Wait what, is that an actual announce? Ok. '#'"' bard.Quote:
Originally Posted by PopeHat
Bard - they broke my job
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10-27-2015, 01:27 PMTiaHeart
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10-27-2015, 08:24 PMrappa
They broke "your game" and how handle new mechanics.
Deal with it. -
10-27-2015, 09:34 PMMaero
So because you have trouble with or do not like Bard and blm now the game is broken?
umm NO -
10-28-2015, 01:04 AMTiaHeart
Rappa, everyone deals with whatever they are dished anyway. Telling them to, dismissing any debates, isnt anymore than a sign of total ignorance. You normally wouldnt wish to ruin anyones fun just for the sake of it, but yeah hope whatever you like gets a 100 percent turnaround lol. Whats the point in that sort of comments despite picking fights? Beats me.
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10-28-2015, 01:53 AMrappa
TiaHeart, simply and clear. Astral145 failed to think brd and blm are broken. Probably in their thoughts are being destroyed due more complexity.
Numbers and raid scene show those job are fine, could they be perfect? Yeah.
I love challenges, i love complexity and i love to push all i can. HW rotations are the way.
BLM's have to handle enochian buff.
Bards with cast and re-apply dots in the correct moment.
Dragoon with Blood of the dragon.
ARR rotation: 1, 2 and 3.
HW rotation: 1, 2, 3 and 4.
They broke the game!!! -
10-28-2015, 01:59 AMkazeandiGive me the number of your crack dealer.Quote:
Originally Posted by rappa
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10-28-2015, 05:20 AMrappaIf you don't know the meaning of irony, i will not teach you.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeandi
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10-28-2015, 08:20 AMTiaHeartSimple? To me your post didnt even answer mine. I just felt like pointing out steppin in whaaaaaaaatever lobby (in this case less happy bards, but again any lobby with a shared set of interests will do) and saying dealwithit is a display of ignorance. If this wasnt some sort of hip gamer jargon/ meme nowadays, people would say "shutup, nobody cares" instead, when clearly they do. You dont do that in a lobby thats "discussing issues". At least I dont see any reason to. You sure wouldnt in any real life situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by rappa
Dealwithit is a very very nasty phenomenon overall. It has even less to say than "gitgud". 100% /provoke. But to each his own i guess. Wont debate further, say what you like (my opinion so dealwithit *rolleyes*)
Also dont take it personal, i just cant get warm with that expression and people who use it frequently. -
10-28-2015, 01:21 PMAlisuIf you're not a Final Fantasy Fan, then you don't know the damage Alexander can do. We're preventing Alexander from awakening or else he would destroy Eorzea just as bad as Bahamut did. Also, Alexander IS a primal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Astral145
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10-28-2015, 04:28 PMAstral145
BRD and BLM is not complex... the devs failed to implement the new skills correctly. Adding a cast time to a heavy proc class like brd was a big mistake and made it feel clunky... WM makes a bard look retarded when changing up animations in mid combat especially when you clip oGCD's after GCD's. BRD atm needs a lot of work. It's way to easy to cancel out of GCD's bc you either slightly moved or popping a oGCD at the wrong time. BRD was designed from the floor up to be a high proc mobile damage dealer that occasionally sings a song to lift the hopes and dreams of a blm to drop the biggest nukes they can. As it stands now BRD has lost all that it was in 2.0 and they didn't even gain a dps boost from WM. BRD is still in the same place as they were in 2.0 except they are now a bow mage with retarded looking animations.
As far as BLM is concerned Adding a timer to enochian was not a good idea for several reasons. The way the server and client works is each side is either receiving packets or waiting for packets at a very fast rate and when you start adding in timers to skills that require specific requirements to be met can cause several issues like server side or client side latency. For example after bliz 4 (which restarts the enochocian timer) you have to apply a fire starter (astral fire) to activate fire 4 in other words in the basic rotation it will be Bliz 4> fire 3 > fire 4 but there is usually a hic up after fire 3 because the client has to send the fire starter application to the server then the server has to apply the fire starter to your rotation then send back the ok to use fire 4, which can take up to 1.5 secs. This leaves you with 2 options either wait for the signal to use fire 4 or pop fire 1 instead to restart the astral fire timer. That in itself is annoying for 3 reasons: one its a dps loss, 2 it's a waist of valuable uptime on enochian and 3 its simply a bad design flaw. The same goes for bliz 3 > bliz 4. You cant use bliz 4 until the Umbral ice is up which falls inline with the same problem that is mentioned above.
