Changing Titan Ex Echo

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Originally Posted by Iriadysa

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

Read it and understand why your argument holds no ground.

I already acknowledged some people may have technical problems. A game that is meant to have any kind of action in it should not try to cater to them, because it defeats the original purpose.

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It may be an anecdote when you read it, but as I personally experienced it I can assure you it was fact. Just brushing it away as an anecdote doesn't change the fact that it happened to me, I know it's happened to other people, and it will happen again. Enough anecdotes that all agree with one another eventually becomes an observation that should be acknowledged. Your "omg why are people claiming lag" attitude doesn't help at all in the face of that. Even if only 5% of the community is affected it doesn't change that this happens, and it's not just players whining because they screwed up. Acting all surprising and trying to claim that people should just know the rotations won't change the fact that you're obviously making assumptions that it's just people screwing up. Acknowledging people have technical issues means nothing when you specifically say

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Originally Posted by Iriadysa

You don't freaking need 50ms latency to dodge a landslide because:


1. You know exactly when it's coming. Exactly when it's coming
2. You know exactly where it's going to be. People stack behind Titan's ass, so the dodge patter is always the same.

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You can't acknowledge that some people have problems but in the same breadth act like it shouldn't be an issue at all. Packet loss makes your entire point null and void anyway.

The main point I want to make comes down to this. Some people do have network and computer problems. When you have the attitude that it should be easy just knowing the rotations then you have an attitude based entirely on false assumptions based on nothing more than your own personal experiences (see your own link for anecdotes), and we all know what happens when you make assumptions. I have no doubt some people use lag as an excuse, but assuming that they all are is an outright fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Iriadysa

I don't really understand what people want. A game playable at 300+ms? That would become a ridiculous joke for everyone else. Honestly, if you ask me, the lag is in their heads.

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The game is perfectly playable with 300+ latency too. Titan ex wasn't much of a problem once I knew the fight getting 330ms from South Africa, and I was rarely(< 3%) the one to mess up. Like you said, the only time I died is if I moved into the wrong direction for a landslide because of one member being an outlier.

I understand people having routing problems, but I honestly think that they just need to react quicker if it is possible for me to do it while getting routed across the world.

Also, nerfing the fight with echo is a ridiculous idea. Titan will be a complete walk in the park. A few invested hours in this fight makes you adept enough to be 99% consistent-It is fine as is.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

You can't acknowledge that some people have problems but in the same breadth act like it shouldn't be an issue at all. Packet loss makes your entire point null and void anyway.

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No, packet loss makes your point null. Thing is, packet loss is not the lowest denominator an online video game should be based on, because packet loss is a symptom of a poor connection.

The whole argument here is "my net lags, nerf Titan". My point is "if your net is lagging to the point where Titan is literally impossible to beat, you have bigger problems than not beating Titan".

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Originally Posted by Iriadysa

The whole argument here is "my net lags, nerf Titan". My point is "if your net is lagging to the point where Titan is literally impossible to beat, you have bigger problems than not beating Titan".

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I'm not arguing to nerf titan. I'm arguing against the attitude that players who claim lag are all lying or they should just learn the rotation. That is not one size fits all, and It precludes any possibility that someone is genuinely lagging. That attitude is bad for the game and for the community. It's a bad attitude to have to have period.

I think they should change the slow increase of the echo and make it all or nothing, since the first few stacks are basically a placebo and don't actually help. At least then people wouldn't have to wipe five times and be completely demoralized by the time they get the actual buff.

Changing the mechanics could be a lot of messy work. Maybe they could just add something like a deadly boss mods kind of thing to tell me when things are about to happen more clearly and directly, or just put an indicator to show me where to stand at certain points.

At the very least, they should make a "training mode" that I can enter solo and have a party of NPCs who all dodge correctly, so I can practice without having to waste 7 other people's time.

Okay, to clear all the confusion about lag, here's some background info on Square-Enix's position correction. Or rather, the lack of it.

Square-Enix's method of checking your position is to force you to ping the server every set amount of time with where you are. Note that this isn't identical to your character being drawn. In theory, if you were able to move to and fro fast enough, the game wouldn't see any movement at all despite your character on the screen moving.

For EX primals it's been reasonably shown this length is 1 entire second.

Factoring in network latency we can give a rough upper limit of ~1.5s (because any longer and you probably have actual connection issues).

Do note that the server is the one who handles all that, and not everything happening in a fight is synchronous (for example, your GCD is displayed and handled mostly locally locally, but your actions and their consequences are handled by the server) meaning on your end things can look peachy keen but the server doesn't see that. Guess who wins in that situation?

An easily observed way to see this is, sometimes in periods of high latency you will notice your moves being eaten by the server. This is FAR more obvious for casters, because of what happens. You're casting spells, you see a few go out, but then you start interrupting yourself. This is because you left your GCD while the server was still handling your last action, making you interrupt yourself because you're trying to perform 2 things at once.

Do note that if the server is under strain, this will happen REGARDLESS OF YOUR CONNECTION. Because it doesn't matter that you're sending the info to S-E perfectly, if they're being slow on actually resolving it on their side. This means you get the mythical "PS3 lag" (it does tend to happen a bit more on PS3 due to PSN existing as an intermediary) where from your perspective you absolutely cleared it but the server doesn't see that.

This is especially prevalent because Landslide has a cast time of ~3 seconds. That's not a whole lot of time if you get a max of 3 position updates! And even a small amount of latency can eat entire movements. So stop pretending that every single instance of someone claiming lag is them being baddies and trying to dodge responsibility. It shows a flagrant lack of knowledge in an aspect of this game's design that does actually hold people back pretty frequently.

the mechanics are fine, the echo buff does help, it makes the fight go faster so less overall time to dodge things and less of a chance for error, if you have a competent group. In the end that's really what it comes down to if your group is good

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

Square-Enix's method of checking your position is to force you to ping the server every set amount of time with where you are.

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Position updates are every 0.1 sec now (was fixed for EX/Coil in 2.1 and everything else in 2.2) - so it's really are non-issue. Even adding network latency on top of that, overall lag shall not be more than 0.5 sec (and it's already rather bad connection).
It's just a convenient excuse, because most of the times people have problems with mechanics is due to human reaction latencies and not network latencies. Which should be fixed by more practice and memorizing rotations.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

Position updates are every 0.1 sec now (was fixed for EX/Coil in 2.1 and everything else in 2.2) - so it's really are non-issue. Even adding network latency on top of that, overall lag shall not be more than 0.5 sec (and it's already rather bad connection).
It's just a convenient excuse, because most of the times people have problems with mechanics is due to human reaction latencies and not network latencies. Which should be fixed by more practice and memorizing rotations.

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Yeah it was improved to .1 and that did indeed remove many of the problems people experienced but it's still a fallacy to assume "It's just a convenient excuse, because most of the times people have problems with mechanics is due to human reaction latencies and not network latencies."

Yes, some people do that, but no, not everyone does. If you act like everyone is lying eventually you're going to be a complete ass to a player who is just simply struggling against tech issues.

Everywhere i see people posting that "Titan ex is too hard" and in every comment section people say; No. It's extreme for a reason - it's not suppose to be easy and some people might not be able to do it at all.
To be honest, I can't agreed to this being too hard. If you can dodge it's pretty easy, even if you don't know the rotation it's possible to do it as long as you can dodge it.

My best tip to people is; go PF make a group. When that group fails, pick the once who did well and make a new PF group. Repeat this until you have a team that knows how to dodge etc.

Honestly I'm glad it's as difficult as it is. Makes killing him so much more fun.