"To Improve PvP game balance, the ability Cleric Stance will no longer be usable"

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Originally Posted by Gor

the voice of reason

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It would have been... if only it didn't completly miss the point.

RiceisNice: "Removing power from an OP class makes people cry. Plus, Healers shouldn't be on par with DPS."
Hollowed: "Let me tell you why you should die in 1v1 against a healer. Also, penguins don't wear pajamas."

No wonder why there is a debate if people don't understand what is being said.

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

...

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Has absolutely nothing to do with what I said; you're talking about a 1v1 scenario when I was referring to PvP in general. The fact that a class is both capable of healing themselves and their party while deal damage that can be on par with classes who can only deal damage leads to problems in inherent class balance which spans into the grand scheme of things.

This is an issue because of how FFXIV locks your role in based on class and gives them abilities to be capable of soloing (cleric stance to dps). The problem is that the lack of foresight (such as when they implemented frontlines) of how it affects future content they add.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

As a drg the only time a pld is ever able to kill me one on one is if he has HG up

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Sorry, only thing that stood out in a wall of text. What kind of scrub ass PLDs do you run into lol... I assume ones that don't use any cooldowns, don't Full Swing, don't pacify, don't stun.. or I guess attack period? 'cause all that is more than enough to murder a melee, and solo a healer (YEAH I SAID IT).

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Sorry, only thing that stood out in a wall of text. What kind of scrub ass PLDs do you run into lol... I assume ones that don't use any cooldowns, don't Full Swing, don't pacify, don't stun.. or I guess attack period? 'cause all that is more than enough to murder a melee, and solo a healer (YEAH I SAID IT).

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Already explained why melees do not fear paladin stuns, not my problem if you cant read (sounds to me like you run into a bunch of idiot melees who actually let you stun lock em instead of using fetter ward and dismantling you). The fact that you rely on that stun so much as a crutch to kill a melee is precisely the reason you will die to one that knows how to use their pvp abilities. Face it, given those 8 to 12 seconds to attack you unmolested you wil undoubtedly be incurring alot more dmg from the drg (even blowing all ur defensive cooldowns) than you will be capable of dishing out full swing or not (since 15% dmg increase in crap dmg is still crap dmg) to the point that you will NEED to pop hallowed ground in order to survive. The disparity in damage dealt is compounded even further if the melee actually uses slow on you (which for some reason very few ever do). As I said before the only way your gonna kill a drg one on one is when you have hallowed ground available since it will buy you an extra six seconds to handicap the melee in a similar fashion to what your trying to achieve with your stun lock or pacification (which you can just purify off so idk why you even bothered mentioning this since its not a debuff you can place at will). As for killing a healer, I could see maybe killing an unskilled whm but you arent killing any schs as pld solo either.

Since you tunnel vision on the word stun, that means you can't read either. Stun is a last resort. Period. It's a tool to be used not early, but later down the line. Sorry, but fun fact: Fetter Ward has nothing about pacification, which is a far deadlier weapon than a stunlock. Please, I'm begging you to purify pacification and let me keep Full Swing on you. BEGGING YOU. And lol, I'm starting to think you only fight PLDs that rock them VIT accessories. Bad damage? I don't even know what to say to that ........ 20% from Full Swing, 30% from Fight or Flight, if you're stupid enough to use Blood for Blood (which I assume you are if you're doing any significant damage) then an additional 25%... I'm sorry bud, but fight some real players before you start talking. Bai.

As for the SCH comment, you only get one shot to 1v1 a healer for reasons I'm sure even you understand. The more skilled they are, the more difficult it is. You're wrong again though, it's entirely possible, and I have done it.

EDIT: I should probably conclude this by saying that I don't doubt you're a fine player yourself, but it's no secret that classes are not balanced for 1v1. But the way it is, there's 0 reason for a melee to be taking out any tank right now besides the latter being... extraordinarily bad.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Denial

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If a healer is out dpsing you then you should level another class. People were crying OP because they could not take down healers without support, which is how it should be. I will say it again so there is no misunderstanding, if you are being out dpsed by a healer then please stop playing your class and level something else P.S. if your entire pt is stupid enough to group up for Holy spam then yes they will out dps you and yes you deserve to die. And actually I was talking about PvP in general, if you want to talk in details lets go. PvP in general = a GROUP FIGHT. Anyone with a brain stem will go after the healers first, as they should those are the ones who will drag the fight out. Being that this is a GROUP fight, PvP in general, whatever you want to call it Healers need to be able to survive more than one person after them, as a SIDE EFFECT they are stronger 1v1 which is where the crying comes into play.

