Garuda 1.0

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Originally Posted by Velthice

You're exactly right. If 1.0 wasn't such a miserable failure ARR would indeed not exist. Makes you think, doesn't it?

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Makes you think what the original had been if it had been made in a competent engine, wasn't as rushed and if they had given them enough time to polish it like ARR was, since ARR's original planned release date was January 2013, yes.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

You're exactly right. If 1.0 wasn't such a miserable failure ARR would indeed not exist. Makes you think, doesn't it?

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It does - ARR got lucky that WoW had no updates for an extremely long time and it had 1.x to build off of, because the 2.0 exclusive content would have cause that, as well to be a massive failure as the only thing 2.0 offered was the main storyline (and a handful of exclusive dungeons to arr) and binding coil of bahamut. This is ignoring the already existing open world dungeons being retooled into instanced dungeons.

So as much as you want to try to say this, ARR only survived because of 1.x (which was actually going to become 2.0 if they didn't downgrade everything to mimick WoW.) Heck ARR woulda launched with less content than even the most mass produced Korean grinder lol, so Roris isn't incorrect, 1.x was the main saving grace for ARR as it provided more than enough assets unreleased and released to offer a great launch.

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Originally Posted by Roris

Makes you think what the original had been if it had been made in a competent engine, wasn't as rushed and if they had given them enough time to polish it like ARR was, since ARR's original planned release date was January 2013, yes.

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Thank goodness that didn't happen! Can you imagine how dull it would be if we had to wait until 2015 for ARR?

Keep in mind that 1.0 was designed for technology that the original developers thought would be released, but was never made. Even high-end PCs at the time had issues running the game because of it.

The game looked beautiful but, mechanically, it was agonizingly awful. It made me want to punch puppies and kittens.

Where is the portal to the bizarro world where ET for the Atari 2600 was considered a smashing success. I need to know so I can close it, tia.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

Thank goodness that didn't happen! Can you imagine how dull it would be if we had to wait until 2015 for ARR?

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But then ARR wouldn't even had existed like you said. At best you would have needed to wait until mid or late 2011 if they had given them enough time to polish it, but you know, typical bad SE decisions and Cataclysm.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

It does - ARR got lucky that WoW had no updates for an extremely long time and it had 1.x to build off of, because the 2.0 exclusive content would have cause that, as well to be a massive failure as the only thing 2.0 offered was the main storyline (and a handful of exclusive dungeons to arr) and binding coil of bahamut. This is ignoring the already existing open world dungeons being retooled into instanced dungeons.

So as much as you want to try to say this, ARR only survived because of 1.x (which was actually going to become 2.0 if they didn't downgrade everything to mimick WoW.) Heck ARR woulda launched with less content than even the most mass produced Korean grinder lol, so Roris isn't incorrect, 1.x was the main saving grace for ARR as it provided more than enough assets unreleased and released to offer a great launch.

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I'm sorry everyone thought the game you liked was terrible and that it's never ever coming back. Sometimes them's the breaks.

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Originally Posted by Roris

But then ARR wouldn't even had existed like you said. At best you would have needed to wait until mid or late 2011 if they had given them enough time to polish it, but you know, typical bad SE decisions and Cataclysm.

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The joke
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Your head

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Originally Posted by Velthice

The joke
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Your head

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I'm sorry your poorly written strawmans lack in humor. Them's the breaks.

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Originally Posted by Roris

I'm sorry your poorly written strawmans lack in humor. Them's the breaks.

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I wasn't even making an argument, except for maybe 1.0 was a bad game, and that's not something that needs to be argued. It's just a fact.

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Originally Posted by Roris

But then ARR wouldn't even had existed like you said. At best you would have needed to wait until mid or late 2011 if they had given them enough time to polish it, but you know, typical bad SE decisions and Cataclysm.

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They started on FFXIV in 2005 they had 5 years to work on it and still with that time didn't turn out the way they wanted.

You can sit there all day and say, "what if? what if?" But reality is what it is. 1.0 is dead and burried, like it or not.
http://i.imgur.com/ZZ7Nezo.jpg

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Originally Posted by Velthice

You can sit there all day and say, "what if? what if?" But reality is what it is. 1.0 is dead and burried, like it or not.
http://i.imgur.com/ZZ7Nezo.jpg

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Well it's a good thing the team obviously didn't let go because a good 70-80% of 1.0s work still lives and will keep living on in ARR. Even in expansions due to Ishgard, wouldn't be surprised if they just finished up what they had started and had already completed of the city and even storylines since even before 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

Hi, I played 1.0. It was garbage. Have a nice day!

