We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hiruke

1) People complaining about all classes (etc)
NOW 5) People complaining about SMN
6) You can battle raise? Sure, at the cost of a huge chunk of mp,

---

Dure are u mad? lol
Its a vicius circle, mmo players always complain, always will be a top DPS, its IMPOSIBLE for all DPS to have the same output on every figth.... SMNs classes are never top DPS on ANY MMO i know... (playing SMn classes since L2)
U cant res in battle without running out of mana cuz u like to spam Ruin II? then u suck
My DPS + my pet its always on top.. even in PVP
SMN have more movility than BLM and more suvavility than all the melees together.....
SMN have eye for an Eye and Virus to reduce dmg taken and HAVE to KNOW and be skiller playing with his egi (cuz AI suck) have to know how gear up.
I also play as healer and have to say i preffer 100 times 1 noob SMN than a standard MNK dying cuz dont want to dodge and lose dps.. or never breaking a freaking seduce on Ramuh... etc etc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valoiz

U cant res in battle without running out of mana cuz u like to spam Ruin II? then u suck

---

More like ... never using Ruin II, using non-GCDs raw or after Bio only, lowering our mediocre DPS and still running out of MP. Yes we SMNs sure do suck, doing what we're supposed to!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valoiz

My DPS + my pet its always on top.. even in PVP

---

You might beat PUGs. You're not beating serious players with equal gear in 99% of the content in the game on SMN, if you do they suck and I wouldn't use it as an argument for balancing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryans

I'm confused as to why people are complaining about MP management in long fights. Melee have required paeon in a lot of content in order to maintain their maximum dps. Just because SMN is the only caster (out of two casters, so really that means nothing) that has a limited pool doesn't mean they need to be changed. If melee need a bard, so should casters.

---

Because melee dps now have Ninja to goad them and no longer need paeon, bards should be using foe's. And if a bard needs to ballad for one smn it is a bigger dps loss. In old content the enrage times were smaller making sustaining dps much easier, the longer the fight smn has no way to get mp back at a manageable rate without harming their own dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sparktacus

Because melee dps now have Ninja to goad them and no longer need paeon, bards should be using foe's. And if a bard needs to ballad for one smn it is a bigger dps loss. In old content the enrage times were smaller making sustaining dps much easier, the longer the fight smn has no way to get mp back at a manageable rate without harming their own dps.

---

Melee still need paeon with the tp increase to ninjas. It used to be viable as Ninja could last through even t8 with invigorate, but that isn't the case anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryans

Melee still need paeon with the tp increase to ninjas. It used to be viable as Ninja could last through even t8 with invigorate, but that isn't the case anymore.

---

It doesn't change the fact that playing Army's Paeon for 2 tanks and 3 other DoW is highly valuable and worth the 20% BRD damage decrease temporarily, while playing Ballad for one SMN who does less than everyone else, at the same damage loss for the BRD, is quite silly.

TP song is going to happen with or without SMN. SMN tied to the same resource pool (IE basically needs MP song to do well) is very bad balance wise, all things considered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleigh

It doesn't change the fact that playing Army's Paeon for 2 tanks and 3 other DoW is highly valuable and worth the 20% BRD damage decrease temporarily, while playing Ballad for one SMN who does less than everyone else, at the same damage loss for the BRD, is quite silly.

TP song is going to happen with or without SMN. SMN tied to the same resource pool (IE basically needs MP song to do well) is very bad balance wise, all things considered.

---

The problem is that the only other caster has a limitless mana pool. Ballad should be needed just as much as paeon depending on the composition of your party. But it isn't. The only reason to use ballad is if your healers are low on mp. All casters should last longer than melee before running dry, but only by a minute to two minutes. Either change Blm (perhaps a goad for mp if they don't want to change their unlimited mana) or add more casters that actually have to manage resources to make ballad useful.

Or just make real support classes. It has been a long time coming. We don't need the trinity anymore.

