SMN redesign in expansion?

Furthermore, this will make summoner even more interesting as you can give special quest or level up for each one of your summoning pet to gain new skills. For each pet you summon, they don't use as much MP, and they only last for a set time, let's say 1 minute, in which they de-spawn after the time is up. Summoning cool down can be 20 seconds for each pet. Perhaps the cast time is lowered too to 2 second per summon.

This change will actually make summoner act as a summoner and make it much more wanted and fun. You can set specific skills to each summon and let them do whatever you desire when they are summoned. For example, you can learn Stoneskin II and have Titan use it every 30 seconds after you summon it. So in that period, your Titan will cast 2 stoneskin II in the duration of its summon and do nothing else. Or you can have Garuda use healing wind on whoever for the duration of the time. (Maybe it is a single target skill and garuda cast it ever 5 seconds on the person with the lowest hp?) Meanwhile, you can set damage attack for Ifrit and Garuda so that they will automatic charge towards the mob you have targeted them with and attack them until the mob is dead. If the mob is dead, the summons just hangs there until they de-spawn or gain enmity on something else.

Finally, this way, the summoner will always be summoning. The game play will change. Aetherflow will be dedicated for mana drain and solve the mp problem. The summoner can be either support or dps then. They can either have DoTs, Ruin II, Carbuncle, and 3 random summons doing DPS on the field, or they can heal with physick, virus, and have 3 summoning buffing/healing (Titan = Stoneskin II / Garuda = Hastega / Ifrit = Howl, buff attack) and be a support. This will make summoner a contender to all the other jobs. Problem solved!~

My god. No offense but im tired of hearing peoples terrible ideas for remakes of a class, that will never happen nor work in the game as it current is without being useless/overpowered.

They remind me of Team Rocket. Someone teach the kid how to bypass the 1000 word limit.

Nanda kanda to kikare tara...

or would you prefer:

Prepare for trouble!


Yggberry, if you edit your original post, you can then bypass the 1000 character limit for posting. It saves cluttering up the thread with additional/unneeded posts. :)

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

My god. No offense but im tired of hearing peoples terrible ideas for remakes of a class, that will never happen nor work in the game as it current is without being useless/overpowered.

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Seeing this in people's messages or rants about other peoples suggestions, really makes me laugh...

I LOVE how people say what will never happen in a game they have absolutely 0 control over what is done with it other than to log in and play...

However... I do agree that Yggberry's suggestion is way OP and outrageous for this game lol.

Honestly, the biggest thing that everyone that comes to this thread, whether just to read or respond, needs to understand is that each post made is someone stating their opinions and ideas. Disagreeing with someone over their opinion versus your own opinion doesn't make anyone in that situation right or wrong. It just means that you both differ in what you believe in and want. Having said that I feel that the current iteration of the "Summoner" isn't broken or suspected of being that way by people complaining. Most of those complaints are actually directed in wanting a Summoner that fits their ideas and wants for the job.

Most can agree that the "Summoner" we have now does not feel like it should, but at the same time it isn't a horrible job by any means. It has things we don't all like and stuff that needs adjusting, but the people wanting a redesign really just want their ideal summoner job in the game. I think those same people feel like SE gave them Arcanist with the "Summoner" label slapped on it and that is the overall issue. When you remove that label and call the current "Summoner" job something like, say "Arcanist" I am pretty sure people wouldn't be nearly as bothered and would not even talk about a redesign at that point. I think If that became the outcome people would focus on minor changes to fix some of the flaws to bring it more in-line with other jobs for current and future content.

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Originally Posted by Nyremis

True Facts

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Well put

*Applauds*

My Two cent

Enkindle on 7-10 minute cool down BUT it is per Pet. So I can use it on Garuda it will go on cool down. If I decide to switch to Ifrit or Titan it will be available. If I switch back to Garuda it will still be on cooldown still unless 7-10 minutes has passed. This will promote pet switches

Needs more MP or reduce the MP cost of skills.

As someone mentioned above wait for the expansion and see what SE does. Storywise we know a way to gather aether without using crystals. Might change SMN job.

