Ninja damage insane over monk

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Originally Posted by Samano

MNK's and NIN's DPS is about even, the only disadvantage MNK has is when there's a period where MNK can't attack and they lose GL stacks. The DPS difference is no more than 10 DPS. And remember, the 500+ DPS NIN dummy damage is with WAR doing slashing debuff the whole time. If MNK gets a DK bitch to go with them, pretty sure the DPS is gonna come out even.

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MNK with DK bitch > NIN with slashing debuff bitch (WAR or NIN).

It won't come out even. NIN will be at the lower ends of 500 while MNK will go the higher end.

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Originally Posted by Samano

MNK's and NIN's DPS is about even, the only disadvantage MNK has is when there's a period where MNK can't attack and they lose GL stacks. The DPS difference is no more than 10 DPS. And remember, the 500+ DPS NIN dummy damage is with WAR doing slashing debuff the whole time. If MNK gets a DK bitch to go with them, pretty sure the DPS is gonna come out even.

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o_O Nin can do 490-500 while applying its own slashing debuff.

Monk can do like 500-520 though applying its own dragon kick.

But this be dummy dps. Monk probably always gonna be stronger in dummy type fights.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

o_O Nin can do 490-500 while applying its own slashing debuff.

Monk can do like 500-520 though applying its own dragon kick.

But this be dummy dps. Monk probably always gonna be stronger in dummy type fights.

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You do know that NIN can reach 520 sustained on a dummy while applying its own slashing debuff?

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

You do know that NIN can reach 520 sustained on a dummy while applying its own slashing debuff?

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Without party + food and pot buffs in only 110 gear/weapon? News to me actually lol. Buuut I only just started messing with skill speed so I don't doubt it. My main point was that Ninja can reach 500 just like monk outside a party on a dummy without having to be babysat by a warrior/other monk. I'm not even sure how much we do while being babysat since I gotta rely on other people to parse.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Without party + food and pot buffs in only 110 gear/weapon? News to me actually lol. Buuut I only just started messing with skill speed so I don't doubt it. My main point was that Ninja can reach 500 just like monk outside a party on a dummy without having to be babysat by a warrior/other monk. I'm not even sure how much we do while being babysat since I gotta rely on other people to parse.

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I think is was with Party buff and Food, but I'm not overly convinced that those contribute to a 30 DPS increase. And looking for 500+ dummy parses by Monks without DK bitches I couldn't find any numbers with solid proof (aka a video showing hoh said numbers came about). The best one I could finde was one in the 490-500 range and that is also with Party buff and Food.

While i would not mind more skill speed at all would it not mean burn up tp faster?
For that reason alone i will go same route as i am doing for Bard, Crit/Det on Novus
When raiton crit it is delicious

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

I think is was with Party buff and Food, but I'm not overly convinced that those contribute to a 30 DPS increase. And looking for 500+ dummy parses by Monks without DK bitches I couldn't find any numbers with solid proof (aka a video showing hoh said numbers came about). The best one I could finde was one in the 490-500 range and that is also with Party buff and Food.

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I wish I could get the parses people have said for my monk to show you but umm as for the ninja.. If it's a video you're talking about it was HA weapon + Party + Food.

Also got the exact speed numbers for 2.00s GCD, 486 no food, 463 using Speed food (Canard,Eft steak,Sauteed Coeurl plz use HQ food for your sanity). I never wanna fiddle with testing speed numbers again ever.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

Part of the issue with Monks and Dragoons I've seen in the open world is they rarely bother to use their stuns to set up positional attacks..

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As a solo monk I literally use the stun a long with other abilities as soon as they're available. When I do stun, I go for positions, but monks do positions in almost every single move so a 4 second stun every 40 seconds isn't gonna help me much.

Personally I enjoy monk solo because I can run around the mob and laugh when I get the position bonus.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

I wish I could get the parses people have said for my monk to show you but umm as for the ninja.. If it's a video you're talking about it was HA weapon + Party + Food.

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The Monk video I was referring to was also with HA weapon, Party and Food. To be honest, I don't think that Monks sustain 500+ DPS with iLvl 110 weapon, you either need HA or Nexus for this (or even higher iLvl weapons as are available now)

What's the point of comparing NIN's DPS to MNK's like people here are trying? If NIN's DPS is slightly behind, even or better means very little, when the real problem is Trick Attack...

