Changing Titan Ex Echo

[Yolteotl]

It keeps popping up where ppl want adjustments to Titan EX. Technically speaking, the Echo stat buff doesnt help with people that are trying to get past Titan Ex, it's not the outputs, its the mechanics that makes or breaks Titan Ex. Echo buff currently causes Titan's rotations to skip, for example healer runs to outside for gaol and the Echo skips over Titan's rotation and he jumps and u fall to doom inside the gaol. (Used as an example of how Echo fails to improve survivability, yes healers can learn to circumvent this)

Instead of buffing outputs for TItan Ex, why not have Echo adjust the mechanics so ppl with latency or timing issues dont instantly wipe the party where Echo stat buffs will never help.

The whole purpose of the Echo is to make the content easier to push through because the content is considered Dated. If Echo nerfed the mechanics instead of buffed the outputs, it's really the only way to achieve this purpose on Titan Ex.

The people who got past Titan Ex back before it was dated will prolly whine how that would be 'too much nerf' but to point to an actual example in the game of 'too much nerf' all you have to look at is Demon Wall in Ampadour Keep. At least with the Echo adjusted in this way, every time u enter Titan Ex, it will be it's 'pure' form, and only lessen the mechanics over time as you keep at it, resetting back to its 'pure' form each time you go in.

I'm not saying the mechanics adjustment should be implemented in addition to the Stat boosts, I'm saying the Stat Boosts should be removed and replaced with Mechanics adjustments

Another completely viable alternative:

You could just give people longer to react but keep everything basically the same. Longer cast time on landslides, longer time in between successive bomb explosions, upheaval doesn't kick back quite as far, longer time to break gaols, longer time to break the heart. That sort of thing would make it easier for those who are having a lot of difficulty clearing the fight without just turning it into Titan HM.

EDIT: As of 2.3 Titan EX wil no longer be required for access to Thornmarch EX and Wholeater EX. Totally different direction but works for me. Thanks Devs! Still leaves it a completely viable option to train LS or FC members on the fight but they aren't stuck in the Statis that clearing this fight has been causing too oftenly.

[skaterger]

/cast adolquium
/cast succor
/cast sacred soil

[Adoxx]

The problem with adjusting the mechanics though with an "Echo Buff" is that if you make the mechanics easier, you are basically just turning Titan EX into Titan Hard. This is an MMO that has always stated it is for only the best computer (now on consoles too). As for latency issues, that has been a factor in every MMO that has ever been. If you don't have the connection to play the game it was made, perhaps you should look into a different game or upgrading your internet.

Titan EX once you know how to do it and understand it is barely any more difficult than Titan Hard. As a person who has completed Titan EX, I would hate to see Square pull a Blizzard and nerf the entire fight just because people find it to be too hard. Games are supposed to be difficult. They are not supposed to be easy.

[Giantbane]

The problem with adjusting the mechanics though with an "Echo Buff" is that if you make the mechanics easier, you are basically just turning Titan EX into Titan Hard. This is an MMO that has always stated it is for only the best computer (now on consoles too). As for latency issues, that has been a factor in every MMO that has ever been. If you don't have the connection to play the game it was made, perhaps you should look into a different game or upgrading your internet.

You could just give people longer to react but keep everything basically the same. Longer cast time on landslides, longer time in between successive bomb explosions, upheaval doesn't kick back quite as far, longer time to break gaols, longer time to break the heart. That sort of thing would make it easier for those who are having a lot of difficulty clearing the fight without just turning it into Titan HM.

Titan EX once you know how to do it and understand it is barely any more difficult than Titan Hard.

As someone who has also completed both fights, that's not even remotely true. There is less space to move, and things like 5 way landslides mean you have to be much more on the ball when dodging.

[Yolteotl]

The problem with adjusting the mechanics though with an "Echo Buff" is that if you make the mechanics easier, you are basically just turning Titan EX into Titan Hard. This is an MMO that has always stated it is for only the best computer (now on consoles too). As for latency issues, that has been a factor in every MMO that has ever been. If you don't have the connection to play the game it was made, perhaps you should look into a different game or upgrading your internet.

Titan EX once you know how to do it and understand it is barely any more difficult than Titan Hard. As a person who has completed Titan EX, I would hate to see Square pull a Blizzard and nerf the entire fight just because people find it to be too hard. Games are supposed to be difficult. They are not supposed to be easy.

I understand people like you (and you are opposed to any Echo at all from that standpoint) and I personally know the fight like the back of my hand, but when u end up with enough of those 8 members who dont have it completely memorized, the whole run is a wash or people are being carried. But the Echo is there and is there to make Dated content easier, the very thing you oppose is the very purpose of the Echo.

