So votekick >abuse< is practically allowed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niwashi

And that's the very attitude that should get people banned from the game. There are tools in place for dealing with situations where the group cannot complete the content, or even where you simply don't want to complete it with that group. SNIP

---

It's not the type of attitude that is the hindrance. It's the people who aren't putting forth any effort to improve themselves. I can recall a time in Halitali hard where a bard was only using straight shot. I asked kindly if they'd use dots + buffs because it wasn't fair for the whole party giving their all. They ignored first time, asked again, they got angry and said something along the lines of don't tell me how to play (that was the last thing they got to say before i vote kicked.)

Sometimes people need to be kicked for being super bad, end of story.

I remember I had a pgl in normal halatali that would only spam touch of death. By that time I was pretty used to 3 manning all the lower end content so I just let it slide. I also thought it was funny cuz I bet that guy was wondering why the enemy wasn't dying instantly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niwashi

It's NOT what vote-kick is for.

---

Do you work for SE? If not, what makes you think you can decide how this tool can be used? What makes you think your word weights more than a GM's, who already explained their criteria of when it's not okay to vote kick? Why should a party restart a whole dungeon just because one person decided that they don't care about your help and you shouldn't tell them how to play?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niwashi

There are tools in place for dealing with situations where the group cannot complete the content, or even where you simply don't want to complete it with that group. That's what Leave and Vote Abandon are for.

---

I'm sorry, but if three people are able and willing to complete the content but cannot because one person is holding them back for whatever reason, why should those three players be forced to leave or vote abandon?

Just the other day I was helping an FC mate through story mode Garuda. It was me, said person (who had done the fight on another server and knew how it went), another person from our FC, and a healer who was running it for the first time. We explained the fight to the healer, offered to answer their questions, and were prepared for a few wipes. But a few wipes turned into nearly a dozen because this person just did not learn the mechanics no matter how many times we explained it to them, marked where they should be standing, etc. We eventually ran out of time without managing to complete the fight all because of that one person.

We were nice and didn't kick them, but we would have been more than justified in doing so. They were the sole reason we were unable to complete the duty-- when we got a friend to run it with us, we one-shotted it.

Late to the thread but just stopping in to add my opinion.

If there are going to be alternate reasons than those listed in the game for vote dismissing people, then I would really like to see those reasons added to the game. "Harassment," just doesn't fit for some things.
I would at least like to have options such as "Disruptive behaviour," added. That alone could cover a lot more, and would make more sense in some cases.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

I'm sorry, but if three people are able and willing to complete the content but cannot because one person is holding them back for whatever reason, why should those three players be forced to leave or vote abandon?

---

Yes, because it's your own fault for using Duty Finder instead of a strict Party Finder if you are that obsessed with getting a clear (or multiple clears.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nabiri

Late to the thread but just stopping in to add my opinion.

If there are going to be alternate reasons than those listed in the game for vote dismissing people, then I would really like to see those reasons added to the game. "Harassment," just doesn't fit for some things.
I would at least like to have options such as "Disruptive behaviour," added. That alone could cover a lot more, and would make more sense in some cases.

---

I agree, it makes no sense they don't add extra options or a text box for a custom reason.

What's the difference between harassment and disruptive behavior?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nabiri

Late to the thread but just stopping in to add my opinion.

If there are going to be alternate reasons than those listed in the game for vote dismissing people, then I would really like to see those reasons added to the game. "Harassment," just doesn't fit for some things.
I would at least like to have options such as "Disruptive behaviour," added. That alone could cover a lot more, and would make more sense in some cases.

---

I like the "disruptive behavior" idea, or if they just add in "differences in playstyle", but with a disclaimer that differences in playstyle for df wouldn't cover unrealistic expectations of the other party members' gear or experience. Or something of that sort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

Yes, because it's your own fault for using Duty Finder instead of a strict Party Finder if you are that obsessed with getting a clear (or multiple clears.)

---

It was Garuda Normal, not Garuda EX. People shouldn't have to use PF to find players who are competent enough to be able to beat a required story battle in 90 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

Yes, because it's your own fault for using Duty Finder instead of a strict Party Finder if you are that obsessed with getting a clear (or multiple clears.)

---

No, entering DF means you accept the responsibility to fulfill your job role. If you aren't doing that, you deserve to be kicked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobbinT

There's also a typo on that GM respond:

"categorisation"? lol

Also, mind posting that last message GM mentioned on that reply? Omitting player names ofc.

