Turn 2 "easy mode", disables every mechanic in the fight

So an enrage that makes a fight easier. Awesome game design there.

Wow, DPS in that video is incredibly slow and the person recording missed a Fire III. It may be "easier" like some people have already mentioned, but it's certainly not faster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayasee

Wow, DPS in that video is incredibly slow and the person recording missed a Fire III. It may be "easier" like some people have already mentioned, but it's certainly not faster.

---

Why is FFXIV community so obsessed with speed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Why is FFXIV community so obsessed with speed?

---

Gotta go fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Why is FFXIV community so obsessed with speed?

---

So that they can tell the world about how there's nothing left for them to do in FFXIV for the rest of the week.

Nothing wrong with going slower, if you're guaranteed to kill it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by juniglee

Nothing wrong with going slower, if you're guaranteed to kill it.

---

You see nothing wrong with an enrage that makes the fight easier?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wizhard

You see nothing wrong with an enrage that makes the fight easier?

---

As has already been mentioned, your healers have to be pretty geared to even attempt this with 2 healers, or you give up a tank and put in an extra healer. If your party has 1 bard, they would most likely have to chug a Mega Ether or something to recover some mana for Mage's Ballad upkeep too. Either way, I'm all for different ways of fighting a fight. I'm sure you aren't meant to do Titan HM with one tank either, but people form 1 tank/4 dps/3 healers or 1 tank/5 dps/2 healer parties so it gives them an easier time.

If anything, the only positive influence I can see it having is it allows for more flexible team comps. People will be less shoehorned into the 2 PLD/2 BRD/1 caster/1 melee/1 WHM/1 SCH set up for T2. Before anyone says that you can do it with 1 Bard too, the party I mentioned has generally been accepted as the "optimal" team comp for T2. People are not open to change, and as long as they continue believing that that party is the best set up, they will continue to shaft melees in favour of bards (this is based on the fact that I see more melee DPS looking for Coil pug parties in Wineport on my server, than any other DPS class), and this creates a sort of exclusivity - similar to how I don't like melees, Warriors, or Summoners getting shafted for WP speedruns (not that I like speedruns anyway) in favour of Bards and Black Mages.

Just this second cleared turn 2 using this method - it was fun! :D (did it with 1 tank, 3 healers and 2 bards and it was a PUG)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by juniglee

As has already been mentioned, your healers have to be pretty geared to even attempt this with 2 healers, or you give up a tank and put in an extra healer. If your party has 1 bard, they would most likely have to chug a Mega Ether or something to recover some mana for Mage's Ballad upkeep too. Either way, I'm all for different ways of fighting a fight. I'm sure you aren't meant to do Titan HM with one tank either, but people form 1 tank/4 dps/3 healers or 1 tank/5 dps/2 healer parties so it gives them an easier time.

---

This does not answer my question however. Theres an ENRAGE that makes a fight EASIER. Dont you see the absurdity of that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wizhard

This does not answer my question however. Theres an ENRAGE that makes a fight EASIER. Dont you see the absurdity of that?

---

You mean an irregular party composition designed to clear Enrage can get past Enrage more easily than the regular party compositions? Say it aint so!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wizhard

This does not answer my question however. Theres an ENRAGE that makes a fight EASIER. Dont you see the absurdity of that?

---

Why are you assuming it's an enrage made to kill you? If it were one, ADS would continue attacking just like the Dreadnoughts and the Tonberry King do.

I've done it today, it just goes from an "attention check" to a "gear check". Also, killing the nodes and dealing with ADS with only one tank before it finishes charging is much harder. The nodes alone are half of the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wizhard

This does not answer my question however. Theres an ENRAGE that makes a fight EASIER. Dont you see the absurdity of that?

---

I don't see a problem with it. There is no distinction between the word enrage and non-enrage - I simply see it as "different mechanics" and "different requirements to clear".

This isn't easier, its just another strategy. Doing normal way is not a piece of cake, the only issue is dodging and silencing, if you don't have team speak and you suffer lag, the normal way is pretty damn near impossible for most party and especially pugs. This is just an alternative, you need decent healers for it and its still quite the DPS race..