This games PvP is not (at least wasn't) and SHOULD NOT be balanced around any single class, in a group battle it should be balanced around the group as a WHOLE. This CS nerf did two things, and only two. One: It made people like you "feel" better. Two: It upset people who understood their classes and enjoyed it, causing them to lose interest in PvP. Of course since I know some people cannot read I have to point this out as well, I am talking in general as obviously this did not change everyone's desire to play PvP.

P.S. You and a healer go at it, just to test, go at it with no healing at all, pure DPS who can kill who the fastest and tell me a healer is "on par" with a dps, you are not that dense you are in denial if you believe a healer would win, not even close. Do you have any idea how fast a good dps can destroy a healer? I had a BLM kill me in 3 spells, THREE spells, do you know how long it takes for a schs DoTs to kill you or a whm spamming stone II? You cannot seriously believe a healer is on par with a dps when it comes to damage. Take out healing and a healer will always lose.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

It would have been... if only it didn't completly miss the point.

RiceisNice: "Removing power from an OP class makes people cry. Plus, Healers shouldn't be on par with DPS."
Hollowed: "Let me tell you why you should die in 1v1 against a healer. Also, penguins don't wear pajamas."

No wonder why there is a debate if people don't understand what is being said.

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Actually I was only explaining why a healer was NOT overpowered seeing as many people (hint) do not see the forest for the trees, more than one detail was required (which apparently did no good anyway). Please read my entire post before making remarks, also I was talking to a single person and that was NOT you.

P.S. penguins do wear pajamas :X

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Originally Posted by Atreus

it's entirely possible, and I have done it.

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http://i59.tinypic.com/xp4ydd.png

:cool:

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

http://i59.tinypic.com/xp4ydd.png

:cool:

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LOL
rekt!~

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

-Snip-

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Read your previous post again, then. It was all based on a 1v1 situation... which is irrelevant. I repeat: your whole point about "out damaging a healer" on a 1v1 encounter is irrelevant and out of context.
Besides, you were the only one talking about "healers out dpsing". RiceisNice only said "on par with". And even if healers were, in fact, slightly less capable in terms of DD, nobody said that healers were out dpsing. You either don't read what others said, or you are just putting words in their mouth.

Also, you didn't provide any explanation as "Why Healers were not OP with Cleric Stance?", you just stated "they were not op" like is was a fact, when it was, actuallly, just a mere opinion without any kind logical argument or proof.

There is a 31 pages thread just below, plus this 12 pages one full of people explaining why Cleric Stance was "too much". Read them.

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

also I was talking to a single person and that was NOT you

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Then answer on PM, not on a public forum.
But anyway, ironically, I was answering to Gor myself for thinking that your post was the "voice of reason", I was not talking to you directly.

So, please, apply your own advice to yourself before saying anything to others.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

http://i59.tinypic.com/xp4ydd.png

:cool:

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LMAO, poetry.

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

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Fyce beat me to it, but you're still missing the context of what where I'm getting at. I never said a dps should be able to kill a healer under most circumstances, infact they really shouldn't be able to; If that was the case, healers can't keep up with any outgoing damage by themselves and have absolutely no presence on the field.


You say "take out healing, and the healer will lose". Yes, because they are healers. But this is not the case here, they took out cleric stance. You even mentioned this, a dps would still lose to a healer because they cannot outdps what they can heal back (although then you mentioned getting yourself bombed by a BLM, so...wut?) without some sort of stun or clutch cooldowns. Worse case scenario is that it becomes an exercise in futility for both sides without some sort of outside intervention.

And you now what? I'd be damned upset too when my class gets nerfed, but there's a line where they get nerfed because it breaks the mold for the wrong reasons (healer being able to dps or BLMs suddenly being able to tank like a PLD) or straight up overpowered.