You could just give people longer to react but keep everything basically the same. Longer cast time on landslides, longer time in between successive bomb explosions, upheaval doesn't kick back quite as far, longer time to break gaols, longer time to break the heart. That sort of thing would make it easier for those who are having a lot of difficulty clearing the fight without just turning it into Titan HM.

This is true and a perfectly viable option also, main thing is that the current Echo buff doesn't assist the completion of the Content and that is the very purpose of the Echo existing.

People who feel like nerfing Dated content is a handout. #1 The Echo only builds over time, so the groups still face the proper fight in it's pure form everytime they enter, #2 Continuously making it easier to clear until Echo caps is the very purpose of the Echo, #3 most of you don't even do Titan Ex anymore unless ur going for a mount drop and ragequit as soon that first person of the 8 screws up.

[Dano]

they should just hand you the win and loot then, save them the time and money to rebalance/adjust the content.

[Yolteotl]

they should just hand you the win and loot then, save them the time and money to rebalance/adjust the content.

People have been saying this ever since SE even implemented the Echo. You literally wanna waste 30 minutes, to make the Content as easy as possible before u even start it? At which point it still wouldn't be a 'hand out" as opposed to what the Devs see as the ideal potency of the Echo to be.


The point of the Echo is to help ppl bridge the learning curve of the content, the stat buffs do not do that on Titan Ex unless u actually have under-geared members in your party which predominantly isn't the reason why groups fail to clear the content. And the people in opposition always put things in context of extremes, every single time u enter the fight there is no Echo. Assuming the Devs would over-implement the Echo and just throw the clear to the players undermines the intelligence of the Devs. I do personally believe Demon Wall is an example of over-nerfing, but that's not an Echo the bees just flat-out don't exist. There is an Echo for all Trials from Chimera up through Turn 5. The only content where the Echo doesn't do what the purpose of the Echo is, is Titan Ex.

Should a player ever need the Echo for any content at all? No. But it's there and it's there because regardless of any ONE player it takes EIGHT players to progress in the content and since the Echo'ed content is Dated you shouldn't be so severely punished just cause member 8 or member 7 are preventing everyone else from clearing the content, and in the case of Titan Ex it's normally one or two membesr missing a dodge mechanic even if they dont see they missed it cause of the discrepancy between the game locally and the actual server data that spirals the whole attempt into a loss

The people who act like Echo = Hand-out aren't the ones stuck on the content because you either get a choice of under-experienced players on the server to choose from, or experienced players who either don't do the content or expect you to already be done with the content. You definitely aren't the category of players which are also the ones predominantly seeking other ways to adjust the fight instead of stat boosts aka the people who have the mechanics down but dont have the official clear, stuck in-between the people who don't know what they are doing yet as the only one's u can recruit and the one's that have already cleared that demand u have clear or look elsewhere.

[JayCommon]

main thing is that the current Echo buff doesn't assist the completion of the Content and that is the very purpose of the Echo existing.

This is wrong. Enough Echo amassed will allow 5-6 people carry the 2-3 that can't get it done. I know most people ragequit if they don't win on the first run, but some of us don't.

I can beat Titan EX with no problems every time I attempt it, and in fact it's one of my favorite fights in the game. I am not against Echo being applied to dated content, when that Dated content is necessary for completion of the game and to further your understanding of the story's lore. When the Extreme primals were introduced to the player base, Yoshi said that this was "hardcore challenges for hardcore players." I can't speak for the rest of the community, but the fact that Echo even exists in Extreme primals makes me upset. The way these were advertised, to me, made it sound like the "challenge" part of it would persist through time. There is absolutely no story-line involved in the Extreme primals at all to warrant needing to nerf it. "Ermagerd the beast tribes PRAYED EVEN HARDER THIS TIME and got 1902472987616129846214 crystals, and Titan is now Titan x3" That is the story. Plain and simple, people who "can't" beat it without learning it's phases aren't missing out on anything other than an obsolete i90 weapon.

I'm not against the HM versions having Echo applied: They are main content needed to complete your Relic, and won't be "optional" for a large % of the player base. I'm not against the first turns of Coil having Echo appllied: There are major plot points involving the lore of the game, and storyline that every player should get a chance to see. There is literally nothing like this involved with Extreme primals. Why not leave a challenge for players to attain? Is there NOTHING in this game that will have its sanctity left intact?

You say "the groups still face the proper fight in it's pure form everytime they enter". I have two problems with this statement.

#1) You have people going into these fights that haven't had luck beating it in it's "pure form", so cause wipes after heart phase (or just post 3mins) on purpose to gain Echo. This isn't "helping anyone". It's people taking advantage of a system that is supposed to guide you, and manipulating it to get much more power than is ever needed or intended for this fight.