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Hi, I played 1.0 and I enjoyed it. Have a nice day!

...did I do it right?

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Originally Posted by Roris

Well it's a good thing the team obviously didn't let go because a good 70-80% of 1.0s work still lives and will keep living on in ARR. Even in expansions due to Ishgard, wouldn't be surprised if they just finished up what they had started and had already completed of the city and even storylines since even before 1.0.

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If they want to incorporate the lore, sure fine. Great even. Going up against Nael was one fo my favorite parts of ARR. Now if they said, "Hey, welcome to Heavensward! Here are your levequests, that's it! That's all you get. Also don't play anything but black mage." then we'd have some issues.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Hi, I played 1.0 and I enjoyed it. Have a nice day!

...did I do it right?

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Could have used a better adjective. Consider incorporating "the bees knees" next time.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

They started on FFXIV in 2005 they had 5 years to work on it and still with that time didn't turn out the way they wanted.

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2007, as WotG in XI suffered heavily from it. They didn't have the time because it got pushed out before completion or even evaluation to see if they need to make any core changes. XI was developed in about the same amount of time and still needed a fresh coat of paint before the NA release but it was their first MMO.

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Originally Posted by Riardon

All I see from the video is an outdated old fashioned UI which looks horrible and a damn super slow motion combat.

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Eh, there are a few UI components that I really wish they'd re-introduce. Seriously, SE, why can't I have numbers counting down for my CDs? >_<

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Originally Posted by Roris

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Why are you naming the ARR team? Even if it was exactly the same team (with Tanaka) it proves nothing, 1.0 failed, ARR salvaged whatever good was left and created a new game, that's all there is to it.

Whatever 1.x could have been doesn't matter now, the game is dead and considered a failure.

Let that game rest, enjoy those things that carried over to ARR.

1.0 sucked. Leave it be. ARR is what we have now and it is better. It takes a lot to come out and tell the public that you are sorry that your game sucks... Hence why it is gone..Stop kidding yourselves.

Ah yes, 1.0 Tanaka:

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Originally Posted by Hiromichi Tanaka

"I wanted to respect the wishes of the team as much as possible when they wanted to make something different with FFXIV, so I tried my best not to meddle too much with development In the end they weren't able to realize what they were aiming for, which is a shame, but I wish them the best of luck with the reboot.".

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Source

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Ah yes, 1.0 Tanaka:



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I'm surprised it took that long to post that.

http://i.imgur.com/gm5JNeO.gif

That's something he said to save face, but he was held responsible for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

but he was held responsible for a reason.

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What reason was that?

Chances are that the higher ups at SE sacked him in that position because it's easier than blaming themselves for pushing it out early.

Five years, that's not what I'd call early.

How come it took Yoshida so much less to improve 1.0 when he took lead?

Many 1.0 players assume the higher ups used Tanaka as scapegoat, but I'm thinking it was more of Tanaka trying to pass the blame on the team.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Five years, that's not what I'd call early.

How come it took Yoshida so much less to improve 1.0 when he took lead?

Many 1.0 players assume the higher ups used Tanaka as scapegoat, but I'm thinking it was more of Tanaka trying to pass the blame on the team.

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Because exactly of those 5 years. Much of the work was already done and was completed to a certain extent, Yoshida just gave the go to salvage and finish as much of it as they could hence the faster time, everything was already there. Even late 1.X stuff like Hamlet was planned since the very early 1.0 days, and arguably it showed, companies too either Grand or Free if not both were also planned under Tanaka's direction.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Why are you naming the ARR team? Even if it was exactly the same team (with Tanaka) it proves nothing, 1.0 failed, ARR salvaged whatever good was left and created a new game, that's all there is to it.

Whatever 1.x could have been doesn't matter now, the game is dead and considered a failure.

Let that game rest, enjoy those things that carried over to ARR.