The game shouldn't be balanced around a single class, but it should have a master class either. Nearly everyone can argue that SCH and WHM are some of the most versatile classes in the PvP front because of their ability to sustain themselves, the party and deal damage through cleric stance, while BRD, PLD and BLM become extremely situational because they can only bring one or two perks to the table (harassment, control, burst damage) under very few circumstances (when they themselves are not being harassed, have a party to capitalize on it, etc).

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

K

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K so I will say this as simple as I can think of, cause you are just not understanding what I am saying and I am the open minded type so I will assume its on me. Here goes: You say healers were OP because they can heal and are on par with DPS in terms of damage, I say WRONG, healers are not on par with DPS in terms of damage, example 1, 2, and 3 are why. Understand better now? The solo thing was the example, not argument.

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

healers are not on par with DPS in terms of damage

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I do not follow your discussion closely but just want point out this statement proven false many time in past when crusade stance still active to be use in PVP. Healer damage become same as DPS on single calculative hit but not overall cumulative hit or as frequent hit.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

I do not follow your discussion closely but just want point out this statement proven false many time in past when crusade stance still active to be use in PVP. Healer damage become same as DPS on single calculative hit but not overall cumulative hit or as frequent hit.

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I would go into detail as to why this is a false statement and give you the numbers to back it up but I can see now that people only see what they want to and even if I give them the math to back it up they would still argue. This debate has lost my interest.

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

I would go into detail as to why this is a false statement and give you the numbers to back it up but I can see now that people only see what they want to and even if I give them the math to back it up they would still argue. This debate has lost my interest.

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You do not read I say I just point out statement false, such saying is because I not interested in argue with you.
Provide you capable of know what argue even means.

You do not need to do such thing as past many reply you give, such thought never cross your mind when is basic knowledge such detail is need for discussion in first place. Argue in hypothetical mean you have nothing constructive to contribute in first place.
You make such assumption about me? Then your detail will be similar in value to your attitude you just show. Even if you have interest or not, very safe to say will not be something everyone else has not already read. :rolleyes:

Thank you for save trouble being repetitive?
This thread have far too many repeat opinion already.

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

I would go into detail as to why this is a false statement and give you the numbers to back it up but I can see now that people only see what they want to and even if I give them the math to back it up they would still argue. This debate has lost my interest.

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Well, the data to show SCH dps potential is already given:

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/ff14eotan...3/033e6a33.jpg

A PvE healer has INT of 222. Ratio of the INT and the spell damage is 1:1. Parser showed 80k damage from dots only. (While healing at the same time)

By use ilvl100 INT accessories you gain 80 INT and another 30 INT from bonus points. You have a total of 322 INT and 10% damage bonus from the Cleric Stance if you are going full DPS. Use number 80k as base parameter. Do a simple calculation and blend in some criteria such as sub dps stats and rune 2 spam. It is possible for SCH to par with Bard's damage.

There is already a raid with 1 warrior and 23 scholars cleared the ST. This is also a strong supporting reference. If you decides to use your last response as your closure to this thread, then it is fine. Otherwise, I am interesting to see if you are able to provide an explanation on your version.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

If you decides to use your last response as your closure to this thread

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So I have to say...You use a JP parse (probably not yours) for a T9 raid, as an example for a SCHs PvP DMG? when the SCH is over twice as low as the lowest DPS which just so happens to be the BRD? (Which is the weakest DPS class in terms of pure damage) The numbers look pretty but 124 dps for a 11min fight is weak, also the WHM healed about twice as much as the SCH so this SCH was not full time healing (overcure was only 14% above the SCH), defiantly DPSing more than heals and that makes 124DPS weak. All that aside though I am more curious to why the SMN has less than the BRD by almost 100. :X
Anyway I am not trying to explain why healer isn't OP in pvp, I give up on trying to reason that with people, just wanted to remark on your post, also I am waiting for the "TANKS ARE OP" thread that should be coming in the next few weeks.

P.S. Please don't say things like "this is also a strong supporting reference" without giving a link and some numbers to go with it, all I read is opinion trying to be masked as data (Not saying you intended to do that but is how I see it at first glance). Also lolST; and I have seen a full WAR + one healer per pt alliance clear it before so.....yeah...7WHM 1 WAR Titan HM....that was fun. All in all though I do appreciate you trying to back up your argument with proof, even if it was faulty, the sign of someone who is fun to talk to and debate with.

