Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

Not to disagree, but aren't dragoons doing like 1500?

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examples for the sake of examples

Numbers here numbers there, for me BRD lost it's mojo.

The grove I allways felt while running and shooting, positioning ahead, evading while doing a barel roll mid air.
It's all gone now, I can either suck it up and be a BRD with a black pointy hat so I do my required DPS or play the old way and do less DPS than a WAR.

*sigh* ...a shame.

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Originally Posted by Gaignen

Bard used to be king of that, now we are not. MCH are better at it and Swiftcast can be used in a pinch to maintain BLM rotation. If I'm trying to IJ w/ 3s DoTs left and an AoE goes down under me: goodbye to 2 globals, 140 tp (resource management) and potency to boot, on top of the plain old potency lost from missing the global.

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I'll give you that last bit but I'll add that it's not like BLM doesn't have that same thing going on. If we run into a situation where we can't or shouldn't be using our swiftcast just to "maintain our rotation" (which is most of the time) we're not just losing a cast. We lost a huge nuke and the potential for several more huge nukes. Movement doesn't just suck for BLM now, it has the potential to be completely killer even when you plan for it.

Just so there's no confusion, I'm not arguing with you to say that Bards have it so easy and should just keep quiet. I leveled my bard just to see what it was like and while, personally, I don't really find it that difficult or "clunky" having played a BLM for the last two years, I do see where the frustration is. I just really find it hard to take anyone seriously who likens the Bards current situation to a BLM. More than once now the Bard in my static has complained about his "3 second casts" and every time he says it I just want to beat his face in. Bard doesn't have 3 second casts. Don't get me wrong when I say this because I absolute love BLM and I don't really have any issue with its current play style, but I would KILL for a 1.5 second cast time. I'd never miss a cast for any reason ever.

Totally true....I think playing Black Mage also helps me as Bard a ton. The 1.5 to me is not big deal I have learned to just play around it and it is not difficult and I don't think it "ruins" my thoughts of the job because I have played it since Beta phase 3 and I will always play it. If you really like a job you will roll with whatever changes they make...I think those that want to quit the job did not really like it to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

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You know what's weird? I play SCH, and in really bad fights up to T9 I've had to hardcast multiple raises in a row. Eight full seconds. It's agonizing, but it makes all other casts feel much more reasonable.
And yet, if my Warrior's DPS stance added a 1.5 second cast timer to all my moves it would drive me insane. There's no way I would ever want to do it. Very often what we find okay in one is just intolerable in the other. Isn't that odd?

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

If you really like a job you will roll with whatever changes they make...I think those that want to quit the job did not really like it to begin with.

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lol, you can't be serious. If they changed BRD into a healer that uses songs, would you automatically like it just because they still call it "Bard"? Would it be ok for them to add a pet for us to manage, make us stand in melee range, change us into a healer, force us to buy and carry ammo, or change our songs into a mudra-like system where we have to manually play the right combination of notes? What about all of these things at once? At what point is the change too much and it's no longer the job you loved? Everybody has that point. Who are you to say where it should be for anyone else?

btw, I enjoy playing my Bard. I just have enough empathy to understand why other people don't.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

If you really like a job you will roll with whatever changes they make...I think those that want to quit the job did not really like it to begin with.

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Unless if the change removes the thing you liked about the job.

I mean, really? So if they changed Ninja into a ranged DPS that just has a bunch of different ninjutsus and throwing weapons, anyone that quits because they liked it as a melee just never liked it to begin with?

So how do you explain that I still use my Bard for high level roulette because it scales me under the change, if I don't like it to begin with? I mean, I quit my Bard as main because I don't like the change, so according to you I don't like the job period, but I do play it in the runs where it's still the thing I liked. But that can't be, because that wouldn't make sense according to your theory.

This is still going. . .

I don't even know what to say anymore. Still leveling BRD (decided to focus more on WHM for now as it was needed more by my static/FC), having no issues with movement, damage, or cast times, and Barrage + Empyreal Arrow made me fall in love with BRD all over again.