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Originally Posted by melflomil

My Two cent

Enkindle on 7-10 minute cool down BUT it is per Pet.

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I get where you were going with this, but 7-10 minutes is too excessive. If that's the case, they should just keep Enkindle as is (5m cooldown wise) and just make it per pet. But to be honest, I think it would be better to cut enkindle down to 3 minutes, whether they were to make it per pet or keep as is...

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

*snip*

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I still think Summoner should be able to "bind" with their Egi. The rival in the Summoner job quests can do this, Iceheart can do this, so why cant we? I'm not saying turn into a massive primal like Shiva, but gain "armour" depending on what Primal you merge with. Titan merge can be you turning into an emergency tank for several seconds if things go horribly wrong, giving Titan Egi a use in groups. Ifrit Merge can be powerful Single target DPS, and Garuda can get massive AOE power. It would not only make Summoner more interesting to play but make them a significant difference to Arcanist rather than the Egi's being a paint job of Carbuncles with 10 extra potency.

decrease atherflow cd to 40s to give smn more mp management, decrease enkindle cd to at least 120/180s to give smn more dps output, reduce pet damage especially to melee type (ifrit n titan) egi to make it more efficient in combat, replace rs

Reduce atherflow cd to 40s for better smn mp management, reduce enkindle cd to 120s or 180s for dps boost, reduce pet damage esp for melee type (ifrit n titan) egi for more effiency in battle, reduce ruin II mana compsuption to be like ruin I because in late game ruin II will be more effective than ruin I due to high speed phase mechanic, make 3 disaster direct skill with higher potency like 190 potency but can only be use when enemy hp below 20%, replace physick skill with buff skill like contagion.

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Originally Posted by Cattastro

Reduce atherflow cd to 40s for better smn mp management, reduce enkindle cd to 120s or 180s for dps boost, reduce pet damage esp for melee type (ifrit n titan) egi for more effiency in battle, reduce ruin II mana compsuption to be like ruin I because in late game ruin II will be more effective than ruin I due to high speed phase mechanic, make 3 disaster direct skill with higher potency like 190 potency but can only be use when enemy hp below 20%, replace physick skill with buff skill like contagion.

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Not going to happen because it also affects scholar, possible but unlikely 120s, would be nice, not going to happen because it also affects scholar, theres another thread discussing tri disaster, and not going to happen because it also affects scholar.

then just change tri disaster to be buff like contagion or any direct damage dps..and reduce enkindle cd to 120s shuld be enough..:)

i think mana comsumption for ruin II can be reduce although effect sch since sch main is for healing..if sch play dps..surely will cause party wipe..but if that the case..they maybe can enhance the pet to be more durable and a little bit stronger...

i like the egi merge with smn idea..look like nice..

i vote 2 minutes for enkindle (120s) coz it only do 200-250 potency..equal to blm fire 3..its the only dps burst for smn..

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Originally Posted by Cebo

Solution? One idea is to change SMN's to be more like DAoC's Theurgists. Theurgists didn't have a permanent pet, but could keep chain summoning elementals that would taunt, deal damage, or buff the party, as the situation required. It's a design for a pet-class that I've rarely seen replicated in MMO's.

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I played also DAoC for many years..

but it seems like you have no clue what summoner in the FF series is like.


i liked the version in FFXI where you commanded your pet's skills directly.. they have been as powerful as blm spells and regular dd attacks.. and also buffs for the party as well. The pet drained the MP of the summoner over time.


i would have liked more the idea of the AION summoner.. he had some DoT effects.. but also skills that had a use time and which commanded the pet to perform a specific skill.

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

I still think Summoner should be able to "bind" with their Egi. The rival in the Summoner job quests can do this, Iceheart can do this, so why cant we? I'm not saying turn into a massive primal like Shiva, but gain "armour" depending on what Primal you merge with. Titan merge can be you turning into an emergency tank for several seconds if things go horribly wrong, giving Titan Egi a use in groups. Ifrit Merge can be powerful Single target DPS, and Garuda can get massive AOE power. It would not only make Summoner more interesting to play but make them a significant difference to Arcanist rather than the Egi's being a paint job of Carbuncles with 10 extra potency.