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

So I have to say...You use a JP parse (probably not yours) for a T9 raid, as an example for a SCHs PvP DMG? when the SCH is over twice as low as the lowest DPS which just so happens to be the BRD? (Which is the weakest DPS class in terms of pure damage) The numbers look pretty but 124 dps for a 11min fight is weak, also the WHM healed about twice as much as the SCH so this SCH was not full time healing (overcure was only 14% above the SCH), defiantly DPSing more than heals and that makes 124DPS weak. All that aside though I am more curious to why the SMN has less than the BRD by almost 100. :X
Anyway I am not trying to explain why healer isn't OP in pvp, I give up on trying to reason that with people, just wanted to remark on your post, also I am waiting for the "TANKS ARE OP" thread that should be coming in the next few weeks.

P.S. Please don't say things like "this is also a strong supporting reference" without giving a link and some numbers to go with it, all I read is opinion trying to be masked as data (Not saying you intended to do that but is how I see it at first glance). Also lolST; and I have seen a full WAR + one healer per pt alliance clear it before so.....yeah...7WHM 1 WAR Titan HM....that was fun. All in all though I do appreciate you trying to back up your argument with proof, even if it was faulty, the sign of someone who is fun to talk to and debate with.

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I used the word "given" because the information is already given. The parser is actually in this thread about few pages ago. The information about one Warrior Schoalr is also given in other discussion thread (with screenshots). It is not my obligation to repeat that information again and again. Try to enter a discussion thread after read first plage and last page is never a good habit. It is very clearly that you didnt read whole thing, otherwise you wont make statement against Riceisnice. He is talking about Oscar but you are trying to fit in with Rotten Tomato.

What did I said when I provided the dps parser? "Scholar's DPS potential" is what i am able to recall for. I am using a parser from a PvE Scholar in order to analyze a Scholar's DPS potential is reasonable and logical. This PvE Scholar is not even trying to DPS, he is main healer and applied dots and he still able to generate the damage number that is close to SMN without any INT accessories.

The scenario is what if Scholar is not just healing and keep up dots and actually trying to dps with INT accessories and actually have put Rune 2 into dps rotation. Also, I havent take into consideration the amount of INT converted from MND by the Cleric Stance yet and the number is already pretty high.

I dont really care what perspective you are coming from nor care about whether Scholar is OP or not anymore. The ball has been thrown, I have made somone to ask the reason of Cleric Stance removal on open discussion letter, I will just wait for the result. My response is only to provide a support reference to counter your statement because your statement remains vague without a solid reference.

You did mentioned that you are able to provide a calcuation, then please do that. Make an alliance to ST and have few SCH actually running as DPS so we can compare. Dont just give us a vague statement like healer cant never par with DPS when there is already evidence to support that SCH can par with DPS.

PS. Please keep in mind that Arcanist is considered as DPS. The major difference between SMN and SCH is only the healing pet vs dps pet, SCH gear has no INT and SCH has healing job actions and SMN has DPS job action.. The based damage potential from the class Arcanist is still there.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Opinion

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Wo calm the crap down, all I did was just remark on your post and say thanks for not being a clown, don't tell me I was mistaken. I said I wasn't going to try and explain anymore why healer was not OP. I didn't disprove you because I don't want to, also if you are going to counter my statement do it with your own research not use an old parse that has nothing to do with PvP and you cannot read correctly. "Anyway I am not trying to explain why healer isn't OP in pvp" just because you apparently missed this part of my post.

Don't ask for numbers when you cannot even come up with your own, that parse you used wasn't even yours to top off it was a crap parse, (if anything that parse was helping prove me right) then get pissed because I didn't proved numbers, I admitted I don't want to talk about that anymore but you pretend to know what your talking about then attack me. Btw I take back saying you were fun to talk to, you are just as opinionated as every other person in these threads when someone disagrees with them.

Math.

