The problem with Monk isn't positionals (opinion piece)

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

So wait SE simplified yet another job to the point it's no longer fun? I am shocked, I say. Shocked!

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Yeah, Monk is so completely not fun that people are actually playing it.

Look at the FFLogs for the Endwalker Extreme raids and you see a lot of Monks.

In Shadowbringers you never saw Monks in progression raids because no one wanted them.

So, looks like the Monk changes worked.

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Originally Posted by Xiaoki

Yeah, Monk is so completely not fun that people are actually playing it.

Look at the FFLogs for the Endwalker Extreme raids and you see a lot of Monks.

In Shadowbringers you never saw Monks in progression raids because no one wanted them.

So, looks like the Monk changes worked.

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You shouldn´t claim stuff just because... let´s face it:

- Monk has been played in Shadowbringers
- Monk and Blackmage had the lowest playercount via ff.logs in Shadowbringers

Now:

- Monk is played in Endwalker
- Monk and Ninja has the lowest playercount via ff.logs in Endwalker

So what changed?

- Ninja is less popular probably caused by the release of Reaper
- Monk didn´t changed in its popularity even if it has got a complete rework, meanwhile Summoner, who got a rework too, is one of the most popular classes right now. (Obviously because it´s easy and has bling bling.)

In the end...

The changes DID NOT work. The most ppl out there running and logging trials with Monk are old Monk mains for sure. They test it out, some of them (myself included) even hope that we get our positionals back within the next patch, so all this new practice incl. positional-play makes sense. But the overall popularity and playrate didn´t grow and if Monk stays in its current state, it´ll sink drastically in the future.

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Originally Posted by Xiaoki

Yeah, Monk is so completely not fun that people are actually playing it.

Look at the FFLogs for the Endwalker Extreme raids and you see a lot of Monks.

In Shadowbringers you never saw Monks in progression raids because no one wanted them.

So, looks like the Monk changes worked.

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This is a ridiculous take. People were playing Monks back in Shadowbringers as well. The problem that you conveniently overlooked is that Monk has the second lowest number of parses being submitted to FFlogs for Extreme raids. Only Ninja has fewer (which suggests that job also has issues, something that can be corroborated by the number of Ninja-related discussions on these forums).

Monk is one of the top five raid DPS in the game right now, yet has one of the fewest numbers of players taking it into existing endgame content. Other jobs with lower raid and personal DPS have considerably more people contributing parses to that site.

Monk was also one of the lowest played jobs in endgame in Shadowbringers. If nothing else, with the sheer number of people playing Endwalker, if the job changes actually worked to attract old players AND new ones, surely the numbers on FFlogs would reflect this. They do not. Other jobs, with lower raid or personal DPS, have more people pushing them into endgame content despite the removal of 4 positionals, despite the removal of Greased Lightning in Shadowbringers, and the addition of flashy animations for the Blitz system, AND the half-hearted return of old animations that the majority of Monk players will see only when they sync down and play the job when it is arguably even less engaging.

The Monk changes did not work.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Like what, though? What, to your mind, is an example of things "working together"?

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I'll just copy my suggestions over.

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1st off, I would get rid of the crit requirement to gain Chakra and remove the Chakra gain from Brotherhood. Instead, I would tie Chakra gain to positionals so landing a positional grants you a Chakra.
Next, I would have TFC/Enlightenment act as the opener for the Beast Chakra gauge so using either skil would allow your next 3 Weapon skills to open up their corresponding Beast Chakra as they currently do under Perfect Balance. Since Nadi would no longer be tied in with Perfect Balance and thus the Beast Chakra gauge no longer be dependant on specific skills to be used, just have us cycle thru each Blitz from Elixir Field to Rising Phoenix to Phantom Rush, with each Blitz progressing in power.
Turn Celestial Revolution into a 120s oGCD attack that instantly grants 1 Nadi effectively skipping 1 Masterful Blitz attack during our burst window so as to get Phantom Rush in.
Turn Six Sided Star into a 60s oGCD attack that instantly grants 5 Chakra.
Return the positional negation to Riddle of Earth

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Consolidation =/= Ability pruning. Consolidation is what allows us NOT to prune older abilities when adding new ones.

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And yet they decide to remove skills rather than Consolidate them. Tell me, if Fist of Earth/Wind/Fire had been made into low level version of Riddle of Earth/Wind/Fire, it would've accomplished the same thing as removing them but it would make the Low Level version of MNK much better to play because they have a more complete version of their toolkit available at low levels and can get into the proper flow of their job rather than get these tools on the tail end of their leveling experience. So where's the logic in removing them if a simple rework would've suffice?

