Healers need an overhaul

Why can’t people think of a better ‘gotcha’ moment… but anyway…

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

All I'm seeing in this thread are people taking the "111111111" comment far too literally to the point where I question both their reading comprehension and their level of maturity.

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Can we be anymore surprised? Poke their argument with a little bit of logic & it’ll crumble right away; it’s just the easiest response to deflect the grievances.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Why can’t people think of a better ‘gotcha’ moment… but anyway…



Can we be anymore surprised? Poke their argument with a little bit of logic & it’ll crumble right away; it’s just the easiest response to deflect the grievances.

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It's also a pretty iron clad argument because no other job / role in the game suffers from that utter dumpster fire of a playstyle.

No other job gets objectively worse gameplay the better they personally play.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

So, you have an opinion that you're trying to masquerade as a fact, people are telling you that it's an opinion and one they don't share, you've been banging your head against this wall for three expansions now, and you're still thinking it's everyone else that is the issue?

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This is a fact. Not an opinion.

Take any non-HL fight (savage or ultimate... And again, some healers must be bored in savage); a player who is out of the trial phase of the game, and doesn't play healer once every three months; and a group where no one is doing huge shit, and you'll find yourself spamming 1 button for the majority of the fight.

The question is: how can you argue that this isn't a problem? When healers in this game are intended to be more like hybrids than pure healers? That battles are organized, for us, into "heal windows" and "dps windows"? Which means that literally half of our gameplay is ignored?

And again, I'm only focusing on the most obvious problem. Not on the healing itself, which also suffers from overly repetitive spells, and a lack of personality that becomes glaringly obvious. Nor do we talk about the mana, which is becoming... Useless, really. I find that the astro, in particular, hardly needs to check its mana anymore.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

And again, I'm only focusing on the most obvious problem. Not on the healing itself, which also suffers from overly repetitive spells, and a lack of personality that becomes glaringly obvious. Nor do we talk about the mana, which is becoming... Useless, really. I find that the astro, in particular, hardly needs to check its mana anymore.

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The healing itself is also a large part of the problem. Why is it we have to go to frickin' Savage or Ultimate for our enjoyment in being able to heal? Why can't we actually have that enjoyment outside of it? Essentially every healer who doesn't DPS sits around with their ass on their hands while waiting what seems to be an eternity to heal something because the other players in your group are taking so little damage and healing themselves, even from large pulls! For reference, look at current endgame dungeons. They do not require a Healer to clear. I've seen it and done it myself. You break this trinity that you want to enforce SE if jobs can self-sustain to an extent on their own that Healers aren't needed. This has been the case since P1S and P2S as well, but an all Tank run this tier hasn't happened yet from my knowledge possibly because of the DPS and healing checks.

On the side, AST hasn't had to worry about Mana since they added MP to Cards for the most part; but with Astrodyne in the mix as a personal set of buffs they practically have two versions of Lucent Dreaming for infinite MP. I can see why they use MP as a limiter though rather than useless as you say. I generally think the Piety stat is rather useless and they should not force Piety on us for it. They should instead make a baseline MP regen for the 10k we get and let it be that.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

"Existential crisis"? SMH man.

Look, I can understand that for many healers, it is currently in a state that makes it difficult to enjoy. But when terms like this is just thrown out there, it becomes very easy to see that the problem is not just with healer design. It's also with the healers themselves.

I can't and won't try to speak for things on a savage level. I can only speak as a player who has used all four healers up to Barb EX, and what they are going through isn't an existential crisis.

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It becomes an existential crisis for the role when decent / good players actively aren't bringing healers to fights.

The first two EXs of Endwalker were done without healers at all when they were current, and single healing EX content is common.

Savage has been completed without healers.
Ultimates were completed without healers.

No other role is that disposable. So yes, it literally is an existential crisis for the entire role.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

As usual, I default to if you want more DPS options, play a DPS job.

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Great, lets have Tanks dumbed down to a single main Aggro generating skill, a 30 second DoT, a single AoE, and 10 mitigations or so that they don't really need. Can't have tanks be complex, tank anxiety is real.

Oh wait, the tanks would riot.

"If you want DPS options, then Play a DPS" is not a reasonable critique or response because it's not applied evenly or fairly across the roles. There is a blatant double standard and has been for years.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

So, you have an opinion that you're trying to masquerade as a fact, people are telling you that it's an opinion and one they don't share, you've been banging your head against this wall for three expansions now, and you're still thinking it's everyone else that is the issue?

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Yeah, FF14's healers are sooooooo well designed. Peak gameplay. 1111111111111111111. So fun. How could I have missed it.

1111111111111111 is bad game design.

I don't understand, do people seriously not grasp why people are complaining? Or are they being deliberately contrarian?