Just because you asked so nicely. So 124 DPS is the AVERAGE damage per second over the course of the entire fight which lasted not quite 11 minutes. DoT damage ticks about every 3 seconds give or take, and the GCD on most SCH sets are going to be very close to the 2.5 second recast (most SCHS go for crit and det not SS) also factor in the half second or so it takes for the damage to proc after casting it, for simplicity sake we will just say every 3 seconds. So her average is 124 DPS in a three second span that would be 372 damage per cast, including her DoT ticks. 372 damage per cast, every three seconds, lets say you have 4k HP that will take around 11 to 12 casts to kill you. Now lets talk about this BRD, I would like to point out to you that this class is the WEAKEST DPS in terms of pure damage, due to their support roles.

So our BRD here is 262 DPS, in case you forgot already that is DAMAGE PER SECOND. so 262 is his average, and for simplicity sake we will use 3 seconds again. Meaning this BRD is dishing out 786 damage EACH GCD, that is over twice as much as the SCH is doing each cast. Now lets say just for fun our SCH here is rocking VIT accessories (not even going to factor in how that will lower his/her DPS) and has 5k HP, better yet lets say he is pimping it out and has 6k HP. at 6K HP it would take 8 GCD rotations with this current setup to kill him an average of 24 seconds to this SCH's 36 seconds a full 12 seconds faster than our SCH here.

Now our SCH here also healed about half as much as this WHM so lets just say for simplicity sake again he was 50/50 with heals and DPS (which may not be that far off) take his 262 and it becomes 524 now our SCH is really in man-mode killing you in a solid 8 casts as well right equal with this BRD. Now lets be a little more realistic and our SCH is actually wearing real gear which is what he was doing here because TURN 9. Meaning this SCH won't have 6k HP but only around 3.8-4k, again for simplicity sake lets say 4k. With that damage at that HP a BRD only needs 5-6 casts to kill you, lets say 5 again because I like easy numbers. 5 casts being 15 seconds a full 9 seconds faster than the SCH.

There you go, math.

P.S. This right here is why I told you that your parse was a crap example, using T9 for PvP is stupid but even if this was PvP and I used PvP parse to go with it, my point is still the same. Also, in case you did in fact miss this point, this is an AVERAGE things like crit, misses, etc are all factored in, as well as downtime (boss becoming untargetable, being dead, etc.)

So 262 > 786?

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

Math.
So 262 > 786?

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I can see why there is a communication gap between you and others from this response. Not meaning to offend you, bur let me clarify.

I am using this parser only because it is not biased. This PvE Scholar is unaware of this discussion and simply is performing his usual routine. Rune 2 damage is filtered out. 80,476 is the raw damage from dots. His INT is 222. 1 INT = 1 spell damage = 362.50 (round to 362). His Dot dps is 124.58 from dots only.

Post 2.38, Scholar has 322 INT, the damage goes up to 120,350, dps 184.02.

2.35, most scholar equipped vit with 30 to MND (470 MND) . Cleric Stance swap int and MND, so 470 INT = 170, 375. Cleric stance gives 10% = 187,412., dps 286.

I have ignored rune 2 and sub stats. Also, if this is really PvP scenario, I can guarantee you no dps will have 100 % up time when healer start to sprint. Dots however is 100% up time.

Just from number SCH dots @ 286 vs BRD 262. At PvP, does bard able to do that dps with range potency penalty? I think not.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Willful Blindness

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Where in the world did you just pull 286DPS out of that parse? You are telling me that SCH's DoTs are ticking for 858 (average) on ever tick not even factoring in Ruin II? You telling me that SCH is doing almost 20% of his HP? That SCH just went up to #3 on the DPS list...

Only thing I did was use your "example" and tell you why it was incorrect. and my numbers were per GCD not per second, meaning it was each attach not each second. Also you say only DoTs, but you have no idea what this SCH was doing. Did you see the heal parse? WHM was over double the heals of the SCH even with AoE that is still huge, what that means is this SCH was doing more than just poping DoTs and going back to healing. Please get your argument straight before you go on pretending you know what you are talking about. And I read over your post many times I still cannot figure out where you pulled 286DPS out of a parse that said 124.

You added to the SCHs dps to make it look better but you didn't factor any of your "math" for that BRD, the BRD stays right where it us but somehow the SCH jumps up over what twice his DPS was earlier? Perhaps I should make it clear that unless this SCH was a retard, he was using CS for his DPS. Stop trying to argue with numbers you do not understand, you cannot mix math with OPINION. Don't pull numbers out of your a$$, if you want to argue numbers go parse yourself and give the results, the only thing I did was use the numbers YOU posted.