---

That is the correct spelling for it outside the US.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noshpan

So by that logic, whenever I'm in DF, I should be forced to deal with a tank that doesn't use their emnity-producing skills such as Provoke, Flash and Overpower? And all that they are doing is just going through their combo because it's all shiny? Or, should the party have to be stuck with a healer who doesn't heal? Or that damage dealer that does nothing but auto-attack? What if I've got a tank-bot or heal-bot? They don't perform effectively, but according to your logic I should have to be stuck with them. Yeah, no thanks. While abuses of the vote kick system can, does, and will happen, I would rather have it for the greater good.

---

no, YOU can leave ...pretty simple as that

Mei

Or he can just kick the baddie and finish the run normally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coatl

Or he can just kick the baddie and finish the run normally.

---

that happens rarely, most of the time if not each time, you kick the guy and stand there counting the sheeps just before everybody abandons because nobody is coming in or agin not the one you want and paff kick the guy again...how is that more productive I wonder

But people prefer to point fingers and define someone else as the culprit then take their responsability and leave if they dont like something

Mei

We have had some pretty horrible players and I always try to help them out but you get those who just refuse to respond or even acknowledge you are talking to them. They just stay mysteriously silent. Tanks who wont put up shield oath, flash or rotate thru mobs, healers that just stand there doing nothing (esp in low lvls with sch who just puts eos near the tank and doesn't even draw their weapon), smn who only use pets to attack, drg/nin/mnk/brd who just auto attack and blm who just use up their mp and wait for it to come back without ice umbrals. These ppl deserve to be kicked. You need to pull your weight in an instance and when one person on the team doesn't, well you are dismissed. Just like in real life, you will be fired.

Some new players are grateful for advice and I am more than willing to help them thru, take some extra time in a dungeon to help them learn. Its what the community should do. But if you just want to auto-pilot cause you are doing other things or are just plain lazy, that's a different story and you deserve das boot. Plus lets not forget the infinite bots out there.

What really grinds my gears are the ppl who duo/triobox, and do so terribly, in dungeons. And most the time its a tank/healer combo but when you already wait in queue for 30-45 mins the last thing you want is a 30 minute lock out and another 30 minute queue. So usually you just struggle thru, die 10 times and have the clock nearly run out.

There's a bit of hypocrisy and confusion here. If SE keeps saying that vote-kicking is between players, why even have those 4 options as to why you are kicking this person? I've heard people complain saying they were kicked for whatever reason that doesn't match those 4 reasons given and SE is just like "Not our problem". If that's the case, why even have that little disclaimer on the bottom of the window that says vote-kick abuse is a punishable act since it's clear SE doesn't get involved with vote-kicks, they obviously aren't gonna punish people for abusing it. It's all very confusing and SE is giving out a bunch of mixed signals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucke

... since it's clear SE doesn't get involved with vote-kicks...

---

You have any evidence to back up that claim? SE does get involved with vote kick abuses There is nothing confusing about that. There are players that come on this forums to put up a bunch of smoke and mirrors trying to confuse people, but don't believe for 1 minute that the GMs are turning a blind eye to abuse. They have the data, and if enough player report the same troll abusing vote kicks, they will sort that signal out from the noise and investigate and then take action. They may not be able to punish every vote kick abuse, just like cops can't stop every shoplifter, but sooner or later, the criminal will be trip up and be nailed.

The vote kick abuser want to demoralize other players here on the forum in hope that the vast majority would become silent, passive, and unwillingly complicit, and so they will continue to spread the misinformation so they can get away with their bad behavior more easily.

I have never been kicked and I have used the DF a lot. what exactly are you guys even doing? all you have to do is keep your head down and play somewhat competently and it won't happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Yay

---

I'm going by the canned responses I and others get when we report potential abuse kicks and even what the GMs themselves say in this and other threads. Basically that they don't wanna get involved with player disputes. I'd call vote-kick abuse a player dispute wouldn't you? SE just holds their hands up and says "Whoa guys, this is between you players. I don't wanna get involved". I agree they have all that info I would think, they just don't seem to want to act on it. Though I could be wrong, I've never heard of anyone getting banned for abusing the feature.

I've been vote-kicked for not doing a speedrun. It was my second time in the dungeon and I was tank. Didn't matter. That's not a valid reason for vote-kick. I wasn't harassing anyone for not doing a speedrun, I wasn't comfortable with it as I was still learning the dungeon. I certainly wasn't AFK obviously, nor was I cheating. I was most certainly online as well. I want to see some stories of people actually getting punished for vote-kick abuse. I've never seen it happen, but that doesn't mean it doesn't. If I see players actually get banned for it, I'll change my tune.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucke

..If I see players actually get banned for it, I'll change my tune.

