[Reminder] Are you ready to cry again? (2° Wave of Alpha invites tomorrow, 3 dec.)

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Yes. It's not the end of the world. That's why I'm not "angry", "crying" or "butthurt", but I'm instead providing criticism in a balanced and rational way in the midst of a lot of people throwing insults and trying their hardest to antagonize those that dare to be disappointed with the situation.

Very few things are the end of the world. Even ARR launching and after that crashing and burning wouldn't be the end of the world. There are plenty of games to play in the market. This doesn't mean we should provide criticism only on what would be the end of the world.

I'm sure SE doesn't agree with the fact that longtime subscribers should get priority to testing, and that's exactly why I provide my criticism. If they agreed, I and others wouldn't need to criticize at all.

In the same situation other developers simply considered and consider the feedback of their supporters better than SE did (and we're talking about developers that have but a fraction of the resources and budgets SE has). I think bringing it to their attention has value, and that's why I do it.

As for the beta being around the corner, that's great (providing that it's true, as we really don't know and won't until they release the updated roadmap), but it's simply besides the point. As a matter of fact, criticism is important to let SE know that maybe there are better ways to consider the feedback of their long time supporters than they did with the alpha.

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Criticism is fine, but remember, you are only criticising as far as your opinion of how things should be. SE, I'm sure, has their reasons for how they handled alpha. I, too, am disappointed for not getting into alpha. But to tell you the truth, whether or not they allow a few loyalists in to test a game's alpha mode doesn't really say that SE doesn't value the opinions of their customers. Some loyalists did get in. Also, some people who haven't been there as long as us got in. We simply weren't amongst the chosen few. It can be a bitter pill to take, but like I said before, I'm sure SE has their reasons. This isn't their first ball game, after all. Anyway, I'm sure those who got in are providing some good feedback (some of them, at least). And our feedback can come later.

So telling him to stop whining after a month of complaining about not getting an invite ist instantly....

It gonna be funny to read his post if they don't let him in beta neither ^^

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Originally Posted by ispano

Yes, instantly. As in their first response to it is "Waahh, stop crying" and the like.

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that' s a problem of someone else. But in this istant, enough is enough

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

So telling him to stop whining after a month of complaining about not getting an invite ist instantly....

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Considering what he's doing and how he's doing it is far from whining? Also considering your first post in response to him is to instantly call him a whiner.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

that' s a problem of someone else. But in this istant, enough is enough

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Your first response to him in this thread was also to call him a whiner. So for someone else? No.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

You been saying the same thing " Oh, Non-actives are getting in!" Just in a more longwided post ever since Alpha started here in NA. I'm sorry but you are spamming.

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Looking inwardly would do you good, considering that you've been saying the same things over and over since the alpha started as well, and actually with an higher frequency than I do.

This, of course, without mentioning all those that do nothing else than posting motivated pictures with just another variation of "u mad!" because they have really nothing to contribute to the debate.

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Originally Posted by Firon

If anything what SE has been doing is smart they have sent Alpha invites to a lot of popular mmo players on twitch t.v who gets like 5-20k views per day and those guys have been talking fondly of the game.

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Too bad that inviting those few people (the input of which is very debatable this early, as it'll be well forgotten by when it's time to buy the game, in addition to being an open invitation to break the NDA) doesn't conflict in any way with inviting those that actually support the game.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

Criticism is fine, but remember, you are only criticising as far as your opinion of how things should be. SE, I'm sure, has their reasons for how they handled alpha. I, too, am disappointed for not getting into alpha. But to tell you the truth, whether or not they allow a few loyalists in to test a game's alpha mode doesn't really say that SE doesn't value the opinions of their customers. Some loyalists did get in. Also, some people who haven't been there as long as us got in. We simply weren't amongst the chosen few. It can be a bitter pill to take, but like I said before, I'm sure SE has their reasons. This isn't their first ball game, after all. Anyway, I'm sure those who got in are providing some good feedback (some of them, at least). And our feedback can come later.