Even when you completely ignore the complete lack of care healers have had, you guys are also acting being pretty damn revisionist. There was a time where this game DID have engaging healing kits, and engaging tank kits. That was a reality a lot of people are familiar with, and SE is too, considering how many times they have to backtrack things like Energy Drain, lilies and AST in general. Those times were not "the epitome of good class design", but the solution was not to completely trash the entire role because of the NATURALLY higher skill floor. Every single time someone comes in here and is like "Uhh, healing is fine actually!!!" you get the most insipid defenses.

There could have been a reality where WHM was fixed from the SB issues, and the rest of the healers didn't have all their direct offensive options nerfed down to AST levels with none of the associated CPM or support focus to compensate. Aero III existed. Miasma II existed.

You could write paragraph after paragraph after essay after log analysis after video analysis of the myriad of issues we're stuck with, but it really boils down to one simple truth.

Like everywhere else, instead of trying to placate both the less-skilled and more-skilled players of the healer role by having a reasonable skill floor and a reasonable skill ceiling for improvement if desired, they FORCED the skill ceiling down, so that if you actually want to push yourself in any way, you are limited by your job kit.

It isn't a matter of "iF yOu wAnt To DpS, pLaY a DpS!!!!" Man, until recently, it wasn't uncommon for healers to do MORE damage while having more to do with their multiple dots and healing kits than tanks! Who had/have ACTUAL(if really dumbed down) rotations and sometimes, even responsibilities that are not DPS related! Kinda debatable to be honest though, things are pretty bad across the board.

Expansions are supposed to expand on a game. All that Square Enix has been doing to healing and combat is remove things people like, and add nothing of substance in their place. They don't explain why they are doing this, outside of "trying to close the gap between players." Remember this???

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...png?1660254020

Of course they are complaining. They are not rewarded or even acknowledged for their dedication and investment. If anything, they're actively scorned. Even if you aren't invested in the healing role, or in content that isn't completely braindead, it doesn't change the fact that the role refuses to return to it's roots, continues to devolve as time goes by, and has no one on the development team who is acting as an advocate for the concerns of the established healer players. Like, I don't know why healing isn't allowed to be fun outside of either the initial progression of the encounter, or when your team has the collective braincell of a plankton. Bad faith all around. But if you get rid of all the old healers, you might have brand-new healers who don't have the knowledge the role used to be really engaging, until they run into the same non-existent skill ceiling regardless of the content they run, and get infected with the same hopeless malaise everyone else who cares about job design has now. "Existential-crisis"? I'd say that's an understatement if anything. It's a slow heat death, where every bright spark of creativity and meaningful gameplay expression in the job kits are snuffed out by Square Enix. It is inevitable, for everyone, regardless of how hard we fight or in spite of any small win we get where SE tearfully and regretfully gives us an inch with a "difficult to prog" raid tier after raking us over the coals for several miles.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Don't worry, you have me for that. I don't feel bad about it. Because I feel like at this point I've seen every single angle on the Sylphie attack vector. I'm beyond over it and uninterested in a "good faith discussion" about it. Because there really isn't common ground. You see, every discussion in this vein starts seemingly neutral. I want X, they want Y, there's a vague attempt to describe a world where X and Y have their time in the sun. But push them on it even a little bit and they start stamping their feet and revealing what they actually want: not X. They don't want Y. They want -not X-. Suggest a skill ceiling and the wailing and gnashing of teeth begins.

These people don't want low skill floors. They want nonexistent skill ceilings. They don't want accessible content, not really. What they want is healing to be an easy path to free stuff. Paying attention to your job's resources is bad. Even the existence of a suboptimal-but-still-present GlareMedica2 rotation that could satisfy the zero interactivity isn't enough. They want the lazy no-thought gameplay to be the optimal gameplay. They don't want to climb the mountain before them. They want to bulldoze it down, walk into the rubble, and declare they're at the peak now. They want an easy job that they can be told they're masters of by dint of unlocking the job stone.

Prod literally any Sylphie who claims they sympathize with the desire for more complex gameplay and that's the tantrum you're going to get. Every single time.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Truth time. This is how I feel. I guess I am a slyphie...

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It's inevitable. We've already lost. If you're at, close to, or even trying to reach the skill ceiling, you are worthless to Square Enix.

if you're not happy go play healer in ESO, WOW, GW2, New World, Bard/pally in Lost Ark, Overwatch even.
So many options,

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Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

if you're not happy go play healer in ESO, WOW, GW2, New World, Bard/pally in Lost Ark, Overwatch even.
So many options,

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See? Doesn't matter what you say. The Sylphie crew is pleased with stupidly designed healers. There are no productive discussions to be had with them. Wanting good game design or complexity is the opposite of what they want. Spamming Glare good. Using brain bad. "Go away, we like dancing around and not contributing while still getting rewarded for it." You'll get the same tune out of them no matter what you input.

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Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

if you're not happy go play healer in ESO, WOW, GW2, New World, Bard/pally in Lost Ark, Overwatch even.
So many options,

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Telling healers to go elsewhere is part of the problem of the current healer shortage.

And it also doesn't fix the issues the role has of which there are several.

It wouldn't be a problem if all healing in content was like how it was at ARR and HW when they were current content, where a healer had to prioritize healing, and being able to DPS was a reward. Back in those days we took a LOT of damage from everything, and if the healer wasn't good, or if the tank couldn't hold aggro, that was it. If they brought back the damage level to how it was when 2.x and 3.x were current content, I don't think you'd ever see another complaint about healers being boring. The only reason they're boring now is simply because of how easy it is to heal up the damage.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It wouldn't be a problem if all healing in content was like how it was at ARR and HW when they were current content, where a healer had to prioritize healing, and being able to DPS was a reward. Back in those days we took a LOT of damage from everything, and if the healer wasn't good, or if the tank couldn't hold aggro, that was it. If they brought back the damage level to how it was when 2.x and 3.x were current content, I don't think you'd ever see another complaint about healers being boring. The only reason they're boring now is simply because of how easy it is to heal up the damage.

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1. SE doesn't want to increase healing from dungeons up
2. Still doesn't fix the issue of healers being boring in MSQ and solo content of which SE is trying to make a solo experience
3. My quote below of "Good healers are going to have down time" still remains an issue
4. We have too many healing tools still and trying to match damage to them all is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

Healing is only boring if you play it well, if you're trash at it and your group is equally trash, it's quite exciting.

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Also, let's not forget this little tidbit of a post. So the healer role actively PUNISHES you the better you get at it and the party becomes at your job. Do you not see the flaw in this logic??? No other role punishes you for increasing your skill level. And you even admit that it's boring in your own post! Please tell me you're being facetious with this!

...so uh, remember that one user who had fun playing CNJ at lv 90 and we were all like "What...??"

Turns out she was right :^)

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

...so uh, remember that one user who had fun playing CNJ at lv 90 and we were all like "What...??"

Turns out she was right :^)

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I can't believe we've reached the point where being a toxic griefer is the way to appropriately play a healer now!

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

I can't believe we've reached the point where being a toxic griefer is the way to appropriately play a healer now!

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/shrugs A more limited kit is what healers have been asking for since it requires more thought than the bloated mess we currently have and thus more engagement with the class...

That we need to limit ourselves (going so far as to remove a job crystal) speaks volumes I think. Doesn't excuse going into DF as a CNJ though.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

1. SE doesn't want to increase healing from dungeons up
2. Still doesn't fix the issue of healers being boring in MSQ and solo content of which SE is trying to make a solo experience
3. My quote below of "Good healers are going to have down time" still remains an issue
4. We have too many healing tools still and trying to match damage to them all is absurd.

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1. That's too bad for them, because they're not going to shut out the whining unless they make healing more difficult.
2. I do agree, which is why I'd prefer things to do that liven it up, like AST's cards, and once upon a time (before ShB) SCH's 3 DoTs and Bane.
3. I know, which is why I want more downtime love. We can have more difficult healing and things to do in downtime, they are not mutually exclusive.
4. Which is why I want to cut down on them. In ARR and HW healing was limited with few oGCDs, and because of that healing was a hell of a lot more fun since you had to actually use GCD heals. While I don't expect them to just drop every oGCD in the game, it may be time for them to look at ways to make GCD healing more required. Like I don't know, a debuff caused by an area or a timed one that shuts off all oGCDs on healers forcing just GCD healing.

All the healers that want a fix just need to stop play healer for now. The moment content take over 1h to get in will force SE to act.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

The healing itself is also a large part of the problem. Why is it we have to go to frickin' Savage or Ultimate for our enjoyment in being able to heal? Why can't we actually have that enjoyment outside of it? Essentially every healer who doesn't DPS sits around with their ass on their hands while waiting what seems to be an eternity to heal something because the other players in your group are taking so little damage and healing themselves, even from large pulls! For reference, look at current endgame dungeons. They do not require a Healer to clear. I've seen it and done it myself. You break this trinity that you want to enforce SE if jobs can self-sustain to an extent on their own that Healers aren't needed. This has been the case since P1S and P2S as well, but an all Tank run this tier hasn't happened yet from my knowledge possibly because of the DPS and healing checks.

On the side, AST hasn't had to worry about Mana since they added MP to Cards for the most part; but with Astrodyne in the mix as a personal set of buffs they practically have two versions of Lucent Dreaming for infinite MP. I can see why they use MP as a limiter though rather than useless as you say. I generally think the Piety stat is rather useless and they should not force Piety on us for it. They should instead make a baseline MP regen for the 10k we get and let it be that.

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I definitely agree with that too. There are two possibilities, overall: increase the damage taken drastically, so that we have something to do and dps is only open to good healers. Or assume the hybrid aspect completely, but in the latter case we need to set up real dps combos that would put buffs/debuffs, fully exploit the other healer roles (esuna exists, let us use it), replace the shortcut that lucid dream has become with a combo, and so on.

Ideally, we'd have both at the same time. But it's unlikely to happen.

Edit: I just quickly checked the post on "you want more engaging content ? Go Ultimate". Instead of spreading myself all over the place, I'm just going to give one last shout out here.

As long as there are people who will make the anxiety argument; as long as some people are able to tell you that the norm should be a long walk without any difficulty (never mind that this is what ultimately brings the most toxicity by allowing you to do instances without ever interacting with your group); as long as they assume that those who complain are only ultra-HL players who have only played healer since birth; and as long as there are people who confuse "the role needs a rework" with "I hate this game" (> "Go play WOW brrr"), we'll never get anywhere.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Is it really that hard for you to imagine Heavensward? Did you hit your head at some point?

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Why do I need to imagine it when I actually played it? In fact, I remember it well enough to say I don't want to see it again. One of the question I used to wonder is "is SE dev obssessed with DoT?". Like back then, almost every classes (save 2?) have a DoT, some has 2 and I was always wonder like ... why? Maintaining 2 DoT isn't my ideal of fun, not on any class, and especially not healer.


And are you people capable of doing discussion without dissing out slight and insult every other response? No wonder why this thread became a massive echo chamber for the most part.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

As for Healers, they're in a far worse position in PLD if you look at their kit. If you played Healer and took a minute to figure out what each and every single thing in the role's kits does, you'd see that it's about 90% Healing for nearly all Healers. Their two damage buttons are just a DoT and a generic attack spell. They've been desperate for something new for the role for years.

One last thing before I go, too: Don't act like Healers share that same mindset and generalize it.

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Here is what you don't realize: just because you consider that as a problem, doesn't mean I do. And even if two people agree on a problem, doesn't mean they will have the same solution in mind.

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

If you are so big-brained to pull out logs and understand them, and fail to understand how a comment is being hyperbolic and merely symbollic of JUST HOW BLOODY BLAND AND POORLY DESIGNED HEALERS ARE, then you all have a problem.

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As a healer main since 2.0, especially a WHM main at that up until this expansion, I looked at the post in the last 3-4 pages and just shake my head because for the most part, they're all hyperbolic.

Hyperbolic is justified if it's used sparingly. But when people hyperbolic EVERY SINGLE argument they make then you gonna get called out for being over-dramatic, and deservedly so. You know why something is called "symbolic"? When everything is symbolic then nothing is symbolic anymore.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

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SE has stated that they have no intention of increasing healing requirements to that level (and based on the "healer shortage" in the most recent tier will continue to be discouraged from doing so), so it's unlikely they'll ever make that type of content. How do you feel about healers having more dps tools for solo content (e.g. solo instances in MSQ and job/role quests)?

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Why do I need to imagine it when I actually played it? In fact, I remember it well enough to say I don't want to see it again. One of the question I used to wonder is "is SE dev obssessed with DoT?". Like back then, almost every classes (save 2?) have a DoT, some has 2 and I was always wonder like ... why? Maintaining 2 DoT isn't my ideal of fun, not on any class, and especially not healer.


And are you people capable of doing discussion without dissing out slight and insult every other response? No wonder why this thread became a massive echo chamber for the most part.




Here is what you don't realize: just because you consider that as a problem, doesn't mean I do. And even if two people agree on a problem, doesn't mean they will have the same solution in mind.

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

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Unfortunately, that will never be a viable solution because SE wants ilvl sync to be as high as it is for accessibility. Healer toolkits are tuned for the Min ILVL, which is where the healing is most intensive. Even so, people doing normal mode content with above average ilvl can still struggle with basic healing because people's average skill levels can be vastly different. Titania for example, is where I met most healers struggle because they simply can't heal a bad tank. They would sometimes fail without 2-3 Echo buffs. Meanwhile another healer won't have to GCD heal at all without echo because they are good at using healing abilities efficiently. At most, they use 2-3 GCD heals and go back to 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 attack spam. This vast gap in player skill level can't handle such a drastic increase in damage in normal mode content if ilvl is balanced to keep healing difficult. The same problem applies to Savage to a lesser degree (because people in savage are required to play well, but it's still there).

Fights that are fairly difficult and requires more healing eventually get so much leeway due to party's gear ilvls increasing (for healer stats, party's HP, def stats, & party healing buff effects) to the point that downtime will always inevitably come back. This is just the nature of ilvls and making content readily accessible for everyone to clear.

If casual healers cannot handle the skill floor (which is just healing well), then having having increased damage will never be a possible option to the solution of removing healer downtime. The only effective solution would be to make healer downtime more fun through other means. The most cost-effective / least impactful way to go about this (without changing all the old content's encounter design) will be adding DPS skills because DPS skills is a last-priority focus for healers. After ensuring no one needs more healing, they can focus on their secondary role - which currently is DPS (Skill ceiling).