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Because it it exactly the same team, I keep bringing it up because some people make it seem like the game is radically different when it really isn't, because much of its core base is still there. Sure 1.0 was a failure for a lot of reasons even if 1.23 did salvage it up and ARR did it even more, but the core ARR base is exactly the same as 1.0 except under a different direction. Some people should at least be aware of that instead of dismissing 1.0 in its entirety, since much of that entirety is still present to this day.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

What reason was that?

Chances are that the higher ups at SE sacked him in that position because it's easier than blaming themselves for pushing it out early.

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Taking as long with company resources? Not properly directing a team and not keeping them under control while ensuring the stuff they come up with is cohesive to the game itself? The sheer fact that the buck stopped with Tanaka because he was in charge?

If Yoshida were to mismanage XIV in such a way that it fails the way 1.0 did, you can bet that he'd get the exact same treatment from SE. The buck stops with him because he's in charge of ARR just like Tanaka was in charge of 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Roris

Because exactly of those 5 years. Much of the work was already done and was completed to a certain extent, Yoshida just gave the go to salvage and finish as much of it as they could hence the faster time, everything was already there. Even late 1.X stuff like Hamlet was planned since the very early 1.0 days, and arguably it showed, companies too either Grand or Free if not both were also planned under Tanaka's direction.

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It would be incredibly unwise to throw out everything and start anew. Using existing assets ideas was the smart thing to do to keep the costs of salvaging down.

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Because it it exactly the same team, I keep bringing it up because some people make it seem like the game is radically different when it really isn't, because much of its core base is still there. Sure 1.0 was a failure for a lot of reasons even if 1.23 did salvage it up and ARR did it even more, but the core ARR base is exactly the same as 1.0 except under a different direction. Some people should at least be aware of that instead of dismissing 1.0 in its entirety, since much of that entirety is still present to this day.

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Sure, Square isn't going to fire the entire team and hire new people. That would be cost prohibitive and they would have lost a lot of good people with solid game design and development skills. But the people they did replace were tasked with directing those people how and where to apply those skills. The people leading are incredibly different, and that's important. One good leader is all a team needs to transform itself into a completely new dynamic.

The issue here is that nostalgia and the garage band syndrome are kicking in. The former is easy, and I think someone needs to create a Wall of No for ARR that we can copy-pasta in when someone starts with claiming 1.0 is better than 2.0 (hint: it wasn't, subscription numbers prove that).

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It does - ARR got lucky that WoW had no updates for an extremely long time and it had 1.x to build off of, because the 2.0 exclusive content would have cause that, as well to be a massive failure as the only thing 2.0 offered was the main storyline (and a handful of exclusive dungeons to arr) and binding coil of bahamut. This is ignoring the already existing open world dungeons being retooled into instanced dungeons.

So as much as you want to try to say this, ARR only survived because of 1.x (which was actually going to become 2.0 if they didn't downgrade everything to mimick WoW.) Heck ARR woulda launched with less content than even the most mass produced Korean grinder lol, so Roris isn't incorrect, 1.x was the main saving grace for ARR as it provided more than enough assets unreleased and released to offer a great launch.

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How on earth is copying what's proven to work and then refining it "downgrading it"? Sure you don't like WoW, fine, but it's hard to argue with the success it has had, and LoTRO proved that a well done quest hub MMO can succeed in a post WoW era. Also, there's more to ARR's success than the length of time between the release of 5.4 and 6.0. For ARR to succeed, WoW does not have to fail.

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Originally Posted by Delily

It would be incredibly unwise to throw out everything and start anew. Using existing assets ideas was the smart thing to do to keep the costs of salvaging down. Sure, Square isn't going to fire the entire team and hire new people. That would be cost prohibitive and they would have lost a lot of good people with solid game design and development skills. But the people they did replace were tasked with directing those people how and where to apply those skills. The people leading are incredibly different, and that's important. One good leader is all a team needs to transform itself into a completely new dynamic.

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Oh for sure, the new direction is certainly different from 1.0 and most FF games, but it's not really that new in itself especially in the MMO market, because at its core it's just your average post WoW themepark with chocobos and moogles at the end of the day. The new direction is all about saving costs as much as they can so it also makes even more sense to keep as much of the old team as they did, plus they already had experience with the assets and code and had a lot of concepts and ideas already preplanned and in advanced stages of implementation.

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Originally Posted by Delily

(hint: it wasn't, subscription numbers prove that).

