yea, except those don't carry a monthly fee to play it either....Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
Cash Shop: Stifling development.
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12-19-2014, 12:06 PMDyvid
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12-19-2014, 12:07 PMZumiDoesn't matter if a game has a monthly fee or not they still want more money by selling what is essentially dlc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
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12-19-2014, 12:16 PMCynric
I'd like to post some food for thought. Yoshida said we wont be going F2P ever, We now have a Cash shop, Yoshida also said he'd like to make FF14 available to as many players as possible and P2P/F2P aren't the only models for MMO's available nor the best ones.
Is it possible we may be seeing FF14 go B2P in the future? With a subscription service available for certain bonuses such as continued Veteran rewards, more characters per server, and certain vanity exclusives? etc.
B2P/Premium/Cash Shop - Available to all, Exclusives offering no extreme P2W advantage for Premium, Cash Shop to gain income from Subscribers of premium as well as non subscribers while keeping the game hugely accessible to increase the ability to make more income and appeal to F2P/P2P players.
Not saying this is a model I would personally enjoy or not, But it seems like where we are headed. -
12-19-2014, 12:53 PMGramulAnd you're fine with it literally coming at your expense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
And I'm not using the word literal for cheap groundless emphasis; I mean it is literally at your own expense.
You could have the content in game though a standard system, but not only are you expected to pay even more for it, but the way to get it is totally divorced from actual gameplay.
I'd probably be better with it if you could buy it with disgustingly large amounts of in game gold, but as it is, it's just looking for ways for the customer to pay more than they need to. Double dipping is an anti-consumer practice only justified by the assumption that the extra income goes directly to making the game better. -
12-19-2014, 03:05 PMLaraulTo clarify:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
Since time = money, this makes logical sense. I like the idea... It would allow people to pay for their subscriptions via the in-game currency, which they've spent time earning. And it would allow players who have less time to play to earn gold they simply don't have the time to play. It's legit and secure, and would take business away from RMT.Quote:
We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system. A few other online games offer a similar option, and players have suggested that they’d be interested in seeing something along those lines in WoW. We agree it could be a good fit for the game, and we look forward to any feedback you have as we continue to look into this feature.
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12-19-2014, 03:16 PMZumi
I saw Bllizzard thinking about doing that for their patch 6.1. Eve and Wildstar already do it and it is successful. I wish SE would consider something similar. It pretty much gets rid of rmt and be legit. If you have a lot of time to play you can save RL money. If you don't have a lot of time to play you can catch up by buying game time tokens for people.
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12-19-2014, 04:08 PMBreathlessTaoActually, Yoshi said they "could consider free-to-play". Mind you, he seems to have said a few other things as well and look where we are now... /shrugQuote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
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12-19-2014, 04:17 PMFelisHmmQuote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
Premium = what we have now with entry/standard/legacy sub (with no extra costs)
free = with enough (anti-rmt) restrictions that the player pay the sub if he want to play it seriously. Also no access to cash shop without a sub -
12-19-2014, 04:19 PMCynricSeemed more like he was saying "if our players want f2p we may consider it" but I don't think anyone really wants to see ff14 be F2P. The answer was a pretty generic "we will try to do what our players want" answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathlessTao
That's not to say it will or wont happen just that I didn't quite get the vibe that they were considering it at this very moment as a model. Just that he wants people to play.
Yeah something like that. I don't know if I'd necessarily want to see that kind of payment model myself. But it seems like where the design of recent content is headed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
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12-20-2014, 01:02 AMAdrian74
They are always the same three or four desperately trying to find reasons for protecting the cash shop...
At least... The good part when we will have armors and a super mega big full cash shop and a lot of stuff of it.... Is that I'll laugh a lot remembering these days.... Of course it won't be worth of fixing the bad part of it, leaving the game... Let's pray the cash shop won't advance as these three or four would want.