NIN having as much DPS as MNK is no problem, cause why can't they have that? If DRG falls behind, then just buff them (which they are doing)... The problem is that Trick Attack gives your party a ton of more DPS than MNK gives you.

I doubt they would buff everyone else to balance it out, but I don't want them to nerf NIN's own DPS... so I would suggest them changing Trick Attack, so that you still get as much DPS from it, but the rest of the group gets less or something. That would pretty easily balance it out, and nobody would be mad about it.

nope the noob NIN in my static never outdps my MNK despite having similar gears even on say t11 when i got those stupid tethers 24/7 and i can't do rear combo

MNK has mantra(full power), NIN has trick attack. Its all ok. And seems that dps is similar, its not needed to change trick attack.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

nope the noob NIN in my static never outdps my MNK despite having similar gears even on say t11 when i got those stupid tethers 24/7 and i can't do rear combo

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But comparisons like this don't lead anywhere. Just because you don't know NINs that can touch your DPS, doesn't mean no one can. As it stand there's a video of a NIN out there doing 520 DPS on a dummy with no outside help (read as no one is putting any debuffs on the target for him; he does however have party buff and buff food, but that's what most extremely high parsing MNK videos also show). So as long as you can easily claim to do like 530+ DPS on a dummy (without bringing your DK bitch), there simply is no "nope".

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Det-skillspeed for Ninja. I'm running at 488 skill speed so that the GCD with Huton is exactly at 2.0s. I have tried lower skill speeds on dummies, at 450 it is very borderline because there will be times you risk your dancing edge debuff actually dropped before you reapplied it.



Actually, I think Ninja is the easiest. I started the game as a DRG, I have tried out MNK briefly in 2.3 so I got the first hand experience for melee DPS, and I have to say that NIN is probably the easiest to manage. In a sense it is extremely close to MNK based on a speed buff (GL3, Huton) and priority system (DK vs DE, Demolish VS Mutliate etc) but you have no positional to worry about. Just don't screw up your ninjitsus and do it fast enough.

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I saw your post in the other thread and liked it, tested it out and it's actually 486 needed to hit the 2.0 with Huton. I hit 480 speed in a couple gear switches and extra melds then tested out 2/4/5/6 speed from low end foods. 485 still had 2.01, 486 gave 2.00.

As far as all the DRG whining here has it been pointed out here an SE rep recently posted a DRG buff is coming? MNK and NIN are about on par, only DRG needs to come up. And if that's the route SE is taking, you can be pretty sure there won't be any significant NIN nerfs involved.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

stuff

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I really don't think TA is giving as much DPS as a lot of people are claining/ thing it does.

No one is saving their CDs just to line up for TA, seeing that overall it's more of a dps loss to do that. No one should be overriding their dots with more than a few seconds left on the etc.. etc.

it's basically a "where ever you are at in your rotation right now gets 10% more damage for the next 10 seconds".

So out of a 6 minute fight, everyone gets boosted damage for one. I don't think over the course of the entire fight that it's increasing the groups damage by a "ton".

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Originally Posted by Leonus

So out of a 6 minute fight, everyone gets boosted damage for one. I don't think over the course of the entire fight that it's increasing the groups damage by a "ton".

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Its about a 1.66% increase in DPS overall, assuming you do completely even dmg throughout the entire fight. If you take into account you get a TA out when everyone is burning CDs at the beginning of the fight, and that the NIN is making sure their skills are going off in an efficient way, I bet that the practical increase to DPS is about 2%. In a 6 minute fight that's about equal to an LB2 from a melee.

Which is pretty good. BUT - TA is a deadly skill on dps checks.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

But comparisons like this don't lead anywhere.

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Which is much more ridiculious with comparing dummy stats vs not so dummy-ish t11 stats, besides whats the point when my i115 mnk can pull 550 dps on dummy with no dk bitch?

