Power-leveling is absolutely BROKEN

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Originally Posted by Icehunter

Wolves camp. 40+ Which I think shouldn't be discussed as in that party everyone is usually 45+ since 1 50 can't solo those wolves and most members have to participate ("most"). We are talking pre-40. Link?

On top of that your all within 10 levels which was put in by design. Even XI had a system whereby your EXP would be gimped if levels were too great. Here, they just chop it off.

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the discussion has been about power leveling in general. that is someone doing all the work while others sit and do nothing. if you think that is the only level you can get that kind of sp being drug through levels then you are sadly mistaken. it can be done in multiple spots at different levels. all i pointed out was that that type of sp has been proven that it could be reached.

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Originally Posted by Icehunter

It can be reached. It can't be reached with 1 person doing the killing. Pre 40 the average exp/kill is about 800 (if you yourself are 10 levels or less below mob).

That means to get 250k/hour you would need to kill 10 mobs every 2 minutes on the dot. AOE only affects 10 mobs. 2 minute re-spawns aren't always guaranteed.

PL will always be here in some form. It's called "power" leveling because someone is helping you get experience faster than you normally would.

In XI you got healed by a 75, which meant you didn't need to sit on your arse for a few minutes between fights to recoup. Saving you time. Pulling faster. Faster experience than a regular party could do. For 5-7 years at least in the game.

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getting leveled by someone sitting outside the party healing while you did work is one thing. having someone heal themselves, kill the mobs, and give you free sp while you stand around and do nothing is completely different. as many people, including myself, have stated this is a major issue when grind parties cannot be formed because the power level sp is multiple times faster.

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Originally Posted by Icehunter

Everyone's biggest complaint is that PLing is making the content in-between useless. That it takes away from what SE has to offer.

I love this game, but what content? We need content, we have very little. Rather than focusing our whining and nagging about PL, focus on the lack of content.

Right now there's really no reason to be mid-level. If people want to grind, there are PLENTY of games out there that offer that. They can play those.

We don't need to get rid of PL we need to get rid of the reasons most people PL.

1) low population = no parties = reason for PL
2) no content = no reason to level + reason 1 = reason for PL

Two big ones. PL is always here as I said. You will never see it disappear.

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no, they need to get rid of the children that feel they need to be power leveled at 10x the sp of a grind party. it's pathetic that one group says that others should not want a grind party and if they do they should go to another game. if you can't agree that there needs to be some balance between power leveling and a grind party itself it is you who is whining and being childish because it is you that wishes to keep the imbalance.

you are reminding me of a snot nosed 5 year old child "i want my levels now and i don't care who else it effects."

Patch 1.20 will usher in: Lower TP Generation, loss of attack abilities to earn TP, longer recast timers on weaponskills, the loss of major cross-class abilities, etc.

Honestly, with new patch this thread can probably be closed now.

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Originally Posted by Belial

Patch 1.20 will usher in: Lower TP Generation, loss of attack abilities to earn TP, longer recast timers on weaponskills, the loss of major cross-class abilities, etc.

Honestly, with new patch this thread can probably be closed now.

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actually it will just increase the difference in sp gained between grind parties and power level parties. it's not going to matter how much tp gains and weaponskills are changed when a r50 can pull together 20 mobs and 1 shot them while a party actually have to deal with the changes and do things legit. sure the overall sp will decrease, but when the power level parties go from 10x the sp to 15x the sp of grind parties it just makes the issue even more glaring.

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Originally Posted by Icehunter

I've never insulted you ever DP. In/Out of game or in any other way. I'm saying that:

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actually, yes, you have.

Let's say you want to start a party in FFXIV.

You already have low population. Now subtract from that the players who have all their jobs to 50 already (Some due to PL, some were all 50's before PL was implemented.) Now subtract from that pool those players who are not at all interested in regular parties because PL is so much faster.

There are not 8 players remaining on your server to form a party.

