. If MNK is significantly outparsing NIN, there is no need for either. DRG literally only increases BRD's DPS as it's utility and, well, it'll be less than MNKs.

So we have the other 2 melee jobs collecting dust, and MNK straight up dominating. Not only in DPS, but in raid utility as well. What would we call that? Ah, yes, overpowered. After this point, since no one wants nerfs, they would bring DRG and NIN up to par with MNK, and then one would ever so slightly edge out over the others, people would complain, there'd be a buff again, the cycle repeats itself endlessly.

Right now, all 3 melee jobs are in a great position. Even if you brought MNK for world first progression in 3.0 Alex, you'd also want either a DRG or a NIN for the extra DPS. This could very well change in 3.0 as we don't know what future abilities are really coming (aside from a few pretty animations), but as of right now I don't think any of the melee jobs need a buff or a nerf. Everything is safely balanced, especially right now since everyone is decked out in i130 and the highest raid content has Echo.

I mean that's the risk/reward. Drop stacks? Oh, well, figure out to not drop them. And getting GL4 is a very safe assumption; you always got your Maim and Mend or w/e at level 20, 40, and now, probably 60, same with Gl2 at 20, GL3 at 40, etc.

Yeah, sure, it makes our stacks "harder" to get, but, i mean... Dragoon's first "damage" ability is 4 gcd's in. Ninja's is 5. etc. Its not like a 4 GCD windup is the end of the world.
On the note of needing to build stacks; In my experience whenever we've pulled without my PB, I've sat higher than when i do have PB. It's all in how you pop your cooldowns; stack them starting at GL2 + Pop potion on the GCD you get GL3, collect 900 dps burst and sit at ~630 afterward. Thanks, OP cooldown stacking ;o

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Originally Posted by Ephier

My group did progression with no MNK, so while they were useful, they definitely were not invaluable, especially after DRG buffs in 2.45.

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He's refering to day one progression where DRG was worthless and MNK was the holy grail of DPS at the time.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Lol I was doing more than that with less gear please tell me more about getting good. If that was in fact a lucrezia parse their monk is not the greastest. Ive seen multiple lucrezia parses, the monk has yet to amaze me.

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only thing amaze me about you were your T9 drg merged parsers, funny you were bragging about high DPS there lawl.

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

only thing amaze me about you were your T9 drg merged parsers, funny you were bragging about high DPS there lawl.

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You realize I out dpsed almost every NA monk and nin for FCOB before echo right? Please learn your place. What can I say, I was a shitter. Even then if it had been unmerged I still did more then what that agruement was about and I didnt mean for this to turn into a talk about my dps or that monk in that parse. I was just saying that the parse linked was not a good comparison for nin vs mnk. I mean the nin beat the mnk by almost 40 dps thats no where close to right lol.