And this was discussed many many MANY pages ago in both this thread and in the "If you want more engaging content, go play ultimate" thread". This is the only logical conclusion healers can make for engagement while making this role accessible. Everyone who tried arguing against healer getting more DPS skills kept on trying to deny it, which is what led to this "echo chamber", because at this point, SE has been quite literally showing that every other option isn't working and hasn't been working for years now. Otherwise, there wouldn't be people asking about why the healer role is so empty right now in the interview.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

As a healer main since 2.0, especially a WHM main at that up until this expansion, I looked at the post in the last 3-4 pages and just shake my head because for the most part, they're all hyperbolic.

Hyperbolic is justified if it's used sparingly. But when people hyperbolic EVERY SINGLE argument they make then you gonna get called out for being over-dramatic, and deservedly so. You know why something is called "symbolic"? When everything is symbolic then nothing is symbolic anymore.

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This is, again, emblematic of how the current healer design white knights go at it. "I press 1 several hundred times in every single instance, all the way up to Ultimate fights" "Hyperbole!" *provides logs showing that everyone, from the most to the least skilled, does this* "Hyperbole! Hyperbole!"

Casting Glare. Hundreds of times. Over and over. And over and over. Is. Not. Fun.

Spamming Cure. Hundreds of times. Over and over. Is. Not. Fun.

Give us interesting kits, Square Enix. Kits that interact with themselves in more than the most shallow of places. Kits that build to things, that allow us to combine things together to make them more than the sum of their parts. Kits that flow well and reward the skillful application of their abilities.

But instead, we have two camps. A group of people who argues for ^ that, and a group of people shoving their fingers in their ears going "LALALALALA you're being HYPERBOLIC! Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare is fun actually! We need more places to spam Medica 2! That's how healers become more fun!"

But if they increase healing intensity then that poor sprout BLM cannot progress the story because some pug healer cannot handle SoS Normal healing requirements =(((

/s

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Here is what you don't realize: just because you consider that as a problem, doesn't mean I do. And even if two people agree on a problem, doesn't mean they will have the same solution in mind.

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

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As I, and many other more important people, have said in this topic, that "solution" is not going to happen at this point. People don't necessarily disagree with fixing it by making healers heal more (though some certainly do), but they have realized that in order to do something like that, they would need to essentially completely change the way they design encounters as well as completely changing EVERY existing encounter to be more heal intensive to stop a new expansion from being a brick wall for new people that hit it.

Fact of the matter is that SE has determined their design philosophy is to make the "healing" part of being a healer extremely approachable. Which means, making the requirement healers have (i.e. healing) be very easy to do to make a low skill floor for people. You're asking for them to change their encounter design, change their role design, and raise the skill floor which ISN'T going to happen. People asking for a more worthwhile DPS rotation have already realized that is the case and are asking for something much much simpler that has the possibility of not affecting the skill floor, encounter design, and role design AT ALL.

Adding a better DPS kit is literally just making a 30 second "ideal" rotation do around the same damage as 11-12 Glares and a Dia (Ideally a bit more to reward people for performing the more complex rotation, but even if it's the same damage it would be better). Something that is infinitely easier to do than redesigning the entire game.

If you want more healing instead, then anything that lowers damage (e.g. Tank Defensive Cooldowns, Feint, Addle, the Ranged DPS abilities that are all the same, etc) is MUCH more valuable, shifting the entire landscape of balance towards not only jobs that have those abilities, but more importantly, players that use them. Thus, not only increasing the skill floor on healers, but also on DPS. Increasing the skill floor on DPS, most of which are probably completely unaware of the usefulness of the abilities mentioned, means more DPS players who people will criticize, which means more negativity in the game.


What we're doing is asking for a handout of a couple of dollars, you're asking for a couple thousand. We're just trying to be realistic.

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Originally Posted by Conchoidal

SE has stated that they have no intention of increasing healing requirements to that level (and based on the "healer shortage" in the most recent tier will continue to be discouraged from doing so), so it's unlikely they'll ever make that type of content. How do you feel about healers having more dps tools for solo content (e.g. solo instances in MSQ and job/role quests)?

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Hard agree, raising healer requirement floor will only exasperate the issue and you will see less healers and not more. Healing needs to be accessible from a design perspective and that’s why we’ve seen issues this raid tier especially p8s. When the going gets tough, it seems like more people pack up and get going then dig deep.

The desire anyways is for healing to be engaging, not difficult.

I think that both the healing and damage should compliment each other. Proc based incentives like freecure (except don’t fish for freecure it’s terrible), but if cure 2 gave a chance to something like make your next dot, or next couple Clare’s stronger, and vice versa if you casted a couple glares in a row, it would boost the power of your next GCD heal by a stacking amount.

Damage and healing should compliment each other, it will incentivize good habits and potentially change the way you may approach specific mechanics in encounters.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Why do I need to imagine it when I actually played it? In fact, I remember it well enough to say I don't want to see it again.

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lmao you people are unreal. "actually I do remember, and am capable of conceptualizing, when healers had marginally involved damage toolkits, and I don't want to go back I would rather healers stay braindead" incredible

If SE really wanted to make healing more accessible, why did they not reduce how uniquely punishing it is for a healer to die instead of getting rid of the DPS buttons that were fun to use in all content in the game?

Taking SCH for example:
You lose your fairy
You lose your built up fairy gauge
You lose all of your Aetherflow
You get res-sickness which makes your heals worse and you take more damage in turn, making dying again to raidwides extremely likely.
SCH also has no way to quickly patch itself up without losing its res invuln, as without Aetherflow/Fairy SCH's healing kit is 3 GCD heals and protraction

Further still, the new "design" direction is massively exacerbating the original stated goal of "having healers focus on healing more than DPSing" because of how many free heals you get and how easy it is to do DPS. You're expected and pressured to DPS over anything else because "it's only 2 buttons" and it makes having to use GCD heals feel absolutely awful because of how large in potency your nukes are, and those constitute around 80% of your total damage. New healers are conditioned to avoid their GCDs entirely because there's basically nothing to heal in normal content, and getting better means doing more damage and healing less by how healers are designed. But when "getting better" just means you spam the same spell over and over, can you really blame most people for not wanting to play healer?

We have way too many oGCDs. "Well, SE should make content that pushes our oGCDs" will never, EVER make spamming Broil Broil Broil Broil fun. Making content that does push full use of a healer's kit is great, but when that kit has anti-fun things like 1111 spam built in, there's nothing you can do to hide from the fact that at the core of the issue, 1 button spam is not fun.

The solution is incredibly simple, and while we're on the topic of SCH, old SCH shows exactly how well an expanded DPS kit that relies more on GCD healing works within the constraints of the game, and how it would still work in Endwalker. I'm not going to go in depth on SCH and DoTs since it's been explained many times, but just that having DPS options that enable us to GCD heal more without hurting our DPS or hurting it entirely are good, be that DoTs, Lilies or other systems. If SE culled oGCD bloat like Fey Blessing, Protraction, etc in exchange for DPS buttons and having to GCD heal more, I wouldn't complain at all. Design these jobs for the game that they are in, and focus on fun first and foremost.

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Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

if you're not happy go play healer in ESO, WOW, GW2, New World, Bard/pally in Lost Ark, Overwatch even.
So many options,

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You know, at first I thought that this was a troll or a joke. But if enough healers bounce out and duty/party finder breaks down because of a lack of healers. Just maybe SE will give one the healers a second look. And 6 or 9 months down the line it'll get a 10pot buff to it's attack.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

You know, at first I thought that this was a troll or a joke. But if enough healers bounce out and duty/party finder breaks down because of a lack of healers. Just maybe SE will give one the healers a second look. And 6 or 9 months down the line it'll get a 10pot buff to it's attack.

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Introducing party duty support, where a trust can replace your hea- I mean missing party member(s) for when there's not enough people to make up a full party on raid nights!

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

As a healer main since 2.0, especially a WHM main at that up until this expansion, I looked at the post in the last 3-4 pages and just shake my head because for the most part, they're all hyperbolic.

Hyperbolic is justified if it's used sparingly. But when people hyperbolic EVERY SINGLE argument they make then you gonna get called out for being over-dramatic, and deservedly so. You know why something is called "symbolic"? When everything is symbolic then nothing is symbolic anymore.

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Ok...? So your marbles are sprawled all over the bathroom floor. Noted. Thanks for the hint, nice knowing you can't communicate like a normal human being and can't take being called out on having a boring system.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Spamming Cure. Hundreds of times. Over and over. Is. Not. Fun.

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Thanks for providing an example of hyperbolic and overdramatic. I rest my case as nothing else needed to be said.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

lmao you people are unreal. "actually I do remember, and am capable of conceptualizing, when healers had marginally involved damage toolkits, and I don't want to go back I would rather healers stay braindead" incredible

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If the 3.0 version is your "idea" of a good healer DPS model, I want none of it.

If you want to argue healer back then was more fun, then yes. But it was more fun because back then you have to manage your aggro, you have to manage your MP, you have to hard-shield not because someone gonna die, but to actually solve mechanic, you actually have to heal because the oGCD kit was fairly limited. It was FUN because it kept healer busy doing healer things, not because I had to maintain 2 DoTs.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

And this was discussed many many MANY pages ago in both this thread and in the "If you want more engaging content, go play ultimate" thread". This is the only logical conclusion healers can make for engagement while making this role accessible. Everyone who tried arguing against healer getting more DPS skills kept on trying to deny it, which is what led to this "echo chamber", because at this point, SE has been quite literally showing that every other option isn't working and hasn't been working for years now. Otherwise, there wouldn't be people asking about why the healer role is so empty right now in the interview.