I gave you math, you still argued, its very apparent you cannot take in reason. You are not a victim of unfair balance you just do not understanding how the game works and how each class is meant to be played.

I am very curious how you managed to figure the SCH was out DPSing the SMN; as I said don't pull numbers out of your a$$, parse yourself it will do all the math for you.

I reply for thought, please excuse.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Rune 2 damage is filtered out. 80,476 is the raw damage from dots. His INT is 222. 1 INT = 1 spell damage = 362.50 (round to 362). His Dot dps is 124.58 from dots only.

Post 2.38, Scholar has 322 INT, the damage goes up to 120,350, dps 184.02.

2.35, most scholar equipped vit with 30 to MND (470 MND) . Cleric Stance swap int and MND, so 470 INT = 170, 375. Cleric stance gives 10% = 187,412., dps 286.

I have ignored rune 2 and sub stats. Also, if this is really PvP scenario, I can guarantee you no dps will have 100 % up time when healer start to sprint. Dots however is 100% up time.

Just from number SCH dots @ 286 vs BRD 262. At PvP, does bard able to do that dps with range potency penalty? I think not.

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You compare relative situation? I can understand calculation but I recently watch PVP video from JP player who do SCH PVP only and spend most of time defeating 2 or 3 people by self at Mael OP and Adder OP.
After watch video can safe to say underline is correct? Melee DPS stop when the SCH sprint.

I say problem for why stance is OP is because of way DOT is manage?
SCH is standard no-VIT SCH, meaning use MND item with 4000HP with food. That way crusade stance change MND and INT value, if I not mistaken it go from 400MND to 400INT? This stat same as SMN if sync down? I am unsure as crusade stance not usable any more. MND and INT on gear is same though and value swap is linear.

..but I do not understand post very well?
I know how to relate both the situation you are giving about T9 and PVP, I can try to see what you comparing - but do not understand if I see point completely.

Basically given number, SCH have sustain DPS comparable to SMN but higher than BRD, for Sprint and movement make it difficult for BRD to DPS?
I agree because staying in range very difficult for most and almost impossible depend on where you fight SCH, I have no test recently as stance remove but video show DOT damage for 480 or sometime 520 without エーテルバースト.
Is this what you trying to show?

From my understand of your post, I can make deduction SCH can not be stop because DOT is 100% doing damage? I know that the only way to stop SCH doing damage is to stun them. Not possible to slow down their damage or mitigate the damage they do because of how damage value is manage in the game and how is not difficult to manage SCH shield. Statistically then is possible for SCH to defeat 3 people by self with stance but not possible for SMN to do same thing.

Am I right to say this?
Or something I am not understanding?

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

all I did.. I was mistaken. I said I wasn't..I didn't disprove you because I don't want to, ..nothing to do with PvP and you cannot read correctly. ..I am not trying..

cannot even come up with your own..get pissed because I .. I admitted I don't want to talk about that anymore .. attack me. .. opinionated as every other person

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

Where in the world did you just pull 286DPS out of that parse? You are telling me that SCH's DoTs are ticking for 858 (average) on ever tick not even factoring in Ruin II? You telling me that SCH is doing almost 20% of his HP? That SCH just went up to #3 on the DPS list...

my numbers .. you have no idea what this SCH was doing. Did you see .. pretending you know .. I read over your post many times I still cannot figure out..

You added to the SCHs dps to make it look better but you didn't factor any of your "math" for that BRD, the BRD stays right where it us but somehow the SCH jumps up over what twice his DPS was earlier? Perhaps I should make it clear that unless this SCH was a retard, he was using CS for his DPS. Stop trying to argue with numbers you do not understand, you cannot mix math with OPINION. Don't pull numbers out of your a$$, if you want to argue numbers go parse yourself and give the results, the only thing I did was use the numbers YOU posted.

I .. its very apparent .. you just do not understanding..

I am very curious how you managed to figure the SCH was out DPSing the SMN

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:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

Where in the world did you just pull 286DPS out of that parse? You are telling me that SCH's DoTs are ticking for 858 (average) on ever tick not even factoring in Ruin II? You telling me that SCH is doing almost 20% of his HP? That SCH just went up to #3 on the DPS list...

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Isn't that how Scholar heal? Scholar healing = Scholar + eos. Some parser will show eos healing and some will not. You can't read Japanese so I won't blame you. Eos healed at 343.91 on this parser. The total HPS for this scholar is 807.6. WHM is @ 887.53. Nope, it is fair to say that this Scholar is healing.

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Only thing I did was use your "example" and tell you why it was incorrect. and my numbers were per GCD not per second, meaning it was each attach not each second. Also you say only DoTs, but you have no idea what this SCH was doing. Did you see the heal parse? WHM was over double the heals of the SCH even with AoE that is still huge, what that means is this SCH was doing more than just poping DoTs and going back to healing. Please get your argument straight before you go on pretending you know what you are talking about. And I read over your post many times I still cannot figure out where you pulled 286DPS out of a parse that said 124.

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You are clearly still have no clue about where I am coming from. I made it clear that I have set up conditions before I analyze this data:

1. The actual HPS of this Scholar let me set the he is only doing dot as fixed variable.
2. The damage done is from dots only as fixed variable.

From above two fixed variables to obtain a number as set parameter to analyze how would cleric stance impacting the scholar's dot damage.

By taking gear setup of Scholar on the Frontline at 2.35 (vit accessories and mind attribute), the MNd should be 440 + 30 = 470.

The I am compare the two scenarios by using same Scholar. One scenario is this Scholar,s normal damage without cleric stance, as shown in the parser. The second scenario is this same Scholar used Cleric Stance. The INT and MND swapped, 80k dmg from 222 INT into 170,375 dmg from 470 INT. Cleric stance gives another 10 % = 187,412, more than 100 % increase by simply click one bottom.

The sub stats and rune 2 are irreverent because I already used that number as set parameter. I am doing the mathematic by comparing the amount difference before and after the Cleric Stance.

I will repeat it one more time. Whatever this scholar doing is irreverent, the set parameter has included everything.

You gain more than 100 % damage by simply using Cleric Stance to swap INT and MND with 10% damage.

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I gave you math, you still argued, its very apparent you cannot take in reason. You are not a victim of unfair balance you just do not understanding how the game works and how each class is meant to be played.

I am very curious how you managed to figure the SCH was out DPSing the SMN; as I said don't pull numbers out of your a$$, parse yourself it will do all the math for you.

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Lol, you given the math to compare based on GCD when Scholar dots are not even GCD regulated but damage per second instead. How does that even make sense? I am not going to use rude word like you, but please do check what you are comparing first.

In PvP scenario, SCH dps from dots is remain the same because dots are 100% up time. BLM and BRD are controlled by range potency penalty and interrupt per hit mechanic. All Meeles. won't have 100 % up time to output maximum dps because of the sprint. There is a translated Yoship interview after 2.35 on bluegrtr Fourm that admitted meeles are buffed because both mnk and drg's mechanic are designed based on target is stationary.

To clear up the things with DoTs, their damage is calculated on time of cast. This is very evident with bard DoTs and their two crit buffs (straight shot and internal release); it has 20% bonus crit for the entire duration of the debuff, even when the buff fades from the players.

This would also be the case for cleric stance and SCH DoTs; It gets the full damage boost as long as they cast it while in cleric stance, and retains it when they swap out.

SE should of not remove Cleric Stance.(at least for FL) it a 24v24v24 it all about how you party do not just you. yes a sch can go solo and a OP with Cleric Stance but only cause your pet can still heal full, if they just make it so you pet can only heal like a 100hp with in CS you gold. PS: 2 good dps can kill any healer in under 10sec(seen it happen lot). PVP is for hardcore putting your skills to the test.
whm and sch both good, sch more solo / whm are great when there 3+ of you medic 2,whm(X) that a lot of hp.

there a lot of other party setup you can use to help you win. trying a sch whm smnx6 you dots can kill like nuts.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

scholar is 807.6

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Well you are right I cannot read JP, I assumed it was combined as most people parse it that way.

If that parse was done with CS off then I will admit my mistake I just assume when a healer is going to DPS they use CS, if that is not the case however then yes I would end up with different numbers than you. So assume you are telling the truth (because I cannot read JP) I have to say...that is one bad ass SCH to be third on the DPS list.