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Not sure why you quoted me lol, but I don't object to this idea. I would love to take on the form of the primal for a few minutes or toggle them on and do my rotations through the primal itself. Maybe the timer could run on the TP stat (like BRD songs with MP) so that once its over you have to have 1000 tp before you can go into that mode again?

Something like that would substantially differentiate SMN from ARC.

I'm liking it too, especially using TP as a secondary resource for it. That way its a choice between increased movement speed and a damage/temporary tank CD. :)

I have made some suggestions for the Pets of the Summoner

HERE

Because i think one of the big issues of SMN also is.. that only Garuda is worthy in the Group. therefore i think it'd be cool to implement Group buff skills (like in FF11) for each pet to make it more valuable in group play.
so that the pets have 5 skills instead of just 4

something like this:
Group Buffs:
- Titan increases the physical defense of all group members by 10%
- garuda increases the magical defense of all group members by 10%
- Ifrit buffs the weapons with an "Enfire" of all group members (Fire Weapon Proc - active)
- Ramuh buffs the armors with "shock spikes" (lightning damage with additional stun effect) (Lightning Armor Proc - passive)

So if you have more than one SMN in group.. it could be worthy to have two different pets out at the same time.. for different buff effects

and redefining the roles for example for ifrit.. making it an AoE pet..Because right now.. its not really clear for what i do use Ifrit if not for damage... but for damage (on single mobs) Garuda is the much better choice now. So why not using him for example in dungeon speed runs where you pull around 10+ mobs? giving him frontal aeo damage, pbaeo damage + DoT effect etc..
Ramuh as a mage with DoT and stun attacks. (as lightning element in FF14 is charactarized for DoT and stuns) and redesigning some of the existing pet skills as well.

you can read all my suggestions at the link above.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

I have made some suggestions for the Pets of the Summoner

HEREBecause i think one of the big issues of SMN also is.. that only Garuda is worthy in the Group. therefore i think it'd be cool to implement Group buff skills (like in FF11) for each pet to make it more valuable in group play.
so that the pets have 5 skills instead of just 4

something like this:
Group Buffs:
- Titan increases the physical defense of all group members by 10%
- garuda increases the magical defense of all group members by 10%
- Ifrit buffs the weapons with an "Enfire" of all group members (Fire Weapon Proc - active)
- Ramuh buffs the armors with "shock spikes" (lightning damage with additional stun effect) (Lightning Armor Proc - passive)

So if you have more than one SMN in group.. it could be worthy to have two different pets out at the same time.. for different buff effects

and redefining the roles for example for ifrit.. making it an AoE pet..Because right now.. its not really clear for what i do use Ifrit if not for damage... but for damage (on single mobs) Garuda is the much better choice now. So why not using him for example in dungeon speed runs where you pull around 10+ mobs? giving him frontal aeo damage, pbaeo damage + DoT effect etc..
Ramuh as a mage with DoT and stun attacks. (as lightning element in FF14 is charactarized for DoT and stuns) and redesigning some of the existing pet skills as well.

you can read all my suggestions at the link above.

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The problem with the Summoner is pet mechanics and the Arcanist needs to be reworked. Each Egi should have 8 skills instead of 4 and give group buffs
Ifrit- single target burst pet with frontal cones and aoe around him. group physical attack increase.
Garuda- aoe burst pet. group magic attack increase
Titan- Tank pet - group physical defense.
Leviathan - magic single target bursts. group health regen.
Ramuh- AoE stun. group stun resistance
Shiva- Magic based Tank Pet- group magic defense.

In this thread there's a suggestion for using Carbuncle as main pet and changing all Summoner's job skills except for Fester into single-effect summons of each Primal, thus allowing for much more gameplay variety and making the job feel like a true Summoner.