Even if you hit rare fluke and did get a party together, it won't be long before one of the members says "I got a PL coming!" About half the party is ecstatic. What do you do in this situation? Leave the party? Go ahead and let them PL? Do you offer to take you turn doing the killing, or the invite/ousting?

In this way, the availability of PL'ing dilutes the pool of available players wanting to enjoy regular EXP parties below the minimum acceptable threshold.

AFK PL'ing is completely unacceptable in any game. Your watching netflix as you level-up? Reading a book? Why even bother playing?

Are you trying to get abilities you need from other classes? For what? So you can fight Ifrit? Are you preparing for the Dark Moogle? How long can you enjoy these fights (if you enjoy them at all)? A week? A month? Until you get all the gear you want? Gear for what? For new Eng-Game fights that will eek out of SE at the apprent rate of one every 3-6 months?

There is a giant wealth of content that I personally enjoy in simply leveling up classes. I am the kind of guy that gets to the End-Game then starts a new character because I prefer leveling up. SE's answer to mediocre party battles is not to improve them but simply to skip them.

For me, and others of the same mind, SE is sending a loud and clear message that my favorite part of the game is not worthy of attention. If SE doesn't want me to enjoy regular EXP parties, and specifically prevents it from being feasible, then they will get exactly what they want. I won't even try to form a regular EXP party (at least not after a dozen failures.)

It's really too bad that regular party play was so mediocre that at least half of the remaining game population does not mind at all that it has become obsolete.

An official reply would be appreciated.
[SIZE="6"]
Is AFK leveling intended, SE?[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

An official reply would be appreciated.

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The last official reply was in post #870 on October 11th. The link is below if you would like to read it again.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...454#post385454

That reply was before the kick/invite method was necessary. I guess they are not aware that we found another way to afk-level.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

That reply was before the kick/invite method was necessary. I guess they are not aware that we found another way to afk-level.

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Sarcasm, right? I'm sure they were fully aware. Their decision to allow this boggles me to no end.

Idk, I can only suggest for everyone against the AFK PLing to submit a bug report. Just did that.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Idk, I can only suggest for everyone against the AFK PLing to submit a bug report. Just did that.

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That'd be a positive use of SE's time.

Maybe we can call them and hang up too. Oh, and order a bunch of pizzas to their office.







Ha!

Name-calling after running out of arguments? Nice behavior there.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

There are two finite resources we are talking about here.

1. Players
2. Camps

For every PL-party there is at least 2 players less that is available for grind-parties. And for every PL-party there is 1 less camp that is available for grind-parties. Unfortunately it's a zero-sum game. The existence PL-parties hinders grind-parties. The more prevalent PL-parties are, the more they hinder grind-parties.

Now this logic also holds true for soloing. So by my logic, soloing also hinders grind-parties, no?? Yes ... but to a much smaller extent. It only takes one player out of the potential grind-party pool, instead of two. Multiply that difference to a server scale and it's dramatic. Also, to DarkstarPoet's point, the XP earned by playing solo is arithmetically comparable (half, double, triple, etc) with grind-party XP. Meanwhile PL-party XP is exponentially larger (10x, 100x, etc) than grind-party XP. That exaggerated XP growth only encourages more PL-parties, and diminishes the ability of grind-parties to form even further.

Some can argue that PL-parties are just a "playstyle", and that players should be able to do it because it doesn't hurt anything ... but I wouldn't make that argument.

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I think you might find that most of the people getting PLed are doing it in LS or with certain LS friends that probably wouldn't join pug grind parties anyways.

regardless you are still trying to force others to play your way or with you which will never happen. People with your type of mentality usually dont get along with others.

PS: I very rarely if ever come across others wanting a spot chosen for PLing that weren't there to also PL. Most grind camps are not used in PLing.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

This is another example of why the devs really need to think twice about how PLing is affecting the community.

Weighing the pros and cons, I'm finding there are more negatives to powerleveling than positives:

Advantages

• New and returning players can play with high level friends.
• Low level players can move toward high level content more quickly.