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I'd prefer healers have a degree of smart-casting or that AoE heals had lower relative power as not to make DPS defensives unimportant while healers are still alive

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Yes let's nerf Healers because they're the reason why defensive skills are unimportant and totally not the fact that fights have scripted oncoming damage, to say nothing of the plethora of group mitigative tools currently flying everywhere. Defensive CDs on DPS is little more than Accident Forgiven because someone screwed up and while nice to have, really don't matter since fights are too scripted for them to have much of an impact anyway.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

And yet they decide to remove skills rather than Consolidate them. Tell me, if Fist of Earth/Wind/Fire had been made into low level version of Riddle of Earth/Wind/Fire, it would've accomplished the same thing as removing them but it would make the Low Level version of MNK much better to play because they have a more complete version of their toolkit available at low levels and can get into the proper flow of their job rather than get these tools on the tail end of their leveling experience. So where's the logic in removing them if a simple rework would've suffice?

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...???

I'm not the one advocating for their removal. I'm literally the guy who's been asking for the consolidation of unnecessary buttons instead of ability removal while you've campaigning that we should remove actual abilities.

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Yes let's nerf Healers because they're the reason why defensive skills are unimportant and totally not the fact that fights have scripted oncoming damage, to say nothing of the plethora of group mitigative tools currently flying everywhere.

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Wanting smart-casting or for 8-man healing to actually use a degree of selective heals on allies other than random-target mechanic victims or the tank has nothing to do with wanting healing nerfed.

It's precisely because it's basically all just AoE healing that there's so no reward for any fewer than all but one players in a raid taking less damage. As soon as it's two or more, you're better off just AoE healing them unless there's a White-Hole-like coming up any you'll have to pick who lives and who dies.

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1st off, I would get rid of the crit requirement to gain Chakra and remove the Chakra gain from Brotherhood. Instead, I would tie Chakra gain to positionals so landing a positional grants you a Chakra.

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I prefer Bootshine and Shadow of the Destroyer feeling more significant as a result of crit granting Chakra, but I wouldn't hate this.

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Next, I would have TFC/Enlightenment act as the opener for the Beast Chakra gauge so using either skil would allow your next 3 Weapon skills to open up their corresponding Beast Chakra as they currently do under Perfect Balance. Since Nadi would no longer be tied in with Perfect Balance and thus the Beast Chakra gauge no longer be dependant on specific skills to be used, just have us cycle thru each Blitz from Elixir Field to Rising Phoenix to Phantom Rush, with each Blitz progressing in power.

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So a Blitz every 5 GCDs on the DoT? (Or 15 GCDs, if you don't give back the 4 positionals?) No Blitzes available from AoE since AoEs have no positionals? I'm not sure I dig that, especially the lack of bankability.

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Turn Celestial Revolution into a 120s oGCD attack that instantly grants 1 Nadi effectively skipping 1 Masterful Blitz attack during our burst window so as to get Phantom Rush in.

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You get PR into a burst window either way. Just the not the first one. If you want it aligned with even minutes, you use a double-Solar opener and that's it. That's only encouraged for certain fight lengths and amounts of rDPS received anyways.

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Turn Six Sided Star into a 60s oGCD attack that instantly grants 5 Chakra.

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Without any added Chakra margin, this means we'd have to randomly wait 1-4 GCDs not to overcap the Chakra generation and couldn't use it mid-Blitz-builder without likewise wasting Chakra since we can't spend Chakra until we exit the build. That seems likely to be clunky.

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Return the positional negation to Riddle of Earth.

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Sure. I'm guessing you are adding back the 4 lost positionals, though?

On the whole, this seems a decent line of change, but my main issues here are that the Blitzes would (unless you're not bringing back the positionals) be incredibly frequent (at most 10s apart) but with zero bankability and, despite their frequency, would still barely varied (only A, then B, then C, looping). Moreover, you'd be spending a 60s and 120s CD just to generate yet more Blitz (and some free potency), which were only 10s apart anyways. (?) Right now, Blitzes feel decently powerful and deliberate, but that seems like it'd be unlikely to continue if we were using them this frequently. At that point, it feels like we'd need either more Blitz options or a more cumulative/advanced Blitz than just Tornado Kick / Phantom Rush.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...???
I'm not the one advocating for their removal.

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I'm not saying that you're advocating for it but rather that SE's doesn't distinguish between Consolidation and Ability Pruning so I view it as the same thing. I'm also not campaigning for skill removal, more so that we have a more cohesive toolkit.