Here are some examples of mine (they're all off-GCD skills and each one prevents you from casting another summon for 5sec after use):

Ifrit: single target attack with a potency of 110 and 2sec Stun effect, 30sec cooldown;
Titan: reduce the damage taken by the user and the pet by 20% for 15sec, 120sec cooldown;
Garuda: aoe attack to the target and the enemies nearby it with a potency of 90, 30sec cooldown;
Leviathan: delivers an attack with a potency of 30 every time the user or the pet get hit for 20sec, 120sec cooldown;
Moggle Mog XII: refresh MP with a potency of 80 for 20sec (similar to WHM's Shroud of Saints, it's an easy fix to MP issues), 180sec cooldown;
Ramuh: single target attack with a potency of 140 which spreads and hits nearby enemies with a potency of 70, 90sec cooldown;
Shiva: aoe attack with a potency of 30 and a 20sec Bind effect (this would actually substitute Tri-disaster), 30sec cooldown;
Odin: instantly kills the target (works only on trash mobs, misses on others), 300sec cooldown.

P.S: The potencies and durations are just there to give a general idea, they would probably need to be adjusted and balanced according to the other jobs and skills.

I think there is some legality preventing Square Enix from using any suggestions from players as we are not employees of Square Enix. I can't think of a single mmo that did that.

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

In this thread there's a suggestion for using Carbuncle as main pet and changing all Summoner's job skills except for Fester into single-effect summons of each Primal, thus allowing for much more gameplay variety and making the job feel like a true Summoner.

Here are some examples (they're all off-GCD skills and each one prevents you from casting another summon for 5sec after use):

Ifrit: single target attack with a potency of 110 and 2sec Stun effect, 30sec cooldown;
Titan: reduce the damage taken by the user and the pet by 20% for 15sec, 120sec cooldown;
Garuda: aoe attack to the target and the enemies nearby it with a potency of 90, 30sec cooldown;
Leviathan: delivers an attack with a potency of 30 every time the user or the pet get hit for 20sec, 120sec cooldown;
Moggle Mog XII: refresh MP with a potency of 80 for 20sec (similar to WHM's Shroud of Saints, it's an easy fix to MP issues), 180sec cooldown;
Ramuh: single target attack with a potency of 140 which spreads and hits nearby enemies with a potency of 70, 90sec cooldown;
Shiva: aoe attack with a potency of 30 and a 20sec Bind effect (this would actually substitute Tri-disaster), 30sec cooldown;
Odin: instantly kills the target (works only on trash mobs, misses on others), 300sec cooldown.

P.S: The potencies and durations are just there to give a general idea, they would probably need to be adjusted and balanced according to the other jobs and skills.

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Thanks. But just for clarity, those examples are not from my post which you linked.
They are your own suggestions =)

I think something like the higher tier Carbuncle main pet class would be cool. If I could level Archanist with Carbuncle as my main pet, but draw on skills from all classes or have unique high level specials; I would prefer that over deciding on Summoner or Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool

Just for clarity, those examples are not from my post which you linked.
They are your own suggestions =)

The ones I suggested were ON the GCD, there were only 3, and they were meant to replace a Ruin cast or two in the normal spell rotation 3 times a minute (each has a 60sec CD)
Obviously more would come with the expansion though

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Yeah I forgot to specify, sorry. I added more of them to fit with the new 3.0 job skills and thought of making them free and off-GCD (like Enkindle) since there are no GCD skills in the game with a longer and separate cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

off-GCD (like Enkindle) since there are no GCD skills in the game with a longer and separate cooldown.

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Actually, yeah that makes sense.
Though they have a 4 sec cast time too. Not sure if you can have a separate longer cooldown and a cast time in this game.

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Originally Posted by Romsca

I think there is some legality preventing Square Enix from using any suggestions from players as we are not employees of Square Enix. I can't think of a single mmo that did that.

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I can think of one. World of Warcraft.

Two instances that come to mind, and I only remember these as they are to do with the only class I really gave two flicks about:

Rolling Blood Pact into Dark Intent. This was suggested via Twitter (iirc). Sometime during MoP.

There was a warlock 'tank stance' spell that got its name (Dark Apotheosis) from an MMO-Champion forum poster, when one of the developers in charge of the MoP warlock overhaul used to frequent the warlock sub-forum around about beta MoP to early MoP. Sadly, this spell no longer exists in game.