An interesting gimmick just came to mind in terms of how pets could be utilized. Right now they are melee, tank and range, however range is most accessible because they can interact with the summoenrs DoTs.

However what if the potency of a pet was based on the MP of the SMN.

Let's say Garuda was a summoned pet more potent the higher the SMN's MP pool was so from say 50-100% Garuda would be the best pet to use, when a SMN's pool dips under 50% Ifrit would be better to use but when MP becomes to low you could switch to Titan and "absorb the earth" to regain MP. This would at least offer some sort of interaction between swapping pets that could offer a dynamic concept to SMN while also offering a use for titan an otherwise lackluster pet in a party setting.

I'd also say maybe offer each pet an interaction ability with DoTs, Garuda increasing duration by a set amount, Ifrit increasing potency based on whether he's used below or above 50% mp left on SMN and Titan could just increase the spread to be limitless. They could all be under the same 1 min timer so you wouldn't be able to swap and use all 3, and Titan's accessibility would be in his ability to help take down a large group of adds easier.

--
Basically:
Garuda would be a pet you use at 50-100% MP (20% potency increase)
Ifrit would be a pet use from 0-50% MP (30% potency increase)
Titan would be used to help regen MP (Triples natural MP restoration)*maybe higher

Garuda's Contagion would remain with same effect
Ifrit's DoT buff would increase DoT dealt per tick with the potency increased based on whether ifrit was used above or below 50%
Titan's DoT buff would be Bane without the limitation of up to 3 targets.
*The three abilities would all share the same timer

With the DoTs the potency of them would basically be

Ifrit(under 50%)>Garuda>Ifrit(over 50%)>Titan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edeline

How about increasing MP recovery added to Aetherdam III trait. Current Aetherflow recovers 20% MP, that trait could give it a 20% extra, making it 40% (technically the same as Envigorate restoring 400/1000 (40%) TP and 500 for DRGs)

---

i dont play smn much, but i do play sch and also realize smn needs to be fixed, but this is kinda a bad idea since it will affect sch too. the balance on sch vs whm is too bad in some regards on each side, and doing something like this would help give sch a much better edge (and i hate saying that since i do love playing sch more than whm)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by warren-ragnarok

i dont play smn much, but i do play sch and also realize smn needs to be fixed, but this is kinda a bad idea since it will affect sch too. the balance on sch vs whm is too bad in some regards on each side, and doing something like this would help give sch a much better edge (and i hate saying that since i do love playing sch more than whm)

---

Yea, SCH is in an excellent spot, It may be hard to buff SMN without Buffing SCH's.... But there has to be a creative way around that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lavieh

Yea, SCH is in an excellent spot, It may be hard to buff SMN without Buffing SCH's.... But there has to be a creative way around that.

---

Changes like these are part of the reason why it's difficult to balance SMN properly because any changes to the abilities will affect both and SCHs really don't need any buffs.

Things that come to mind that may help the job directly:
-A PIE multiplier tied directly to the SMN soul crystal. This will give you higher MP for better Aetherflow / native MP regeneration. I imagine since "stat growth" is tied to the class / job, it would be just a matter of S-E tweaking the PIE value of this variable to be more suitable
-Adjust Tri-Disaster to be something in vein of Elemental Siphon of XI fame. Something that gives you MP back on command by having your pet out. Perhaps give it an HP drain effect that converts the HP into MP from your pet to add an element of "risk" to using the ability.

On a different tangent, here are some random thoughts in regards to the topic as a whole.

Adjusting Spellspeed to be beneficial to SMN
-Spellspeed is a dead stat for SMN, meaning itemization later down the line will eventually make all the SMNs go "...are you s---ing me?" with the over abundance of SpS in the current gear tier. This will happen on occasion as long as SpS remains a dead stat for SMN. Thus, the better recourse is to adjust how SpS may benefit SMN instead of having S-E look at every set of Caster gear and say "Well, we'll never be able to use SpS ever again because Summoner".