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I'm sure they have their reason. Just as much as they had their reasons to release FFXIV the way they did. This doesn't and shouldn't prevent me or anyone else from telling them "hey, SE, your reasons and priorities are all over the place".

The fact that they didn't invite all their most loyal supporter, does, in my opinion, show that they don't value their feedback enough. Other companies manage to do so, so it's possible. They just chose not to, and that's the problem.

They didnt invite you, this doesn't mean they didn't invite alot other long time players or did you ask every single player?

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

Again, this is what you think about yourself. Yes, i find inadequate your criticism, at this time. You said your point of view many times at day, for a month. We understood. They readed, and maybe understood. Why keep insisting ? They'll not respond to that in every case. You're just looking like a crybaby after all this time you didn't get your invite, and that isn't a feedback at all.

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Again, Inadequate doesn't mean what you think it means. The word you're looking for is "inappropriate":

Why keep insisting? Simply because my concerns haven't been in any way addressed. Other people keep saying that SE can do no wrong and have been saying that for just as long. You seem to think they're entitled to continue doing so. So why exactly am I not?

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

They didnt invite you, this doesn't mean they didn't invite alot other long time players or did you ask every single player?

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As this thread and many other demonstrates (alongside with all the people I know), they didn't invite a whole lot of long time players.

Of course I can't make up statistics (nor you can), but the fact that a whole lot of long time players that supported this game through thick and thin haven't been given a chance to provide feedback on the alpha is, indeed, an undeniable fact.

And I find it inappropriate.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

This, of course, without mentioning all those that do nothing else than posting motivated pictures with just another variation of "u mad!" because they have really nothing to contribute to the debate.



Too bad that inviting those few people (the input of which is very debatable this early, as it'll be well forgotten by when it's time to buy the game, in addition to being an open invitation to break the NDA) doesn't conflict in any way with inviting those that actually support the game.

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Except that those people viewing will play anything they play so its good free marketing for the game and a lot more people wanna try the game out now. I'll say it one more time you only needed an active account to apply and SE is allowed to invite anyone they want. Also for the 4th or 5th time Yoshi stated a long time ago he wanted to target inactive players for the alpha/beta.

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Looking inwardly would do you good, considering that you've been saying the same things over and over since the alpha started as well, and actually with an higher frequency than I do.

This, of course, without mentioning all those that do nothing else than posting motivated pictures with just another variation of "u mad!" because they have really nothing to contribute to the debate.

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And you repeating yourself like a parrot isn't Contributing either, it's "Spamming". We got your point, we understand your point, Just some of us don't "agree" with your point of view. Which is fine. I was debating with you when Alpha started and you started complaining, that was fine, but now 2-3 weeks later, your still going on about the "same" things over and over

and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. -.-

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As this thread and many other demonstrates (alongside with all the people I know), they didn't invite a whole lot of long time players.

Of course I can't make up statistics (nor you can), but the fact that a whole lot of long time players that supported this game through thick and thin haven't been given a chance to provide feedback on the alpha is, indeed, an undeniable fact.

And I find it inappropriate.

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My friend got into Alpha he doesn't even own a pc.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Except that those people viewing will play anything they play so its good free marketing for the game and a lot more people wanna try the game out now. I'll say it one more time you only needed an active account to apply and SE is allowed to invite anyone they want. Also for the 4th or 5th time Yoshi stated a long time ago he wanted to target inactive players for the alpha/beta.

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You don't have any real data on that. Those people will be playing other games too this coming year, as they jump from beta to beta in order to pump their channel.

You don't need an active account to apply, despite what SE itself said. unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

And you repeating yourself like a parrot isn't Contributing either, it's "Spamming". We got your point, we understand your point, Just some of us don't "agree" with your point of view. Which is fine. I was debating with you when Alpha started and you started complaining, that was fine, but now 2-3 weeks later, your still going on about the "same" things over and over

and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. -.-

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You don't seem to grasp the fact that what you're saying can easily be applied to yourself as well, and actually more appropriately.