I can understand if you just simply don't like losing the ability to move freely and still DPS. But overall Minuet is a great tool that does in fact require adjustment to use. Those who can, do. Those who can't, probably quit being a BRD. Their choice entirely. SE didn't break anything. They added a DPS utility to a job that was shoehorned into Support at the expense of DPS, and while that aspect hasn't gone away, we're still better for it in the end.

I made a BRD because my friends couldn't find one.

I got it to 53 and I don't think I can go much further.
In all my time of playing MMOs, I've never seen a class torn to shreds such as this one.
Not only did they change the tone and play style of the whole class, a major reason why people pick a specific class, but your skills no longer work properly with each other.
A poor, uninspired design choice with a ridiculously negative response rate is still being "tweaked" instead of nuked.
This is why games have public beta servers; when you try release this sort of nonsense you can be told to quit early.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

So how do you explain that I still use my Bard for high level roulette because it scales me under the change, if I don't like it to begin with?

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Haha I do the same thing. Currently leveling bard by doing only high roulette on it and also did the old relic quest until I got Animus for glamour. It's slow but it doesn't matter seeing as there are plenty of other jobs I can use for clan marks, fates and leveling roulette.

SE didn't break the Job, they've changed it and that change is a killer for some people.
And yes people are still going about it, I think that shows how much the players disliked the change.
I mean this post is at 134 pages atm, it shows that some didn't like it.
I'm one of them but hey I just wanted to voice my opinion, SE always wants feedback so I gave 'em mine.

They can do with Bard whatever they want, if it doesn't please me I can always go play another job.
Like BLM for example!

Anyways, still waiting for my Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Haha I do the same thing. Currently leveling bard by doing only high roulette on it and also did the old relic quest until I got Animus for glamour. It's slow but it doesn't matter seeing as there are plenty of other jobs I can use for clan marks, fates and leveling roulette.

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OMG...why haven't I thought of that yet...I love bard...but I love 2.0 bard not this 3.0 bastardization they call a bard. You two are absolutely brilliant and I could just kick myself for not thinking of that sooner. You two may have just breathed new life into this game for me.

Say, here's a crazy idea:

What if WM didn't enforce a cast timer but kept the damage boost and auto attacks disabled? On top of that, they could do a QoL change of making the animations for certain actions shorter (i.e. Heavy Shot and Bloodletter) so they reduce GCD clipping? If SE plans to make any further changes, I would at least expect a reduction on animation locking.

Of course, if such a change should occur then GB should be adjusted in a way to make it more appealing. Since some people claim that GB is well suited for MCH, SE could re-enable auto-attacks during the stance but have the damage boost parameters altered to have it only apply to weaponskills and abilities, and perhaps reduce the damage boost a bit since re-enabling auto attacks would be a substantial increase.

Just throwing this post out here because why not. Feel free to expand or suggest other ideas.

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Originally Posted by SlyRoyale

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I'd be satisfied if the bloodletter resets were reworked to accommodate for the fact you don't have as much freedom to weave oGCDs (let alone two of them in one GCD) as a bard...such as a stacking buff that boosts the potency of the next BL/RoD or a stacking "ammo" buff that allows for use of said skills. And fix the friggin proc detection for straighter shot.

Though I'd much prefer that WM or GB function differently from each other to diverse their respective job's playstyle, like one lowers GCD and TP costs without the damage boost. One appeal to me for ranged physical dps in constrast to typical casters was that their damage came from a lot of small hits (including auto attacks in this), rather than fewer big hits. I like to see many numbers rather than big numbers.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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Given our past talks about BRD and how you find GB to be a better fit for MCH, I think having the stance shorten the GCD would be better for MCH over BRD. If I remember correctly, you mentioned MCH actions being quick or having shorter animations, and their proc system allowing them to weave in their oGCDs with ease. Should SE go that route for MCH, they could re-adjust their native TP restore to give more TP as some jobs with shorter GCDs like MNK and NIN tend to run low on the resource during heavy uptime.

BRD, on the other hand, could do with simply having cast bars removed from WM. This would allow us to capitalize more on double-oGCD weaving and avoid a lot of GCD clipping (especially when trying to get two buffs up just before Iron Jaws). That way, it would regain most of how the job used to play back in 2.0 sans auto attacks. Having Straight Shot's damage be instant with its animation could help with Straighter Shot detection, too.

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Originally Posted by SlyRoyale

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You got the gist of it. If you compare split shot's animation with heavy shot, they are both skills that procs a buff to use another skill. The problem with heavy shot is that it's so long, you wont get the buff proc until after the GCD finishes. This isn't the case for something like Slug Shot or Heavy shot, but you never hard cast these abilities (so you always have a 2.5 second reaction time to wait for the proc), and there's no reason for you to ever mash clean shot after slug (unless you have ammo to guaranteed the proc).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWvxvL13-K4

Like you can see it here, and I even canceled heavy shot's animation with bloodletter; I won't get the buff's bonus (instant cast and 100%) crit until the icon of the skill is highlighted, and that doesn't occur until after my heavy shot had started casting.

My suggestion would't work too well for machinist either, or really any class that makes use of procs, it requires the job to be designed around it. Let's say that we make the stance give a 1.5s GCD with 1.5 second cooldown, that'll never give any reaction time for procs. You can't get rid of cast times because you need something to make them remain stationary, otherwise it'd be a stance with no downsides. It'd only really work for bard the way it is right now because honestly they have no way of playing reactively to their procs anyway.

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Originally Posted by seorin

lol, you can't be serious. If they changed BRD into a healer that uses songs, would you automatically like it just because they still call it "Bard"? Would it be ok for them to add a pet for us to manage, make us stand in melee range, change us into a healer

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No the question is are you serious? The did not make any changes like you are talking about. We lost a little bit of our mobility and if you know how to play the job properly you did not lose any mobility. You don't sit there like an idiot and never move. You set up and get your opener in and then you have mobility knowing how to use the 1.5 cast timer and if you have to move more than just a bit then you turn off Minuet and go into old school mode until you set up again and mechanics allow it.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The problem with heavy shot is that it's so long, you wont get the buff proc until after the GCD finishes.

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Even as a BLM accustomed to Firestarter, SS procs feel like they take forever (and like half the time it hard casts anyway). Fixing that would be great for QoL.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

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You missed the point. I wasn't talking about WM. I was talking about your no true scotsman fallacy.

You said, "If you really like a job you will roll with whatever changes they make." I'm saying they could make changes which even you wouldn't "roll with". There's no objective set of qualities that make a bard. Everybody has their own idea of what feels right to them, and your subjective experience holds no more weight than anyone else's. So don't act like you're the sole arbitrator for what constitutes a bard.

Have a little sympathy for people instead of denying they were bards in the first place.

I currently main MCN but thought I would level BRD to 60 as a backup. (currently lvl 56)

The only gripe I have with BRD over MCN is movement while using WM.

MCN, when you get a weaponskill proc, then your next skill is Instant cast, which makes movement during Gauss Barrel pretty easy.

BRD has this, but only through Straighter Shot, which is pretty rare compared to a MCN proc. BRD needs some other mechanic change to give it a bit more flexibility while in WM.

* IMO Empyreal Arrow, Sidewinder, Iron Jaws should be instant cast
* The Straighter Shot proc should either have an increased timer in order to hold it, for movement, or the Proc chance should be increased while under WM to 30%-40% - from 20%

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Originally Posted by Linadae

OMG...why haven't I thought of that yet...I love bard...but I love 2.0 bard not this 3.0 bastardization they call a bard. You two are absolutely brilliant and I could just kick myself for not thinking of that sooner. You two may have just breathed new life into this game for me.

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Yup I still love the old bard and don't want to give it up. If you haven't done the relic quest I really recommend it for the xp. I got 50-52 just by doing books for the animus. Old fates, monsters, leves and dungeons add up fast. The best part is trying to solo mega pulls in undersized dungeons. Lots of kiting :P

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

* IMO Empyreal Arrow, Sidewinder, Iron Jaws should be instant cast
* The Straighter Shot proc should either have an increased timer in order to hold it, for movement, or the Proc chance should be increased while under WM to 30%-40% - from 20%

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sidewinder is instant cast :) , but yeah we have been asking for EA and IJ to be instant cast , a way to store BL procs (up to 3?) and SS procs....no clue how to fix it because the game "works" like that.

i still feel like BRD was the last job and SE didnt have time , they had the plan , copy the MCH skills over brd ,and the animators didnt have time to give it proper and cool animations (compare SMN to BRD .... 1 feels like they worked hard on rotation and fun mechanics all while looking badass with that animations ...the bard in the other hand....ugh)

Have sorta recently gotten Gauss Barrel on Machinist I can say that, the "Cast Times" on Machinist work better because they have a combo system, so I can move more, compared to Bard, without losing DPS.

I am in the process of leveling my Bard atm.
A question, should I just be keeping up Foe Reqium even when there's no casters in the group? Do Bards have magic damage? I am guessing that '' wind damage '' means magic dmg ^^?

bards do not have magic damage, ninjas do with their mudras though

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Originally Posted by Rikkustrife

bards do not have magic damage, ninjas do with their mudras though

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Ah, okay thx. Wind damage sounds like magic tho :P. You also have flaming arrow.
I actually didn't even consider the mudras of Ninjas tho. Thx!

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Ah, okay thx. Wind damage sounds like magic tho :P. You also have flaming arrow.
I actually didn't even consider the mudras of Ninjas tho. Thx!

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many (most?) attacks in 1.0 had elements. Its something that was not removed, but does not have a huge use anymore.

I'm fairly new to the game, only been playing about a month or so. I just hit 55 and was curious about Wanderers Minuet, is it something I have to use at all times in dungeons? or even outside? I've gotten pretty used to the class and this skill just changes everything up for me. Thanks in advance for any answers.

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Originally Posted by Elitespy

I'm fairly new to the game, only been playing about a month or so. I just hit 55 and was curious about Wanderers Minuet, is it something I have to use at all times in dungeons? or even outside? I've gotten pretty used to the class and this skill just changes everything up for me. Thanks in advance for any answers.

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You should be using it when you can at that point. It's a damage boost if you can manage to use empyreal, bloodletter, flame arrow and blunt arrow whenever it's off cooldown.

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Originally Posted by xyaie

many (most?) attacks in 1.0 had elements. Its something that was not removed, but does not have a huge use anymore.

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There's still elements, but foe requiem specifically affects magic damage. Windbite, veno bite and flame arrow, while still considered elemental, is entirely physical for the DoT aspect, and piercing for the initial hit. There's really no point to elements in thsi game other than for flavor. Sure you can just fire a patch of fire that deals damage when they stand in it, but the game still wants to gloat that it is fire damage.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

sidewinder is instant cast :) , but yeah we have been asking for EA and IJ to be instant cast , a way to store BL procs (up to 3?) and SS procs....no clue how to fix it because the game "works" like that.

i still feel like BRD was the last job and SE didnt have time , they had the plan , copy the MCH skills over brd ,and the animators didnt have time to give it proper and cool animations (compare SMN to BRD .... 1 feels like they worked hard on rotation and fun mechanics all while looking badass with that animations ...the bard in the other hand....ugh)

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This sentence was perfect, they dont have time to BARD, Yoshi and Dev Team, please take a look on BRD give him some thought, these cast bar dont fit, there is no point in charge to fire an arrow!!!!

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

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There will always be a caster in your group: the healer. Should they assist with DPS, having Foe Requiem already up for them will help out, especially if they Holy/Gravity Bomb or Bane their DoTs. Two melee jobs--DRK and NIN--have magical attacks. The former has their dark spells, while the latter has their elemental ninjutsu (which excludes Fuma Shuriken since it deals physical slashing damage).

Ideally, you should be playing Foe Requiem whenever you can so anyone with magical attacks can capitalize on it. Just be careful since it can aggro mobs within range.

So MCH getting a QoL change kinda left me with a double feeling.
MCH was in a fine spot already but were given a QoL change anyway, meaning SE is willing to improve the class experience even when it's not broken.
Yet at the same time nothing happening to BRD which could use some small tweaks at the very least feels almost as if they want to shove it to the BRD's.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

So MCH getting a QoL change kinda left me with a double feeling.
MCH was in a fine spot already but were given a QoL change anyway, meaning SE is willing to improve the class experience even when it's not broken.
Yet at the same time nothing happening to BRD which could use some small tweaks at the very least feels almost as if they want to shove it to the BRD's.

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That double feeling is a little unwarranted. MCH was a quick QOL change that was more or less simply adjusting a CD. The bard issues that people claim (I don't know, I don't play Bard) sound like they may need more changes than just a shift in numbers to make you guys happy. Naturally that means that it takes more time. Be patient, I'm sure they've heard you guys by now.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Be patient, I'm sure they've heard you guys by now.

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Hopefully...
I'm not going to get my hopes up tho. Seeing how little they're disclosing about the current state of BRDs, I won't be surprised if they turned a blind eye toward the job then claiming that it's "working as intended".

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Originally Posted by KYuuma

Hopefully...
I'm not going to get my hopes up tho. Seeing how little they're disclosing about the current state of BRDs, I won't be surprised if they turned a blind eye toward the job then claiming that it's "working as intended".

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Usually if the performance is fine, they won't make much drastic changes to it or something directly is not working as intended. Which is a shame because I'd like for BRD (or MCH) to have their little perk rather than having GB/WM being functionally the same.

Take BLM for example, they've been having the firestarter thing since 2.0 and they never bothered correctthing it. Now it became a bit more of an issue because you couldn't sharp cast fire I and go straight into fire III; you'd still get the cast bar and mana cost. They even hot fixed that on 8/4/15 and bard is still left alone BRD's straighter shot procs.

Happy 3.X BRD reporting in.
The job feels a lot more in-depth and enjoyable than ever.

Everyone who's still whining about their 2.X casual mode BRD being taken away should really consider moving on.
It's obvious that SE won't bother "fixing" something that isn't even broken in the first place.

Though, if you have the time to complain about how you're going to quit your "favorite" job over the span of 2 months - instead of learning to enjoy it - isn't gonna get far with any other DPS job.

Change in rotations and openers is a thing you should always be seeking if it improves your dps and WM is just that.
Especially after they've added the new HW abilities I've realized how simple and bare-bones the ARR BRD feels compared to other dps jobs.
And that says a lot about people who picked that version of the BRD as their "absolute favorite"; no worries though, I've also mained PLD because it lets me multitask while running my dailies.

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Originally Posted by Trixxy

Everyone who's still whining about their 2.X casual mode BRD being taken away should really consider moving on.

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And you seemed to just skim over the topic, because I don't think the majority of us whose still on that topic is even having problem with bard being too hard or difficult, or otherwise not casual

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Originally Posted by Trixxy

Though, if you have the time to complain about how you're going to quit your "favorite" job over the span of 2 months - [I]instead of learning to enjoy it[/I] - isn't gonna get far with any other DPS job.

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I can't enjoy the fact that I cannot play re-actively to my procs. They'll almost always occur in the middle of a weaponskill or cast time. You'll always overshoot a straighter shot proc unless you purposely delay your next weapon skill or use empyreal arrow as the filler (which technically still goes beyond the weaponskill GCD). I've already made the switch to MCH and honestly, I'm glad I did; The two play extremely similiar to each other because of GB/WM being functionally the same, except only MCH has procs that occur fast enough for me to play reactively to it, BRD does not because it was not designed with cast times (and thus, a shorter buffer window inbetween each weaponskill)

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Originally Posted by Trixxy

Change in rotations and openers is a thing you should always be seeking if it improves your dps and WM is just that.