Adjusting for the Future Classes
-One of the complaints I've seen in the thread is the fact there's no point in BRD singing Ballad for the DPS, as Paeon would be much more beneficial. Playing a little's Devil's Advocate here, would that complaint change if there were more MP based classes that don't have infinite resources like a BLM? For example if they released Geomancer which is another ranged DPS using MP as their resource and then Red Mage as a melee DPS with en-spells that slowly burn their MP for melee damage. If your DPS was SMN GEO RDM BRD, this would make much more sense for Ballads. It's something with implications much further down the line, but perhaps worth a topic of discussion and consideration.

Disclaimer: I'm no Summoner, I just like theorycrafting / discussions about balancing~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Disclaimer: I'm no Summoner, I just like theorycrafting / discussions about balancing~

---

Your ideas are extremely valid.

They could change Tri-Disaster to almost anything and it would be of some sort of benefit. Right now it is splash for SMN.

Piety added to the soul crystal would become very static and eventually it would get out dated, a better option is adding Piety to the SMN books (Similar to what they did with Accuracy for healers).

Right now, as a lot of people have mentioned, our pets are unaffected by a lot of things - Spell speed being one of them. Without changing potency's or anything SE could just let our Pets take our Pots and self buffs into effect while also having them be effected by spell speed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

snip

---

Your ideas are very wise and would works :) thanks for the share.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleigh

You might beat PUGs. You're not beating serious players with equal gear in 99% of the content in the game on SMN, if you do they suck and I wouldn't use it as an argument for balancing.

---

Yesterday ppl said that bout Dragoon (got "buff") ... and before that MNK (buff), and before BLM (buff), and before SMN (already got pet buff), and before bout PLD bout have a hard time holding agro (falsh buff), and before bout WAR (defiance got buff), and bout BRD (got nerf).

So i ask for SMN buff.. then BLM buff... then SMn again
Ask for MNK buff... then ninja came.. then ask for DRG buff.... prolly tomorrow ask for no positioning on MNK tooo and goes on

PPL its never happy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valoiz

QQ

---

This is why its a "Circle". It will be there no matter what you do, the best way is to keep the circle moving by buffing and nerfing classes appropriately.

Every single comment you have made in this thread has been extremely ignorant and counter-productive to the discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lavieh

Piety added to the soul crystal would become very static and eventually it would get out dated, a better option is adding Piety to the SMN books (Similar to what they did with Accuracy for healers).

---

My personal issue with this is by providing a small increase on each ilvl upgrade would make the resource management aspect less and less important overall. Because the spells at level 50 all have the same static value, you're overall resource consumption will be the same regardless if you're i50 or i130. This changes once you add PIE to the weapon that scales with the ilvls and SMN longevity becomes better and better.

From a development standpoint, I feel the challenge in this respect is adding enough PIE to increase SMN longevity without throwing out the window resource management - and that's easier to attack when you're looking at static values. In this respect, all that means is say "all i50+ SMN books now have +50 PIE" or something to that effect (it's a bit of a lazy change, but it would work).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lavieh

Right now, as a lot of people have mentioned, our pets are unaffected by a lot of things - Spell speed being one of them. Without changing potency's or anything SE could just let our Pets take our Pots and self buffs into effect while also having them be effected by spell speed.

---

I like this idea for spell speed (as well as the other suggestions).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valoiz

Yesterday ppl said that bout Dragoon (got "buff") ... and before that MNK (buff), and before BLM (buff), and before SMN (already got pet buff), and before bout PLD bout have a hard time holding agro (falsh buff), and before bout WAR (defiance got buff), and bout BRD (got nerf).