---

Well that is hard to see now. Given how players on the DF are very likely to be from a different server. You can not even blacklist them. And if they get banned, do you think they would come to forums complain about their punishment, and cry about their shame? What they would do instead is come here and cry about how everyone else in their group is bad, don't take advice, slowing everyone else down and deserve to be kicked, and you see plenty of posts like that. They will never admit to being vote kicked, but instead insult everyone else every chance they get.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeiUshu

that happens rarely, most of the time if not each time, you kick the guy and stand there counting the sheeps just before everybody abandons because nobody is coming in or agin not the one you want and paff kick the guy again...how is that more productive I wonder

---

"Happens rarely"

"most of the time"

Isn't that just anecdotal evidence? Want to know my anecdotal evidence? Most people get justified kicks, unjustified kicks happen rarely, most of the time the party gets a replacement right away.

So is your anecdotal evidence right and mine is wrong?

Did you read the anecdotal evidence a few posts earlier of that person who ran out of time in Garuda story mode, do you consider being unable to progress "more productive"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucke

There's a bit of hypocrisy and confusion here. If SE keeps saying that vote-kicking is between players, why even have those 4 options as to why you are kicking this person? I've heard people complain saying they were kicked for whatever reason that doesn't match those 4 reasons given and SE is just like "Not our problem". If that's the case, why even have that little disclaimer on the bottom of the window that says vote-kick abuse is a punishable act since it's clear SE doesn't get involved with vote-kicks, they obviously aren't gonna punish people for abusing it. It's all very confusing and SE is giving out a bunch of mixed signals.

---

I don't see the confusion, it says abusing the tool is punishable and they already said what they consider abuse, using it for griefing.

You guys just don't want to accept that you don't decide the rules and that you cannot force a party to bend to the will of one person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alukah

I don't see the confusion, it says abusing the tool is punishable and they already said what they consider abuse, using it for griefing.

---

They say it's punishable but I've never seen them act on it. That's the confusion. Maybe they do, I personally have never met/seen/heard of anyone being punished for abusing the feature. They say they'll do it, but don't so...do they or don't they? If they say they act on griefing and show cases of it happening, then that's a good deterrence for people to think "Maybe I shouldn't grief this person because I know SE will put money where their mouth is".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucke

They say it's punishable but I've never seen them act on it. That's the confusion.

---

Honestly at this point I believe they don't and never will. If for every person that was vote kicked for whatever reason submitted a petition. That would be a lot of petitions going through daily. If it were me sitting there and having to sort out which is considered griefing, what isn't griefing, who's innocent, who's trolling, was it the players fault or the parties fault. I'd eventually give up reading petitions over vote kicking too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aylis

.... I'd eventually give up reading petitions....

---

Imagine all the cops took an attitude like that, criminals would run free. You may not care, but do NOT mistake it for SE or the GMs not caring. They do what they can given their human limitations. They will not show you what they do other than their periodic ban wave announcements. In addition to protecting individual privacy/confidentiality, it makes sense, so players don't get to try to game the GMs and use them to troll other players causing even more problems.

Iv act had a GM chat with me about getting vote kick after i file a complaint so the GMs do look into it and stuff but there not going to say heyyyyyy we ban them for you haha troll

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ellatrix

No, entering DF means you accept the responsibility to fulfill your job role. If you aren't doing that, you deserve to be kicked.

---

Where is this stated in the game or the TOS? Where's my "player is a baddie" kick option?

Oh right, nowhere.

Nobody owes you anything in DF, other than a non-disruptive and harassment-free play experience.

I hear constant "should this" and "should that" from the playerbase regarding how DF, a public tool with clear rules set by the developers, should be used, often for their own personal convenience or pleasure. Sounds like the same entitlement issue hardcore players accuse 'casuals' of having.

Not performing your job function is disruptive.

Thanks for agreeing with me!

If someone is really bad or annoying I leave and find something better to do.

...all this stems from the simple fact that SE doesn't seem to want any sort of responsibility in this question. All they should do is pick a side: either put it down that the Duty Finder is random and anyone going there is to accept whatever situation they find themselves in, or that nobody's obligated to go through with anything in any dungeon. Former would abolish the "different playstyle" nonsense, obviously; in the case of the latter, they should just not punish people abandoning duty. That's it. But instead, we just have the doors open on both sides, so we're neither in, nor out. It's obviously not been good for so long it's baffling they still won't change that (lack of) policy. :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeiUshu

vote kick ban shouldnt be allowed in any DF instances, only PTs should be allowed to ban and even them with the true reasons. Although I am against it as a tool de per se.