I am not unreasonable, far from it, a SCH doing 15%+ of T9 HP I really still don't believe it, however, I am not fool enough to argue with numbers. But seriously if that SCH is out DPSing the SMN then something is really wrong with one of the two :X

I must admit though I did think you were willfully blind, however we would have both ended up at the same number had we both been on the same page, even if CS was being used you clearly understand how the math is done. That being said, out of all due respect I say: I am glad I had this conversation with you, and to that I am sorry for being snippy.

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Originally Posted by Wise6

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SCH dps not solely because of pet, pet heal usually not enough in most case as PVPer have improved and basically know how to damage now. This not like most MMO where balance is build around class synergy because this game have no class synergy in formula.

When build on individual balance, removal of stance is most logical when compare to reduce fairy healing.

FL can be party type of PVP zone but balance changes done by class and category.

can someone please help me? my scholar is missing fester and my eos doesn't seem to have enkindle T_T

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

can someone please help me? my scholar is missing fester and my eos doesn't seem to have enkindle T_T

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http://i60.tinypic.com/xdhwns.png

Yes, you really can't compare PvE and PvP encounters.

That asside, it was a fact that Healers (SCH in particular) were able to get a decent damage output during a Frontlines battle, to the point where their inpact on the outcome was huge.
They had too much "weight". To be able to handle an enemy healer, you had to consider both its healing skills, and its DD ones. It was too much for a class which already had the first priority to focus in PvP.

The proof is: they still are the main focus to take down as soon as possible. So, yeah, they really don't need to be able to do "decent" damage.

Why is it always bad players that always get the good end of the stick ?

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Out of all the games I've played. I have never seen people complain about healers defending themselves. Let alone, blindly ignore how easy it is to actually interrupt a healers cast..if you wanna talk about balance. You better talk about that as well. But I guess it's pointless now since people got what they want and basically handicapped healers.

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Me neither. In all the other mmos where heals are currently dpsin, hell even Archeage atm, its considered to be normal.

But hey, FF XIV bro. They even nerfed AK twice. #lel

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

Why is it always bad players that always get the good end of the stick ?



Me neither. In all the other mmos where heals are currently dpsin, hell even Archeage atm, its considered to be normal.

But hey, FF XIV bro. They even nerfed AK twice. #lel

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It's normal for healers to be able to fend for themselves. It's not normal for healers to be able to fend against a light party alone and match or even out dps a dps class.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's normal for healers to be able to fend for themselves. It's not normal for healers to be able to fend against a light party alone and match or even out dps a dps class.

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It is normal. Since Age of Conan / Aion. Ever pvp'd before ? Could farm people on the 3 different healing classes in AoC, same for the priest / chanter in Aion, same in Darkfall and same in Mortal Online.

One of the healers in Age of Conan actually do damage whenever hes healing on top of havin like the naughtiest debuffs for your magic classes + absolutely sick aoes.

And its all direct damage. You could also kill a lot of peeps while beein a healer in Daoc. Yeah, its that old.

Even Guild Wars 2 you could heal a lot with a water ele and still deal kinda retarded amount of damage.


So yeah I mean, hybrid healing gameplay is how it is. How it should be. Now that they removed cleric I'm sorry but its just so dull I stopped to pvp altogether since I find the dps role to be awfully boring.

Bad players are bad. Bad players claimin that healers shouldn't dps are even more laughable than just beein bad.


No knowledge and not willin to adapt =/= op class

Instead of removing cleric stance they should have removed divine breath, at least in frontlines. Hard enough to kill parties with 3 or more whms (pug party obviously) without them rotating weakness free insta raises. Shouldnt be rewarding people who die with weakness free raises anyway. I play whm in frontline (whenever my team is short on heals) and even I think that ability is bs.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Instead of removing cleric stance they should have removed divine breath, at least in frontlines. Hard enough to kill parties with 3 or more whms (pug party obviously) without them rotating weakness free insta raises. Shouldnt be rewarding people who die with weakness free raises anyway. I play whm in frontline (whenever my team is short on heals) and even I think that ability is bs.

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There were a lot of ways SE could have balanced it out better, this was just the quickest (and most lazy) way to do it.