The devs need to simplify their calculations so there is far less latency between server and client. Bliz 4 should appear the secound you cast bliz 3 and the same with fire 3 into fire 4. The effect should not hang for up to 1.5 secs. The only way to do that is to apply the effect while the cast is either halfway complete or nearly complete... The way it is now the effect doesn't apply till after you hit the target with either fire 3 or bliz 3. You might say so what but this could be the difference of either getting 1200 or 1250+ on a parser or restarting enochian or losing enochian <-- hince why there shouldn't even be a timer on enochian in the first place. BLM would be a lot better if they take the timer off of enochian and fix the latency issues when fire 4 and bliz 4 is activated. BLM already has to deal with long cast times and astral fire/umbral timers... don't get me wrong its a great idea on paper but it was poorly implemented. On single player game it would have worked out great but on a mmo where there is 1000's of people on the servers at any given will cause to many headaches with this type of battle design... just wait when even more people are subbing up. -
10-28-2015, 10:09 PMAxelDH
I'm enjoying how Bards play now, possibly more than I did pre-minuet. Although, maybe that's because I've been barding so long, it was just nice to have a change! Anyway, I really don't think Bards need an overhaul, but agree with a few of the QoL points brought up, and think that Wardens Paean could be made a little better.
One thing that would be nice, is if more classes than just DRG could apply the Piercing Resist Down debuff! It hurts a Bard/Machinists DPS a lot by not bringing one along.
Magic Attack Down can be applied by MNK & DRK, and Slashing Resist Down can be applied by NIN & WAR... but only DRG can apply Piercing down!
PLD would be the most logical choice I think, although they wouldn't benefit from it themselves. It would make a PLD/MNK combo be able to match a DRK/DRG in terms of team support. -
10-29-2015, 05:47 AMWarlyxor give it to brd/mch already and be done with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelDH
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10-29-2015, 06:17 AMRussWToo logical. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
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10-29-2015, 09:02 AMDuelleQuoted for emphasis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Astral145
Personally, the whole mechanic was wasted on BLM. You could have built a brand new job with that as its core mechanic and would have seen nothing but gains.Quote:
As far as BLM is concerned Adding a timer to enochian was not a good idea for several reasons...
don't get me wrong its a great idea on paper but it was poorly implemented. On single player game it would have worked out great but on a mmo where there is 1000's of people on the servers at any given will cause to many headaches with this type of battle design... just wait when even more people are subbing up.
For example, BLU could have been built around the Enochian mechanic as a way to buff its own damage by forcing the BLU to constantly cast blue magic to keep the effect going (since monster correlations were a thing in FFXI, use that to set up BLU spell combos that would thus elongate Enochian's duration). DRK could have also been built around that mechanic by having Darkside work like it (activate darkside, use actions to perpetuated the effect). -
10-29-2015, 12:12 PMRiceisNiceYou're still going to need to find something to add to BLM to evolve/differentiate their gameplay from 2.0. Not to mention slapping enochian as it to BLU would make them play similar to BLM with that in mind, but if you were to take astral/umbral out of the equation, then the concept of enochian isn't even there and it just becomes akin to heavy thrust or hot shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
As for DRK, they already do this through dork arts to augment certain weaponskills, and they're encouraged to keep darkside active anyway for the damage boost by maintaining their mana. -
10-29-2015, 04:11 PMDuelleThe bulk of the changes made for HW could have been tied to Leylines. Maybe implement a proc system for Fire IV and Blizzard IV.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
The idea I originally had was that the effect could only be elongated if you performed "proper" spell combos using beast correlations (Blue Magic would have to be assigned beast affinities to create such a system). And rather than get it out of the blue (pun intended) at lv56, you'd either start out with it or get it very early level-wise as a way of saying "you know how BLM has astral/umbral and SMN has aetherflow stacks? This is your mechanic (one of my old BLU drafts had it coming in at lv4).Quote:
Not to mention slapping enochian as it to BLU would make them play similar to BLM with that in mind, but if you were to take astral/umbral out of the equation, then the concept of enochian isn't even there and it just becomes akin to heavy thrust or hot shot.