Mei

---

duty roulette Low.
Quarn.
healer lv 35 with lv1 lalafell gear equipped
he stood still at the entrance of the dungeon, without even a word.


please tell me again how vote kick should not exist in DF.

this would be classified as disturbing attitude and NOT harrassement, vote kick is existing for this reason

My grief is with the misuse of the kick vote, not when it is use approprietadly, I am against it, in my opinion should not exist, nor should the penalty exist, people should be free to go if they want to end of story BUT what is NOT acceptable is to kick people for reasons that arent one.


If you cant see the different and understand when to use what and why, then I am afraid I will requestion your age, your maturity and ability to play with others.

You make a decision your decision must be thought out, not just ...*oh let gets rid of him because we have a friend that we want in*....and kick the guy with *harrassement* as a reason just to get rid of him...

The tool is for mature people that understand the use of it and not for anyone to abuse rather then use as they see fit....your time is important then take your responsability and leave...or use kick since we have that stupid tool WHEN is approriate your example is approriate although I would have still voted *no* since after 10mn inactivity he would be kicked anyway, BUT not with the reason of *harrassement* just for disturbing the game.

I am agaisnt this, this tool shouldnt exist. Yet since they put it in place, SE shoudl also take their responsabilities and enforce sanctions against misuse of it because the disruption of being kicked for no reasons is equally as bad as having to put up with disruptive true disruptive attitude. As long as SE doesnt sanction misuse chaos is allowed and abuse too and people feel entitled to dispose of other people's time as they see fit even without true grounds for it. If your time is important and dont like where you are, just leave. Although if it was for me, those that accept to enter a dungeon and leave because they dont like it, should be sanctioned as well, but this is me I dont expect others to agree with this.

I am against this I will repeat it again but not because the tool is bad because people are bad and NOT mature enough to understand the real use that should be done of such, which then makes it a bad tool

Mei

If you are getting kicked often there's probably a reason.

Vote kick was a feature asked for by the players, which I agree with and use some what frequently - once or twice a week maybe - to get rid of trolls or people that just simply wanted to get carried without doing a thing.

I have yet been vote kicked while being present since the introduction of vote abandon, though I have probably been kicked a few times when my internet died on me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chihaya

If you are getting kicked often there's probably a reason.

Vote kick was a feature asked for by the players, which I agree with and use some what frequently - once or twice a week maybe - to get rid of trolls or people that just simply wanted to get carried without doing a thing.

I have yet been vote kicked while being present since the introduction of vote abandon, though I have probably been kicked a few times when my internet died on me.

---

who said I am being kicked often?....you jump to conclusion rather fast, just beause someone is against something doesnt mean he or she is at the receiving end right ?.

didnt know there was a reason for kicking people that want to be carried without in your opinion doing a thing?...you are the reason why I am against the kick vote button.

Mei

well, queueing with only lv1 gear and standing still for the entire time, for me, IT IS harassement.

was he trolling? was he expecting to gain exp point without doing nothing? who knows.
but I spent half an hour waiting for the duty to start, I'm not gonna spend time waiting again, because you think you are funny.

clearly it depends on how people use the vote kick... but you can't expect every player to have a brain and to use it.
just look at all the "summoner is ugly" "atma sucks" etc. thread in the forums xD

Quote:

---

didnt know there was a reason for kicking people that want to be carried without in your opinion doing a thing?...you are the reason why I am against the kick vote button.

---

well... if you continue to get hit by plumes, or generally derping on the same boss mechanic, repeatedly... yes, you deserve a vote kick.
especially if you join a "exp only/farm party/going for the kill/know the strat" and you actually can't even stay alive till titan's heart. for example D:

Didn't say I was talking to YOU. You are sure too self conscious.

Just stating that the use of vote kick outweighs the abuse, abuse from what I have seen is relatively rare - if a person continuously get vote kicked, it is probably a problem with them instead.

And yea, I'll kick people if they just want to get carried - including getting locked out of fights on purpose - extensive AFKs - failing mechanics and causing repeated wipes when other players explain over and over what to do.

http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

Different playstyle - Deal with it.

I don't run duties for you while you do nothing. If you want to participate and have basic hand-eye coordinations/motor skills, I probably won't kick you. But if you want to troll me and have me do everything for you - gtfo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Not performing your job function is disruptive.