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On the whole, this seems a decent line of change, but my main issues here are that the Blitzes would (unless you're not bringing back the positionals) be incredibly frequent (at most 10s apart) but with zero bankability and, despite their frequency, would still barely varied (only A, then B, then C, looping). Moreover, you'd be spending a 60s and 120s CD just to generate yet more Blitz (and some free potency), which were only 10s apart anyways. (?) Right now, Blitzes feel decently powerful and deliberate, but that seems like it'd be unlikely to continue if we were using them this frequently. At that point, it feels like we'd need either more Blitz options or a more cumulative/advanced Blitz than just Tornado Kick / Phantom Rush.

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It's not a perfect rework as I haven't put much thought into it and just have it as a baseline suggestion on how I would like for MNK's systems to work. I could see returning the positional requirements on Dragon Kick/Bootshine and leaving off Twin Snakes and True Strike so as to reel in the amount of Blitz we accumulate to a more reasonable level, or even just having Bootshine/True Strike/Snap Punch being the positional skills for Chakra while Dragon Kick/Twin Snakes/Demolish remain as they are, minus the Demolish positional. For our AoE rotation, there was a time when Rockbreaker had a positional so maybe that could be a thing again but I admit it would need work. As for SSS, I was just trying to make it useful really. It could be as simple as adding 1 Chakra if that is more balanced so long as it worked with the systems in some way.

The overall goal is just to make MNK's toolkit work together towards something rather than just having a skill for the sake of having them.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

It's not a perfect rework as I haven't put much thought into it and just have it as a baseline suggestion on how I would like for MNK's systems to work.

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Fair enough.

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I could see returning the positional requirements on Dragon Kick/Bootshine and leaving off Twin Snakes and True Strike so as to reel in the amount of Blitz we accumulate to a more reasonable level, or even just having Bootshine/True Strike/Snap Punch being the positional skills for Chakra while Dragon Kick/Twin Snakes/Demolish remain as they are, minus the Demolish positional.

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I think that much is a must. If you left MNK at only 2 positionals, then Blitz would be on a 30s CD and any missed positional would delay Blitz by 6 seconds, which would feel devastating macro-rotationally.

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For our AoE rotation, there was a time when Rockbreaker had a positional

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There was not. Not in ARR. Not in HW. Never. There was a time when True Strike's positional was miniscule (a 5% bonus crit chance), when Twin Snakes had only a 12 second duration, when Bootshine fell short of True Strike if one had even 35% crit chance under buffs, when Demolish's DoT didn't scale with Greased Lightning, when Impulse Drive was Monk's optimal filler attack (though limited to short fights due to its TP drain), when ToD wouldn't wake sleeping enemies, and when One-Ilm-Punch ruined Summoner's days by stealing every stack of their Aetherflow, but there was never a time when Rockbreaker, an AoE, had a positional.

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As for SSS, I was just trying to make it useful really. It could be as simple as adding 1 Chakra if that is more balanced so long as it worked with the systems in some way.

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This is where we're going to have to agree to disagree then. To me, the best thing about your SSS rework is actually its anti-synergy, since at least that stops it from being empty apm in a context that can't naturally turn that into something interesting (i.e., unlike when it was better to get an extra True Strike in and let Twin Snakes fall off just before DK unless you had oGCDs coming up or the 4.3 TK rotations), but I imagine most players would pop a brain-leak over it. In either case, I don't see how a button that simply offers a free Blitz per minute, especially to go alongside a button that just offers a free Blitz reward every other minute, would be superior to an SSS that's simply had its potency increased.

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The overall goal is just to make MNK's toolkit work together towards something rather than just having a skill for the sake of having them.

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To me, the rough suggestion for SSS and Celestial Rotation feel like the latter. I'd rather have situational skills than just "more of the same, for free, per x minutes". But again, that's just where our preferences diverge. I like having a more even distribution of obligatory button presses, little convolution (added steps that don't ultimately increase depth), and decisions to be made between competing paths of action.

To give a simple example, I preferred when Guren/Senei cost 50 gauge and Ikishoten was on half as long a cooldown so they, together, actually made the Kenki gauge an element worth being mindful of, as compared to the current version of Ikishoten's simply directly affording every Guren/Senei and unlocking a further skill (that takes up its own button despite being otherwise unusable) while Guren/Senei cost no more than the standard 25 Kenki of Shinten/Kyuten.

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EDIT: Ran out of posts:

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

You're right, it used to be a conal attack and I misremembered that as a positional cause I would always go to rear to make sure it hit everything.

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Ahh, that actually makes a lot of sense. Yes, it did certainly take some positioning before, just not... target-relative positioning. Also, I miss that cone and its extra range. It was weirdly relevant back in T9 when GL was only 10s long, and the animation makes far less sense without it.

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Technicality aside though, it could still work in relation to being the AoE Chakra accumulator or we could just leave Shadow of the Destroyer to do that, either or.