Clicking darkside is very different from, say, having to finish a Power Slash combo to trigger darkside. It would result in different gameplay, for one. Its effects on the rest of the ability list would also be different.Quote:
As for DRK, they already do this through dork arts to augment certain weaponskills, and they're encouraged to keep darkside active anyway for the damage boost by maintaining their mana.
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10-29-2015, 06:24 PMAxelDHWell, its an option... but I don't think it would be as good that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
You would need to give the ability to both Bards and Machinists, for the sake of balance. And as you're always going to have either a Bard or Machinist, this would render one of the Dragoons selling points largely useless!
On the other hand, you aren't always going to have a Paladin, but they might become a little more desirable for groups that happen to have no Dragoon. -
10-29-2015, 11:44 PMRiceisNiceProcs don't work with cast bars is the thing. Espesically if the cast is the same/longer than the GCD, you'd still have the same problem with firestarter, and it only gets more exasperated when BLM's damage is even more contingent on it. And even then, we don't really want three jobs filling the niches of (trying to) being reactive to their procs on a regular basis now do we? That's a reason why I like enochian since it does away with an existing mechanic that doesn't quite work with BLM while still acting as a bonus (since you don't consecutively cast fire I anymore during enochian, and it allows you to fit a third IV before refreshing astral). It also doesn't make much difference if you tie the effects of enochian to ley lines or not (other than the fact that the BLM is certainly confined to that circle now), espesically if they are still going to utilize the same mechanics of astral/umbral and refreshing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
The concept of having a job change later on is fine, provided it works with the job. In the case of enochian, it's practically build around still managing astral/umbral since the IVs do not grant the buff, while at the same time they are required to be in the buff to be used. You need to put something that'll make them feel as if they've gained a new tool kit that makes them stronger, more versatile, or really just better than their 2.0 counterpart. BRD and MCH fail in this regard since the former does not work with their 2.0 skills, while both begin to play extremely similiar to each other because both that skill and their overall gameplay are inherently similiar to each other (or functionally the same in the case of WM/GB). You don't want new jobs to be homogenized in mechanics and gameplay, which is why thought needs to be put into the jobs so playinga MCH or BLU does not feel like you're playing a reskinned or "working better" BRD/BLM (the latter being the case if you were to say, take enochian mechanics from BLM, make a few QoL changes like making it less stingy on the cast timers, and hand it to BLU)Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
But you mentioned that you still want to have the concept of perpetually having dork side active, which you already have to do by using specific abilities (siphon strike, blood price, or even blood weapon without grit). Excess mana gets used up for dork arts, and quite frankly the concept of their mana management is fine, unique to the job, and they are built around utilizing it properly. Otherwise you're looking at having another BotD without the 4th combo hits and disregarding the mana concept if it's purely on duration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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10-30-2015, 12:36 AMWarlyxall the dps can debuff their own dmg weapon type but bard (now mch too) is a bit unfair dont u think? , for the sake of balance i give Warden Paean for it , where i sign?Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelDH
even PLD having piercing debuff wont make it desirable enough in the current meta.... p giving it a bottle of water when is starving is nice, but doesnt fix the issue at hand. -
10-30-2015, 01:26 AMRiceisNiceActually, water is much more valuable than food in that scenario, not even joking since you can go for up to a week without food, compared to water you're not making it past 48 hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
DRG as a standalone job is incredibly powerful as it is, the piercing debuff practically guarantees their spot (since you have to have a bRd or MCH for progression) in the meta. If it's not exclusive to them (and I don't mean take it away, because that means their overall dps takes a nose dive), it would somewhat increase the feasibility of ninja too (trick attack versus battle lianity) -
10-30-2015, 01:32 AMHontaroExcuse me, the casters want to have a word with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
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10-30-2015, 01:54 AMAiseliaBLM and SMN can't. They rely on Foe's or Hypercharge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
So in other words, all of the ranged DPS rely on someone else to boost their damage.
That being said, those damage debuffs that melee can cause are factored into their balance. They're not bonuses that increase 100% of your DPS to 110% of your DPS. They're a part of each class' 100% DPS.
A MNK that isn't using Dragon Kick is not doing 100% of their damage. A DRG that isn't using Disembowel is doing a significantly lower amount of damage (because they're also not using Chaos Thrust in that case).
So basically, if you get a piercing debuff, then expect to also get a lower base damage to compensate for it because the other classes are balanced around their own kit, not balanced disregarding it.
