Is Rage of Halone Overpowered in GLA/PLD's Kit?

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Originally Posted by Coramac

RoH is "overpowered" because of the complete package. It is the highest DPS combo for Paladins, best threat combo, and brings extra utility. It really isn't so much that it is overpowered, so much as it is the more simple design of the game in terms of rotations and ability usage.

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Which is why I said Paladin is a simple job. You need threat? Halone combo. You need AoE threat? Flash. Need to take less damage? Defense cooldown.

Yes, Paladin has a very simple design. The root of the cause however is not Rage of Halone. You'd have to completely redesign how Paladin works to give it complexity.

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Originally Posted by Jubez187

NOTE: In the title I am saying "overpowered in GLA/PLD's KIT" this means that I don't think RoH is breaking the game, I'm saying that relative to all the other skills it's too dominate..lowering the decision paths/lowering the skill cap.

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I disagree 100% with this, and I actually think that RoH's massive back load in damage/threat/debuff actually increases the skill cap to optimal usage. The 7.5 second wind up and planning that wind up in advance is infinitely more work than I've had to do tanking in any recent MMO that I can think of.

The back loaded RoH hit may be everything at once, but that's a double edged sword, because it's everything at once. It takes 7.5 seconds to use, and it only hit's one target. Sure when you're beating on a single target, not on interrupt duty, not worried about mana usage it's basically 1 2 3 1 2 3. But, yeah, spank and tank.

Have you stopped to figure out what abilities you can use between the combo and not break the chain? Have you figured out how long you have to use the next ability in the chain and have it not break? When it's worth it to use RoH without the combo bonus?

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Originally Posted by Tanaya

Which is why I said Paladin is a simple job. You need threat? Halone combo. You need AoE threat? Flash. Need to take less damage? Defense cooldown.

Yes, Paladin has a very simple design. The root of the cause however is not Rage of Halone. You'd have to completely redesign how Paladin works to give it complexity.

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I agreed with you post for the most part, but I think many others took it the wrong way. I say mostly because from what I've seen, which is not end all be all, it is not limited to the Paladin but the game as a whole. It's very a very straightforward game.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

I agreed with you post for the most part, but I think many others took it the wrong way. I say mostly because from what I've seen, which is not end all be all, it is not limited to the Paladin but the game as a whole. It's very a very straightforward game.

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I'd say that's because this game is still relatively new. Seeing how Coil works, I'd expect some heavier complexity in the game as more content rolls out.

Admittedly they got rid of a lot of complexity from 1.0 (for the uninformed, you could cross-class every skill on your base class unlike now), but I feel there's enough to keep the game going.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

First, your confusing me here, how does Unchained make you a weaker tank?

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Unlike Paladin, Warrior needs to build up Wrath stacks for the healing bonus.
That healing bonus i what helps a Warrior be less squihy, because it means the healing is more effective, and it takes less casts to top them off.
Even then, a Paladin's shield oath alone still puts them ahead.
Using unchained consumes all of your wrath stacks for a damage increase that would not do anything for you in the long term.
You're making yourself more squishy for a DPS increase that has very little impact.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Your seriously throwing aside a chance to remove Definances damage reduction effects while still reaping ALL the other benefits of Defiance, considering you can just throw up Infuriate to replenish your Wraith and hit a higher Enmity threshold too boot? PLD and WAR's Enmity generation is based entirely on Damage outside of Provoke/Flash, by all accounts you should be making those hits on your combos count as it lets the group hit harder and gives you more threat buffer for times you can't match the enmity generation of other party members.

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You're playing a Warrior wrong.
First of all, Defiance has an enmity multiplier built into it.
Second, Warrior enmity generation WITHOUT berserk/unchained is higher than a Paladin just from doing BB>BB>SE.
Infuriate is there solely so you can utilize inner beast immediately after.
When you're taking 5.5k hp worth of damage as a Warrior, and the average inner beast with a relic weapon is about 1.15k hp out of 7k HP, yea, you're not going to be using infuriate.
MItigating Titna's burst of 5k HP to about 2.7k hp is infinitely better, than using Unchained for a minor boost towards your damage.
If you are having issues holding agro without unchained, then your rotation is messed up and you need to look into it.

There is absolutely no reason for you to be using Unchained unless you so severely outgear the content, in which case, you might as well be popping Steel cyclone for faster mob killing!

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

I might be considering Spikes in terms of Enmity generation,

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Which you do not need to.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

but why wouldn't you be trying for spikes especially on your hate combos, DPS don't just go popping their buffs just to use their weaskest weaponskills and spells, right? WAR has some serious spike potential over PLD and that offsets the lack of Spirits/CoS

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Because you do not need to.
Defiance/Shield oath provide an enmity multiplier on top of your high enmity abilities.
You can very easily pop Berserk/FoF and that would provide you with enough enmity, assuming that the DPS does not horribly over gear you, which, if you have a Relic weapon, won't be happening.
The only time threat would become an issue is cases where the tank cannot attack the target, in which case, you just wasted time from your Unchained, gave up yur wrath stacks, wasted an infuriate that could be used towards mitigating damage (your second role), or have to spend over 20 seconds rebuilding wrath stacks.

You're not a Paladin, stop trying to play your Warrior like one.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

and the only valley in terms of enmity is utilizing Maim/SE for the extra damage and the short pacification on Berserk. You could just spam your BB combo for maximum hate efficiency, but throwing out whatever extra damage you can is going to come back and help the party in the end by making the fight shorter even if only by a few K hp.

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You are thinking Paladin.
Warrior is different.
Maximum hate efficiency involves utilizing SE.
BB>BB>SE>BB>BB>SE
Your DPS is NOT helping the party out at all.
You're making it harder for the healers to keep you up, and you are sacrificing inner beast in the process.
This is something you can only do when you severely outgear the content.
When you are on par with the content, you DONT do it.
If you do that with Caduceus or ADS or any other BC boss, you'd deserve to be kicked out.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Second, there's the ongoing argument how WAR should be played, how it's designed, and how to change it. These forums are very divided on it, as half want it to be like and play like PLD and will play it like one (though WAR's not exactly designed for it), the other half like the micro-managing side of WAR and prefer to keep it that way with some minor improvements like more/faster ways to build Wraith or better self healing on SP and IB.

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I don't need to keep that in mind because that has no influence on the discussion at hand, the fact you bring it up is quite a statement.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

So keeping that in mind, anyone questioning someone elses theory/math always leaves an opening for "Your just changing the situation to fit your own benifit." argument,

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Then it falls down to you to prove it, not ASSUME it.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

but I'm not really going against it I just saw some problems in Kitru's process. For instance Coramac pointed out a big flaw in Kitru's math that I happened to agree with because TP regeneration is constant regardless of your moveset though I may not have neccessarily agreed with his tact in proving his point, and I know there are times your not always attacking so you have extra TP to burn or you need to reserve TP depending on the situation which is something her math doesn't/can't account for. It's like saying Holmgang is completely useless, though in most situations yes I'd agree, but it doesn't mean there's absolutely no use for it (IE: Preventing Knockback on Demon Walls Repel or using it at the beginning of a battle to keep the mob from running if a healer overcures).

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This is why I stated you did not understand the argument.
Kitru's math accounted for the constant regeneration of TP.
TP regeneration is 50 TP every 2.5s (the GCD worth).
If the ability costs more than that, thne you lose TP.
SO heavy swing has a cost of 20.
SKull sunder 10, BB 10. SO on and so forth.

Fracture is 80, so faced against TP regeneration, it has a cost of 30.
For anyone but a Warrior, the damage is 220 potency.

IS it a DPS gain? Yes
Undoubtedly.
Can one say it is TP efficient? Not necessarily.
A skuller sunder has roughly the same potency, and BB/RoH have higher potency as well in a combo for a cost of only 10 TP and enmity generation.
Enmity generation is your prime concern, and while Fracture IS a DPS increase, the increase is rather minor and you can easily go without it.

THAT was Kitru's argument.
That fracture, while a DPS increase, is too small a DPS increase for Tank's to be concerned about, and that the 80TP cost, in consideration of the fact that tp regen is slower than what you spend, is over time a greater loss than just using an enmity generation ability as a tank.

It doesn't even take math to be able to make such a statement as you can make it simply by eyeballing the cost/potency.
The only reason people are arguing about it is because; god knows what reason; they operate under the idea that Tank DPS with fracture is much more different from the DPS without it.
Hint: It isn't.


Second hint: Stop using Unchained. It is a bad ability.
As a Warrior, you don't ever bother with Unchained/Steel Cyclone.
Your enmity generation is more than high enough that you could pop Inner release/Berserk for greater enmity generation.
The 10% higher crit rate a Berserk has also helps provide a larger enmity boost as well.

Hmm, somehow I recall TP regen, at 50, on Paladin, being 60/gcd.
Making it so 1 Fast-Savage-RoH combo puts me back a total of 10 TP.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Second, Warrior enmity generation WITHOUT berserk/unchained is higher than a Paladin just from doing BB>BB>SE

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Wait, let me get this straight. The warrior best enmity chain is NOT Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block, but Butcher's Block > Butcher's Block > Storm's Eye?

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Hmm, somehow I recall TP regen, at 50, on Paladin, being 60/gcd.
Making it so 1 Fast-Savage-RoH combo puts me back a total of 10 TP.

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That is because its an average.
You regen 60 TP every 3 seconds.
Your GCD is 2.5s
So your average regen is 50 TP.

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Originally Posted by Setis_Dagre

Wait, let me get this straight. The warrior best enmity chain is NOT Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block, but Butcher's Block > Butcher's Block > Storm's Eye?

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No, you misunderstood.

The best enmity chain is

HS>SS>BB>HS>SS>BB>HS>MAIM>STORM'S EDGE.

For the sake of keeping it short, BB just means the BB combo chain.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

This is why I stated you did not understand the argument.

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I'm not sure what relevance it really has here, but I was right on Fracture. He understands it. You do not.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

I'm not sure what relevance it really has here, but I was right on Fracture. He understands it. You do not.

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Yes...because in a magical world...substituting an 80TP ability instead of a 70 TP ability is going to cost less.
Right.
Sorry but no, it does not work out that way neither in theory nor in practice.
IN terms of TP/Damage? Yes...Fracture is efficient, very efficient.
But is it more expensive? Yes.
I've no idea how you gained the idea that it is more TP pool efficient, but it isn't.
You will bottom out more quickly including Fracture in your rotation, than you would without it.