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If you're thinking of bringing positionals back to DK and Bootshine, then I'd just slap into onto Opo-opo and Coeurl skills in general (though only on successful hit on AoEs or successful positional on STs, ofc). Prior to Form Shift, it'd feel like 2 GCD to ramp up to contributing to Blitz, then 2 GCDs contributing, then 1 GCD off for every 2 on, etc.

The feel of downtime (and, heck, in-combat Meditation) feel would still be super wonky, though, so long as Meditation recharges Chakra (and fully so, outside of combat) which in turn unlocks Blitz...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There was not. Not in ARR. Not in HW. Never. There was a time when True Strike's positional was miniscule (a 5% bonus crit chance), when Twin Snakes had only a 12 second duration, when Bootshine fell short of True Strike if one had even 35% crit chance under buffs, when Demolish's DoT didn't scale with Greased Lightning, when Impulse Drive was Monk's optimal filler attack (though limited to short fights due to its TP drain), when ToD wouldn't wake sleeping enemies, and when One-Ilm-Punch ruined Summoner's days by stealing every stack of their Aetherflow, but there was never a time when Rockbreaker, an AoE, had a positional.

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You're right, it used to be a conal attack and I misremembered that as a positional cause I would always go to rear to make sure it hit everything. Technicality aside though, it could still work in relation to being the AoE Chakra accumulator or we could just leave Shadow of the Destroyer to do that, either or.

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This is where we're going to have to agree to disagree then. To me, the best thing about your SSS rework is actually its anti-synergy, since at least that stops it from being empty apm in a context that can't naturally turn that into something interesting (i.e., unlike when it was better to get an extra True Strike in and let Twin Snakes fall off just before DK unless you had oGCDs coming up or the 4.3 TK rotations), but I imagine most players would pop a brain-leak over it. In either case, I don't see how a button that simply offers a free Blitz per minute, especially to go alongside a button that just offers a free Blitz reward every other minute, would be superior to an SSS that's simply had its potency increased.

To me, the rough suggestion for SSS and Celestial Rotation feel like the latter. I'd rather have situational skills than just "more of the same, for free, per x minutes". But again, that's just where our preferences diverge. I like having a more even distribution of obligatory button presses, little convolution (added steps that don't ultimately increase depth), and decisions to be made between competing paths of action.

To give a simple example, I preferred when Guren/Senei cost 50 gauge and Ikishoten was on half as long a cooldown so they, together, actually made the Kenki gauge an element worth being mindful of, as compared to the current version of Ikishoten's simply directly affording every Guren/Senei and unlocking a further skill (that takes up its own button despite being otherwise unusable) while Guren/Senei cost no more than the standard 25 Kenki of Shinten/Kyuten.

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That's fair. Differences in opinion.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

The moment Samurai was introduced in SB, it was pretty clear that the role of selfish melee was going to be further contested, so Monk was given Brotherhood (that didn't actually benefit every DPS job) to provide some utility that nobody was really ever asking for (and punished by Riddle of Fire making us slower for some awful reason).

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Mild correction to this, but quite a few people were asking for Monk to get a party buff going into Stormblood. You can't forget that Heavensward was the peak of DRG/NIN/MCH/BRD buff stacking and the perception was that Monk needed some sort of buff of its own to be competitive. For the most part people were actually fine with Samurai taking the "full DPS, no utility" mantle because the belief at the time was that Samurai would just land in the same spot HW!Monk did by not bringing enough personal damage to outweigh that of the buffs other jobs brought (which did happen for most serious statics at least).

Most of the outrage at the time was for the other reasons you said though. They made those changes without any consideration for the rest of Monk's kit and the job suffered from it. They ignored most of Monk's many other issues from Heavensward. Then literally every other decision they made in Stormblood was baffling, from Riddle of Fire's slow, Tackle Mastery was the most insulting trait the game had ever seen, RNG Chakras were immediately hated by everyone, Riddle of Earth was doubly insulting for being both bad as a GL refresh skill and that BLM/DRG got buff refreshing effects added to existing buttons without any of Riddle of Earth's nonsense, and Brotherhood turned out to have way more problems than it had any right to.

I think MNK has a flow problem. Playing DRG or RPR or even my DNC everything tends to just flow together really nicely. MNK has so many buffs along with constantly gaining chakra on top of trying to figure out when the best time to Perfect Balance that the job doesn't flow very well.

I think they should either not tie Beast Chakra to Perfect Balance, or have it so that if you have no Nadi you get Elixer Field which gives Lunar, if you have Lunar you get Flint strike which then gives Solar, and then if you have both you get Tornado Kick. Raising Pheonix and Phantom rush respectively. Turn Celestial Revolution into an Upgrade to another move or something.

But that's just me I think.