Issues with Coil: Statics v. The Rest of Us

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Originally Posted by MisakiSatomi

I've said it again and again and i will say it once again. People have been beating Sastasha through turn 4 with df/pug. It won't be long until turn 5 also gets pugged.

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Yeah you can also pug titan but what are your odds? Are these all pugs or are they half pugs?

I'm no expert hardcore player but I beat turn 1.

I hope they add it to DF. Hardest part about turn 1 was finding a group who would even give me a chance.

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Originally Posted by Scratchs

I'm no expert hardcore player but I beat turn 1.

I hope they add it to DF. Hardest part about turn 1 was finding a group who would even give me a chance.

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Yeah, tbh turn 1-4 are super easy. The only real difficulty at this point in turn 4 is the lack in sufficient gear, making the dps checks absolute hell. Once people have enough ilv 80 and 90 gear, its going to be a cake walk.

WoW really ruined mmos forever. The whole DF system is an abomination. There is no social interaction anymore, you queue in DF and finish the runs without saying a word. Unless someone fails. Then you start raging or stay silent and quit.

No "time" for linkshells nor FCs, only DF grind and if it's too hard for DF it's obviously "broken". Talking to other people is a bother and finding friends online has become a "chore". This new generation of mmo players is horrible.

I have beaten Turn 1-4 every week for over a month now. I haven't had a FC in months.

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Originally Posted by Levanin

I've been lurking on these forums, for a very long time, but this thread has brought out the most face palm ever, this guy here, he gets it.

If there was a "loot lockout" I would force my FC to level a second character, gear them out, then run 7 alts and 1 main for coil, and do this 8x a week, and be geared for every class for everyone on their main in just a few weeks (depending on drops).

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Implying you can force people to do anything. Sounds like you're already taking an easy game way too seriously. This isn't 2002.

You're all conveniently ignoring the fact that adding coil to the DF does not, in any way, affect those of you with established groups. How about addressing the actual argument?

Every player has the potential to clear coil. Turns 1 to 4 are easy, it just requires coordination. Find some people and work on it, you're not gonna be able to just go in and beat it outright, it takes a little practice. You don't need any ilvl 90 gear to do 1-4 either.. Although most people have a few myth pieces by now.

Likely I'll be just another voice reiterating the same point, but may as well say it with another voice. From the OP:

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This has lead the pool of potential party members for those affiliate with still budding FCs to be laughably low, and has created a relatively static population of "haves" and "have-nots" when it comes to allagan drops.

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You see a problem where I do not.

The top end of the game needs to be challenging. Otherwise you lose the top players to boredom. Part of that challenge is getting the group to work together and learn together. The highest level of challenge in this regard cannot reasonably be met by any semi-random collection of individuals together for only a short time.

Those who can't make the cut need to realize that the top end of the game is not for them. Go enjoy the other parts of the game.

Not that I'm against DF being added to Coil/chimera/hydra mind you. It doesn't hurt the coil regulars (they won't use it), and it doesn't hurt others to have the option to go and fail endlessly if they want. It's just not a big deal whichever way. Other schemes the same way, as long as they do no harm.

Lock out's and restrictions to how often and how many times you can do content do not belong in pay to play MMO's, keep that garbage in free to play MMO's. I'm paying monthly, that means I should get access to all the content as many times as I want, restrict how fast I can gear if you really need to, make it so I only get loot once per week, but let me play the damn game as often as I want.

F2P MMO's are about restrictions, lock out's, and telling me how often and how much I can play, pay to play MMO's are NOT. This game is trying to be some horrible hybrid taking the worst of f2p(lock out timers, restrictions, telling us how much we can play and only letting us play X amount of hours per week) and worst of pay to play(monthly sub) and combining them into a new business model that screws you over while charging you money. Real nice SE.

I'm glad more people are finding an issue with this! I have a thread on it, though, and we should keep all our complaints in a single thread(like the JP do) to make it easier for SE to see our feedback:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ory-job-system

edit: I disagree with DF for coil, I don't think any end game content should be accessible through the duty finder, personally. I think it's fine for leveling content because as the game matures it's much more difficult to find people for low level dungeons, but it's too anti-social and anonymous to be used for actually challenging content. I would prefer if none of the level capped content could be done via duty finder, to force people to be more social, make friends, and find a FC/LS. This game already encourages you to be anti-social enough, we don't need even more incentive for that.