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Not to notpick, but bard does not have a proper rotation. Infact, they're probably the least changed in 3.0 as far as their ability usage is concerned. They have nothing that acts as filler for downtime or new combo extensions where they have to keep in track of timers and skill usage (to not break their combo)

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Originally Posted by Trixxy

Especially after they've added the new HW abilities I've realized how simple and bare-bones the ARR BRD feels compared to other dps jobs.

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And it still is, comparatively. As a fulltime bard main in 2.0 and having bard leveled to 60, they still play relatively the same with 2 extra skills to use, one skill that effectively replaces two, and an extremely situation buff. The only difference is the cast times, and all the problems that come with it because the original 2.0 archer trait/skills were not designed with cast times in mind.

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Originally Posted by Trixxy

And that says a lot about people who picked that version of the BRD as their "absolute favorite"; no worries though, I've also mained PLD because it lets me multitask while running my dailies.

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Keep in mind that there's an incredibly big pool of bard players, some of which who have mained their class since 2.0. This topic has gone on for over 100 pages, and it's typically the same people that are still talking in it (that is, some of those who are unhappy because of reasons I've stated above). You're not exactly helping when you don't keep up with the discussion and generalizing (when those people who complain about movement, one I don't necessarily agree with, aren't even in the topic now)

Well im not whining about my bard, but i can understand people who are not happy with the groundbreaking HW changes of the bards-playstyle. bards were never meant to be dps-kings but they were the best class considering battlemovment. i would love a LP-Song or matk-reflect song rather than this 20% dmg buff. i also liked the bards arr lb more than this strange... aoe-in-line lb now but thats probably just me... after all i still think castbars dont fit bards atk-rotations or their playstyles - but you are right i dont think SE will change those skillmechanics in the near future and people should overthink if they still like this class or not. if you like arr style just use 1/5 of the hw skills or simple change class – but whining wont change anything.

just my personal opinion
Neela :)

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Originally Posted by Trixxy

2.X casual mode BRD

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Funny, since 3.x is even more casual thanks to Iron Jaws making TP management so easy and cast bars limit what you can actually do with OGCDs.

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instead of learning to enjoy it

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You don't "learn to enjoy" something. You either enjoy it or you don't. I'm not paying them money for me to not enjoy something for months until I decide it's really okay.

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Change in rotations and openers is a thing you should always be seeking if it improves your dps and WM is just that.

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And we're seeking changes such as timing of straighter shot procs and missing BL procs during casts so that it improves our DPS. So I guess what you're saying is we should keep complaining because we should always be seeking changes to increase our DPS?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Take BLM for example, they've been having the firestarter thing since 2.0 and they never bothered correctthing it. Now it became a bit more of an issue because you couldn't sharp cast fire I and go straight into fire III; you'd still get the cast bar and mana cost. They even hot fixed that on 8/4/15

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The issue they speak of is actually one I've never experienced. You still need to wait for the proc to "appear" before using Fire III, if you start casting Fire III immediately after sharpcasted Fire, you'd still hardcast it.

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Originally Posted by Hontaro

The issue they speak of is actually one I've never experienced. You still need to wait for the proc to "appear" before using Fire III, if you start casting Fire III immediately after sharpcasted Fire, you'd still hardcast it.

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Then it sounds like SE failed at just that. Your example is exactly what's happening with Bards atm with their straighter shot proc; it doesn't even appear until a split second after your weaponskill finishes its cooldown. All the worse because SS is a regular part of their shot cycle for refreshing the buff, and there's nothing more frustrating than hardcasting SS when you have the buff (you don't get the 100% crit rate either).