Looks like your idea of "spamming" is "repeating a concept, unless you agree with Starlord".

Yeah. very convenient indeed.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Again, Inadequate doesn't mean what you think it means. The word you're looking for is "inappropriate":

Why keep insisting? Simply because my concerns haven't been in any way addressed. Other people keep saying that SE can do no wrong and have been saying that for just as long. You seem to think they're entitled to continue doing so. So why exactly am I not?



As this thread and many other demonstrates (alongside with all the people I know), they didn't invite a whole lot of long time players.

Of course I can't make up statistics (nor you can), but the fact that a whole lot of long time players that supported this game through thick and thin haven't been given a chance to provide feedback on the alpha is, indeed, an undeniable fact.

And I find it inappropriate.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You don't have any real data on that. Those people will be playing other games too this coming year, as they jump from beta to beta in order to pump their channel.

You don't need an active account to apply, despite what SE itself said. unfortunately.



You don't seem to grasp the fact that what you're saying can easily be applied to yourself as well, and actually more appropriately.

Looks like your idea of "spamming" is "repeating a concept, unless you agree with Starlord".

Yeah. very convenient indeed.

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No you don't need an active account to get an INVITE

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You don't have any real data on that. Those people will be playing other games too this coming year, as they jump from beta to beta in order to pump their channel.

You don't need an active account to apply, despite what SE itself said. unfortunately.



You don't seem to grasp the fact that what you're saying can easily be applied to yourself as well, and actually more appropriately.

Looks like your idea of "spamming" is "repeating a concept, unless you agree with Starlord".

Yeah. very convenient indeed.

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Yeah well look at the person who started it all... hmmm, I have a reason to do such things :O.

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Originally Posted by Firon

No you don't need an active account to get an INVITE

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Incoming Line!:

"- Must currently have an active FINAL FANTASY XIV account"

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Originally Posted by Velhart

That would be an extremely unfair situation if SE decided to intentionally exclude those who may have been suspended in their forums in the past.

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I guess you're right. I have more faith in Square than to think they'd pull something like that.

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Originally Posted by Firon

No you don't need an active account to get an INVITE

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No. You don't need an active account to apply, despite what Se said. A friend of mine got invited today, and she applied two weeks ago despite her account having been inactive since the first month. She definitely isn't the only one.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Yeah well look at the person who started it all... hmmm, I have a reason to do such things :O.

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The person who started it all? I sure didn't open any of the threads about it.

The funny part is that you're more active in those threads (saying the same things over and over) than I am.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Your first response to him in this thread was also to call him a whiner. So for someone else? No.

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you said "Yes, instantly. As in their first response to it is "Waahh, stop crying" and the like.".
Since my first response to him was after a while, it didn't count :P

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Originally Posted by Abriael

No. You don't need an active account to apply. A friend of mine got invited today, and she applied two weeks ago despite her account having been inactive since the first month. She definitely isn't the only one.



The person who started it all? I sure didn't open any of the threads about it.

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No.. but you sure as heck continued it, at least they "stop" -.-.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Expressing the same thing over and over and over again is considered "Spamming".

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Then you might wanna change your signature.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

No.. but you sure as heck continued it

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So did you. And many others. Your point?

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Then you might wanna change your signature.

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LoL, Sigs are totally not that same thing, as they are not "posts" :P

However, you are indeed right, I should s=change it, as it is getting boring ^.^.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

So did you. And many others. Your point?

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You only took part of my post and not the full post XD, that's because you don't wanna stop.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Again, Inadequate doesn't mean what you think it means. The word you're looking for is "inappropriate":

Why keep insisting? Simply because my concerns haven't been in any way addressed. Other people keep saying that SE can do no wrong and have been saying that for just as long. You seem to think they're entitled to continue doing so. So why exactly am I not?