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Well considering 1.0 never really had a sub in the first place until late December 2011, for sure. Even then 1.X did have its fair share of subscribers, enough to fund ARR's development and grant enough people Legacy status. Also that 2.5 million adventurers number that keeps being thrown around for ARR? Those are simply registered accounts, not subscribers. They also don't make a distinction whether they're all ARR accounts or ARR accounts mixed with past 1.0 accounts, because 1.0 did have its fair share of accounts created since its beta. Unless they've recently updated their actual subscriber figures, the last time they straight up mentioned actual subscribers was a bit after ARR's launch at around 500k, but sure, even then that would still be more than the subs 1.0 had by the end.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Tanaka was in charge of 1.0.

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Game development is rarely that simple let's just say that.

None of us know the exact reasons that FFXIV 1.0 was the way it came out, could it have been all on Tanaka? Sure it damn well could have. But there is just as high a chance that Tanaka had the blame shoved on him from above and little is even his doing. The "5 years dev time" could mean anything, it could mean that they worked on XIV 24/7 for 5 years or his team could have been split up for 5 years working on multiple projects within Square Enix, in and out of FFXI, and any other number of projects SE was working on at the time.

Remember this is a "5 years" in where the company was working on a massive number of projects at once many of wich have yet to even see release dates until recently. During this time Square was working on.

FFXIV 1.0
FFXI expansions and content updates
FFXIII (And possibly XIII-2-3)
FFXV (Known as XIII Versus at the time)
FF Type 0

Likely the Crystal tools engine was forced upon him and his team and that layed the groundwork for a poor development scenario. It wasn't built for MMO's and it showed when anything that the development team tried to do before or after Yoshida Stepped in seemingly broke the game and was scrapped. Yoshida was on record multiple times saying "Sorry we can't do that with the current game structure"

Tanaka has no control over this kind of thing, he may have begged and pleaded with the bean counters that he needed a more powerfull platform and servers to work with and may have been denied.

While I say all this it's also possible Tanaka came into work everyday and threw darts at a board to decide wether things like "Fatigue" was a good idea. Laying the blame on him alone is just a bit silly to me, I'd rather put a bit of faith into the guy who previously brought us nothing but blockbusters.

So quoting "5 years, 5 years" is a useless statement as anyone who knows anything about the game world knows that it's not always 100% focus. Look at things like Duke Nukem Forever or more recently The Last Guardian. Games that have been in development hell for years if not stretching into decades. The ammount of time from start to finish means nothing.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

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Which is why I have always blamed the Company as a whole. I observe everything in those 5 years, not just the Team & it's Development Cycle.

PR for XIV 1.0 was a total mess and misleading (hype). This would mainly focus on Tanaka (Producer, face of the game, past history of success & accomplishments) the perfect model to use, Legal/PR/Community teams as well as Upper Management.

2 examples:
- "We learned so much from XI as a whole and the limitations it had." (XIV brought us limitations, limit of characters on screen being one of biggest)
- E3 2009: "The game will be released in 2010, with a 3 month beta prior to release"(roadmap was in place, Cataclysm wasn't leaked or rumored.)

The other issues of the 5 year period, you somewhat touched on Jynx. The foundation of the game. It's core was a mess and filled with bugs. Toss content aside.

The design perspective over these 5 years on core elements.
- Fatigue system
- UI & server structure issues (coding)
- Class decisions (Exp: GLA shield stance mechanic)
- Crafting system and it's absurd recipes. (Consumable ammo, tied in with Class Decision, before the recipes were changed. 3 crafting classes required to make it entirely, with multiple steps within each.)
- Market Ward system
- 1K polygons and 150 lines of shader code into a flowerpot.

You combine everything together within the project, it was a mess. Add in everything else going on at SE at the time, chaos. Add in the decision to go gold on it's current build with so much feedback against it's current build with a patch it later attitude, a calamity.

Details, inner workings of SE, who did what. Who cares, the Company failed.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Five years, that's not what I'd call early.

How come it took Yoshida so much less to improve 1.0 when he took lead?

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This is why I know you just attack people for the sake of it. You seriously asked this question? Like seriously?

I can take Super Mario World and make a new game out of it in 2 days. Why? Because the assets are already created. You also seem to forget that Yoshida stated prior to 1.20 everything added including fixes were done when Tanaka was lead but they had no time to implement it due to XIV being released before it was ready.