Actually, as far as all these long lists of spells that people are coming up with, they would probably have better luck if they didn't give specific values to the spells they suggest. These are probably more likely to be rejected outright without a second thought (Overpowered... Underpowered... Meh... lolwut?!). Leaving things more vague, along with a reason as to why you feel this change is needed probably allows the developers to do what they do, and more likely to incorperate the idea if it aligns with their vision for the class/job.

The problem with Summoner is a DoT Damage Dealer is impractical for todays MMORPGS. When it comes to DPS in this game its about killing things as quickly and as efficiently as possible which DoT jobs are poor at. The reason why Scholar works so well is because the DoTs are secondary it's primary job is healing. The Summoner has problems now because the content is designed around bursting mobs down quickly and AoE which the Summoner lack. To solve the problem I suggest making DoTs the secondary source of damage and the Pet the primary source by giving them 8 very potent abilities and a unique role.
Ifrit Egi- physical single target bursts with frontal cones and abilities like Eruption and Radiant Plumes
Titan Egi- Physical Single Tank with abilities like Weight of the Lands and Tremors
Garuda Egi- Magic AoE Bursts with frontal cones, frontal cleaves and abilities like Great Whirlwind and Friction
Leviathan Egi- Debuffer Pet with abilities like wavespine and wavespume
Ramuah Egi- AoE Stun with abilities like Rollimg Thunder and Thunderstorm
Shiva Egi- Magic AoE Tank with conal attacks and abilities like hailstorm and avalanche

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The problem with Summoner is a DoT Damage Dealer is impractical for todays MMORPGS. When it comes to DPS in this game its about killing things as quickly and as efficiently as possible which DoT jobs are poor at. The reason why Scholar works so well is because the DoTs are secondary it's primary job is healing. The Summoner has problems now because the content is designed around bursting mobs down quickly and AoE which the Summoner lack. To solve the problem I suggest making DoTs the secondary source of damage and the Pet the primary source by giving them 8 very potent abilities and a unique role.

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It's true that SMN needs a bit more burst damage, but a DoT-based dps is fine in this game; IMO, the problem of SMN is the whole Egi system.
Even if you add more pets and give each one of them one of the 4 different specializations (tank, melee st, ranged st, aoe), most people would probably end up using only the strongest one anyway since there are no real uses for the others, like we've already seen it happen with Ifrit-egi and Titan-egi.
Besides, with 3.0 we'll also probably get 2 new primals, for a total of 10 (if you don't count extras like Bahamut), but with this system I don't think we'll ever have more than 4-5 Egis... Aren't Summoners supposed to use ALL summons?
The Egi system is very impractical and it also requires a lot of extra development compared to other jobs, so honestly I don't really see any reason to keep it.

Oh, Egis are also incredibly ugly.

DoT based DPS is highly inefficient in this game sure they can do the content but it's far more easier on jobs that use direct damage and bursts because content is designed around DPS being able to bursting things down quickly. Summoners lack in all areas of DPS that matters in this game.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

DoT based DPS is highly inefficient in this game sure they can do the content but it's far more easier on jobs that use direct damage and bursts.

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That's more due to the potency of our DoT's. In most other MMO's, DoT abilties have higher overall damage than a direct damage attack, at the cost of delivering that damage over time. But here, our strongest DoT, Bio 2, has a total potency of 350, which takes 30 seconds to deal its damage. While Dragoon's Full Thrust is already at 360 potency and Ninja's Aeolian Edge at 320. Hell, even Bard's DoT's do a total of 310 potency (Venomous Bite) and 330 potency (Windbite) over 18 seconds. Despite SMN being the "DoT" class, their DoT's are really not that strong.

As an example, in WoW, a mage's Fireball does 159% of spellpower, and Frostbolt does 119%. The Warlock's primary DoT does 234% spellpower over 18 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Cebo

That's more due to the potency of our DoT's. In most other MMO's, DoT abilties have higher overall damage than a direct damage attack, at the cost of delivering that damage over time. But here, our strongest DoT, Bio 2, has a total potency of 350, which takes 30 seconds to deal its damage. While Dragoon's Full Thrust is already at 360 potency and Ninja's Aeolian Edge at 320. Hell, even Bard's DoT's do a total of 310 potency (Venomous Bite) and 330 potency (Windbite) over 18 seconds. Despite SMN being the "DoT" class, their DoT's are really not that strong.

As an example, in WoW, a mage's Fireball does 159% of spellpower, and Frostbolt does 119%. The Warlock's primary DoT does 234% spellpower over 18 seconds.

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The problem is SE doesn't want the balance the DoTs like that so they should just overhaul the Summoner to be a direct damge and burst job.

Well, however the devs decided to go forward, I'm sure most people on the forums have made their stances clear. Just a matter of 'wait and see now' as far as I'm concerned. I would expect they do some sort of class/job previews before 3.0 lands.

They can't make SMN a direct damage and burst job. The other Caster is a direct damage and burst job. They need to differentiate the classes enough so they won't be CCs. If SMN ended up being a DD and Burst class like the BLM, then people would choose whatever is stronger, which would likely be SMN lol. What they need is more than 2 friggen casting DoM jobs.

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

They can't make SMN a direct damage and burst job. The other Caster is a direct damage and burst job. They need to differentiate the classes enough so they won't be CCs. If SMN ended up being a DD and Burst class like the BLM, then people would choose whatever is stronger, which would likely be SMN lol. What they need is more than 2 friggen casting DoM jobs.

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Ninja and Dragoon have roughly the same oGCD burst, DoT potency, and combo scaling. Yet we have both, and they feel quite different. A CD- or setup-variegated DD DoM would still feel very different from the Fire-spam + Procs BLM. There is no reason to think that they would end up carbon copies just because they would both have little dependence on DoTs and can unload a high amount of damage in a short time. The DoT vs. DD "niche" does not vary playstyle as much as you seem here to think, and other elements likely far more. [Furthermore, a class will not be excluded according to its comparison only with it's 'carbon copies'; it will be compared with any other job that can fill its same slot and apply the same (if useful) limitbreak. BLM, DD vs. DoT class though it may be, already somewhat pushes SMN out of FCoB through its usually superior dps.]

My two cents: with the expansion still a ways off, they should have enough time to make it coherent (giving an actual reason for an interplay to the use of both unaspected disease-like DoTs and pets), make it fun, and make it balanced. But that's only if they decide it's worth the bother. For now I would just hope that the number of threads on SMN, useless or not, would be enough to show the general dissatisfaction with the job. As the BLM playerbase seems much less complaintive and yet is receiving a class overhaul, I can only expect that the SMN will as well.

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Originally Posted by Cebo

That's more due to the potency of our DoT's. In most other MMO's, DoT abilties have higher overall damage than a direct damage attack, at the cost of delivering that damage over time. But here, our strongest DoT, Bio 2, has a total potency of 350, which takes 30 seconds to deal its damage. While Dragoon's Full Thrust is already at 360 potency and Ninja's Aeolian Edge at 320. Hell, even Bard's DoT's do a total of 310 potency (Venomous Bite) and 330 potency (Windbite) over 18 seconds. Despite SMN being the "DoT" class, their DoT's are really not that strong.

As an example, in WoW, a mage's Fireball does 159% of spellpower, and Frostbolt does 119%. The Warlock's primary DoT does 234% spellpower over 18 seconds.

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Blizzard I - 170, Fire I (AF3) - e280(?), Bio - 240, Miasma - 300, Bio II - 350. Astral Fire's damage massive bonus is the only thing really throwing things off that scale.

Full Thrust is a 3-part move with an average potency of (150/200/360 -> 710/3 ->) 236.67. The strength of over half the chain's power resting in the last ability is Life Surge's auto-crit, but the power-per-GCD-execution is actually well less than your longer DoTs. I will agree though that SMN DoTs by no means feel especially strong. That they are called the 'DoT' class probably refers only to the gap in per-execute power between their DoTs and their filler (Ruin). Bio II does 350 - Windbite does 310. Ruin does 80 - Heavy Shot does 150. The ability to transfer the entirety of that component of dps (essentially all but pet and Ruin, at ~22% and ~20% of dps respectively, iirc) from ST to 4-target AoE dps is probably the other reason.