It's the same thing with Heavy Thrust, Fists of Fire, and NIN venoms. You are 100% expected to have those up all the time to do 100% of your damage. If they didn't give those buffs and debuffs, they'd just rebalance them so that they don't need the buffs but still do the same amount.
BRD/MCH, on the other hand, have it better by being balanced around not having the piercing debuff, which means having a DRG actually IS a bonus to them. -
10-30-2015, 02:44 AMkazeandi
Enochian is not a bonus, it's mandatory. Means if you lose it, your DPS drops like a rock, not only by a few percent. That makes losing it a punishing mechanic and I don't find that fun.
They could have made it a stance - raise damage, prolong cast times, or the opposite, for mobility. The fact some people like it does not mean it's a good thing. You're chained to the timer (plus AF/UI) and resource management (mana) and being a turret that ceases to do damage once you have to move. And this "ceasing to do damage" can be fatal when the timing is bad and Enochian falls off.
As for bard, I don't get what purpose the cast times are supposed to have. Kill mobility? At least give the auto attacks back, then WM is a real damage buff. Lower some proc percentages to balance it, procs don't work that well with how WM works anyways. -
10-30-2015, 03:05 AMRiceisNiceIt's a bonus as much as managing DWT effectively is a bonus. It's not "punishing" (and I still feel strongly that people are using this word too loosely) you for failing it because you aren't suddenly going to do less dps for messing up enochian as opposed to not using it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeandi
BRD is a whole can of different worms because WM doesn't interact with their previous skill sets (opposed to enochian which utilizes it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
Whether it's inherent or not, it's still a straight buff to their damage. That's what encourages party composition and synergy. The problem is that the current meta (getting the best setup) is a warrior, 2 melee, ranged and a caster. DRG is unique in the case that their piercing debuff is exclusive to themselves, buffs both ranged classes while competing with a melee spot with 2 others. Ranged and Casters practically go hand in hand with each other and the set up is practically guaranteed.
Outside of raid content, it just means their damage will drop a bit since it's not the ideal setup, but most of those contents are loosely tuned that it doesn't matter much in the long run unless you were speed running. -
10-30-2015, 03:25 AMRinchanNau
I do not believe that BRD/MCH is balanced around not having the piercing debuff. Without it we are actually below an equally geared/skilled off tank WAR for single target DPS. BRD/MCH DPS is most certainly balanced around having a piercing debuff.
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10-30-2015, 03:54 AMDante_VComparing war to bard is disingenuous and on top of this top end bard range for high skill players is almost 200 dps higher than top end warriors. Even without disembowel a good bard will out dps a good warrior or at least be on par with them. You are also loading the comparison in using an absolutely OP dps tank against a Utility DPS. If you were getting beat out by pallys and drks you'd maybe have a more relevant argument but considering the average output of players in this game, a good war can out dps 90% of the current dps player base.Quote:
Originally Posted by RinchanNau
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10-30-2015, 04:02 AMRiceisNiceQuote:
Originally Posted by Dante_V
Quote:
Originally Posted by RinchanNau
None of this is really relevant to the glaring problems with bard to be honest, and it's a different can of worms ("Support tax" as some people have called it). It's also semantics at this point if we're debating whether or not disembowel/foe should be included as part of their dps (because honestly speaking, BRD doing "110%" of their damage is still less than a DRG or casters who does 100%. The numers are one thing (and for the most part, I don't really mind it, I still question the reasoning but meh), functionality is another. -
10-30-2015, 05:01 AMRinchanNauI said single target off tank WAR with equal gear/skill. This is not disingenuous at all. On a dummy a WAR will out DPS an equally geared BRD. It's a bit ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante_V
This obviously can change in actual encounters where the WAR may need to use Defiance and/or disconnect a bit for mechanics. But I think the fact that WAR is already ahead in a dummy encounter is absurd. WAR is considered a tank. They, as a tank job, should not be able to out DPS an equally geared/skilled DPS.
You can argue for BRD's utility. For the increase that Foe brings to caster/healer DPS. But let us not forget how Storm's Eye will increase the other tank and NIN DPS. -
10-30-2015, 06:38 AMHontaroWhy is it that Casters and Ranged go hand in hand though? BLM, for example, has very little utility, so why is the perfect DPS composition not MNK/DRG/NIN/MCH? Since MCH can buff phys. dmg, there is no need for a caster if you don't strictly need magic damage like in T11.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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10-30-2015, 07:21 AMJudge_XeroFor the same reason that making a comparison solely off the single target damage of a class is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hontaro
Casters and Ranged have higher multitarget and AOE potential and share synergy for that.