I don't know what people are using to parse these ridiculous 500+ dps numbers, but in equal i110 gear, MNK ~470 dps, full tp burn (~2:30 mins); NIN ~440, dps full tp burn (~5:30 min). Solo, no party/food buffs. MNK can do higher due their wind-up nature if someone feeds them TP, they don't reach their DPS ceiling before their TP runs out. NIN on the other hand starts with high burst but eventually settles around 430-440 that will not rise.

I can't make a first hand comparison for DRG since I don't have it equally geared yet. But nonetheless, crying about NIN being OP is silly.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

Which is much more ridiculious with comparing dummy stats vs not so dummy-ish t11 stats, besides whats the point when my i115 mnk can pull 550 dps on dummy with no dk bitch?

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That's not the point. I'm not comparing dummy parses vs. T11 parses, I'm comparing dummy vs dummy with similar gear setup (iLvl 110 with HA weapon) under similar conditions (party buff, buff food). Comparing apples against oranges (iLvl 110 vs. your iLvl 115 which probably uses iLvl 120 weapon) doesn't help the case. And before anyone thinks it's monks crying. I'm neither playing monk nor ninja, I main a Dragoon. All I'm saying is that the numbers out there point at Ninja being right up there with Monks DPS-wise, I can't find any hints of monks destroying ninjas. Statements like "my friends parsed me higher than that but I don't have access to those numbers" or "my vastly better better geared monk can pull higher numbers" are not exactly conclusive. And before someone comes across saying that dummy fights aren't representative, a dummy fight actually does the monk a favour as there are no mechanics involved that may force a GL drop which can happen in real encounters.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

stuff

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It would be nice of drg was able to hit those similar numbers to nin and mnk before the piercing debuff bonus to brds was factored in.

Plus a buff to drgs magic defense, then utility thing probably wouldn't be such a big issue.

monk's dps ceiling is higher

There's something fundamentally wrong with this whole discussion :P

Prior to the arrival of ninja, the forums were full of how bard's (relatively) low DPS was justified for the utility they bring to the table while being able to DPS. Petitions were made for it to have their DPS increased and debates were held why it shouldn't be increased because of practically one reason: Utility.

Now that Ninja is here, their high damage is justified for it's "difficulty" of play. While fundamentally ninja is pretty much the same as any other melee class: Keep up debuffs, keep up dots and keep buffs on CD and everything becomes muscle memory with enough experience with it. There's one major difference between ninja and other melee: Fat Utility Pack. As discussed in this topic earlier, ninja's have enough dps to be on par with monks while out damaging dragoons on punching bag encounters (T6, T8, T11 you name it). But they also bring a lot of utility to the table that other melees can't do (as well):
-Slashing debuff in case of two paladins or in favour for warrior dps/enmity building
-Party-wide damage increase with the vulnerability up debuff for a short period.
-Goad steals a bit away from bard's utility kit. Although it's not party wide, goad does not reduce the user's or receiver's damage - Unlike paeon
-Less prone to TP starved compared to other melees. Bring a setup with 2 tanks, 2 ninja's and 2 casters and you don't even need a bard any more for resource-heavy encounters.
-Healthy kit to do both single target damage as well as area damage well. This is also much more sustainable compared to dragoon and monk AoE.

The utility a ninja brings, both obvious and less obvious benefits (TP reasons), clearly outshines their other melee counterparts. But somehow their dps that could compete with monks is reasonable, while a bard's is not? This reeks of hypocrisy.

The slamnk no debuff goes two ways, some believe that it should be the wars job to keep it up, others believe it's the ninja. However, it was about time we got a dps class with some synergy with the tanks.

The party wide damage increase is for 10 seconds, once every minute and that if it's used on cue, every time. I don't think it compares to brds foes, and really is more in line with dragon kick and disembowel to me. Those debuffs are able to be kept up the entire fight to where the drg/brd combo take full advantage. If you're stacked up with 2 mnks, the same applies with DK. Overall the damage increased by TA over a 6 minute fight is 1.6% overall in a 6 minute fight (as stated earlier).

Goad can only be used once every 3 minutes, I don't consider it stealing from bards utility as it only affects one person where as brds can effect every melee in the party. Let's also be honest, brds do not like to use paeon as it lowers their dps. When in all actuality, if you do the one tank/2 melee/2 caster/1 brd/2 healers it's more raid damage to use paeon when the melee dps start to run low on tp.

Ninja, so far is less prone to tp starvation. Still can't use Goad on themselves though, and tp starvation will eventually happen.

Ninja's aoe damage is not as good as people want to believe. It's just better than mnks. I think as far as melee dps aoe goes it's Drg > Nin > mnk.

The only melee dps ninja really outshines currently is drg. It doesn't pose a real threat to anyone else's spot in a group. Drgs are still awesome, but the masses make it out to be less than that.

Ninja also still has to obey the melee range mechanics that brd can dodge a still dps continuously. Along with all the utility that brd has over every other class... brds with Mnk level dps is too much.

If anything, drg needs to be brought up to be more in line with Mnk and nin in utility and damage.

This is all my opnion though.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

The party wide damage increase is for 10 seconds, once every minute and that if it's used on cue, every time. I don't think it compares to brds foes, and really is more in line with dragon kick and disembowel to me. Those debuffs are able to be kept up the entire fight to where the drg/brd combo take full advantage. If you're stacked up with 2 mnks, the same applies with DK. Overall the damage increased by TA over a 6 minute fight is 1.6% overall in a 6 minute fight (as stated earlier).

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The increased damage from the vulnerability debuff applies to the entire party, rather than just casters. Everyone benefits from it and the longer the encounter, the more obvious the difference will become. Foe's Requiem can last up to 60 seconds if used from the start. Re-using it later on the fight will prove to be difficult unless there are a lot of pauses which prevents the need of Paeon. Even when re-used mid battle, it won't be for the full duration, if any at all. Meanwhile: Trick Attack can always be applied every 60 seconds for 10 seconds worth regardless of personal resources.
You also mentioned it's more in line with Dragon Kick and Disembowel. Ninja's get their own slashing resistance debuff as well. If the warrior applies it instead of ninja, they have something similar to a dragon kick-slave like two monks would have. Instead: You're sacrificing tank damage over dps-class damage. The fact Ninja has their own slashing debuff at their disposal - Better yet, have the possibility for the tank class to do this for them - voids the comparison with dragon kick and disembowel.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Goad can only be used once every 3 minutes, I don't consider it stealing from bards utility as it only affects one person where as brds can effect every melee in the party. Let's also be honest, brds do not like to use paeon as it lowers their dps. When in all actuality, if you do the one tank/2 melee/2 caster/1 brd/2 healers it's more raid damage to use paeon when the melee dps start to run low on tp.

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Bring another ninja instead of a bard and you'll have:
Another DPS that deals damage comparable with monk
Double vulnerability debuff up time
Ninja's that can Goad each other or the tank if they desperately need it.

Bring another ninja instead of another tank in favour of solo tanking and you'll have:
Yet another DPS comparable with monk
Another 10 seconds worth of vulnerability up time

With ninja's being able to goad each other it would solve the following:

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Ninja, so far is less prone to tp starvation. Still can't use Goad on themselves though, and tp starvation will eventually happen.

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In that sense, a group composition with 3 ninja's will not only steal the bard's job, it'll offer a lot of DPS as group whole. Heck, bring four ninja's! 40 seconds worth of vulnerability down up time!

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Originally Posted by Leonus

The only melee dps ninja really outshines currently is drg. It doesn't pose a real threat to anyone else's spot in a group. Drgs are still awesome, but the masses make it out to be less than that.

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The only real utility the dragoon brings to a group is increased bard damage. Other than that there's no real reason to bring a bard. A ninja has relatively no need to wind-up their damage, which would also beat the edge dragoon had over monks: Melee burst ability.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Ninja also still has to obey the melee range mechanics that brd can dodge a still dps continuously. Along with all the utility that brd has over every other class... brds with Mnk level dps is too much.

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Melees can stay glued to the targets while dodging like bards can. The only encounter where this is not the case would be Titan Extreme unless you are willing to eat a bomb. It's not like the bosses are ants: Their hit boxes are huge. All around it there is plenty of space to avoid directed AoE if you happen to be in danger of hitting it. Even Ramuh's Thunder Spark would hardly hinder you if you time your dodging right.

