Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

Okay, I am going to get another real example, most of you should have this experience before so I will leave the judgement for yourself.

Let's say you are in a school project with another 3 people. Good mark is at stake here, and there is this guy underperforming, dilly-dallying for whatever reasons, and most of the work is done by the 3 of you. How do you feel about that? I would kick that member out and have him pick up the project himself for trying to be a freeloader OR at least tell the teacher to do something about it. It's the same case when you have 3 top students having to deal with a barely passing student, it's just not ideal for the 3 people. Substitute school project and good mark with end-game raid and clear respectively and you get this situation we are in currently. I don't like freeloaders. Do you?

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

there is this guy underperforming, dilly-dallying for whatever reasons, and most of the work is done by the 3 of you

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So, a tank staying in tank stance is "dilly-dailying" ?
How "most of the work" would DPS do if they had to take the hits with a tank really "underperforming" ?

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Let's say you are in a school project with another 3 people.

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Let's say you make a game with three other people. You do the level design, another does the game design, one does the AI and the last makes all the user interface. In the end, you get a comfortable passing grade, would you chastize the UI-guy because it didn't help you on the level design ?

DPS is not the only high-skill-check agenda. At the highest level, your ability to DPS is checked in combination with your ability to manage enmity and survive.

But really, you obviously have your biases.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Let's say you make a game with three other people. You do the level design, another does the game design, one does the AI and the last makes all the user interface. In the end, you get a comfortable passing grade, would you chastize the UI-guy because it didn't help you on the level design ?

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You need to quantify the load and how good are the parts the person does, if the project is heavy on game design and way less for UI, obviously the guy in charge of it is doing less load. If the game design is so freaking good that it receives praises from the pros while the UI sucks balls and that alone brought down the marking, what would you feel as the one in charge of the game design? It just feels like you are carrying that UI guy, because that's the fact.

Also, what if I tell you that each group has different expectation? What if 3 top students get just passing marks because of that 1 guy doing just enough to pass? It's all in the expectation and failure to meet that ends up with frustration among the members. If you just want to clear, fine, but your team might not want it, hence you have this problem. Finding teams with same goal is hard, but you seem to just retire than having to try dealing with players, that's motivation you are lacking above anything else.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

DPS is not the only high-skill-check agenda. At the highest level, your ability to DPS is checked in combination with your ability to manage enmity and survive.

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Ability to survive, which is dependent on your cooldown rotation, which, as you acknowledged yourself earlier, is exactly the same wether you stance dance or not...as for enmity as a WAR...

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

You need to quantify the load and how good are the parts the person does, if the project is heavy on game design and way less for UI, obviously the guy in charge of it is doing less load.

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Well, after several time, I think a clever teacher would just balance the project better between UI and game design, instead of forcing the UI-designer to learn the game designer's job.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

If the game design is so freaking good that it receives praises from the pros while the UI sucks balls and that alone brought down the marking, what would you feel as the one in charge of the game design? It just feels like you are carrying that UI guy, because that's the fact.

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So, again, staying in tank stance is "sucking balls" ?

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Also, what if I tell you that each group has different expectation? What if 3 top students get just passing marks because of that 1 guy doing just enough to pass?

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If that's the case here, then everybody posting on this forum (Except me, obviously), is world-first material...

Just a few questions for Brian_(or others), since he's clearly knowledgeable (no joke there), on Savage. How much DPS should a proper DPS do in Creator savage, approximately ? And how much DPS should a tank do (With and without stance dancing if possible) ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Ability to survive, which is dependent on your cooldown rotation, which, as you acknowledged yourself earlier, is exactly the same wether you stance dance or not...as for enmity as a WAR...

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As I acknowledged earlier? I explained exactly how it's drastically different depending on how conservative you are with your stance. Your ability to completely distort reality to fit your biases never fails to amaze me.

And yea, enmity on WAR. When you need higher path up-time in early prog while not dropping eye to maximize DPS, enmity is an issue especially after a tank swap with a PLD. Or, when you are trying to pick up an add amidst large amounts of AoE healing without relying on your tank stance's enmity bonus.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

As I acknowledged earlier? I explained exactly how it's drastically different depending on how conservative you are with your stance. Your ability to completely distort reality to fit your biases never fails to amaze me.

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Yeah, sure...

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  Originally Posted by Reynhart

  Great and precise explanation (Honestly). But, let me ask you something, if you stayed in Defiance, would you use your CD differently ? For the sixth and seven busters, would you refrain from using Vengeance ?