What needs to happen is letting us enter as much as we want but being locked out of loot more than once per week per turn or every two turns if they really want. I had multiple friends quit the game because I couldn't help them do coil. Not being able to help friends with content and forcing friends to find their own statics with randoms they don't know is a very unhealthy environment for everyone involved. I know Japanese feel the same way - I've read their forums and they keep complaining about how if you don't have a coil static already you're screwed and stuck with amateur players who don't know what they're doing, all the good players already have a static.

Let me help my friends out, and help anyone out with coil SE, let's not make this game a competition, let's make it a friendly game for EVERYONE. No one would be negatively impacted or harmed by letting me gear up and help friends, and before you mention "OMG PEOPLE WILL SELL COIL RUNS!", my group can ALREADY DO THAT, many can, and WHO CARES? How does someone BUYING GEAR negatively impact your playing experience or effect you AT ALL? It doesn't, stop shooting down good ideas that make the game a better experience and more fun for a LOT of people just because of some insane idea in your head, that literally wouldn't change our playing experience at all. Don't like the idea or need it? Doesn't matter, if this happened, and you didn't need it and kept with your static only, other people being able to run with friends and help friends wouldn't change your playstyle or gaming experience AT ALL. I'm really sick of people shooting down good ideas and fixes for some insane reason that doesn't negatively impact ANYONE in the slightest.

I don't consider people having family and work obligations a challenge.

A very challenging event and an event that I can do with everyone in my FC, without excluding anyone due to circumstances that neither of us can control, should not be mutually exclusive. I have no issue with them making the fights as challenging as they want as long as we don't have to split up our FC in order to do it.

Honestly if your FC has nothing left to do except for Coil, but you can't do it at all with your FC, there's really no reason to be considered a group and that just royally blows when you want to have any sort of camaraderie.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Lock out's and restrictions to how often and how many times you can do content do not belong in pay to play MMO's, keep that garbage in free to play MMO's. I'm paying monthly, that means I should get access to all the content as many times as I want, restrict how fast I can gear if you really need to, make it so I only get loot once per week, but let me play the damn game as often as I want.

F2P MMO's are about restrictions, lock out's, and telling me how often and how much I can play, pay to play MMO's are NOT. This game is trying to be some horrible hybrid taking the worst of f2p(lock out timers, restrictions, telling us how much we can play and only letting us play X amount of hours per week) and worst of pay to play(monthly sub) and combining them into a new business model that screws you over while charging you money. Real nice SE.

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From my experience its actually pretty common to have raid locks etc in subscription mmo's, developers cant produce content at the speed your going to consume it and this is one of many ways to slow you down

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Originally Posted by Zikh

WoW really ruined mmos forever. The whole DF system is an abomination. There is no social interaction anymore, you queue in DF and finish the runs without saying a word. Unless someone fails. Then you start raging or stay silent and quit.

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Yeh because shouting for hours on end to find that tank or healer is just the sort of "social" interaction we need.

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Originally Posted by GilbertLapine

I'm sorry to hear that you don't enjoy helping others. That's one of my favorite parts of the game: being social, meeting new people, and helping those in need. Nothing burns me more than seeing selfishness, apathy, elitism, and meanness in general.

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This comment right here is borderline selfish. Did it occur to you that some of us want to see other players earn end game rewards instead of being hand held through all content? You should not bash someone for not wanting to do charity work all day.

Ok im going to admit to not slogging through 14 pages of this. But I want to point out one thing. On Midgard we have 945 FC's. Nine hundred and freaking forty five. My FC is struggling like many others to fill spots for more than one Coil team. I really think the fact that there are 945 FC's on our server alone has something to do with this shortage of players. Here is the thing, linkshells were supposed to be the social channel, not Free Companies. Those were for raiding. If you cant get enough for coil maybe you should think about why. How many FC's does your server have? Do all those FC's need to be there? Especially the social ones? No. Again this is what linkshells are for. The problem is not being able to do Coil in DF, the problem is everyone and their brother thinks they need a FC for themselves instead of a LS. Average FC size on our server? 7-12. See the problem?

Yeah because making an organization and eventually a company house with people I actually like to spend time with is insane :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Yurikitty

Ok im going to admit to not slogging through 14 pages of this. But I want to point out one thing. On Midgard we have 945 FC's. Nine hundred and freaking forty five. My FC is struggling like many others to fill spots for more than one Coil team. I really think the fact that there are 945 FC's on our server alone has something to do with this shortage of players. Here is the thing, linkshells were supposed to be the social channel, not Free Companies. Those were for raiding. If you cant get enough for coil maybe you should think about why. How many FC's does your server have? Do all those FC's need to be there? Especially the social ones? No. Again this is what linkshells are for. The problem is not being able to do Coil in DF, the problem is everyone and their brother thinks they need a FC for themselves instead of a LS. Average FC size on our server? 7-12. See the problem?

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Liked and TOTALLY AGREE

I don't like playing with a gigantic guild/FC of people. Never have, never will. I like playing with a small group of ~10 friends.

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Originally Posted by Yurikitty

Ok im going to admit to not slogging through 14 pages of this. But I want to point out one thing. On Midgard we have 945 FC's. Nine hundred and freaking forty five. My FC is struggling like many others to fill spots for more than one Coil team. I really think the fact that there are 945 FC's on our server alone has something to do with this shortage of players. Here is the thing, linkshells were supposed to be the social channel, not Free Companies. Those were for raiding. If you cant get enough for coil maybe you should think about why. How many FC's does your server have? Do all those FC's need to be there? Especially the social ones? No. Again this is what linkshells are for. The problem is not being able to do Coil in DF, the problem is everyone and their brother thinks they need a FC for themselves instead of a LS. Average FC size on our server? 7-12. See the problem?

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Pretty much this. Malboro has 942 FCs. 604 of them are 1-10 people. I skimmed a few pages, and 90% of those are 2-3 people.

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Originally Posted by RhazeCain

The top end of the game needs to be challenging.


Not that I'm against DF being added to Coil/chimera/hydra mind you. It doesn't hurt the coil regulars (they won't use it), and it doesn't hurt others to have the option to go and fail endlessly if they want.

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The thread is suggesting a LOOT LOCKOUT system, which does nothing to your personal difficulty/challenge because...

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Originally Posted by RhazeCain

It doesn't hurt us coil regulars (we won't use it)

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I'd like to add, I'm one o those Coil regulars.

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Originally Posted by Ronald

This comment right here is borderline selfish. Did it occur to you that some of us want to see other players earn end game rewards instead of being hand held through all content? You should not bash someone for not wanting to do charity work all day.

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Did it not occur to you that there is a big disparity between skilled players and unskilled players and that we'd rather see them helped instead of leaving the game?

I have a job and family and can only play at night for about 3 hours, I have time for a static coil party. Most of my static party has the same issues and they live in different time zones. If we can do it on our different time schedules, anyone can.

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Originally Posted by firepixiedarien

Did it not occur to you that there is a big disparity between skilled players and unskilled players and that we'd rather see them helped instead of leaving the game?

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Exactly. No one looks at the bigger picture. If the unskilled people left, then none of the "skilled" players would be the special snowflakes they think they are right now since the only ones left would be everyone who is as good as they are with the same(if not better)equipment available.

You guys who don't want to help the less fortunate still need that half of the player base by which to measure the value of your own accomplishments, you know. Maybe you should clue in on that.

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Originally Posted by Argent_Wings

Exactly. No one looks at the bigger picture. If the unskilled people left, then none of the "skilled" players would be the special snowflakes they think they are right now since the only ones left would be everyone who is as good as they are with the same(if not better)equipment available.

You guys who don't want to help the less fortunate still need that half of the player base by which to measure the value of your own accomplishments, you know. Maybe you should clue in on that.

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Let's get one thing straight here, no one should be forced to help anyone. Likewise, Ronald's way of thinking (that other players work for their gear instead of us handing it to them) should not be forced on anyone.

If Loot Lockouts were implemented, me and Ronald would NOT be forced to help out other people. The difference is one of us in that situation would WILLINGLY choose to do so.

In the current state of the game, I am shoehorned into Ronald's way of thinking.

My post was less about whether or not someone should be forced to help and more that the "haves and have nots" attitude all over this thread makes no sense when it's the "have nots" that make the "haves" feel like anything they accomplish is worth bragging about.

It would do both sides a great service to show a little more solidarity instead of treating everything as a "My FC vs the world" competition. The lockout is a silly feature as is the decision not to allow BC as part of the DF.

I like my fc and would prefer to stay with them but it seems there's no room for me in any of the statics so I'm going to leave them.

Not only that, it seems to have fostered cliques (coil statics vs rest of the fc) and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

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Originally Posted by bluerei

I have a job and family and can only play at night for about 3 hours, I have time for a static coil party. Most of my static party has the same issues and they live in different time zones. If we can do it on our different time schedules, anyone can.

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This answer is full of bullshit, no other way to put it.

We raid twice a week. I said we have all about 90% attendance, so it means we all are here 9 times over 10. So we miss about once raid every 5 weeks. Can you honestly tell me that it never, ever happens to you to have a social event from work/friends coming over/deadline making you stay late/only evening in a while you can spend with your wife/gf ? I do try to push these around when i can, but when i can't, you better believe i'm going to pick my wife/job over my raiding time, and i don't think that is showing lack of dedication.

Nonetheless, if everyone miss one raid in 10 (as said super low miss rate if you are no more in college), then you will have to pug at least 1 people like 75% of the time.

I would propose that as a solution to this entire problem: no gear is dropped if you queue with the DF. Think of it as a teaching mode version. You could queue as many times as you wanted, and go as high as you wanted, independent of your lockout. Even if you queue with a full party. But if you go through the normal way then existing rules apply and gear does drop.

Why? Because then you could run a team multiple times including teaching groups without worrying about the rest. this would provide a mechanism for everybody to learn and practice, without statics. Then once you were experienced, you could pug for groups missing a person or be ready to join an FC static if it works out.

For some people this would still mean never getting gear. But that is the same as it is now, and at least they could experience the content. Which from my perspective is more important since there will be future ways to get alternate gear, just like there is at every other level of the game up to Coil.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

Why restrict the loot? The only difference between playing the shout spam game in one zone and using the DF is that the DF pulls from more than just the zone you're in and more than just the interested players on your own server.

It's already going to be a bit challenging once you get in because you couldn't static through DF unless you formed a full party on your own server, in which case, you'd just enter BC as you normally would and wouldn't even need the DF approach. Why remove the reward in the situation of a potentially more difficult challenge?

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The only difference? No there are many differences. Shout spam involves "are you are geared as I want", "are you experienced" "are you the class I want".

DF will accept anyone with the minimum gear requirements the devs determine, not some random pug etc, and will accept all classes, not just the ones the one that party leader likes.

It also draws from a larger pool, meaning a much greater chance of finding a group (also of other people who can't find a static).

By removing loot you also remove the element of those would abuse the DF for speed running for gear, which again will make it impossible for new players to actually learn the content.

And because there is no loot dropped, would allow for running unlimited times. It wouldn't have a reason to lock you out. Making it possible for FCs to have training runs with fully formed parties. But anyway.

I think the real problem is the lockout. But without the lockout, people can max gear in no time which clearly SE doesn't want. So...

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

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Why restrict the loot? The only difference between playing the shout spam game in one zone and using the DF is that the DF pulls from more than just the zone you're in and more than just the interested players on your own server.

It's already going to be a bit challenging once you get in because you couldn't static through DF unless you formed a full party on your own server, in which case, you'd just enter BC as you normally would and wouldn't even need the DF approach. Why remove the reward in the situation of a potentially more difficult challenge?

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Originally Posted by beforethechasm

I like my fc and would prefer to stay with them but it seems there's no room for me in any of the statics so I'm going to leave them.

Not only that, it seems to have fostered cliques (coil statics vs rest of the fc) and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

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I'm sure that someone will have a good laugh over this, but I am gonna post it just the same...

Just the acquisition of relics has fostered cliques in my FC, I haven't got my relic yet, and I feel excluded and left behind/left out in my own Free Company - and I am the leader. now, I recognize that I don't have as much playing time as others in the free Company, so I know that there are limits to how quickly I can achieve things, but since hitting lvl 50 I feel like I have hit a glass ceiling.

The whole end-game in FFXIV is fundamentally flawed in my opinion. It feels like it is effectively unattainable for anyone not willing to grind out for hours a day to obtain DL gear, and once established groups form statics, it becomes even harder to break into end-game play. Some of the things said sound like elitism about gear and some sound like people saying they don't want noobs on the team. What it amounts to is feeling like there's no room for you in the end-game, and as those cliques proceed through other content and obtain even better gear, the disparity between them and the others only increases making the separation between the statics and everyone else even harder to bridge.

I've essentially given up on even obtaining my relic anytime soon, and that's despite having 20+ people in the FC who have already completed their relic quests (some more than once).

I'm sorry but quit crying and recruit. It's that simple. Find the people to form a static Coil group or pug those are your options. It's the way MMOs have been forever.

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Originally Posted by Argent_Wings

Exactly. No one looks at the bigger picture. If the unskilled people left, then none of the "skilled" players would be the special snowflakes they think they are right now since the only ones left would be everyone who is as good as they are with the same(if not better)equipment available.

You guys who don't want to help the less fortunate still need that half of the player base by which to measure the value of your own accomplishments, you know. Maybe you should clue in on that.

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There was no comparing being done on my side to the less skilled. What YOU should clue in on is the fact that the sense of entitlement that the less fortunate give off and people like you who think we have an OBLIGATION to do charity work. If people want to help then power to them but if not then mind your business and don't hound them. This is not elitism, this is a simple concept that has been present for a thousand years.

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

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Much of what you described as differences fall under the differences I pointed out. As far as not having as much control over who's in your party, that isn't going to affect anyone who doesn't want to use it anymore than it does now on the dungeons people are running that ARE in the DF.

I'm not sure how making it easier to get -into- a dungeon is going to allow people to abuse it for speed running and getting loot faster... In the end, the random assortment of players is only going to hinder attempts at speed runs, and I'm not sure why putting BC in the DF would also mean no lock-outs... As for being able to run the dungeon as many times as you want to practice, you could trade out the weekly lockout for just loot lockouts, so that repeat attempts yield no additional loot.

It's the same argument I've seen with people trying to speedrun AK with DF pugs... The DF was designed to get INTO dungeons faster, it has no bearing on how easy or quickly that dungeon is completed. Difficulty in finding a group for a dungeon doesn't equate to part of that dungeon's difficulty...

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

It feels like it is effectively unattainable for anyone not willing to grind out for hours a day to obtain DL gear, and once established groups form statics, it becomes even harder to break into end-game play. Some of the things said sound like elitism about gear and some sound like people saying they don't want noobs on the team. What it amounts to is feeling like there's no room for you in the end-game, and as those cliques proceed through other content and obtain even better gear, the disparity between them and the others only increases making the separation between the statics and everyone else even harder to bridge.

I've essentially given up on even obtaining my relic anytime soon, and that's despite having 20+ people in the FC who have already completed their relic quests (some more than once).

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DL gear is pretty much a requirement to getting a relic and moving forward in the game. It's actually not hard to do, but you need to be willing to put in the time. As long you do that, the rest is not too hard. If you only have one 50, then there is really no excuse. You can run 3 to 4 times in WP in 2 hours, do that a few times a week and you'll have full DL and maybe even some AF2 before you know it.

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Originally Posted by EikoCeuracanth

I'm sorry but quit crying and recruit. It's that simple. Find the people to form a static Coil group or pug those are your options. It's the way MMOs have been forever.

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lol yea, recruit a PUG.

No.

There's a difference between:

A. Inviting/befriending someone you randomly met who is cool to hang around wit

and

B. Actively looking for someone who is cool to hang around wit

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Originally Posted by Ronald

There was no comparing being done on my side to the less skilled. What YOU should clue in on is the fact that the sense of entitlement that the less fortunate give off and people like you who think we have an OBLIGATION to do charity work. If people want to help then power to them but if not then mind your business and don't hound them. This is not elitism, this is a simple concept that has been present for a thousand years.

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The simple concept is you not wanting others to tell you what to do, but then turning around and telling someone to mind their own business (you're telling them what to do).

Ignored. You're full of such negativity.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

DL gear is pretty much a requirement to getting a relic and moving forward in the game. It's actually not hard to do, but you need to be willing to put in the time. As long you do that, the rest is not too hard. If you only have one 50, then there is really no excuse. You can run 3 to 4 times in WP in 2 hours, do that a few times a week and you'll have full DL and maybe even some AF2 before you know it.