Disadvantages

• As the playerbase becomes prematurely top-heavy, finding others to experience low-mid level content with becomes more difficult. Even moreso if you wish to experience it with a level-appropriate group. This alienates new and low level players who wish to experience the game as it was meant to be played.
• Similarly, the demand for additional low-mid level content becomes less vocalized as many people simply bypass it, leaving new and low level players with less to do.
• Those who wish to level via old-school grinding with a regular party will find it more difficult since many people now insist on bringing along a powerleveler.
• Camps fill up quickly with powerleveling parties in an environment that was never meant to allow for this kind of leveling design.
• Players who skyrocket to level cap by none of their own effort lack the proper knowledge or gear to participate in the endgame content they raced toward. People become less trusting of random players and are not as open to partying with new people that they do not know.
• All of the above points lead to frustration within the community. A community that cannot afford any more discontent right now.

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I'm quoting this for truth.

To all the people saying that if the PL group wasn't there it would be taken over by a regular grind group.... At least we know they are working towards their higher levels like the rest of us. When you have the best grind party camps taken over by PL groups, it just really deters me from wanting to keep playing the game (no it really doesn't but it might to others xD) because it shows where the priority is in the community. Also brings out a lot of dicks as well.

I'd also like to point out about camp stealing going on before the patch. It's really rude when you have another grind party come and try to steal your camp. But that doesn't happen as often as a PL group coming steal your camp, and I really feel bad for the people that don't have 50's yet because they can't defend it themselves.

Camp stealing going on, change to 50 to defend the camp, goes on forever, and your party decides to disband. Yup don't say it hasn't happened, because it did to me last night. I don't give up when people try and steal our camp, but it definately hinders me and others from leveling up.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

I think you might find that most of the people getting PLed are doing it in LS or with certain LS friends that probably wouldn't join pug grind parties anyways.

regardless you are still trying to force others to play your way or with you which will never happen. People with your type of mentality usually dont get along with others.

PS: I very rarely if ever come across others wanting a spot chosen for PLing that weren't there to also PL. Most grind camps are not used in PLing.

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Your first point is quite valid. Players who want to play specifically with other players should not be hindered, especially if they are LS-mates. My only contention with that is that they should not get 10 to 20 times more XP than a standard Full Party. I humbly submit that a Level Syncing system would serve them just as well without throwing the entire community out of balance.

Your second point may also be true as well (though not valid). Every community ... every society, has to have a set of rules in order to not implode. Some are written, some are unwritten. Some are lightly enforced, some are heavily enforced.

But (you may say) this is just a game. Well, games have rules too. How much they are enforced completely depends on who you are playing with, and how much they tolerate the bending and breaking of the game rules.

For example ... when playing chess with someone, I let them use the "castling" move even if they may have already moved their King piece, though that is against the rules, strictly speaking. However, I do not allow players to play naked, no matter how much they claim it is their chess playstyle. It is simply an unwritten rule. Am I forcing them to play my way (i.e. fully clothed)?? Probably. But just because I am forcing them doesn't mean that they're right and I am wrong. They have to have a valid reason ... Free-wheeling whimsy isn't enough.

So far, from reading ALL the posts in this thread, you sir are the only one to come close to providing a valid reason why PL-partying should be allowed (i.e. playing with LS-mates). Getting 20 times more XP is not a valid reason, in and of itself.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Name-calling after running out of arguments? Nice behavior there.

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I'm not, but you are. Just look at your classes lvl. Pug lvl 50. I'm sorry, but pug for 1.19 sucks. That's why you don't get parties. Wait till tomorrow, and you might if pug gets better again. I bet that when tanaka was around and you were llving your pug 1-50 in a week, because you got xp for each punch given unlike the others classes, you wasn't complaining right? Now that your class sucks and you don't want to lvl others because you are lazy, that's your problem. Just don't whinny about others having to work the others classes to 50 because they want to experience the game as a whole and you don't. Blame yourself

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Idk, I can only suggest for everyone against the AFK PLing to submit a bug report. Just did that.

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I wonder if you can even name one level progression MMO where you couldn't mooch xp while AFK. I mean, among MMOs that award xp, that is. Just curious.

He is just mad no one wants to PL him. I wouldnt want to PL someone that wants innocent people banned either.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

I wonder if you can even name one level progression MMO where you couldn't mooch xp while AFK. I mean, among MMOs that award xp, that is. Just curious.

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Ultima Online would be one. Although you only ever accumulated experience through action use, a handfull of skills could be done by just idling your character near weak monsters but otherwise it was hard to cheat the system without botting.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Ultima Online would be one. Although you only ever accumulated experience through action use, a handfull of skills could be done by just idling your character near weak monsters but otherwise it was hard to cheat the system without botting.

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Ultima online? I lol"ed now

Wait wait, lineage II!!

Not cheaters and botters!

Both totally fair!

Ohh, how I so loved that gm account that my friend snatched..
Good ol' times...

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Originally Posted by Noir

Just look at your classes lvl. Pug lvl 50. I'm sorry, but pug for 1.19 sucks. That's why you don't get parties. Wait till tomorrow, and you might if pug gets better again. I bet that when tanaka was around and you were llving your pug 1-50 in a week, because you got xp for each punch given unlike the others classes, you wasn't complaining right?

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FYI, i leveled pug this november, when i came back, so I don't even know what you are talking about.

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Now that your class sucks and you don't want to lvl others because you are lazy, that's your problem. Just don't whinny about others having to work the others classes to 50 because they want to experience the game as a whole and you don't. Blame yourself

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How about you look at my classes again and see how many of them i have leveled instead of concentrating on my pugilist?

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

He is just mad no one wants to PL him. I wouldnt want to PL someone that wants innocent people banned either.

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Lol.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

So far, from reading ALL the posts in this thread, you sir are the only one to come close to providing a valid reason why PL-partying should be allowed (i.e. playing with LS-mates). Getting 20 times more XP is not a valid reason, in and of itself.

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yeah but I think that is a separate debate and has more to do with XP balance than anything else. Unfortunately there is so much hyperbole in this thread a new one would need to be started with a disclaimer of prove your claims.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

I wonder if you can even name one level progression MMO where you couldn't mooch xp while AFK. I mean, among MMOs that award xp, that is. Just curious.

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That's not really an issue. The issue is the amount of EXP gained via afk PL. Name me one game where you could go away for an hour and get over 100k exp by doing nothing?

If you go afk for a few minutes in a party, that's fine, but if you just leave your character online for a day leeching, then why are you playing the game in the first place?

I made my point, nothing to do here anymore.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

That's not really an issue. The issue is the amount of EXP gained via afk PL. Name me one game where you could go away for an hour and get over 100k exp by doing nothing?

If you go afk for a few minutes in a party, that's fine, but if you just leave your character online for a day leeching, then why are you playing the game in the first place?

I made my point, nothing to do here anymore.

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Final Fantasy XI.

One night I fell asleep while in a PLd duo with my Bst. They realized I had fallen asleep and kept going anyway with me still in a party. I woke up the next morning three levels higher.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Final Fantasy XI.

One night I fell asleep while in a PLd duo with my Bst. They realized I had fallen asleep and kept going anyway with me still in a party. I woke up the next morning three levels higher.

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If it was FFXIV, you would wake up level 50. The game would also bug and the exp would overflow to all your other classes, because you would get too much exp for it to handle.

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Originally Posted by Issac

It's been on my mind lately how to adapt this thread, as everything has been discussed to death. Yet there's no indication that anything is going to change or that the problem is being considered. To see the original post, please click the spoiler at the bottom.

The thing is, the damage is already done. All the consequences many posters have warned about are here in full-swing. Traditional grind parties have taken a backseat to powerleveling to speed new players straight to the endgame content, by which in all respect, really isn't there yet. Storyline quests along the way, while admittedly weak, have become something so utterly unimportant that one stops to wonder if the acronym "RPG" belongs in this particular "MMORPG." They also have taken a backseat to rocketing to "endgame" as quickly as possible.

The economy has taken a hit as a consequence. There is low demand for mid-rank gear, and as such the prices reflect. Mid-rank gear is generally triple to quadruple the price of common high-rank gear, exasperated by the new demand to make materia. I'm not knocking on materia at all, I think it's a great element, but one must admit it makes the demand curve further skewed.

When you create a party for Lv45-50, the final stretch, you may notice players who are clueless about the role they're supposed to play. Some know their role, but don't know which abilities are most effective. Another group of players don't bother with gear until they're 49-50 because the market condition conveniently gives them an excuse.

Anyone who refutes these facts is in denial, I see it every single day I play. There's only a couple options to fix this, now.
1. Rollback.
2. Cap raise and do away with powerleveling.

#2 will probably happen along with PS3 release. If neither happen and powerleveling is truly here to stay, well, I don't even want to think about that.

Original post:

Okay, this seriously needs to be fixed immediately.

Now, before you all say, "Oh come on dude, why you gotta crap on something so awesome," honestly think about it. The consequences will be a domino effect that just might force SE to do a server rollback.

Here's an example: I just got 25,000EXP in less than five minutes. From level 24 to 25 with a friend killing and chaining crabs for me in my party.

The above is far far too extreme. Given these possibilities, and even more if she killed something at a higher level, everyone will exploit the crap out of this and no one will have a job below level 40 within a month. Do we really want this? Do we want to make the journey to cap so utterly pointless?

I'm really concerned for the future of this game if this is what SE intended in this patch! This is bad, really bad. Please, SE, let's get an emergency maintenance and fix this before it is too late!

Five times now people have tried to be clever and call me a hypocrite or somesuch. Let me make it exceedingly clear that I refuse to use this now that my friend and I have tested it out. Nor do I want to be complacent with it.

I just wanted to add the below really quick. These numbers are not exact, but an approximation until my friend and I do another test for accuracy.

Hopefully the upcoming player's poll next year will touch on this subject.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg so does this guy PL

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

That's not really an issue. The issue is the amount of EXP gained via afk PL. Name me one game where you could go away for an hour and get over 100k exp by doing nothing?

If you go afk for a few minutes in a party, that's fine, but if you just leave your character online for a day leeching, then why are you playing the game in the first place?

I made my point, nothing to do here anymore.

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Your point was that gaining xp while AFK is a bug. I don't think you've come close to making it considering it's generally possible to do this even in other MMOs. Maybe you shouldn't be wasting the bug tracker's time and encouraging others to do the same.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

That's not really an issue. The issue is the amount of EXP gained via afk PL. Name me one game where you could go away for an hour and get over 100k exp by doing nothing?

If you go afk for a few minutes in a party, that's fine, but if you just leave your character online for a day leeching, then why are you playing the game in the first place?

I made my point, nothing to do here anymore.

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why does it matter to you so much? If the person doing the PLing wants to do it then so be it. It has zero effect on you. Some people dont do it just to have a high level character some people might do it just to get a certain skill. Either way it has no effect on you other then going against some semblance of moral judgement you think should be forced on others.

Not everyone is going to have the same beliefs as you and if history has taught us anything non tolerance never leads to anything good.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

why does it matter to you so much? If the person doing the PLing wants to do it then so be it. It has zero effect on you. Some people dont do it just to have a high level character some people might do it just to get a certain skill. Either way it has no effect on you other then going against some semblance of moral judgement you think should be forced on others.

Not everyone is going to have the same beliefs as you and if history has taught us anything non tolerance never leads to anything good.

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You obviously haven't read the entire thread dude.. or atleast the last 4 pages if you really feel that it doesn't effect anyone.

Go back and read, think about it, then come back and post.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

why does it matter to you so much? If the person doing the PLing wants to do it then so be it. It has zero effect on you. Some people dont do it just to have a high level character some people might do it just to get a certain skill. Either way it has no effect on you other then going against some semblance of moral judgement you think should be forced on others.

Not everyone is going to have the same beliefs as you and if history has taught us anything non tolerance never leads to anything good.

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But it does affect every single player on the server.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

That's not really an issue. The issue is the amount of EXP gained via afk PL.

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As far as I have experienced, a good experience party allows to earn as much experience per hour as power leveling. I found power leveling useful only when no parties were available at my level, but that will be solved in a few hours with 1.20. I don't see why the amount of experience is an issue as it is similar to a good experience party.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

If you go afk for a few minutes in a party, that's fine, but if you just leave your character online for a day leeching, then why are you playing the game in the first place?

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Not everyone enjoy the grind of getting classes from level 1 to 50. I'll take myself as an example, I did level my archer from 1 to 50 without the use of any power level whatsoever. However, there were plenty of time when that become a chore more than an entertainment. During those times, having a power level to help me get through my slope would have been wonderful. Now that I experienced what is the grind from level 1 to 50, I don't see why I should still deny some power level from time to time to get me out of the slopes with my other classes when I either don't have time or don't like the part I'm in.
While some other players dislike the grind altogether and would rather be level 50 from the start and experience the game their own way. If that's what they like and someone is ready to sacrifice his/her own time to allow that person to skip the grind, so be it. What is better, having that person power level to 50 and enjoy the game, or not an have it not play FFXIV at all?

Yes, I understand the problem of abuse that some players do with power level. However, I believe the true abuse is restricted to only a few players (both giving excessive power level and receiving power level). Yes, the developers should keep an eye on it, but not to the point of saying power level is broken.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

But it does affect every single player on the server.

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Explain exactly how it affects every single player on the server. Because, quite honestly, I haven't been affected at all by other people doing power level.

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Originally Posted by Nakiamiie

Explain exactly how it affects every single player on the server. Because, quite honestly, I haven't been affected at all by other people doing power level.

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[SIZE="7"]Read the rest of the thread. K thanks.[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

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Originally Posted by Nakiamiie

Explain exactly how it affects every single player on the server. Because, quite honestly, I haven't been affected at all by other people doing power level.

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[SIZE="7"]Read the rest of the thread. K thanks.[/SIZE]

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Or even the updated original post, yeesh. It reviews a good chunk of it.

Please fix this oust / invite / oust / invite flawed game mechanic exping. I dont care that you mind - I dont like this.

OT http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ease-important

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Read the rest of the thread. K thanks.

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Actually, this thread has proven that it doesn't prevent anyone from leveling as slowly as they would like to, despite claims to the contrary. If you didn't pick that up, then you obviously haven't read all 144 pages (like I have :rolleyes:).

What this thread is really about is certain people demanding to impose their style of play on others, in spite of being able to play their way already. It's not enough for them to enjoy themselves; they insist on making other people suffer.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

You obviously haven't read the entire thread dude.. or atleast the last 4 pages if you really feel that it doesn't effect anyone.

Go back and read, think about it, then come back and post.

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No I just dont agree with it

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

[SIZE="7"]Arguing opinion as fact & using large text makes me superior. K thanks.[/SIZE]

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^ Fixed for grammatical errors & typos.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Read the rest of the thread. K thanks.

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No one has yet to give a reason.

Some common reasons people in this thread are against PLing.

"PLd players don't know how to play their job."

As of 1.20, no one will know how to play their class. We're all starting off like PLd characters tonight.

"They'll get bored and leave if they get all classes to cap too quick."

Then all those folks with multiple 50s better show SE that's true and leave otherwise you're evidence to the contrary.

"What's the point of low level content if you can get to cap so quick"

What low level content? Oh, you mean that handful of quests and two dungeons they added after we spent a year with nothing to do but grind?

It's been said a dozen times, but I'll say it again.

SE is between a rock and a hard place. They have to use what few resources they can to keep those already at cap occupied without alienating those looking to start the game.

XIV doesn't have the luxury of being a run-of-the-mill MMO.

That said, oust and kill needs to be fixed. But PLing as intended is fine.