It sacrificed mechanics for DPS/Healing race, both same difficulty imo.

Really hope it is not patched.

Another good reason to do this strategy is it prepares you for turn 4, especially the final part of turn 4 even though that is a lot easier if you get to that stage, but most of turn 4 is dps race and this strategy in turn 2 can defiantly help you get used to that as you have to kill ADS before healers run out of MP, with average ivl70 pt setup, this is pretty close. Every GCD action counts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by viion

Doing normal way is piece of cake
the normal way is pretty damn near impossible for most party and especially pugs

---

Im confused.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wizhard

Im confused.

---

wups, sleepy, missed a "not" lol!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tadacho

To those that say "you are gimping yourself for future turns," know that in a few months time, we will all - even you - be facerolling Twintania using some as-of-yet undiscovered zerg strat.

---

Twintania won't be facerolled until more turns of coil comes out, and only then is 1-5 "outdated" content. If you have no aspirations of clearing T5 as it stands right now that's fine but don't speak for the whole player base.

As already pointed out the faceroll is actually slower than the vanilla strat, so it serves no purpose other than making the fight easier mechanics wise and it's really stupid to compare it to WP runs. If you want to compare coil to WP compare turn 3 which most people run though (myself included) as there is no point to fighting the enemies. For people who are mastering the T5 mechanics the idea of having to skip mechanics on ADS is just really sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Why is FFXIV community so obsessed with speed?

---

because they love crying when they have finished the weekly content after 2hours and have nothing else to do

Either you are the guy who posted first on REDDIT or you just took the content, shoot a video and gave like absolutely no Credit??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tadacho

Not all enrages are designed to wipe a party. http://wowpedia.org/Enrage_(mechanic) This could be considered a Hard Frenzy, as opposed to Enrage, which simply applies extra stress to healing in an attempt to end the fight for groups that cannot handle it.

---

It's basically a "Soft Enrage," with the end of the fight coming when your healers run out of mana or drop.

I want to add something that many people forget.
There are Hard Enrages and Soft Enrages.

Hard Enrages is whatever you do - you will die on a specific time of moment.
Soft enrages are those that make the fight much more difficult (aka with 2 healers very very difficult) but still survivable.
If you decide to take 3 healers and 1 tank, you make the first mini bosses more difficult and easier the soft enrage.

THerefore this boss is working as intented, it has a soft enrage instead of a hard enrage.

Who exactly gets to deem this 'enrage'? I'm pretty sure this method wasn't envisioned by SE, but the track record pretty much makes this ok.

If people entered turn 2 with this method before we all figured out we could do with 2 tanks and swap stacks and pass rot around would people still be complaining? "omg we can speed run turn two and don't have to wait for the 62 minute mark to fight it! 10 minute clear!!"

It's different but within the mechanics of the game, deal. I love there's more than one way to do these instances:
Solo tank cad? Great it's been done and yoshi said its ok!
Run WP in 10 minutes? Have at it it's completely cool!
Wanna kill Titan with 3 healers and 1 tank? Wanna kill Titan with 3 tanks and 1 healer? It's been done and the game didn't die!!

Just deal people, if you wanna find another way to kill ads, fine... Do it and cope, stop the complaining finally, it seems never ending on these boards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Twintania won't be facerolled until more turns of coil comes out, and only then is 1-5 "outdated" content.

---

Hence "in a few months time".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

If you have no aspirations of clearing T5 as it stands right now that's fine but don't speak for the whole player base.

---

I have every intention and have already attempted. Practise what you preach and don't speak for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

it serves no purpose other than making the fight easier mechanics wise and it's really stupid to compare it to WP runs.

---

In a WP SR you skip mobs and lock them out of boss fights. Not only is this skipping mechanics but this is a more direct exploit than the idea of waiting for a boss enemy to enter its soft-enrage mode, which you are able to survive because you specifically created a party setup beforehand. That is not an exploit. It is a strategy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

If you want to compare coil to WP compare turn 3 which most people run though (myself included) as there is no point to fighting the enemies.

---

So again, skipping mechanics. You condone it here because, oh, you do it, but in turn 2 it's sad and pathetic because, oh, you didn't do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

For people who are mastering the T5 mechanics the idea of having to skip mechanics on ADS is just really sad.