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Yes, I know that. But the practical aspect of this is not the issue, it's the social dynamic. Put the way you just put it, that sounds eminently reasonable, but put the way that others have put similar information it sounds elitist and exclusionary, and sets up walls that need not be there. The requirement for static teams for the Coil make this even worse as those teams will always be several steps ahead of everyone else, and as they spend more time running the Coil and other content as a team, the are less available to run other things with other people. The end-game in FFXIV is just plain anti-social, it set's up too many real and imagined barriers to entry at each step.

I follow up Molly's idea. And to be honest there are various way to obtain gear, there is a bunch of great crafted gear you can obtain as well is Darklight is too long for you to obtain. But the idea of gearing up is same for everyone. I personally had ZERO luck with Coil drops, and I am on Turn 5 in a static as mentioned. It does make of me an asshole cause I do coil with a static, but I found a group and I value play with it. AF2 is the most safe choice if don't obtain Allagan gear. And I think it does look sexier anyways. But Relic is mandatory, even +1 If you want to do Turn 5 of Coil, the reason ? Damage and stats are a benefice you cannot skip on.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Yes, I know that. But the practical aspect of this is not the issue, it's the social dynamic. Put the way you just put it, that sounds eminently reasonable, but put the way that others have put similar information it sounds elitist and exclusionary, and sets up walls that need not be there. The requirement for static teams for the Coil make this even worse as those teams will always be several steps ahead of everyone else, and as they spend more time running the Coil and other content as a team, the are less available to run other things with other people. The end-game in FFXIV is just plain anti-social, it set's up too many real and imagined barriers to entry at each step.

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You don't need a static group to get DL. As a matter of fact, as a tank (or even if you just use the df with a tank), it's faster if you use the duty finder. Getting DL gear should be looked at as leveling up. You'r not really done levling once you hit 50, you must grind to get DL gear. Once you have that, then your relic, finding a static group will not be hard, even if you have to look outside your FC/LS. TBH, getting a relic isn't that tough either. If the Titan fight is giving you issues, there are groups willing to carry people through it. Sometimes you can find groups that do just fine and just need an 8th person to enter the fight.

IMO, the only wall that should not exist that currently does, is the weekly lockout on Coil. If there are any other walls, they are self-imposed.

I had to split this up - anyhow...

Do note that I haven't read through all these pages.


With that said, what the OP is suggesting I believe is a great overall suggestion... Why?

Loot Lockout:
A loot lockout simply means once you defeat a boss the first time for the week you have access to the loot, but you will not be eligible for loot from that particular boss if you defeat it again during the lockout period.

So if you defeat turns 1, and 2 with some friends, and decide to rerun it with another group of friends new to Coil, you won't gain any access to loot for turns 1 and 2 - let's say they managed turn 3 - you would be eligible for that since you didn't already clear it this week yet.

Players may however prefer to clear content with their static group first to ensure optimal loot distribution if desired.

It fundamentally achieves the same thing as the current Boss Lockout model, with the exception that you can rerun the content (but get no access to loot for encounters already cleared prior). Though, that means people can sell runs now... Here are my thoughts on this.

If the content is easy enough to sell runs, then it's not as difficult as it was anymore. As information becomes generalized, and the average gear of players improve, the encounters gradually become easier as a result (mechanic fights more-so as information is generalized, which happens over time as well).

For example, early on Titan runs were a big thing. Nowadays, it's being sold regularly. Currently, I wouldn't imagine anyone selling Turn 5 BC runs at this time - with a loot lockout instead of boss lockout, eventually it will be sold - but not while it remains extremely difficult.

Difficult content won't be sold because it's too difficult to carry someone. If it's no longer difficult for whatever reason - then people may start selling it, and odds are that it can be pugged within reason or with some difficulty anyhow.


Adding BC to duty finder doesn't make static groups run duty finder! The same way there are alot of players who prefer to create premade groups for WP/AK within their FC, or on their server - duty finder is simply there as an additional option.

While the success rate and speed may not be as high as static groups or premade groups hand picking members - it's an option, and a place that newer players and players with erratic schedules can use to access the content.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

You don't need a static group to get DL. As a matter of fact, as a tank (or even if you just use the df with a tank), it's faster if you use the duty finder. Getting DL gear should be looked at as leveling up.**snip** Sometimes you can find groups that do just fine and just need an 8th person to enter the fight.

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I understand all of that, but I didnt pay my sub, form my FC and bring 50+ gamers from elsewhere to FFXIV just so i could enjoy playing with strangers.

Oh, and for reference, glass ceilings are NOT self imposed.