PS: I know some of them will start now with their pathetic argument nº3* (Oh! Now you go with personal attacks?! So loooow!). I'm not, it's just what I see, always the same three or four showing in the threads of people concerned about what's happening... In somehow, it feels like if I'd be dealing with street merchants. ("But don't you need a new TV?!", "No", "It is last technology!", "No, I have one", "But this one is ecological, and it has smart tv, and it has internet, and it can prepare coffe for you and tell you good morning, you'll regret your entire life for not buying it, it is the future of TVs, the revolution. ")
And remember, SADLY, F2P games are nowadays a dying breed. We must fully enjoy the remaining ones, and even protect them if we can, not helping in their destruction. I fear that in probably 10 years in the future I won't be able to play a decent mmorpg anymore because there won't be any remaining game without the ideology of play with the kid's (And not so kids) minds to extract all their money. -
12-20-2014, 01:21 AMKuolemaIt isn't that a few people are defending the cash shop, they just realize that the cash shop is a fact of gaming life. I know you vehemently deny this fact but denying it doesn't make it any less true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian74
If possible can we please allow these pro and anti cash shop threads to die. Everything that could be said has been said. -
12-20-2014, 01:39 AMAdrian74Probably they didn't know previous gaming eras after all where cash shops had nothing to be in. A cash shop shouldn't even be in a subscription model for starting.... But, oh, geez... New times, new demons. Worst thing is that you're right, people nowadays thinks that money and games are super linked factors. I can already foresee a future where games won't be anymore games, just brainwashing business for make people spend and spend more and more money. Let's pray for the industry of videogames to not evolve into such a thing. (Well, 90% of it already did it after all, so called ''''''FREE'''' to play cancer.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuolema
Meanwhile, let's enjoy the earth of videogames before Mr.$ and Mr.€ Meteorites come wipe it. -
12-20-2014, 01:44 AMAlberelWithout these discussions there would be no one to tell the devs when enough was enough and they would quite literally sell everything in the cash shop if they believed they could get away with it. Players such as yourself are a serious problem as you argue as though the developers can do no wrong and such will bend over and take anything they give us. The reality is players arguing against the cash shop keeps the devs in check and makes them think twice about how far they're willing to push things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuolema
There are very few MMOs out there that didn't prove the slippery slope 'fallacy' to actually be true. The majority of cash shop introductions I've seen have gotten progressively worse and worse over time, with players feeling more and more pressured to buy in order to get the same enjoyment they once had. Players such as yourself facilitate this course of events by essentially saying you don't care as long as the content of the shop is not something you're interested in. Of course as soon as they overstep your own personal limits with regards to what can be sold you'll blow your top and come screaming on here. It's the typical 'not in my backyard' problem and it is incredibly sad to see.
Realising that the cash shop is here to stay is one thing, but it is entirely absurd for a customer to defend a business' attempts to milk more money out of them. It's like your energy supplier putting their prices up and you just saying they'll provide a better service for it... in reality all that extra money just goes to their shareholders. Very little of it actually goes into anything for the consumers. It is really no different here, especially when things like the Sleipnir mount are proven cut content. -
12-20-2014, 01:49 AMAdrian74Please, we need more like you, seriously...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
And I totally agree. People that goes defend cash shops and to tell the ones that are against it to 'stop it already' / 'oh, not this again', etc etc are part of the problem by assimilating that everything's alright and letting the virus expand and expand until....
Until there's no cure! Until it affects them too and then they cries won't be enough, because it will be too late, until the little joyful pearls of divine gaming we have without being P2W stuff will also get contaminated and finishing being more of the same psychological game to extract money.
If you want to defend cash shops and stuff like that, go to the thousand games abusing of that already, let us enjoy the final remaining Subscription Fee Model ones. It's even common sense and balance... Why defending something that is aleady the 95% of the videogames industry? Let the remaining pure games be pure, the industry is enough corrupted already. -
12-20-2014, 01:51 AMKuolema
Forums don't do tell the devs anything. Money talks louder than forums. If a game implements something that people don't like then no one is going to pay for it. The same goes for a MMO. People can feel free to stop paying their monthly sub and move on. If enough people stop paying then and only then will devs and companies start to take notice.
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12-20-2014, 01:56 AMTupsiUm no - I've known MMOs since they were considered 'MUDs' and even the ones prior to - Heck I even played basically every game system prior to probably even before you were born. Knowing that microtransactions are a part of gaming in this day and age is like knowing Digital Downloads are a part of gaming now and denying that would be silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian74
It will never go back to pre-microtransaction because gamers have proven it's a good source of money for companies to invest in. You all signed onto it when people decided to buy DLC and pay for 'Early Access' or throw your money at Farmville and Candy Crush Saga. Cash Shops have become a norm in MMORPGs just like the above example.