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You're the first one who said it and probably won't be the last, so I'll response the same way I always did. That's not my problem.

As far as I can see SE is neither listening or doing whatever side wanted, and until they reach a decision, I will continue to advocate for my preferred solution to the problem. I don't get why people from the other of the arguments keep bringing up this and that and how I should just gave up and shut up because "SE not gonna do what you want anyway".

Well, have they done what you want?

As far as I see they haven't. Hell, if anything the trend seems to be the moving away the exactly the opposite direction of what you and yours are asking. But I don't see people see that as a reason for them to stop talking, so why should I?

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Thanks for providing an example of hyperbolic and overdramatic. I rest my case as nothing else needed to be said.



If the 3.0 version is your "idea" of a good healer DPS model, I want none of it.

If you want to argue healer back then was more fun, then yes. But it was more fun because back then you have to manage your aggro, you have to manage your MP, you have to hard-shield not because someone gonna die, but to actually solve mechanic, you actually have to heal because the oGCD kit was fairly limited. It was FUN because it kept healer busy doing healer things, not because I had to maintain 2 DoTs.




You're the first one who said it and probably won't be the last, so I'll response the same way I always did. That's not my problem.

As far as I can see SE is neither listening or doing whatever side wanted, and until they reach a decision, I will continue to advocate for my preferred solution to the problem. I don't get why people from the other of the arguments keep bringing up this and that and how I should just gave up and shut up because "SE not gonna do what you want anyway".

Well, have they done what you want?

As far as I see they haven't. Hell, if anything the trend seems to be the moving away the exactly the opposite direction of what you and yours are asking. But I don't see people see that as a reason for them to stop talking, so why should I?

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Point still stands and is never addressed:

What are healers supposed to do when there's no healing required? Why is their downtime engagement not given the same weight as the other two roles?

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

If the 3.0 version is your "idea" of a good healer DPS model, I want none of it.

If you want to argue healer back then was more fun, then yes. But it was more fun because back then you have to manage your aggro, you have to manage your MP, you have to hard-shield not because someone gonna die, but to actually solve mechanic, you actually have to heal because the oGCD kit was fairly limited. It was FUN because it kept healer busy doing healer things, not because I had to maintain 2 DoTs.

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None of those things have particularly changed outside of simply relative healing requirements.

We did not manage aggro outside of very rarely holding Sacred Shroud for until after a Cure III.

We did not particularly (need to) manage our MP, nor did we have any effective means to do so since lost to us; we simply avoiding overhealing, just as we do now, and Bards and Machinists took care of the rest.

People very frequently used shields when they could have used a straight heal, so long as the shield had greater ppgcd.

The only thing that changed kit-wise was that buttons worth of utility and, especially, offensive actions were replaced with redundant healing oGCDs.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Thanks for providing an example of hyperbolic and overdramatic. I rest my case as nothing else needed to be said.

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See how the Sylphie totally ignores the very real, very common hundreds of casts of Glare in every single level of content? "Hyperbole!" "Overdramatic!". It's because they're utterly incapable of admitting that one of the primary features of current healers is unfun. We've told them over and over and over again how "just make us heal more" wouldn't solve this issue. They don't care. They -enjoy- the glarespam, but even then they realize that makes them sound lazy, so they dodge and weave and dodge away from saying anything about it other than either calling it hyperbolic, saying it doesn't happen, or ignoring it entirely.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

None of those things have particularly changed outside of simply relative healing requirements.

We did not manage aggro outside of very rarely holding Sacred Shroud for until after a Cure III.
.

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Lucid also had a 2m CD at that time so generally you were using both at the same time in most circumstances if the DPS forgot what the Diversion ability button was.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

None of those things have particularly changed outside of simply relative healing requirements.

We did not manage aggro outside of very rarely holding Sacred Shroud for until after a Cure III.

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That's not true. Unless you have tanks who willingly to keep the stance up all the times. Maybe I was unlucky but I did not see those tanks a lot back then, both PF and static.

Also, are we just gonna repeat the same argument circle we had a month ago? I'll just give you a short summary of what I said back then:

- Did I say the system in 2.0 - 3.0 was perfect? No.
- What I said was elements back then should be enhanced, refined, and expanse.

I don't know why people saying stuffs like "oh as long as your tank is good, your ninja know his thing, your BRD/MCH take care of MP .etc." then it's not difference for healer as if they're something taken for granted.

First: they're not taken for granted.
Second: even when you succeed in doing that, it still means there are layer of consideration and coordination to ensure a smooth run. Things that are now completely absent.

Like I said a month ago, if you keep stripping raw element away because "it's janky, not working too well" instead of refining and improving them than you eventually end up with a skeleton. Hence, I present you today's healer.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Point still stands and is never addressed:

What are healers supposed to do when there's no healing required? Why is their downtime engagement not given the same weight as the other two roles?