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Many 1.0 players assume the higher ups used Tanaka as scapegoat

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You must not have ever had a job..have you? If you do currently have a job would you care to test a theory? The theory is, you can do whatever you want and your boss has no say so or control on you. They also can't tell you what to do.

If you say: "I'd get fired."

Congrats, you now understand why most people (know) that Tanaka wasn't 100% to blame.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

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The blame goes on both ends. SE may of rushed the project to compete with other MMO's coming out, but it was the FFXIV team who approved of graphics > everything, which was admitted was the focus of the team. They approved of Fatigue, RNG experience/class points, using an offline gaming engine for online, 48 hour wait time for 8 guildleves, letting parley be an alternative method to progressing the game, overly complex recipes for the smallest items, and so on.

FFXIV 1.0 was not simply a rushed product. It was a game which heavily centered on bad decisions left and right. People would of tolerated server structure and rushed development more if the game was built on a strong structure and good ideas. The thing is, it wasn't. Never before had I played an MMO where the developers were trying to keep you out of the game as much as possible.

FFXIV 1.0 was such a failure on so many levels. You can point the finger at SE, they do deserve it, but Tanaka deserves just as much the blame and even if given more time, the game would of been plagued with bad ideas and poor game play. I don't believe any amount of time would of made the game work on that engine.

Also, who remembers this? This is as old as it gets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6oiev4WTuc

Was during 1.xx alpha and they used an ATB gauge style system before it was scrapped for the stamina bar system.

The only part I'd like to see return is the lighting and reflections. They are quite nice in that old engine.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

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I thought you were quoting me to reply to post, which I will quote again

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Originally Posted by Alukah

I don't need to know you, everyone reads your posts, which are overly negative when it comes to ARR but extremely defensive when someone criticizes XI or 1.0.

Unless you're meaning to tell me you don't play ARR, to which I must wonder... Why?

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If you want more direct questions:

If you dislike ARR so much that the only thing you do in ARR forums is bash it (while comparing it to 1.0 / XI) why do you play? If you don't play, why are you bashing it?

And before you label it as a personal attack, I'm genuinely curious here, I want to understand your PoV.

Now to your most recent post....

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

This is why I know you just attack people for the sake of it. You seriously asked this question? Like seriously?

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Are you accusing me of attacking Tanaka "for the sake of it"? I'm just saying I don't believe him.

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I can take Super Mario World and make a new game out of it in 2 days. Why? Because the assets are already created. You also seem to forget that Yoshida stated prior to 1.20 everything added including fixes were done when Tanaka was lead but they had no time to implement it due to XIV being released before it was ready.

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So when Tanaka was there they had no time to implement fixes, when Yoshi came they suddenly had time to implement fixes. Okay.

Sounds more like the old "leader" had a different set of priorities than the "new" leader.

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You must not have ever had a job..have you? If you do currently have a job would you care to test a theory? The theory is, you can do whatever you want and your boss has no say so or control on you. They also can't tell you what to do.

If you say: "I'd get fired."

Congrats, you now understand why most people (know) that Tanaka wasn't 100% to blame.

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Tanaka might not have 100% of the blame, but you 1.0 players talk as if he had absolutely no fault, just based on some "save face" words he said after he was removed from the team, neither you or I know how much control he had over that team, but only one of us is taking an extreme stance without being 100% certain of how much involvement he had in 1.0's failure.

All I'm saying is that we can't ascertain what Tanaka did or didn't do for the game and what was really his say so.

By the sounds of it he checked out pretty early and let the other team members do whatever they wanted, chances are he pitched his idea it got rejected so he just let the newer team members take the reigns with minor input. Like I said though we have no idea what went on during the development process, let alone how much work Tanaka was even allowed to put into the game.

I'd have to side with Velhart and others who echod the sentiment that it's really just SE's fault entirely for letting 1.0 fail, they failed to listen to players during Alpha and Beta had more than enough chances to make massive changes before they pushed it out the door to a slaughtering by the media. Yoshida is as much a figurehead for the games development as Tanaka was, there is still a good chance that Yoshida doesn't really have as much control as people make him out to have.

Hell is anything it would be pretty easy to assume that the brass is keeping a even tighter reign on the game. Things like Cash shop really ring that as a possibillity and how most changes are as safe as you can play it.