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  Originally Posted by Brian_

  No, I would still use my CDs as there is nothing else to use them on for one CD cycle.

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The only thing you said is that tank stance offer a surplus of mitigation. But, again, your cooldown rotation has actually noting to do with that.

Yeah, sure... ignore the actual meat of those posts where I provide the actual details and single out your very self-serving question with biased framing. What are you? Fox News?

The difference in summary is if you sit there in tank stance, it really doesn't matter what you use for CDs. If you are trying to push DPS, you need a refined CD rotation and pin-point CD timing or you will get 1 shot. In other words, if you push DPS, the damage intake suddenly becomes a check of how skilled you are at surviving. When you are just turtling up like a baddy, it doesn't matter as much.

The full context of that answer which you conveniently ignored is that I said I used my CD because I might as well. There is nothing else to use those CDs on for a full recast. I don't use them because the content checks to see if I know how to.

As for DPS,

Discounting AoE DPS padding, average DPS between melee, ranged, and casters in a live fight, should be somewhere around ~2100-2300 at ~i260-270 with high up-time. The lower the up-time, the lower that number.

Under similar conditions, tank DPS should be around ~1000-1100 with 100% tank-stance and ~1400-1700 with 100% DPS-stance.

I'm not sure that I follow the reasoning that this thread has taken.

If you want to sit back, take it easy, and enjoy the story, the option is there. Nobody is forcing you to try hard or take the game too seriously. If you want a challenge, and you want to push yourself, the option is there. You will have to try hard and take the game seriously, but hey, you just asked for it. I feel like we're dancing between these two viewpoints simply for the sake of making idle conversation, and dragging it out every time someone jumps at a snippet of conversation bait. You cannot be both people at once. The game cannot be simultaneously too easy and too hard. I feel like this tangent is impeding any meaningful discussion on 4.0 tank rotations.

I'm really happy about the mention of the GUI changes and the idea of an Intermediate Training Hall. I'd like to see the latter integrated with the Stone, Sea, Sky system to serve as an entry point to raiding, just as Hall of the Novice served as an entry point into dungeons. I also think it's interesting to note that we may see Accuracy and Parry stats removed from gear. There were hints to suggest that we were moving in this direction earlier.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

The full context of that answer which you conveniently ignored is that I said I used my CD because I might as well. There is nothing else to use those CDs on for a full recast. I don't use them because the content checks to see if I know how to.

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Problem is, normally, you should learn how to properly use your CD for maximum efficiency before learning when you can drop your stance. And once you master that, suddenly, dropping your stance has no effect on that. By the way you say it, it seems you're doing it the opposite. Is that really how progression work in Savage ?

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Discounting AoE DPS padding, average DPS between melee, ranged, and casters in a live fight, should be somewhere around ~2100-2300 at ~i260-270 with high up-time. Under similar conditions, tank DPS should be around ~1000-1100 with 100% tank-stance and ~1400-1700 with 100% DPS-stance.

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Thanks for the number.
For easy calculation, I will average everything so DPS are at 2200, turtle-tank at 1050 and DPS-tank at 1550. I won't count DPS from healers in the mix, since it would only lowers tank DPS proportion in the end.

So, with 4 DPS, a full OT and a full MT, you end with 11400 DPS (2200*4+1550+1050). The turtle tank counts for just above 9% of the total DPS. The higher dps stance uptime, the higher this number will mean, to a maximum of...13% with 100% DPS stance uptime. Even if I take the lowest turtle number (1000) and the highest DPS-tank number (1700), we'd go from 8% to 14%.

So, in the end, people are harshly rejecting "less optimal" tanks for, at worst, 4% lower performance of the whole group (Again, not counting healer's DPS). Disproportionate retribution, isn't it ? And since someone compared damage dealt and damage taken, I wonder if the overall damage taken increase isn't actually higher than 4% if your tank stays out of tank stance all the time. And I think it probably has less impact that the actual job you take (i.e having a turtle DRK instead of a turtle PLD has more effect than having a turtle PLD instead of a dancing PLD...)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you want a challenge, and you want to push yourself, the option is there.

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Yes, but I still feel that the challenge only really pushes DPS optimization (Even is you say that surviving is harder as a consequence) . That's why I'd like to have a tank with highest but less on-demand mitigation so that you could meaningfully push it in that direction.