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Why you asking me to address that? Do I look like someone who worked for SE? I feel like this is something people try to argue with me always conveniently overlook: I never said the current healer is fine, but like ... you guys always seem to make out that what's I'm saying.

I never argue the point healer need more active engagement, the only thing I'm argue is "more DPS button" is not the solution to that, and I think that offend a lot of people. All I know is currently healers have a problem, but I'm not gonna try and pretend I know exactly what SE's vision/direction with the role.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Also, are we just gonna repeat the same argument circle we had a month ago? I'll just give you a short summary of what I said back then:

- Did I say the system in 2.0 - 3.0 was perfect? No.
- What I said was elements back then should be enhanced, refined, and expanse.

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Sorry for misinterpreting, but it's a little confusing to imagine exactly what do you want for this game, because earlier you said

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

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I find present healer's kit and past healer's kits to be vastly different from each other. And to me, it ultimately comes to a matter of "quality over quantity". I don't care for healer kits today because we have crap like Cure II, Tetra, and Afflatus Solace which all do the same exact thing. As well as Medica, Cure III, Plenary, Lilybell which also all do the same exact thing. I don't care if a fight is designed where I'm forced to constantly use these on cooldowns and spam GCD heals because that's not engaging or fun, it's Glarespam on the opposite spectrum. There is barely any interaction going in the kits, and the newer heals from ShB and EW do not add anything that I feel like is needed to heal because I already had stuff to heal the party. It's just heal, strong heal, stronger heal.

These elements are extremely different than when we were much more reliant on our GCD heals since oGCD heals were scarce and sparce. I consider today's kits to be faaar from expanding and enhancing past iterations. So what exactly do you want to see in the future for healers?

Pretty sure I said this in another thread, but I want damage tools because the powerful, redundant heals are not interesting. Cutting those out will make us more reliant on the GCD heals, which I consider to be more engaging. There, we would be constantly being questioned, "Should I do damage or should I heal? Which would support my party the most?", and this is what I think makes an engaging support kit in any genre of games.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I never argue the point healer need more active engagement, the only thing I'm argue is "more DPS button" is not the solution to that, and I think that offend a lot of people. All I know is currently healers have a problem, but I'm not gonna try and pretend I know exactly what SE's vision/direction with the role.

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So tell me your alternative. If it’s not the mind-numbing spam of GlareDosisMaleficBroil, then what is it? Because we’ve been through this old, old argument numerous times. What the bloody hell makes healers so grating that they aren’t playing the role and it’s bleeding player usage? There are two philosophies that each side has in the matter.

SE’s side: “We need to make sure that the casual player base can play healer, so we double downed on our reset in Shadowbringers to keep them nice and simple. At the Savage level, we’ve tried to make healing more difficult this tier with more damage, so the answer is more incremental damage adjustments in fight design.”

Healer Playerbase’s side: “Our job has been outrageously ignored and insulted via the “Go Play Ultimate” remark by the developers after we have provided multiple pages of feedback in our sub-forum and now in General Discussion. The problem with the job is that it is not fun rotationally, since you are spamming one button and sometimes hitting two with bells and whistles attached. The way the game is designed for the healing aspect is very scripted to the point that it’s like any other mechanical song and dance. The fact that we have a double standard compared to all other roles in terms of rotation is unacceptable. To draw people back, we need to focus on the core problem: Healer Downtime. What do healers do when there’s nothing to heal?”

These two come into conflict when they discuss healer downtime, as the developers are afraid that by making systems too complex, they’ll have a repeat of Heavensward and Stormblood, when that is not the case currently. The issues that were present in those two expansions have been removed at Shadowbringers with the big reset. Now they need to build upon their current systems once more after throwing the baby out with the bath water; but where jobs such as Tanks and DPS have had gains, Healers have bad losses due to this reset.

So much complexity Healers had was stripped out and has yet to be filled. What do you think we get when you have a job that has 0 complexity and very little engagement in gameplay?

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Originally Posted by flowerfairy

So what exactly do you want to see in the future for healers?

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No more new oGCD heal for a couple expansion would be a good start. But frankly, I think the currently healers is in such a state then I don't believe a good solution can be reached by simply "removing or adding" a few things. It needs a full rework ala SMN style.

And that rework need to be done with a different mind set and expectation. We can argue the up and down of the current situation, but I believe the root cause of its own is SE seems to have a really low expectation regarding healer players for some reason, almost like it's designed for babies, both in term of mentality and skill set.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

So much complexity Healers had was stripped out and has yet to be filled. What do you think we get when you have a job that has 0 complexity and very little engagement in gameplay?

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See above. I will not pretend each of the thing I mentioned by itself will solve the issue. But there is a saying "take care of the pennies and the dollar will take care of itself". As the developers kept stripping these "pennies" over the years (as from some of the reply here, some of the players seem to have equally dismissing attitude), and everyone wonder why healers can't make a dollar?