So i ask for SMN buff.. then BLM buff... then SMn again
Ask for MNK buff... then ninja came.. then ask for DRG buff.... prolly tomorrow ask for no positioning on MNK tooo and goes on

PPL its never happy

---

Are you seriously calling what they did to pets a buff? Since how did this measly little change affect our dps in anyway. You might as well say lowering the cost of Bio 2 was enough that smn shouldn't have any mp issues.

just give me some upgrades that feel like upgrades, not crap

Do not remove ti-disaster! Swiftcast tri-disaster is great

I think the biggest issue is a SMN's DPS is lower than everyone elses, but they dont have anything to compensate that with.; a smart player would argue that it is lower because of the utility they bring to the party - that much is true.

However, Eye for an Eye? um, You already have two - SCH and WHM, and you still get a third with a BLM. The only thing Traited E4E does is lower the cooldown. Virus? Ok, but because of the Virus debuff, anything you'd NEED to virus, will already be done by the SCH - making SMN Virus useless (except adds.. but I can't think of an add in the game ATM we virus except the Storm in t13.. which is done by the SCH.) Battle Raise? Sure, I guess, if 26% of your MP sounds like it'll be worth it. (Seriously - Raise priority is SCH > WHM > SMN for a reason.) Some people also like to say they bring constant, 100% uptime damage because of DoTs.. okay, That's true, until you need to raise once, or until the fight goes until phase 2, or the fight goes at all really. Realistically the only time you should get a ballad is when the healers need one, which generally by the time you DO get a ballad, you've been dry for 2-3 minutes already, living Aetherflow to Aetherflow - and you STILL cut out both Shadowflare AND Ruin II, so you're not doing a full 90 DPS less than you would be, so now you're behind the bard, even if the bard was playing Paeon or Foes. Also, you cut out 2 festers per minute so you can still keep damage up inbetween Aetherflows, or you're doomed to run out of MP, so you're losing 780 potency per minute right there, using it on 2 shitty 195 potency Energy Drains. (I included trait damage increase, otherwise its 600 ppm and 300ppm, respectively.)

Be careful with what you wish for. With great buffs come great nerfs.

There's too much work for smn to play being in the low dps brackets, compared to blm which is EASY AS S*** to play.

It all goes back to Ruin. You only use it when you have nothing else to do, which is a little too often, and cost too much mana for what it does. And yet you have to use it to maintain DPS. Alot of SMN problems would be fixed by giving SMN Thunder back while reducing Ruin Mana cost.

Also, here's a bit of work on the MP problem that a lot of poeple are saying there ISNT.

Base DoT Rotation + Durations:
159/30s + 133/24s + 106/18s + 212/30s + 186/60s (miasma 2 + contagion)

So the BASE rotation, without counting Miasma 2, is 610 MP - which is, on my character without SCH piety bonus, 20.3% of my total mp. FOR ONE ROTATION OF DOTS.

Now since Aetherflow exists, lets put this into a rotation fitting in with the CD of Aetherflow, and counting Contagion.

(159 x 2) + (133 x 2) + (106 x 3) + (212 x 2) + 186. Bio 2 Twice per minute, 40 second duration with Contagion (or so). Miasma 2 Twice per minute with contagion, 39 second max duration with contagion. Bio I 3 times per minute, 33 seconds max + 2 more casts per minute. Shadow Flare Twice per minute, 30 second duration.

Total MP Per minute = 1512 MP. or, 50.4% of Max MP per minute, when Contagion is used.

When Contagion ISNT used, the rotation looks like this.

159 x 2 + 133 x 3 + 106 x 3 + 212 x 2 for 1459 MP, or 48.6% of total MP per minute without Contagion.

Technically, the DPS increase from Contagion that you see is you spend 7.5 second less per minute casting dots, and you get increased Raging Strikes dots. You also gain 3 ruins due to that 7.5 seconds less of dot casting, so lets factor THAT in now, onto the Contagion rotation.

1512 MP + (79x3) = 1749 MP. So you spend 237 more MP per rotation when Contagion is used, every time it is used. (since 3 less dots recast = 3 more ruins) 1749 = 58.3% of max MP per rotation.