Why not? You agreed to the terms that your subscription fee only gives you access to the game, it didn't exactly say it gives you free access to everything else. You still have to buy expansion packs or add-on type content packs, complain about that too. I mean, we pay a sub fee, why am I still buying an expansion pack? Why is it not free?Quote:
A cash shop shouldn't even be in a subscription model for starting
You do realize this has always been the case..right? That's what console exclusives, "updated systems" and "ports" were ever since the 90s. Nintendo was notorious for it...or did you simply forget that?Quote:
just brainwashing business for make people spend and spend more and more money.
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12-20-2014, 01:58 AMKuolemaGames currently target the casual gamer. They don't have the time to play 24/7 but what they do have is disposable income that will make up for not having the time to grind out games. If you really want to blame gaming companies for this then I would start with the ones that produce games for mobile devices as that is where we really saw the idea take off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian74
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12-20-2014, 02:53 AMGramulWell I'm certainly not going to be passive about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuolema
"oh well, there's nothing I can do about it. May as well be quiet and just go about my daily grinding. Ho humm." Is not the kind of guy Eisen Gramul is.
I don't hate the game, I hate the idea of a cash shop on top of a subscription rate. Im not unsubscribing for that. Unsubscribing would do less to tell them I'm unaccepting of the cash shop than it does for removing the complainers so you don't have to see them. -
12-20-2014, 03:02 AMKuolemaUnless you are willing to go to their headquarters and protest the cash shop...even then nothing will change. Just because we pay a subscription doesn't entitle us to everything. We play on their servers, they give free updates, and run free in game events. Would you prefer to pay a subscription and be charged for updates that brings in new content such as new primals and coil content?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramul
I'm not suggesting people not be vocal about it but everything that could have been said on both sides of the argument have been said on this forum. We have beaten this topic to death, lets put it out of it's misery and move on to something else. Start a facebook/twitter campaign against the cash shop for all I care. -
12-20-2014, 03:16 AMGramulI would rather my subscription rate be wisely budgeted so as future content doesn't apparently demand so much extra funds beyond it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuolema
These forums where made for feedback and the devs do listen. I've been here long enough to see that (though in recent months they've been a little flippant I admit).
Honestly, as far as business models go, I would good with a Guild Wars kind of system where you basically pay for mini-expansion packs but is otherwise free. -
12-20-2014, 03:23 AMKuolemaAnd that is where our opinions differ. Yes the forums are here for certain feedback such as glitches and such, but I have yet to see any dev/mod make any kind of statement regarding the cash shop and quite honestly I highly doubt they will. The best way is to either start a social media campaign or go to a live event and try to get your questions answered there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramul
We also have no real ideas on how profitable FFXIV is. Could it be raking in cash..maybe, could it just be treading water..maybe or could it be slightly losing money..maybe. We don't have these answers. Could the cash shop be just a money grab..possibly, could it be here to keep the game above water..maybe, or could it be here as a resort to make the game break even or slightly profitable..maybe. There are too many maybes with this cash shop and none of us have the answers. So my advice is to see what happens and not fly off the handle every time something minor gets added to the cash shop.
Again my opinion but the Guild Wars model is terrible to follow. They could put mini updates twice a month and charge for it plus the charge of brand new expansions that will cost you more in the long run. -
12-20-2014, 03:39 AMCutie_McSnuggles
Why do people seam to have the mind set that a subscription based game cannot thrive on the income of it's subscriptions alone?
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12-20-2014, 03:41 AMKuolemaWhy do people seem to think a subscription based game can thrive on it's subscriptions alone? See how easy that is. There aren't a lot of MMO's that have been able to last more than a year before coming free to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles
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12-20-2014, 03:50 AMAdrian74I don't know, honestly, but some people tend to think (Especially those who seem to associate, again and again gaming with money) that....Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles
Free = You'll see a lot of cash shop
Subscription Fee = You'll see a lot of cash shop too (Fee only covers the 'entry' to the game!)
So then what would be the point of a subscription fee? Seriously...
Subscription Fee is one of the best models because just by paying a certain quantity in the month developers ensure a regular outcome of money, much higher than the costs they have, and, of course, enough for developing new contents. Thus, it is not needed at all to pay for new content. All that should come with the subscription, that's what, we should be paying subscription for. The idea of "We pay subscription only to access, because that's what's is in ToS" is... Just wrong, my honest opinion, since opinions may differ, you know.
Free games need to abuse of their cash shops for paying costs of server and of course winning a lot of money. Subscription fee doesn't need that, why a cash shop in a subscription fee?.... (And please, don't confuse some elements with cash shop. Being able to change the appeareance of your character, the server, the name, and stuff like that is NORMAL to have in a mmorpg. But, I don't mean it to be normal just because others MMORPG have it or because people think it is normal, I speak of normal in the sense of common sense, because putting a paywall in those elements is a element for its auto-regulation, avoiding people to abuse of those features, not having people changing their characters name and appeareance every second, etc....).
But, even those elements of the game could and, wouldn't be bad if they'd be in the game with as some reward or difficult drop or something. In a subscription game, there shouldn't be a cash shop, if they consider subscription should be a bit more expensive because the economy inflation then go on, one euro more per subscription every year is surely a lot of money and avoids you to make the players that love P2P model to suffer with the menace of cash shops and their increase.
Because when cash shop comes, it will be expanded and expanded, and like the OP said, the problem is not only the cash shop itself, it is the attitude of the developers, their change in what they develop, how they have to carefully think now what to show us and what not, what to put in cash shop and what not, they are no longer thinking about maintaining subs so much as they are about thinking in cash shop.
Free = Cash Shop.
Subscription /= Cash shop. -
12-20-2014, 03:53 AMKIka93
Personally I don't see a problem with the cash shop. Everyone who is against it has bought something from it, don't lie, you know you have.
I bought several things with a smile on my face, they're all vanity, but I love them all the same because I like to play around. I like that we can now buy halloween gear outside of Halloween, instead of having to wait for the event to roll back through. That I am very pleased for. -
12-20-2014, 04:00 AMCutie_McSnugglesNope, not a single thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by KIka93
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12-20-2014, 04:00 AMGramul(messed up who I was quoting. I'll fix it later)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles
Because it can? Because we've seen it before? Proper budgeting, taking from their mobile income, better content planning, keeping your project in reasonable scope. All these things come to mind.
That's a remarkably presumptuous statement to make. The only extra I bought from them was the Special Edition upgrade at relaunch because I thought it was a one time deal. I'm not touching the cash shop so long as I have a subscription.Quote:
Everyone who is against it has bought something from it, don't lie, you know you have.
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12-20-2014, 04:01 AMcearka
"Can we monitize this?"
is a question any business should be asking. Its also been stated that cash shop sales go back into game dev and resources, and if their honest about this, then I'm all for it. The cash shop model is more or less here to stay, not just for FFXIV, but games in general. What works for a business model in 1999 no longer works in 2014, and market forces have to evolve to survive, or die. The reality is while sub fees are still more or less the same for mmos for the last 15 years, the resources to make and maintain these games are several times higher. That extra resource needs to come from somewhere. -
12-20-2014, 04:02 AMAdrian74If you count buying a fantasia and name change.... (I wouldn't count it). Unlike many persons I wouldn't feel good with myself if my actions would be the opposite to my words. I'm not playing in a P2W game, instead I came to experiment FFXIV: ARR because I swore to myself time ago that I'd never touch that hell again...Quote:
Originally Posted by KIka93
My principles are over my leisure. And that's what I most fear of this all. I love this game, for me it has been "The Perfect Game" this whole year. I have not bought any new game, I didn't even buy a PS4, why? I have a good PC and FFXIV... But I know myself very well, if FFXIV will become P2W, I'll leave, not without trying to make people and devs understand that it is a bad way first, of course, since, I'm not the typical person that abandons what loves so quick and in silence, I rather first try and fight for it, then when it is hopeless, and people supports it so much because I DUNNO then it is when I leave, when there's no solution anymore.
Solution, increase the sub. I don't know why developers fear this too much. It is comprehensible the sub should become higher at some point. I wouldn't mind if it would increase one euro per year, seriously. BUT NO CASH SHOP... Sub is something we all pay, we all remain the same to others inside the game. We can't pretend also a sub will remain the same quantity during years and years... It's funny, if they'd raise the sub one euro, I'd pay a total of 12 'extra' euros per year, while with cash shop I would pay 0... Yes, that's how much I love the subscription model.Quote:
Originally Posted by cearka
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12-20-2014, 04:17 AMStihllodeing
Everything in the world has options. I like options. They make me feel free. Freedom is the future.