---

Yeah, people tend to be butthurt when ezmode strats are discovered for content they had to do "the hard way".

I can keep hearing the opinion "ADS is so easy, it's kind of sad people have to skip them." Um, the trash mobs in WP are easy, but we still sleep and skip them. How sad and pathetic of us.

Everyone against this strategy is a hypocrite, assuming of course you haven't ever skipped a mob or locked something out or burnt Garuda down past her plume phase (hello, mechanic skipping!)

When did I ever say it's an exploit? I agree it isn't an exploit and you should check out my other posts on it. It's a soft-enrage which is 100% meant to be survivable for a limited time and logically if you are out of the gear and composition the fight is tuned for you can milk it even further.

I disagree on the strategy being useful, unlike WP speed-run routes. I really cannot give two hoots if something is done "legit" or not, but the enrage strat's only positive is that you don't have to deal with mechanics most people have on clockwork anyway, everything else is a negative. Don't confuse me with other posts.

Ugh like seriously, the only way a WP comparison makes sense if you're some weirdo who cares about the principal of doing mechanics. WP is a total joke and should be treated as such, coil is the only end game content at the moment. Like do you seriously believe people skip WP mechanics because it's too hard? It's not the same as T2 at all because the entire purpose of the strat in T2 is because the mechanics are hard. Get some perspective damn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

When did I ever say it's an exploit?

---

I didn't say you said it was an exploit. I said that locking out mobs in WP is essentially skipping mechanics, then added that it's also more of an exploit than this, which I would not consider an exploit, yet that is considered absolutely fine, no questions asked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

the enrage strat's only positive is that you don't have to deal with mechanics most people have on clockwork anyway, everything else is a negative.

---

I agree with you. Though I do think it's useful for groups with a weak link or struggling PUGs.

I don't care about the principal of skipping mechanics at all. I skip mobs and have used several other mechanic-skipping strats on other instances.

My posts are really in response to the discussion around here that a lot of people are putting out that they do care about skipping mechanics on Turn 2, but doing it everywhere else is okay. I'm not directing this at you, but I think it's a lot of hypocrisy.

If Squenix decides this was not intended, they'll patch it so ADS wipes the party on enrage. If they decide it's perfectly okay, then they'll leave it as is.

I can't imagine how a party which NEEDS to do this method to pass Turn 2 will ever pass Turn 4, but hey. They can at least go and look at the Elevator of Death.

I got really excited by this yesterday (I've been out the raiding loop for a while) and my FC were due to raid 1-4 last night, so I was like yeah! I'll suggest this! ... fast forward I completely forgot it and we absolutely sailed through it doing it the normal way. It's a cool method, but as discussed, you probably need to be geared up to the eyeballs for it, as well as it being really taxing on the healers. I mean if your group can do it, then by all means do, but I think the usual way is easier...

No MMORPG I know of ever asked players to define what an exploit is, and at any rate whether you call it an unintended mechanism or an exploit really doesn't matter because you have no rights in a MMORPG, so if SE wants to do something about this it doesn't matter what players think to begin with. An enrage of any kind is meant to kill your party in a very short time (like under 10 seconds). If they do not it just means whoever designed it was dumb. But since no dev is going to say, "We're too dumb to figure out how to make a boss automatically kill everyone' you instead get this standard spin of 'players are creative!' to save face.

But if history is any indication, it'd take at least 3 months before this gets fixed even if you start bumping it every day, especially given this is a fairly trivial issue compared to the other things SE ought to be working on.

I wonder how long itr will take before the Dev team said that it was not what they planned then Adjust ADS in the Next patch or something..

As far as I am concern it is not a exploit but I feel that that this is out and in the air that it might get changed to where you can't do this.

EDIT: At the same time they might not adjusted as you have to be well geared to pulled this win out, so who knows. :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tadacho

So again, skipping mechanics. You condone it here because, oh, you do it, but in turn 2 it's sad and pathetic because, oh, you didn't do it.

---

Just to point something out, a forum moderator said it was not an exploit to lock out the enemies via sleep etc in WP. You can probably find the thread with the search feature.