That mindset is very common too. While it's true, bards are also always the first pick to handle movement heavy mechanics. Handling mechanics does hurt their DPS: They lose out on auto attack damage.

The vuaterability debuff, if being taken advantage of like that will be nerfed, much like smns on the past with their dots.

The slashing debuff is very much so comparable to DK or disembowel. I also believe it goes in line with the melee dps being able to buff it's own damage. Mnk has DK, drg has disembowel and nin has DE.

The vulnerability up effects everyone, yes, but for a shorter duration than a lot of others debuffs do. As time does go on, you do get more damage out of it, however when properly geared for the content the fights last less time the more people get familiar with the fight.

I personally don't know of any groups that exclude brds. Having a brd in your group is to much of a benefit. Mp restoration, foes, tp restoration, kiting ability, constant damage. Not many groups are willing to give that up when brds make the party overall more efficient than stacking other jobs. Stacking two nins doesn't give foes for the casters, group wide tp, the healers their Mp in tight situations... etc.

Again, if people stack nins to take advantage of TA, it will be nerfed like the one dot that smns got nerfed on. TA effect won't be able to be applied fo xx amount of time. You can bring a drg to buff brd damage (maybe higher damage after drg buffs) or a mnk for higher dps.

Melee can stay glued yes, but at times this is not always feasible. And anytime a dps moves away from the boss, the loose auto attack damage.

99% of parties want a brd included in the party.

I'm a nin and i want a brd in my parties. D:

I really want to see someone clear T10-13 with 4-5 ninjas....

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Originally Posted by Leonus

The slashing debuff is very much so comparable to DK or disembowel. I also believe it goes in line with the melee dps being able to buff it's own damage. Mnk has DK, drg has disembowel and nin has DE.

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You weren't talking about Dancing Edge earlier:

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Originally Posted by Leonus

The party wide damage increase is for 10 seconds, once every minute and that if it's used on cue, every time. I don't think it compares to brds foes, and really is more in line with dragon kick and disembowel to me. Those debuffs are able to be kept up the entire fight to where the drg/brd combo take full advantage. If you're stacked up with 2 mnks, the same applies with DK. Overall the damage increased by TA over a 6 minute fight is 1.6% overall in a 6 minute fight (as stated earlier).

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And the fact it can be taken advantage of like that warrants for a nerf. And I do believe you mean the effect of Virus, rather than DoTs. But a nerf to prevent back-to-back or rapid application of Trick Attack would the least Square-Enix need to introduce so other classes don't lose their functionality/utility (in this case: Bard)

Yeah I cant out DPS a monk in a boss fight. When killing mobs and such yeah I can all day long. Its all about positional. And we have more positionals than just one. There is sneak attack and trick attack too, which gives a hella nasty debuff to the enemy.

Yea, virus.

Ah, my bad, I meant to also talk about DE. I still do believe that the TA effect is somewhat in line with foes but applies to everyone and for less time. I don't think the effect is OP, just if people are able to stack it. In that case it should be nerfed.

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Originally Posted by CrystalMagus

Yeah I cant out DPS a monk in a boss fight. When killing mobs and such yeah I can all day long. Its all about positional. And we have more positionals than just one. There is sneak attack and trick attack too, which gives a hella nasty debuff to the enemy.

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But there's no reason to use sneak attack once you have trick attack, so it's basically one positional ad a different positional you never use. >_>

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

I really want to see someone clear T10-13 with 4-5 ninjas....

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If you could WAR solo tank any of the turns (you can't solo tank any of the turns in FCoB afaik) and solo heal them, you could bring 6 NINs, have 100% up time on Trick Attack, and never have any of the NINs need to keep up DE. I actually really want to see someone do T9 or something with this setup just to see the numbers with 100% TA up time.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

But there's no reason to use sneak attack once you have trick attack, so it's basically one positional ad a different positional you never use. >_>

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In majority of fights, you are correct. However there are some fights that ST will be used for convenience sake.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

If you could WAR solo tank any of the turns (you can't solo tank any of the turns in FCoB afaik) and solo heal them, you could bring 6 NINs, have 100% up time on Trick Attack, and never have any of the NINs need to keep up DE. I actually really want to see someone do T9 or something with this setup just to see the numbers with 100% TA up time.

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Definitely can't solo tank 10, 11, or 13. T12 is in the "possible but not realistic at all" category where you could Provoke with a class to eat the Revelations and otherwise solo tank it, getting heal bombed through Bennus and not participating in the rot mechanic or fountain.

That being said, as fun as 4 NIN sounds and as strong as it sounds at ST DPS, there's too many reasons to bring a caster + BRD too. Square basically forced it on us; Physical resistance, AoE, caster LB, having a mobile mechanic user from BRD ... there's always a very strong reason to bring a caster in each turn. 4 NIN could definitely clear all content but it'd be more total DPS to do caster + BRD + NIN + NIN in all likelihood.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

But there's no reason to use sneak attack once you have trick attack, so it's basically one positional ad a different positional you never use. >_>

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Kraken says, "Screw your rear attacks."

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

Kraken says, "Screw your rear attacks."

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So does Demon Wall, I guess. What? I can't not do the relic quest. >_>

Anyway, I guess Suiton plus SA beats Raiton, assuming you weren't going to do anything else with that second oGCD gap. I still don't even have it on my bar, though. I don't think two ridiculously easy fights out of the whole game warrant putting it on my bar; same way I feel about Tri-disaster.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

So does Demon Wall, I guess. What? I can't not do the relic quest. >_>

Anyway, I guess Suiton plus SA beats Raiton, assuming you weren't going to do anything else with that second oGCD gap. I still don't even have it on my bar, though. I don't think two ridiculously easy fights out of the whole game warrant putting it on my bar; same way I feel about Tri-disaster.

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Sneak Attack is better than trick for trash pulls.

but otherwise usually TA will beat SA,even if adds in a boss fight and add is high health TA it. If it's low health might as well just save TA for the boss.

only time SA beats TA is in those very few situations where you wont touch the mobs rear very often.

Both SA and TA are godly in PVP though.

Anyone know the 2.4 stat weight. Is it the same as brd? I know brd is det 0.315 and crit 0.318. I'd just like to know for nin

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Sneak Attack is better than trick for trash pulls.

but otherwise usually TA will beat SA,even if adds in a boss fight and add is high health TA it. If it's low health might as well just save TA for the boss.

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That's. . . a bit more generic than I'm willing to take as completely true. While that's certainly a good rule of thumb, the actual answer is a bit more complicated, I think. Trick Attack is itself worth 400 potency, but requires damage equal to another 1,000 of the Ninja's potency within 10 seconds in order to be more damaging than Sneak Attack. So, it's basically a function of the mob's remaining HP. You probably want the mob to have 2,000 or so of your potency worth of HP left before even considering using. . .well, either of them, really, because that's not a lot of potency. I mean, I'm not exactly used to thinking of mob's HP in terms of potency-damage, so it's hard to say where I'd put a cutoff. Basically, I figure the mob needs enough HP left for you to bother using either, then for TA to be better it needs to have enough HP left after *that* for incoming damage over the next 10 seconds (not counting existing dots, which I assume don't get buffed) to make up the difference in potency. Granted, the Ninja himself should be able to cover the difference, but to decide when to use which you need to know how much HP that is.

What's interesting, though, is that a Ninja who's undergeared compared to the rest of his team has an easier time justifying TA. The incoming damage from the rest of the team over the 10 seconds needs to equal 10 uncombo'd Gust Slashes (10x100 potency). The weaker the Ninja is, the easier that is to meet and surpass. Doesn't really change anything, but I thought I'd point it out.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

snip

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I didn't feel like giving a long winded answer that can be summed up in a few words for once.

High HP = TA
Low = SA
Boss = TA unless forced to front.


There's really no need to over complicate this.

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Originally Posted by Butcherboy

Anyone know the 2.4 stat weight. Is it the same as brd? I know brd is det 0.315 and crit 0.318. I'd just like to know for nin

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Always been wondering myself. Surprised people don't have test results yet. For now I have been doing Det > Crit > SS. I have gear that can make it go Crit > Det > SS instead, but when I tested it myself, the Crit setup felt more based on luck when dealing damage while Det was more consistent. It was observation though and not actual math, so hopefully someone comes in with actual results.