There is nothing offensive or distasteful about the cash shop. So many examples of better rip offs and game breakers. This is too personal for some people. Kinda sad. -
12-20-2014, 04:21 AMKuolema
If you raise the sub price then everyone will be up in arms, but if you add a cash shop that most people could see coming a mile away then you annoy a few. SE isn't dumb enough to piss off everyone.
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12-20-2014, 04:25 AMKorilynn
An item to sell, that I would think will officially die off.
How many people actually have lots of alts? How many want to EB their main, let alone all their alts? -
12-20-2014, 06:10 AMStihllodeingSo true. And only "a few" couldn't be any more accurate. I don't understand why anyone would think their 100th thread about the cash shop is going to make a difference to Square Enix. Here's the "truth" of the way it is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuolema
How some want SE to address the cash shop:
"Oh I see! In light of recent developments, we've decided that vanity is indeed being gated by a paywall and we have went back on our word. To rectify this, we shall <insert the obvious bending of will to minority demands> and we are so SO very sorry."
Here's how SE obviously feels about the cash shop:
"Our official representative has already publically addressed the concerns. "No Pay to Win" is our stance and believe that statement is clearly defined by common sense."
"Not only have we not taken any items available for purchase out of the cash shop, we've added to the cash shop"
"We have not and do not have any future plans to address the forum community regarding this issue"
"We have straight up deleted (condensed) threads painting this issue in an unfavorable light"
If you believe it is wrong and decide to pay your sub anyway and come to the forums to complain, the only thing you accomplish at this point is painting the community out to be a bunch of self entitled spoiled gamers the entire gaming community complains about and/or exemplifying the "sheep gamers" you say people are who support the cash shop making a hypocrisy out of your own argument. I can't think of a better example of a "sheep gamer" than someone who hates the business practices' of a developer and then pays a monthly sub for their product. -
12-20-2014, 06:44 AMXystic
P2P MMOs these days provide MMO gamers with the choice to choose what features they want to invest in. Back in the hay day, we paid full price subscriptions regardless of how many features we used and didn't. Now, if you need the extra space you can tack on additional retainers fees to your subscription and if you don't, you don't have too.
If your big into vanity items, you can buy them from the cash shop and if your not big into vanity, you can just stick with your core subscription.
The only time we need to complain about a cash shop in P2P MMOs is when they start producing F2P cash shop items, items in which become completely necessary in order to progress the core subscription forward.
P2P Cash shops allow MMO gamers the choice to pick and choose what features they want to invest in on top of the core subscription. Its very much like building a PC now. You get the PC case and put in what you will use and what can be subpar or dropped out. If we wanted FF14 to include all things in to the core subscription then its very much like buying a prefabricated computer, expensive and loaded with a lot of components that maybe junky or not even needed.
Its a step at saving you money so you don't pay for what you don't use and when things do come up that you like, you can buy them with all that saved money. -
12-20-2014, 07:06 AMKIka93Ok I have to stop you at the P2W thing. This is not a P2W game. What are you going to win with a non-combat minion, an optional mount that has a -slower- walk speed than most other mounts, and also a ghost costume?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian74
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12-20-2014, 07:10 AMKuolemaAdrian is looking into the future as he has that power to see that in 6 months we can buy a fully completed zodiac weapon along BiS gear for all character classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by KIka93
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12-20-2014, 07:21 AMCutie_McSnugglesThis would only apply if every aspect of the game had an extra cost. Should I get a discount if I never do coil? How about if I only want to level one class? How come only people interested in vanity have to pay extra money?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
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12-20-2014, 07:24 AMKuolemaBecause its easier to piss off a minority of players (vanity) then to raise sub prices and piss off everyone. Think of the vanity crowd as the red headed step child of the family.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles
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12-20-2014, 07:32 AMTupsi
Btw make sure you don't watch or read up on the JP Fan Fest info - Remember, development has been stifled and all.
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12-20-2014, 10:10 AMJynxWhat does that have to do with anything? I think your reaching for insults at this point, I know you can do better than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
I will be excited to see what come from the Fan Fest and I will lament wondering what big announcment will possibly wind up in the cash shop. That doesn't mean I'm not looking forward to the content that wont be in it. Just a shame we have to guess what will and wont wind up there in the end.