I havent factored in Aetherflow MP generation yet, so I'll do that now.
Aetherflow = 20% Max MP per minute

Making Contagion Rotations have 38.3% of max MP per minute, non-contagion rotations having 28.6% max MP per rotation.

Again, remember that this isnt including total ruin casts per minute.

In the Contagion rotation, you spend 3 more GCD's casting Ruins over casting dots, that's already been factored in.
On the normal rotation, you spend 14 GCD's casting Ruins(Math Below), so on a Contagion rotation that's 17.

Ruin casts = (60s - time spent casting dots /2.5)

60s / 2.5 s = 24 gcds/minute

10 gcds on DoTs without contagion - 24 gcd's/minute = 14 gcd's casting ruin
MP cost of 14 ruins = 79 x 14 = 1106 MP/Minute or 1343 with contagion
1106 MP per minute is 36.8% of max MP / minute without contagion, on a non-contagion rotation you get 84.4% of max MP per minute, or 64.4% with Aetherflow.

Now to count 2% MP regen/3 seconds in combat + aetherflow for total MP drain per minute without contagion

1459 + 1106 = 2565 MP/Minute

Aetherflow on Miqote Sunseeker = 20% of 2998 = 599MP restored
+ 2% of 2998 = 59 mp / 3 seconds = 1199 MP from Natural Regen

= 599 + 1199 = 1798 MP / minute

2565 - 1798 = 867 MP per Minute or 28% of total MP per minute spent.

This doesnt even count Ruin 2, of which you get AT LEAST 4 per minute, sometimes more. which is more than twice the cost of a ruin 2, x4 or x5, depending. So yeah, dat MP loss. this also doesnt count multidotting, of which there is TONS in FCoB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odowla

2565 - 1798 = 867 MP per Minute or 28% of total MP per minute spent.

This doesnt even count Ruin 2, of which you get AT LEAST 4 per minute, sometimes more. which is more than twice the cost of a ruin 2, x4 or x5, depending. So yeah, dat MP loss. this also doesnt count multidotting, of which there is TONS in FCoB.

---

Thanks for the maths and your share Odowla :) as for the ruins II during turn 13, like you said it will vary a lot depending of RNG, during mega-flares it will be like 1-2 and during earthshockers 3 (if you are the target, of course)... those drain a lot of mps if you decide to not make any DPS sacrifices, ballad is then needed during divebombs (which not last long :x).

As main SMN since 2.0, I never had to encounter such frustrations during fights, especially turn 12 and 13, I just shouldn't ask myself at all if it is a wise idea to reapply the next shadow flare because of bad design or the RNG god wanted to strike.... Of course it should be there! Just like the ruin II during mandatory movements X.X /huge-disappointment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomnium

Thanks for the maths and your share Odowla :) as for the ruins II during turn 13, like you said it will vary a lot depending of RNG, during mega-flares it will be like 1-2 and during earthshockers 3 (if you are the target, of course)... those drain a lot of mps if you decide to not make any DPS sacrifices, ballad is then needed during divebombs (which not last long :x).

---

That Also doesnt count Ruin 2 Spam during Raging Strikes for Autoattacks. Add 5 more for that, etc.. SMN MP really is a problem, people really need to stop defending it.
For comparison to MNK/DRG, they get the 1200 TP per 60 seconds (600 tp per 30 seconds, x2) plus they get 40% invigorate (400/1000 = 40%), they really only deplete quickly because of things like Huton, Phlebotomize that drains their TP faster than it regens, as well as 2.5 second or less gcds and TP ticks coming once every 3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lavieh

This is why its a "Circle". It will be there no matter what you do, the best way is to keep the circle moving by buffing and nerfing classes appropriately.

Every single comment you have made in this thread has been extremely ignorant and counter-productive to the discussion.