#2) Your suggestion of nerfing the mechanics instead of buffing damage output, will combine with my #1 point and no one will ever have to experience this (or any other) fight in it's pure form. I don't believe the entire player base should suffer from mechanics being just totally removed (or cast times lengthened), because some people can't do it.

I agree with your thoughts on SE "over-nerfing" AK. Demon Wall is a complete joke now for anyone who is above AF gear. Demon Wall....was AWESOME back in vanilla when I was grinding for Toxotes to fill the gaps between my Darklight because the fights were challenging. Demon Wall is a fraction of what it used to be, and I know ascending gear levels for experienced players plays a part in that. However, you think the over-nerfing of AK was a bad idea, and you are basically suggesting they do the same things to Titan EX.

P.S. - This is just a debate. I'm not flaming you, but I highly disagree with your point of view regarding changing the Echo mechanics for one specific fight.

[Fawkes]

Games are supposed to be difficult. They are not supposed to be easy.

[peaches]

You don't find challenging content fun? If there is no challenge then what is the point in doing it at all? If anybody could just waltz in there for the first time and down it no problem then there is literally no point in that content. No challenge, no accomplishment, no fun.

Why not just have an open meadow where you walk to the other end and they hand you loot? This isn't said as an attack at you - to me that is what content with no challenge is like. In the easy content, the enemies and bosses are nothing more than an inconvenient speedbump slowing your progress to reach the end. No accomplishment for beating it when you finally down it after a week or two of learning the fight with your friends. No satisfaction of being able to perfectly dodge everything that is thrown at you meant to absolutely destroy you, because you finally know it like the back of your hand. You've figured out the patterns, know when, where, and how to move, you know how large that explosion radius is. I imagine it'd be similar to the sense of accomplishment and satisfaction when you are finally able to perfectly perform some crazy complex dance, some insanely awesome maneuver or trick in a car/bicycle/skateboard/skis/snowboard/or what ever.

I know people like to play easy games now and then to relax or what ever. I do too sometimes. I'll load up Fallout or something like that, roam the world and shoot some baddies all the while exploring some awesome places. Lately that game for me has been Watch Dogs. But there needs to be difficult content in an MMO, or else the game dies. The entire servers beats the new content in the first day and farms all the loot in a week and has no reason to continue playing. The easy content in this game are FATEs and dungeons.

I understand people find this fight difficult. It IS completely unforgiving. Fail to move out of the bombs? Dead. Fail to move out of landslide or weight of the land? Dead. Don't kill the gaols in time? Dead. Don't kill the adds in the right place? You're probably as good as dead as well.

The difficulty for these people comes from a few things I imagine. First is lag, and NO this has NOTHING to do with people's internet connection. Upgrading your internet won't help at ALL unless you're still using dial-up or something. The issue is with SE. I'm not sure if it's where their servers are located, but I know a large part of it is that EVERYTHING is synced up to their servers instead of being calculated on your computer like literally EVERY other MMO I've played. Another issue is that a lot of people playing this game work or go to school full time, leaving them little time to spend looking for a FC or group of good friends to practice with. Or even the time to practice at it at all. It took me 40 mins to find a Duty Finder queue for Titan Ex as a healer. It can take as long in the Party Finder.

The thing that helped me the most is being on Vent or what ever with my teammates. If somebody knows the fight, they can call out when things are going to happen and where you should move. This helps you familiarize yourself with the fight on a personal level that you just can't get from watching a video. Yes a video helps prepare you but you need to experience it yourself. I think with the people that just can't seem to learn the fight on their own by trying it a few times and failing without understanding why would really benefit from this. Whether or not you participate in the chat (I don't bother, I just listen in and type out any questions I may have) doesn't matter. Just being able to hear someone directing you, helping you learn it helps immensely.

That was my biggest issue for a while. I'd get past one phase and get to the next and die nearly instantly. No time to figure out what I did wrong or what I could do differently because I didn't know what I did wrong. For me, the issue was not knowing the bombs had a MUCH larger explosion radius, and not knowing that during the Superbombs and when Titan jumps you have to be on the very very edge to survive with gear under i90. I'd just die and be wondering WTF happened.

I say this in every Titan Ex I join; They should replace Echo with Bumper. The only thing that makes Titan Ex difficult is that people fall off, causing everyone to just get demoralized and chant "wipe."

Honestly, that usually isn't the problem the people in my Party Finder groups have. Sure it happens to one or two people every 5 or so attempts, but generally it's people dying from avoidable damage multiple times to the point where there's no point rezzing them, as they'll just die to stomps, Titan jumping, or anything really. And with the amount of healing that needs to go out I don't have the MP to raise 6+ times before the heart.