I just would wait until they do a similar thing for this before doing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tadacho

So again, skipping mechanics. You condone it here because, oh, you do it, but in turn 2 it's sad and pathetic because, oh, you didn't do it.



Yeah, people tend to be butthurt when ezmode strats are discovered for content they had to do "the hard way".

I can keep hearing the opinion "ADS is so easy, it's kind of sad people have to skip them." Um, the trash mobs in WP are easy, but we still sleep and skip them. How sad and pathetic of us.

Everyone against this strategy is a hypocrite, assuming of course you haven't ever skipped a mob or locked something out or burnt Garuda down past her plume phase (hello, mechanic skipping!)

---

You would have a valid point if skipping ADS's mechanics let you kill the fight faster. But as it stands you actually have to go out of your way to do so. I don't really care either way just pointing out the inconsistency in your examples.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noroi_Kisaragi

However, I would have to ask the forums. Would you consider this an exploit or not? What are your thoughts on this method and its utility?

---

Not an exploit but broken. The ADS enrage mechanic should function the same as the pulses on T4 and kill off the party shortly after. If you can heal through it then what's the point.

I don't think that is an exploit. it's just a strategy that fewer ppl has yet to discover. Destroying as many sector nodes as possible so the boss will be weakened to a point that the party can endure long enough to down it during enrage mode. It's a strategy and it's working as intended IMHO.

A robot getting angry. Hmm.

Thanks. Thanks for bringing this up. There is always someone who has to call the cops on the party.

Out of curiosity, it's an exploit when people think for themselves and form their own strategies, but not an exploit when parties just run content like "yes men"? I don't get it. Do we really want to berate and stifle creativity and thinking outside of the box?

I neither condemn nor condone the rage timer, but it seems to me if Square wanted parties to wipe, they would have buffed it's damage long before now. The rage timer seems to be a queue to "hurry up and kill the mob lest you won't survive" mechanic and not so much a "Time's up! One shot time". It would take all of 5 minutes to change the AOE damage from around 1600 every 5 seconds to 9000 every 2 seconds. The way the AOE fundamentally works seems to lead it's working as it's intended:

The AOE waves come every 5 seconds
The AOE hits the party for 1600 damage (roughly)
You can lock abilities that ADS has access to by killing the nodes (Including Allagan Rot)
Killing the nodes grants ADS a significant defense or damage buff (kinda like a rage timer/DD Race/Healing Race right?)

Why not pulse the AOE every 2 seconds? 1 second? Why not buff the hits to an astronomical number if you're not supposed to live though at least some of it? Why fight lesser nodes at all and just have ADS have full access to all abilities with huge amounts of defense? Wouldn't that be the "dev intended" way?

ADS is a big check and balance. You can stop rot, but at the price of a massive buff it gets. You can rage ADS at the price of hard hitting AOE waves. What's the difference in letting it rage and killing all the nodes? What makes one an exploit but not the other? It's circular logic. If we want to look at the fight in a granular view, the fight is designed as risk/reward scenario and there is no difference between kill all nodes or letting it rage. It's a different path down the same road.

In the spirit of science and testing, My FC attempted to rage ADS. It's not as easy as people make it out to be. Gear, Skill, and most importantly, coordination are all in play. We only attempted it once more for fun than anything else but it seemed to me that it isn't any less viable than a standard rot pass. You are simply trading the rot pass for a healing race. No different than if you chose to go left, right, or kill all the nodes on the way to ADS.

On the rage run by the way, we did wipe (I wasn't really paying attention, it was late and I was one of the White Mage's).

On a final thought, parties can't keep the rage going for prolonged amounts of time. Healers can't keep it up forever and the longer the fight lasts, the higher the ratio that someone will make a mistake, a Medica or Cure 3 will be missed, or MP will run out causing a wipe. It's not viable for everyone just like WP and AK speed runs aren't viable for under geared parties. It's just an alternate way to complete an instance. How can that be construed as wrong?

I did t2 enrage mode today in a pug group. I was playing as whm with only relic +0 and full dl. No more than 2 players had twinania level gear. Most were just having a few ilvl90. We won at 2 try, without any voice chat.