If class X only did 800 DPS ST damage but could pull 3000 AOE/multi target would you still take it to raid? -
10-30-2015, 07:49 AMRiceisNiceMelee would probably want to punch you in the face for making them cramped on the rear/flank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hontaro
You can't undervalue range for their looser position requirements, especially for fights likes a3 -
10-30-2015, 10:54 AMkazeandiThe problem here is that often enough, it's not you that messes up Enochian and in such cases, you can hardly speak of a bonus anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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10-30-2015, 01:44 PMRiceisNiceBut you still aren't doing less damage for enochian getting ruined as opposed to not being used at all. And even, I personally have not seen fights where it became increasingly apparent that enochian could not be kept up because of mechanics (having both played BLM in expert and having a BLM in my static), unless you're incredibly strict/black-and-white with refreshing it. It's certainly nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be if they are still well represented in end game (espesically when it's supposed to well, be different from SMN, just because it doesn't appeal to you does not necessarily mean the concept of the job is bad or broken)Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeandi
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10-30-2015, 04:15 PMStarkbeaumont
is there a tl;dr version of this whole topic? since I still don't know what is actually wrong with brd atm that even requires fixes? I have seen some pretty numbers from brds and if you have have more than one caster foe's is such a nice thing.
maybe someone can give me a quick to the point summary? -
10-30-2015, 06:20 PMSwissArmyKnife
Dots are core to the gameplay, but no skill to quickly apply dots to get off the ground running.
No way of moving from one target to the next other than hardcasting dots all over again.
WM doesn't build on what's already there, but forces the job to play like something completely different.
Lord knows I've tried to keep an open mind, and Barrage'd Empyreal Arrows are fun to pop off, but I just hit 58 tonight, and getting Paean instead of something more apparently useful has drained all the motivation out of me. I feel like a cheap SMN ripoff you'd find at the flea market, and not a Bard.
I'm afraid I don't really have nothing new to contribute to the discussion. Just getting my voice out there to add to the pile. I should have probably done so a lot sooner, but I got stuck at 52 just before August and am only just gritting my teeth and trying to push through now. -
10-30-2015, 09:48 PMrappaWarden's paean utility: Only have one use in raid, avoid the first pacification from the war. (wolves'den avoid the first detrimental effect received in your members).Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont
Straighter shot: The proc shows up to late. Sometimes, you will cast straight shot to refresh the bonus and see how you get the proc.
Double bloodletter proc: Applying both dots with Iron jaws have the same timer, both crits could trigger at the same time and you feel like wasting them. More aggravated with you dot more than 2 targets.
Flaming Arrow: Unable to put the aoe during cast, a trick is using a macro
/micon "Flaming Arrow"
/ac "Flaming Arrow" x8 times.
Quick noct VS Wide Volley: Same potency, one of them have more TP cost.
Songs: Removing a song cost a GCD :/.
I think they are all QoL they could change. -
10-30-2015, 10:02 PMTsilyithis is my current comp! yey. Except our monk can't raid with us anymore so we are getting a summoner... TO THE BARD MOBILE FOR ME.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hontaro
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10-30-2015, 10:23 PMInferiaeI'm curious about this one. Isn't the tick server based, though, so all DoTs tick at the same time anyway? Or am I missing something?Quote:
Originally Posted by rappa
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10-30-2015, 10:48 PMkazeandiThat's incorrect. I do more DPS with a planned 2.0 rotation than with a forced one once Enochian fell off.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
How can you even doubt that?
Dropping in in the middle, maybe with no mana to boot, no openers ready to pull off - nope, however you shake it, once Enochian is down, damage is abysmal till it's up again (and usable). -
10-30-2015, 11:30 PMRiceisNiceThen I'd like to know what you're even doing to manage that since enochian itself gives a 5% damage buff and higher potency hits compared to fire I and III, unless you're letting astral/umbral fall off, which is failing the class at the base mechanics rather than enochian itself. If you drop enochian in the middle, you're literally going back to 2.0 rotation, you can't be doing less than what it already is unless you're messing up said 2.0 rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeandi