BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

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Originally Posted by Shougun

That was a disappointing read on Blue Mage, imo.

Left reading that with a huge... bleh feeling lol (speaking on the answer to blue mage specifically).

Hopefully it was a smokescreen for info to be released later or the internal discussion is different. .

Edit: (Not saying Blue Mage HAS to be DF but the current state doesn't really feel valuable either)

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The worst part of that interview is arguably nearly every excuse explanation he gives on BLU's design choices are either blatantly untrue or grossly exaggerated. As if he has no clue that any negative feedback exists.

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"We are, however, mindful of two things: ensuring both that the job or job type we implement will be enjoyed by the players, and that it will make for an interesting and fun experience."

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Which, based on majority of the feedback and shared experiences I've read about, their release of BLU didn't quite meet either standard, aside from the very odd cases.

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"Additionally, blue magic is interesting because they are powerful."

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lol oh yeah, fear my 3 oGCD primal spells that I can only use every 30sec to a minute and a half, and the most appropriate 130 potency spell which may or may not be AoE or have an added status effect that is resisted by almost anything that isn't a trash mob. /eyeroll. Nothing like casting Doom or trying to get Tail Screw/Missile to land on something I've could have used DPS spells on and possibly kill sooner.

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but we can potentially see a huge disparity in power between Blue Mages depending on the blue magic they have learned—even if their job level is the same. In other words, too large of a disparity in the number of blue magic abilities learned would create issues if Blue Mages were able to queue normally for duties.

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Oh my... It's almost as if some people can like, be different in power because one puts effort in learning a proper rotation and staying up-to-date with the gear ilvl than someone who just spams one attack repeatedly and barely meets the minimal ilvl... Even though their job levels are the same... Huh...:confused:

Just... Wow.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Oh my... It's almost as if some people can like, be different in power because one puts effort in learning a proper rotation and staying up-to-date with the gear ilvl than someone who just spams one attack repeatedly and barely meets the minimal ilvl... Even though their job levels are the same... Huh...:confused:

Just... Wow.

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There's a difference between learning the rotation and having to go out and farm for those spells in order to learn the rotation in the first place. This is further impacted by the diminishing number of groups required to farm the primal fights for those spells all for a job that I'm not sure Yoshi wanted to see made in the game in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

There's a difference between learning the rotation and having to go out and farm for those spells in order to learn the rotation in the first place. This is further impacted by the diminishing number of groups required to farm the primal fights for those spells all for a job that I'm not sure Yoshi wanted to see made in the game in the first place.

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There certainly is a difference, but they ultimately both affect your performance in group content as a DPS. If a player is committed to being even the least bit serious to carrying their own weight in group content, they would learn their spells in a timely manner relevant to their job level, same as somebody would use any other job's toolkit to come up with the (at least general) rotation and openers. The fact that they've gated core spells behind prohibitive RNG and group content is a problem created by the devs themselves. My point being, it's not as if the ability to underperform is something thus far unheard of and letting BLU participate in the Duty Finder would suddenly cause to exist. Therefore, it's a weak excuse that in itself has several potential stopgates to prevent, as brought up by various posters.

And thus the chapter of blue mage is closed, sad really. At least I have gunbreaker to look forward to.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Sadly, as I see it, those tons of people playing it those first few days means it was a success to them. Even if most people disliked it by the end or have given up on it.

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The sad thing is, there will probably be a lot of people switching to BLU for a day or a week each time they raise the level cap as well, especially if they raise the BLU cap during content droughts, like they did with BLU's launch. This will be seen as a sign of BLU's continued success, even if people drop it again immediately when they remember how bad BLU is.

They have no ideas how to keep open world alive, so they had to implement the limited job system and sacrifice blue mage and beast master to actually use it as side content every uneven patch.
Go learn skills and catch pokemons in the old maps of ARR, HW and SB! How exciting to visit old maps and become a pokemon trainer.

I can't really stomach much more of this game currently while Blue Mage is being planned in this manner, but please all, don't give up the fight. Speaking as a (past) Machinist and Dark Knight main, there were interviews after Heavensward's release and Stormblood's release that basically told players they were wrong and playing the game wrong, and eventually things got patched and reworked and acknowledged.

Just never give up. Blue Mages are all about patiently observing with a critical eye and then integrating this knowledge to achieve more and more. It may take a while, but we'll be beat down and beat down mercilessly by the stubbornness of the devs until we finally achieve (learn, lancet, genome) the ability to turn it around and grasp our freedom.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

There's a difference between learning the rotation and having to go out and farm for those spells in order to learn the rotation in the first place. This is further impacted by the diminishing number of groups required to farm the primal fights for those spells all for a job that I'm not sure Yoshi wanted to see made in the game in the first place.

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Disparity in power between Blue Mages would not be a problem if spell acquisition was not a problem. Having to farm spells with a low drop chance is a design choice the devs have direct control over and could change at any time if they chose to. This is a bad excuse to ban them from the DF.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Disparity in power between Blue Mages would not be a problem if spell acquisition was not a problem. Having to farm spells with a low drop chance is a design choice the devs have direct control over and could change at any time if they chose to. This is a bad excuse to ban them from the DF.

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Exactly this. It was the Dev Choice to make spells an RNG learn rate instead of guaranteed. If it was a guaranteed after one run of a dungeon/boss the barrier for entry would be lowered significantly, and then its just a worry of making a set of useful skills.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

Go learn skills and catch pokemons in the old maps of ARR, HW and SB! How exciting to visit old maps and become a pokemon trainer.

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I know it was sarcasm on your side, but i would love that (and many others probably too).
What people like is subjectiv after all.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

I know it was sarcasm on your side, but i would love that (and many others probably too).
What people like is subjectiv after all.

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Ok but why does that have to be mutually exclusive to these classes being playable in the rest of the game (mostly venting, not saying you yourself said that)? You already need to get specific skills for BLU to get through job quests, so it's not like they can't combine the learning experience and progression. And Mind Blast and Glower were made 100% obtainable on enemy kill, exactly because they were blocking job progression.
They literally have in place a system that would enable BLU (and subsequent Limited Jobs) to be DF ready, and have already made adjustments to skill acquisition towards a similar end. They can do all that, without taking anything away from the content exclusive to the Limited Jobs.

By all means, introduce classes with their exclusive content. They did it before with BRD. But on release they disproved a lot of things they said about BLU, and since have only taken steps to make BLU even more DF friendly - now it's a matter of will rather than ability.

tl;dr jobs having interesting, unique side content is not mutually exclusive with them being DF friendly and we shouldn't be fighting each other over it, but the devs.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Ok but why does that have to be mutually exclusive to these classes being playable in the rest of the game

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Because different content can be incompatible. I would much rather they go down the route of making the unique parts of the masked carnival available in the rest of the game than try to force BLU into a mold that it isn't designed for.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Because different content can be incompatible. I would much rather they go down the route of making the unique parts of the masked carnival available in the rest of the game than try to force BLU into a mold that it isn't designed for.

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"Designed for" is an interesting point of debate. Isn't BLU part of a party in some capacity in any other FF game it appears in? And however BLU is designed right now is a decision of the Devs, one I'm firmly opposed to and would like to see changed.
And why does the "Keep BLU limited" crowd mind so much if BLU is unlocked, in a way that doesn't hurt the learning process nor the Masked Carnival?

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

"Designed for" is an interesting point of debate. Isn't BLU part of a party in some capacity in any other FF game it appears in? And however BLU is designed right now is a decision of the Devs, one I'm firmly opposed to and would like to see changed.
And why does the "Keep BLU limited" crowd mind so much if BLU is unlocked, in a way that doesn't hurt the learning process nor the Masked Carnival?

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My personal view is that a limited job should provide a very different experience from other classes. BLU is a perfect fit for such a job as the identity of the job relies on mechanics that are not in XIV, that being skill collection, elemental affinities, status effects, and gimmick spells (like roulette and level 5 death). The idea of the devs going ham on these ideas makes a brand new experience that would be completely neutered by forcing them into the same raid balanced meta as the other classes.

I don't mind if they open them up to dungeons in some way (though squadrons should be higher priority), but BLU or any other limited job should never be raid balanced, because it defeats the point of the content entirely.

You can dislike their implementation of BLU, it does have major flaws, but forcing them into the same hole as the other jobs does not help.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

They literally have in place a system that would enable BLU (and subsequent Limited Jobs) to be DF ready, and have already made adjustments to skill acquisition towards a similar end. They can do all that, without taking anything away from the content exclusive to the Limited Jobs.

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The reasoning, not necessarily the implementation, is that to be "DF ready", you must be balanced with all other jobs, but "collect jobs" like BLU (And maybe Beastmaster or Puppetmaster in the future) have to do an extra-work to earn their skills, as opposed to usual jobs who simply gain them by leveling, so they think it's not very fair to have to work more for overall the same results.

A suggestion I made somes pages ago would be for "collect jobs" to not gain anything through gear, and that their complete stats and efficiency would be tied to the skills they've collected. This way, you could be "balanced", and simply shift the extra work from "obtaining gear" to "obtaining skills". You could even have main stats tied to the skills you've learned and substats tied to the skills you've equipped (For example, equipping Mighty Guard could give +15 Tenacity for each spell you've learned), to create an ersatz of itemization.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The idea of the devs going ham on these ideas makes a brand new experience that would be completely neutered by forcing them into the same raid balanced meta as the other classes.

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Your idea of how to do such a thing is very limited and shortsighted if you think one means the other.

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forcing them into the same hole as the other jobs does not help.

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I still fail to see what it takes from them.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

A suggestion I made somes pages ago would be for "collect jobs" to not gain anything through gear, and that their complete stats and efficiency would be tied to the skills they've collected. This way, you could be "balanced", and simply shift the extra work from "obtaining gear" to "obtaining skills". You could even have main stats tied to the skills you've learned and substats tied to the skills you've equipped (For example, equipping Mighty Guard could give +15 Tenacity for each spell you've learned), to create an ersatz of itemization.

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That would be fair, at least for leveling skills, similar to how other jobs get guaranteed drops from leveling dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

My personal view is that a limited job should provide a very different experience from other classes. BLU is a perfect fit for such a job as the identity of the job relies on mechanics that are not in XIV, that being skill collection, elemental affinities, status effects, and gimmick spells (like roulette and level 5 death). The idea of the devs going ham on these ideas makes a brand new experience that would be completely neutered by forcing them into the same raid balanced meta as the other classes.

I don't mind if they open them up to dungeons in some way (though squadrons should be higher priority), but BLU or any other limited job should never be raid balanced, because it defeats the point of the content entirely.

You can dislike their implementation of BLU, it does have major flaws, but forcing them into the same hole as the other jobs does not help.

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There is nothing stopping BLU from having a set of abilities they select from their spell book as the "Balanced raid set" and then also having the crazy unbalanced Limited stuff with the carnival too. Having a raid balanced set of abilities (which is possible with their current ability set) does not take away from having the whacky abilities for the Overworld and Carnival.

Yoshi-P continues to disappoint and use the same tired excuses that have been proven wrong time and time again. It's starting to become a level of arrogance that is annoying. Just like before when he said that he knew what complaint and suggestions people would have ahead of time. And yet, nothing makes any sense coming from him about the subject still.



But I'm not giving up. We got Vieras, we got male bunny suits, we can get BLU in DF and raids one day. We just gotta keep fighting until BLU can do current content or BLU is actually a real solo job.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

There is nothing stopping BLU from having a set of abilities they select from their spell book as the "Balanced raid set" and then also having the crazy unbalanced Limited stuff with the carnival too. Having a raid balanced set of abilities (which is possible with their current ability set) does not take away from having the whacky abilities for the Overworld and Carnival.

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With this suggestion, you either have a job with either half a skillset, or two robust skillsets. The former would cause a raid balanced job that feels half finished, and the latter would lead to the same problem that leads to us never having a job like SMN/SCH again, in that it would be better to have a brand new job with the same ideas that BLU may bring (without the gimmicks and collecting identity), and have BLU be purely "limited", than create BLU with both the collecting and crazy aspect, and the raid balance.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Your idea of how to do such a thing is very limited and shortsighted if you think one means the other.

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If you are going to say something like that, at least explain why you think that...

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

With this suggestion, you either have a job with either half a skillset, or two robust skillsets. The former would cause a raid balanced job that feels half finished, and the latter would lead to the same problem that leads to us never having a job like SMN/SCH again, in that it would be better to have a brand new job with the same ideas that BLU may bring (without the gimmicks and collecting identity), and have BLU be purely "limited", than create BLU with both the collecting and crazy aspect, and the raid balance.

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I don't think you're right here. Because the appeal of the limited set is stupid gimmicks, you could create the raid set to feel robust and like a real job, because the only difference between the raid set and limited is the limited just takes gimmick skills instead of practical ones. Having a full feeling raid balance doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to having the limited half as well, because the limited half already feels disjointed and weird. I also think the SCH/ SMN comparison is a false equivalency, because the limited aspect isn't something that has to balanced in tandem to the raid set like sch and smns abilities have to be.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I don't think you're right here. Because the appeal of the limited set is stupid gimmicks, you could create the raid set to feel robust and like a real job, because the only difference between the raid set and limited is the limited just takes gimmick skills instead of practical ones. Having a full feeling raid balance doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to having the limited half as well, because the limited half already feels disjointed and weird. I also think the SCH/ SMN comparison is a false equivalency, because the limited aspect isn't something that has to balanced in tandem to the raid set like sch and smns abilities have to be.

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I think you misunderstand the point I'm getting at. What I'm saying is that all they have is the limited aspect. In order to create the second skillset that you are asking for, they would literally need to create and balance the equivalent of a brand new job and apply that to the BLU skeleton that we already have. Why would they do that when they could instead create a brand new job, and continue to flesh out what a limited job is. In that regard, the SMN/SCH problem is not a false equivalency,

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Why would they do that

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For the same reasons they put BLU in the game in the first place - it is a staple FF job that is very popular and was repeatedly asked to be put in the game. However, many people, if not most, asked for BLU with the intention of playing the game with the job, and did not wish or even imagine for it to be reduced to a glorified battle fishing log with the battle equivalent of custom deliveries with the Masked Carnival's weekly challenges.

All the while, they can still flesh out what limited jobs are, even with BLU. Only by then they'd have to re-brand it into "extended jobs".

At level 50 at least the skills already exist in the game with animations potencies a rotation ect. All it would probably take is an adjustment to a few skills. BLU already has all the pieces there to make the balanced set. I agree it would be effort and resources to do, but i think it would be worth the effort.

It should be noted that BLU straight up has a ton of repeat skills. The whole "build your own set" thing doesn't mean much when half your skills are just different colored 130 and 110 AoEs

I'd like to see PotD unlocked to BLU at some point, it's outdated content and the leaderboard doesn't mean much when only a handful of classes are optimal in there or can solo. It could be a lot of fun putting the BLU toolkit to use in there to climb the higher floors.

I'm going to assume that BLU gets that at 60 cap, but who knows.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

I'm going to assume that BLU gets that at 60 cap, but who knows.

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Well given the fact that they can't even do level 50 squadron missions makes me doubt that they will be able to do any of the other side content.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Well given the fact that they can't even do level 50 squadron missions makes me doubt that they will be able to do any of the other side content.

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i'd at least like them to let you do squadron missions, it seems like that's the kind of content you'd WANT blue mage to participate in.

I really wish they would find a way to make blue mage a real job, but I can't imagine them dedicating the resources to it at this point. I love the lore behind it and the concept, but the fact you'll never be able to main it really sucks. Comparing it to how it was in FF 11, it's a real let down. FF 11 blue mage could do so much and everyone loved them.

Bring back FF11 blu pls yoshi

BLU should be allowed in Duty Finder and Raids. There shouldn't be any content they're prohibited from.

It should also keep its Learning mechanic and overworld experience boost.

With of course plenty of strange skills to use in Carnivale (Provided you don't just end up cheesing everything with Tail Screw, Final Sting or Self Destruct because the fights there are a pile of trash and not interesting...)

This is a goal that is certainly attainable given the current framework of BLU.

BLU already is balanced at level 50. BLU has an established DPS rotation at level 50. BLU has a level of freedom of choice with skills to use within said DPS rotation (With a plethora of 130 potency skills that can act as filler. Glower is merely the most popular because it is mandatory to learn to for BLU's job quests and it has a decent hitbox. Eruption/Feather Rain are mostly interchangeable too, given they share the same CD and deal the same damage. Same would be said about Mountain Buster/Static Strike if MB did Earth damage like it's supposed to rather than randomly dealing Physical damage).

BLU has already, ways to direct people to go learn certain spells. By way of their job quests that literally tell them to go learn certain spells before they can be done. With additional spells being given via totems directly.

BLU has already, a system in place to allow them to save specific skill set ups. Which would allow them to save an "Actual content" set that is full of balanced skills that work in DF/Raid content. While being able to have "Jank Content" sets to use for messing about in the overworld and carnivale where balance is basically not necessary because who cares if you Doom a level 3 sheep in Middle La Noscea...

The only things that need to happen for BLU to be easily workable into normal content is:

* Adjusting a very low number of skills to be more balanced. White Wind, Mighty Guard and 1000 Needles being the prime examples. White Wind would be balanced if it had a CD that justified its power, rather than being spammable. Mighty Guard would simply need to be less potent (Though, most of its tankiness and enmity comes from being able to spam White Wind given the harsh damage penalty it has...) and 1000 Needles could simply use a minimum level restriction to prevent it being used at lower levels where it's OP.

* Adjusting scaling so that BLU doesn't have this exponential curve of power. Where it starts of being garbage and continues to be garbage until it hits 45+ and ramps into 130 ilevel gear (Which has lead to 1000 Needles dependence throughout leveling because everything else is just horrible) - Easily done by giving them actual weapons instead of their bonus int scaling.

* Making certain skills more attainable. I.e. Primal skills, Song of Torment and Glower. Things necessary for the advancement of their job quests or part of their standard rotation by level 50. (Easily done too. Given that Cyclops and Sirens aren't unique enemy types. Meanwhile, Masked Carnivale has a stage, which is required for your level 50 job quest, where the enemy uses Primal skills. This same person also can teach you Ram's Voice and Dragon's Voice currently)

* Either teach people how to build their "Actual Content" skill set, or auto-load it up with the baseline skills when they receive this set (If you restrict DF for a specific level to promote BLU going out and learning skills before farming DF) and then when customizing that specific skillset, lock out various actions. The ones that would be "Unbalanced" or "Not good enough" for doing duties and raids (I.e. Stuff like Missile/Tail Screw would be under the former while stuff like Final Sting, Transfusion and The Look would be under the latter). Basically, lock out the actions from the content, not the job.

* Adjust certain enemies resistance to insta-kill spells. Notably: Raid FATE bosses and Hunt targets so that you won't get BLU's able to solo S Rank Hunts and Raid FATEs. Possibly also NM's too (At least Eureka would fall under "Actual Content" restrictions to prevent BLU abuse there). Also, in some cases (Un-sync'd Duties that are perhaps 2+ expansions old) allow their resistances to be lowered, so people can have fun insta-killing bosses that don't matter.

* Push a particular identity with BLU DPS skills. One that doesn't rely on being great vs trash that's susceptible to CC while being garbo (Relatively) vs Bosses due to CC immunities.

The end result would be, a BLU that is balanced within current content. With a cohesive role and DPS rotation, that, when playing in real content such as DF Roulettes or Statics in Raids or Exploration Zones would be pushed towards ensuring a relatively balanced kit (Outside someone intentionally trolling and trying to pick a set up that doesn't work, in the same extent as someone playing a regular job and refusing to use their skills correctly (Ice Mage, Mute Bard, Melee DPS RDM, Cardless AST etc))

While still maintaining not only the feel of BLU, with going out and learning skills and playing in the overworld, but also allowing for the side content of Pokemon'ing all the skills, doing Carnivale and messing around in irrelevant content with OP skills.

It would take a considerable amount of work to pull off, but mostly because of how current BLU has been kind of half-assed in its implementation so far (Had some of its designs actually been created properly it would require much less work...) but it should end up catering for all BLU players. Those that would like to use it as a "Main Job" and play all kinds of content with it and use it in a balanced environment as well as those that would like to use it as "Side Content" and go around having fun with just collecting OP spells and using them in the overworld and some outdated duties.

I think they should have a balanced set which they equip to go into the duty finder or raids, with each skill with an associated level. Anything in this list has a 100% learn rate, so it wont take long to make you raid viable, and the stupid "OP" skills can stay as they are and be used in their irrelevant content. Having a separate balanced list could also have separate balance to these skills as well, like Pec light could be 30% if not using the balanced list, and 15% or something on the duty finder list. Also BLU's identity could be a magic version of NIN revolving around peculiar light and buff stacking. You could even set up their job gauge to be around building up elements on the enemies, to then exploit with elemental weakness skills, IE cast a bunch of water canon to stick water to the boss, then use shock strike to deal bonus damage.

Well really it should have been 2 jobs or 1 job with a big side gimick
Keep one we have now with carnival and basically be the performance of blue mage and the other one not stuck in the past.

Something that's surprised me lately is how many low level boss FATES are immune to Doom and Tail Screw. Half of them you can Doom just fine, but then the other half randomly resist it.

Another thing is BLU's dps in FATES compared to other classes is terrible. I can tear a lv30 fate boss down in 1 minute with Sam or Nin, BLU struggles to chew through in 2 or 3 minutes with all debuffs up. I thought as a limited class BLU might at the very least be good at tearing up low level Fates, but it can't even do that.

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Originally Posted by GhostZukin

"Designed for solo play" - If I wanted to play a solo game, I would be playing a game that is designed for solo play. I don't want a half-baked version inside an MMORPG.

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My issue with them saying BLU is "designed for solo play" is that you have to rely on non-solo activities to get the spells for BLU. If that's the way it's going to be done, then just let us use DF. Besides, I didn't see any issue with BLU being able to keep up any more than any other class could.

So, it's been 2 months+ since BLU's launch, and you know what, I wouldn't have been able to tell. No BLUs in PF, maybe 2 people max outside masked carnival, and a Job i haven't done anything on in 2 months, and I'm sure I'm not alone. If this is deemed as a success I'll laugh my head off.

I managed to get lucky today with a Shock Strike party and yesterday with a Dragon's Neck party, but wouldn't need to get lucky with PF if the job could just queue for duties.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

I managed to get lucky today with a Shock Strike party and yesterday with a Dragon's Neck party, but wouldn't need to get lucky with PF if the job could just queue for duties.

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That is pretty lucky, I'm on EU, and whenever I check the PF for BLU parties its crickets.

I'm sure we'll get another chance for a week once the BLU update lets it go to 60. Better get it all done in a week though.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

That is pretty lucky, I'm on EU, and whenever I check the PF for BLU parties its crickets.

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Didn't get too lucky. RNG on Shock Strike was not in my favour after several hours.

First limited BLU, then no healer, now gender locked races. This is a streak!