---

Her point is fairly valid. With the "circle" model then someone is always going to be left high and dry in a certain patch. It is fairly unavoidable and by that nature broken in its own right. She is arguing for the bigger picture like I am essentially. For the case of casters though this circle is much smaller and in fact, binary, its either bringing a smn OR bringing a blm otherwise its not optimal for dps. I say this full well knowing the capabilities of each class, I have a dreadwyrm staff for my little blm (my alt) but my main blm hasn't had the luxury of one dropping yet... I've cleared t13 multiple times now.

With how little selection this game already has it's not impossible to ask for a more fair selection for dps. Bringing casters in line with melee would help with this, either that or make it so bard just isn't autoslotted, or hell make it so paeon isn't worth a ton more than foe or ballad. (having foe buff a bards dps AND ONLY the bards dps + the casters would go a long way in this imo.)

Difficulty is not a valid argument to balance, sorry it's not if that were the case then champions such as shaco in league would be good at all times, that isn't the case. Staying on the case of league I present Urgot (deep but horrible) and pre re-work Karma (lots of options, all bad options.) and characters such as ice climbers would be be the best in melee/brawl... also not the case. (though a good IC is terrifying) Balance is simply ensuring that the game has as much meaningful selection in party make up as it can be.

I can't really say much more without repating myself over and over so for those who don't read the thread entirely.

- difficulty of class is a hogwash argument, all jobs in this game are about on the same relative spectrum of difficulty anyway, some fights are more lenient than others on certain jobs, and this happens to every job.

- I agree smns have mp issues, I've even proposed what might fix it.

- I stand that jobs need to have specific identities and rather than buffing smns potency, a buff to utility should be in order.

- infinite mp on smn without dps sacrifice is something I'm fine with, mind you blm pays for their infinite mp pool with the nature of fire/ice modes. Fire is roughly 700 dps while ice is roughly 200 dps. Both casters have a slowish ramp up compared to their physical counterparts

- I play both smn and blm, I do really good dps on both too... I know both jobs, promise. (edit- after re reading this statement allow me to clarify. I mean good dps for both jobs, rather than saying I"m equal dps on both as it stands blm does in fact do more dps atm, no arguing that one. However, I think that blm SHOULD do more dps than smn, so this to me is no issue. Smns however need to be more useful than what they are.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xisin

a buff to utility should be in order.
and
Smns however need to be more useful than what they are.)

---

Yep, that's their problem, okish damage for a short period of time, with no other real reason to bring them - their utility just isnt as strong as it needs to be in order to be worth gimping the party's DPs to bring - and i'm NOT just talking about ballad, I'm talking you can bring a BLM for the same effect of a SMN, without mana problems AND more damage.

So if SMN is supposed to do less damage.. sure, let them do less damage, but make Eye 4 an Eye SUPER potent or something, make the utility traits they get SUPER Strong, so that bringing a SCH and a SMN is like "hey, we break this fight, gg wp" - much like a MNK does for magic damage.

Most summoners I know have quit the game, or switched to BLM or Ninja. Almost every end game progression grp on my server no longer wants or takes summoners.

That alone tells you all you need to know about the class. Its the least played, its one of the hardest to play with the least pay off atm.

Honestly Square is pretty bad at making good design choices and most the time when called on it they say we dont know how to play.

Im currently on turn 13 and every day me and my grp talk about how much better it would be if I was a monk or drg.

I dont post often, but Im honestly at a breaking point in the game. How much can you ignore a class?

if you want anything to change get the dragoons to complain about it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miotoss

Most summoners I know have quit the game, or switched to BLM or Ninja. Almost every end game progression grp on my server no longer wants or takes summoners.

That alone tells you all you need to know about the class. Its the least played, its one of the hardest to play with the least pay off atm.

Honestly Square is pretty bad at making good design choices and most the time when called on it they say we dont know how to play.

Im currently on turn 13 and every day me and my grp talk about how much better it would be if I was a monk or drg.

I dont post often, but Im honestly at a breaking point in the game. How much can you ignore a class?