Thanks for agreeing with me!

---

Knowing I'm playing with such a self-entitled and rude player is disruptive, so I'll be sure to vote dismiss you on sight.

Do you really want to continue this slippery slope of 'all players must play how I want or they are being disruptive I am entitled to votekick them in DF?'

Of course not! And thank god for both of us that's not how the TOS works. Disruption of play must be a willful and deliberate activity. This has actually been discussed several times in old hunt threads. A player must intend to disrupt your play, they cannot simply do so because you decided their threat generation wasn't good enough or they didn't parse high enough on a (technically even more TOS-violating) meter, or because they somehow lack the skill to feed you another easy clear. Conversely, if I votekick you and you aren't willfully disrupting me, I am willfully disrupting you by misusing the vote dismiss function. Any sane interpretation of the TOS would read this way.

Frankly, the 'difference in playstyle' screenshot is trash evidence of how Vote Dismiss is interpreted by the GM team. We have no context for what the 'difference' actually was other than a sobstory report of players being mean to someone for a nebulously given reason, and it could have been anything from refusing to speedrun as a properly tank to being that jackhole who shows up to a dungeon in a snowman suit unglamoured and acts like he's entitled to a run. None of these are 'failing to perform a role'. They are willfully disrupting play by choosing not to, which is different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Imagine all the cops took an attitude like that, criminals would run free..

---

You really don't watch much of the news do you? lol

ANYWAY fine, I'll bite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NyarukoW

You may not care, but do NOT mistake it for SE or the GMs not caring.

---

It doesn't take much effort to you know? look around and see things. The same complaints going on over and over over and nothing is changing. Players getting kicked for refusing to skip cut scenes, players getting kicked because they don't wish to speed run, players getting kicked because their rotations ain't up to par to the group. Who's trolling, who isn't trolling. Oh no this small party early pulled an A rank hunt mob and this other party reset it, blah blah blah and every petition under the sun.

If players were civil
If players just met in the middle.
If players didn't troll.
If players would listen and not get defensive over advice.

Then this all wouldn't be a problem now would it? The fact its STILL going on raises questions don't cha think? Maybe that old ban hammer isn't as heavy as people may think. Its not a question of if I care, its a question of how many complaints of stolen sweet rolls the GM's can tolerate.

The community is why we can't have nice things.

Really glad to see that this community is about as dull as a sack of hammers. The clearest solution is to present this to SE, and I'm going to be doing so.

1.) "Different playstyles" Will not hold up if there is no prior complaints during the dungeon run. This means they can't just up and kick you.
2.) Viewing ingame cutscenes during dungeons is not a kickable offense, and anyone saying otherwise can shove off.
3.) Stating what item they'd like to get, of course if they put their time in, they have every right as a player to get said item, it's a dungeon in an MMO after all, players can't play god and decide who gets what, there's a roll system for a reason and people seem to forget that when they think they can swing their e-peen. (I'm gonna get a lot of flak from the FC people for this one, which is why I'm saying this: This is in the event of DF runs, not an organized FC run.)
4.) Questioning a playstyle and getting kicked when someone doesn't like how you think. (I've been booted so many times when people got mad at me for telling them to run away from the worm in Cutter's Cry when he gets the whirlpool move going, and they say it's unavoidable.)

^ These above are NOT legitimate reasons for a vote kick, and anyone booting on those grounds should be punished in my opinion. That GM is insanely lazy and needs to be talked to by his supervisor, hell all of the GM's need to since people keep submitting complaints on the bot armies on servers and yet GM's won't take action despite the fact that these are definite botters.

Now some legitimate reasons for vote/kick include:

1.) When your playstyle hinders the dungeon to the point that you're keeping it from moving forward.
2.) Racial/Offensive language.
3.) Harassment of players.
4.) Cheating.
5.) AFK'ing for more than 3 minutes.
6.) Being severely behind on equipment or have no knowledge of how to do the basics of your job.

The rules are much more cut and dry as someone thinks.

A Dragoon was kicked from coil turn 1 for unintentionally causing 2 wipes because they were new and nobody bothered to explain the fight to them, kick vote initiated by a raging, arrogant and rude tank.

I talked to a GM about it. Not considered votekick abuse. Examples of vote kick abuse: Kicking people before loot drops to intentionally keep them from getting it, or kicking people before the final boss to intentionally keep them from getting the dungeon clear.

Kicking people for being new? Fair game - but it shouldn't be, the rules need some looking at.