In modern MMORPG, 'hurry up' means you have about 5 seconds before you wipe. Due to poorly constructed resource systems, virtually every MMORPG has infinite healing resources which makes it impossible to consume healing resources to the point where they run out without the ability to do outrageous amount of damage. Often, outrageous means 'one hit kill' because anything less than that can often be healed through by good players. As long as players have practically infinite healing resources, enrage always needs to be instant kill to compensate. Devs generally way underestimate the ability of players to outlast any content that doesn't instanty kill you, but you'll never hear them admit they're too dumb to figure out how to kill players instantly (nuke for a billion damage does the trick) which is why instead we get all the politically correct PR spins about 'players come up with creative ways to win'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astarica

In modern MMORPG, 'hurry up' means you have about 5 seconds before you wipe. Due to poorly constructed resource systems, virtually every MMORPG has infinite healing resources which makes it impossible to consume healing resources to the point where they run out without the ability to do outrageous amount of damage. Often, outrageous means 'one hit kill' because anything less than that can often be healed through by good players. As long as players have practically infinite healing resources, enrage always needs to be instant kill to compensate. Devs generally way underestimate the ability of players to outlast any content that doesn't instanty kill you, but you'll never hear them admit they're too dumb to figure out how to kill players instantly (nuke for a billion damage does the trick) which is why instead we get all the politically correct PR spins about 'players come up with creative ways to win'.

---

This game does not have infinite healing resources. Not by a long shot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astarica

In modern MMORPG, 'hurry up' means you have about 5 seconds before you wipe. Due to poorly constructed resource systems, virtually every MMORPG has infinite healing resources which makes it impossible to consume healing resources to the point where they run out without the ability to do outrageous amount of damage. Often, outrageous means 'one hit kill' because anything less than that can often be healed through by good players. As long as players have practically infinite healing resources, enrage always needs to be instant kill to compensate. Devs generally way underestimate the ability of players to outlast any content that doesn't instanty kill you, but you'll never hear them admit they're too dumb to figure out how to kill players instantly (nuke for a billion damage does the trick) which is why instead we get all the politically correct PR spins about 'players come up with creative ways to win'.

---

Though the devs are human and make mistakes, It's hard to accept that they didn't know what they were doing when making the rage timer not one shot players. They are paid to come up with new ideas and anticipate strategies and work around people may find. They do this work for a living. That not just one, but multiple departments were that short sighted that they couldn't see people could rage it, survive for a relatively short amount of time, and win? If this is true, then some personnel need to be let go.

I was under the impression that the further you progressed in Turns, the more difficult it became (except Turn 3. I don't understand you Turn 3). If the rage timers were to operate the same in Turn 2 and Turn 4, wouldn't it be easier to use the same code? Copy/paste seems easier to do than writing the scripting for each differently. Why go through the extra work if it's supposed to be the same? Would most agree that Turn 1 is easier than Turns 4 and 5? Wouldn't that indicate that Turn 2's rage is working normally to have it weaker than 4's?

The argument that rage is an exploit can also be applied to any kind of speed run. I have enough gear/gear/<insert any 1337 noun you can come up with> that I can ignore some parts or mechanics of a fight, but I better not do that. Here, let me take off my my ilvl90 gear and put on all AK gear. Oh wait, that means I need multiple gear sets for events which is what I oh so hated about the despised Final Fantasy XI MMO. Please limit the gear that I have taken time to acquire to the point where I can only wear it for two Turns and around main cities. Isn't this the definition of "Double Standard"?

Isn't this what we don't want? Weren't people ready to burn down Square's HQ in the event they brought gear swapping or situational gear into play? Doesn't this defeat the purpose of a vertical gear system?

I don't understand why people care in the first place. It affects no one but the people doing it. They will eventually lower the difficulty of the first 5 turns anyway so who cares if people found a way to make it slightly easier (different would be a better term) than the norm. Exploit or no, do we really want to be the lemmings that just accept the way things are and start a war with anyone who thinks different than the status quo?

We don't need to sing their praises, but we should at least acknowledge that they formed their own original strategy and it worked. Something that none us thought to try.