---

how could they tell anybody they didn't know how to play? they admitted they sucked at playing ninja.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miotoss

snip

---

Whoa, no need to get so zealous. They can't just snap fingers and make buffs and nerfs happen. They need to be programmed, tested, tweaked, tested some more, until they feel like that a balance has been reached. A big movement to get SMN buffed didn't even occur until AFTER the DRG buff. So far SE has actually listened as far as class and job balancing goes. Furthermore, we're getting closer to Heavensward. We know new summons, and some readjustments to the current ones are planned. They're probably not too keen on making major adjustments to SMN when they're already planning some for the expansion.

Tl;Dr: being angry while offering nothing is pointless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lxChrisxl

how could they tell anybody they didn't know how to play? they admitted they sucked at playing ninja.

---

It's gone both ways in the past. They somehow didn't expect PLD to be able to survive BCOB bosses with their CDs, even though that should have been the first thing they tested. More recently they've said that NIN wound up doing more damage than they expected. In between those times and on the opposite end of the spectrum, though, they tried to say that WAR was doing okay, only to backpedal and buff it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odowla

..

---

You also count whole duration of bio2 and bio. You need reduce those last applications halves and from second miasma you need take of 12,5% mana cost + increase mana cost of ruin that you gonna do in the second round since you need cast only one bio2 etc.

Using miasma2 after opener is always dps loss even with contagion. If you think it cost 107 more mana than ruin and you will do 40 potency more than ruin. 107 mana is 40% worth of energy drain = it is worth of 60 potency.

You also do not need 4x+ ruin2 every minute(if you do not need move) if you time your festers during you apply bio. Every time you use ruin2 you lose 54 more mana that is 20% worth of energy drain and in theory you will lose 30 potency every time you do that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Corfish

Whoa, no need to get so zealous.

---

Miotoss wasn't angry at all, he's just sad and sharing his fcob experience, there is an huge difference between being zealous/angry and sad :p don't confuse yourself :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Corfish

Tl;Dr: being angry while offering nothing is pointless.

---

Well, no offence but you just did :/, also for obvious Lodestone reasons, it seems that you can't really share any cob experiences either and like I said some posts ago :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomnium

This whole discuss is aiming for an endgame point of view, midcore and raider scenes, it have nothing to do with casual contents.
MP management on casual contents isn't a problem at all as SMN.

---

That being said Corfish, I wish you to never meet this terrible feeling as SMN that Miotoss and myself share today, having the deep feeling that playing another job would be way more useful for our raid teams :(.

Back on the thread, like Viridiana and lxChrisxl said, I think we can obviously assume that their testing team is either too small or doesn't suit players play-styles diversity :/.
Like I said a PTS would be very welcome for future contents.

Meanwhile this thread has gone very far, many SMNs shares and feedbacks, Odowla even gave some nice Maths and ideas to us, 14 164 lectures during the last 5 days for 16 pages of constructive arguments.
And still no answer from a Community Rep. You guys were actually very quick to answer at posts like :
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...n-we-have-this
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...hin-needs-love.
Come on guys :p don't be shy, at least give us some hopes for future as a SMN before some of us just consider switching to another job...

The issue with the Summoner is SE wants them to be utility based without giving them any utilities to use or giving them a massive amount of dps to compensate for their lack of utility. Bard because of the group utility they have will always have a spot in a Raid Summoner not so. All the utility that the Summoner brings virus, e4e, heavy and battle rez a Scholar brings as well and overshadows the Summoner. Eye for an Eye and Virus can also be cross classed so the Summoner's utility becomes pointless. Since Summoner and Scholar share the same class it's impossible to move the Summoner into more of a utility role without being dominated and stripped naked by the Scholar. To make the Summoner into a utility Dps role would require a complete overhaul of the job or make a Advanced Summoner Job. Since no one wants to wait till 3.0 to see what becomes of the Summoner a band aide would be to buff the Summoner's Dps so statics can justify bringing them into FCOB.

