Hardcore is not a dirty word

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Wait, what was your point?

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fail wiki link lol

this post is soaked in irony

I spent most of my time on FFXI running around killing orcs using a battle mechanics first introduced in..... Final Fantasy 1. Not hard to learn a system that had already been going for almost 20 years.

That is, of what little time I spent playing it.

When I did join an LS during that small amount of time though most conversations went:
"Hey do you guys wanna go to [insert place] and do [insert activity]?"
which was then followed by:
"Ah no, we've done that so many times it's boring."

If that's hardcore then I'd rather be considered casual, even if I play the game for 5-10 hours a day.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

The point I'm trying to make here, is that FFXI didn't have complex game mechanics. What it had was bog-standard gameplay for a late '90's early '00's MMO, it was really no different from Ultima or Everquest, it was just set in Final Fantasy Millieu and had time sinks out the wazoo. most of the "FFXI was hardcore, FFXI was better...blah blah blah" is fueled largely by nostalgia, not anything actually concrete.

Time invested can be a component of a "hardcore" game, but in the case of XI, you put in a lot of work for very little reward. Drop rates were ridiculous (0 of 200 for the Monster Signa...wooo HARDCORE!!) and you spent so much time waiting, no not playing, literally sitting on your butt in Jeuno waiting for something...anything to happen.

and really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done (ask me how many times I've killed Arthas in WoW...if you guessed 0 you'd be right) what I'm taking exception to is this rose colored glasses look to the sins of XI, there was no big reward at the end of those tunnels...it usually was an oncoming train of further grind

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"really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done", that's exactly what you are arguing... you sound as though you played FF11 if your convictions you are portraying are true then you must be a masochist.

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Originally Posted by Bled

fail wiki link lol

this post is soaked in irony

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Hmm? Just saying, everyone thinking something is hardcore doesn't automatically make it so.

Now, if you'd like to actually explain what was so hardcore about it, feel free; but saying "Everyone here believes FFXI was hardcore, so it is," is, well, a logical fallacy. That holds true regardless of whether or not XI was, in fact, hardcore.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Why does everyone assume the whole game has to be either casual or hard core?

Why cant it be casual with a bit of harder content?

Am I asking too much here?

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I think I love you. ._.

(Also, I don't see why people see casual as a dirty word either. As much as "hardcore gamers", an oxymoron if I've ever seen one...as much as they like to complain about people using hardcore as a dirty word I've seen just as many sling the word casual like it was an H-bomb around these forums.)

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

The point I'm trying to make here, is that FFXI didn't have complex game mechanics. What it had was bog-standard gameplay for a late '90's early '00's MMO, it was really no different from Ultima or Everquest, it was just set in Final Fantasy Millieu and had time sinks out the wazoo.

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Madam. Are you implying Ultima didn't have complex game mechanics?

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Originally Posted by Bled

"really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done", that's exactly what you are arguing... you sound as though you played FF11 if your convictions you are portraying are true then you must be a masochist.

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No what happened was is that I was once like you, convinced that FFXI had depth and complexity and was truly rewarding, then I took a break for 2 months (this was in 2005) and when I cam back I found that I wasn't having fun anymore, the seams were beginning to shows. I started noticing how long it was taking me to get anything done, when I used to be able to spend a whole night playing, I found leveling up was just repetative, I mean hell what did you do after you hit the level cap...YOU KEPT GRINDING, you ground out merit points, you waited for monster to spawn, it was like a rat on a wheel going round and round and never getting anywhere, it just never stopped and then as Kona has pointed out, trying to actually get content done was like pulling teeth because of the lethargic player base, top that off with nearly deserted servers and it just started dragging my will to play down further. and then it dawned on me...I had never had fun with the actual game, I had had fun with my linkshell mates and they had all long since abandoned ship, and thus so did I, and I have never looked back.

Content that takes time and is hard to do should be rewarding, FFXI just never had any of that reward...it was a perpetual motion machine of mediocrity that should be left in the past where it belongs.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Madam. Are you implying Ultima didn't have complex game mechanics?

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I didn't imply that, I implied FFXI didn't, you see Ultima did it first (sorta), by the time FFXI came out it was already old hat.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

No what happened was is that I was once like you, convinced that FFXI had depth and complexity and was truly rewarding, then I took a break for 2 months (this was in 2005) and when I cam back I found that I wasn't having fun anymore, the seams were beginning to shows. I started noticing how long it was taking me to get anything done, when I used to be able to spend a whole night playing, I found leveling up was just repetative, I mean hell what did you do after you hit the level cap...YOU KEPT GRINDING, you ground out merit points, you waited for monster to spawn, it was like a rat on a wheel going round and round and never getting anywhere, it just never stopped and then as Kona has pointed out, trying to actually get content done was like pulling teeth because of the lethargic player base, top that off with nearly deserted servers and it just started dragging my will to play down further. and then it dawned on me...I had never had fun with the actual game, I had had fun with my linkshell mates and they had all long since abandoned ship, and thus so did I, and I have never looked back.

Content that takes time and is hard to do should be rewarding, FFXI just never had any of that reward...it was a perpetual motion machine of mediocrity that should be left in the past where it belongs.

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What happened to you is you grew out of the game... that happens to a lot of people. However that does not validate that FF11 was not a hardcore game. Hardcore games take a lot of invested time and you don't like that any more, that does not mean hardcore has changed it means you have changed.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Hmm? Just saying, everyone thinking something is hardcore doesn't automatically make it so.

Now, if you'd like to actually explain what was so hardcore about it, feel free; but saying "Everyone here believes FFXI was hardcore, so it is," is, well, a logical fallacy. That holds true regardless of whether or not XI was, in fact, hardcore.

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here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.