Bump for dev response. Maybe we'll get a response in the Live Letter? Either way, please do something devs. Do we really have to sit here keep debating and bringing up stuff everyday like this to get a response? o.O

Im not mad at all, as stated im sad, and mad at myself for not leveling something else sooner to take over the class that I love. My group as of right now is at a disadvantage because Im a summoner. Summoners are quickly becoming the puppet master of 14. We have zero place in raids as it stands right now.

We dont have the support that warrents the dps. This class is hard to play with no benefit. Yea im not far behind other dps 30-40 points from the pack, but I have to play perfectly to obtain that while watching others make mistakes and blow me out of the water.

battle rez you say? With what mana? The DPS checks are so on 13 that summoner cant afford to rez.

What are the devs supposed to respond to here? You can't spam ruin II over and over and over and......and not expect to run out of mp. I've never had a mp issue. If I feel I'm even getting remotely "low" a simple Energy Drain + Aetherflow and I'm back up to 90% or more. Ruin II is best used to take off that last 3-4% of mob hp. Otherwise, you should use Ruin I.

This thread has no validating points because THE ONLY way to burn mp is by spamming Ruin II. The class is not supposed to be played that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kuikui

What are the devs supposed to respond to here? You can't spam ruin II over and over and over and......and not expect to run out of mp. I've never had a mp issue. If I feel I'm even getting remotely "low" a simple Energy Drain + Aetherflow and I'm back up to 90% or more. Ruin II is best used to take off that last 3-4% of mob hp. Otherwise, you should use Ruin I.

This thread has no validating points because THE ONLY way to burn mp is by spamming Ruin II. The class is not supposed to be played that way.

---

Did a real quick check of your achievements because it's pretty obvious with that kind of thought process you aren't experienced. Lo and behold, you haven't done T5, much less T10+ where the people who know what they're talking about are complaining, and you think you can comment on current SMN MP issues.

As has been said many times in this thread ... Ruin II spam is not the issue. Being dumb is not the issue. SMN will run out of MP in 4 minutes if you're playing conservative, more if you go extra conservative and hurt your DPS even further. Final coil fights are up to 10 minutes long without breaks (slight breaks here or there in 12 and 13, but you'll be dry due to other reasons there), with multi-DoTing (which drains your MP even further than normal, significantly in fact). SMN simply can't keep up with BLM or the other DPS, who will actually have resources available to them and are quite able to do their higher-than-SMN-anyway DPS - SMN at this time will be just standing still skipping Ruins just to survive, or begging BRD for MP song which is basically a raid DPS loss.

There's a problem with SMN MP. Don't tell us otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kuikui

I've never had a mp issue. If I feel I'm even getting remotely "low" a simple Energy Drain + Aetherflow and I'm back up to 90% or more. Ruin II is best used to take off that last 3-4% of mob hp. Otherwise, you should use Ruin I.

---

Energy drain restores what, 266 mp, aetherflow restores 596mp so thats total of 862 mp. If you are after those at 90%, you have total of 957 mp. Hows that even possible. I have more MP on my monk.

But seriously, Aetherflow is not up always, or then you are doing something wrong. Stacks should be used for festers (banes when multiple targets). If you use Energy drain, you lose 150 potency every time to restore 266mp which is enough for 2 dots/3 ruin's.
Ruin2 is best used in between bio/festers and while moving. Finishing last couple % doesnt matter if its dotted up, you can either just move on or hardcast ruin if it stays alive long enough.


MP problems werent that relevant before when fights had breaks/were short/didnt have multiple targets to dot so I can understand if you havent entered Final coils.
T10 its pretty much training dummy apart from times when u get targeted by Wild Charge and if you do Meteor during adds and all that mp saved from those is used when 4 targets are up, sure you can Bane so you only have to dot up 2 targets.
T11 same thing, long fight, 0 breaks. You get the point.

Anyway if you are saying u dont run out of MP, you are doing something wrong. I can do around 3.5mins on dummy before running out of mp and hving to wait for mp tick/aetherflow to come back.