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first, what other people think it's not my concerne. The bad news abrael, they CAN continue doing like this, fair or unfair, and with all the anger we could get together for not having an invite.
It's not fair, but it's their right. Their game, their rules.

Feedback != we rule your choice

Anyway for the love of God just:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...9/wrapitup.jpg

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

first, what other people think it's not my concerne. The bad news abrael, they CAN continue doing like this, fair or unfair, and with all the anger we could get together for not having an invite.
It's not fair, but it's their right. Their game, their rules.

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Absolutely. Just as much it's our right, as paying customers, to provide feedback and criticism about it, and to draw our conclusions on how much they care about the feedback of their most loyal customers.

"Action <-> Reaction" is a very solid rule in commerce.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Anyway for the love of God just:

(insert useless and space-consuming motivated picture here)

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You are aware of the fact that no one holds you at gunpoint to read what we write?

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Originally Posted by Firon

Anyway for the love of God just:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...9/wrapitup.jpg

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Yes, please -.- this has been going on for long enough.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Yes, please -.- this has been going on for long enough.

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You're the one that keeps coming back. Criticism won't disappear just because you really really want it to. It's our right to express it, whether you like it or not.

Stop trying to use the paying customers excuse everyone paid for the game at some point. Even if you just bought the game @ release.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Stop trying to use the paying customers excuse everyone paid for the game at some point. Even if you just bought the game @ release.

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When a game requires a periodic fee, if you discontinue paying that fee, you're not a paying customer anymore. That's the difference between a one-time product and a continuated service. MMOs are a service.

Having paid once != Being a paying customer

It's not an excuse. It's a fact.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

When a game requires a periodic subscription, if you discontinue that subscription, you're not a paying customer anymore.

It's not an excuse. It's a fact.

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Still paid for the product.... it was enough money from the sales to fund the game going free for a year so they paid more than enough.

Also just because you paid a sub does not mean you auto get into alpha, you would be crying the same song no matter the outcome anyway.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You're the one that keeps coming back. Criticism won't disappear just because you really really want it to. It's our right to express it, whether you like it or not.

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And your the one that won't stop repeating yourself. Consideration is a wonderful word -.-. It's not like your saying it for the first- 10th time this is like 100 times now. Your right I should stop.. but are you giving me a reason to?

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Expressing the same thing over and over and over again is considered "Spamming".

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Well, people spamming they want something towards an end goal is pretty much how things have worked since the beginning of history. Results may vary.

It is not how many times you express it, it is how well you express it each time.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

And your the one that won't stop repeating yourself.

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So are you. Your point?

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Consideration is a wonderful word -.-. It's not like your saying it for the first- 10th time this is like 100 times now. Your right I should stop.. but are you giving me a reason to?

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Sure I am. I'm providing solid arguments you evidently can't counter. That would be reason enough for someone to stop. But whether you want to stop or not, you sure can't accuse anyone of being a "spammer" when you're actually repeating yourself more than he does.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Still paid for the product.... it was enough money from the sales to fund the game going free for a year so they paid more than enough.

Also just because you paid a sub does not mean you auto get into alpha, you would be crying the same song no matter the outcome anyway.

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1: you have no idea where they got the funds for the game to be free for a year. It's not a given that they covered it with box sales. Actually, it's highly improbable.
2: There's a large difference between products and services. With a service that requires a periodic fee, you're a paying customer only as long as you don't discontinue the payiment of that fee. And this is what an MMORPG is. You're not paying for the files included in the disc or for the disc itself, but for the license to use those assets. As soon as you stop paying, the license is interrupted, and with it your status as paying customer.
3: making arbitrary assumptions on what I "would" do doesn't really add any solidity to your argument beside a petty personal attack.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

I'm sure they have their reason. Just as much as they had their reasons to release FFXIV the way they did. This doesn't and shouldn't prevent me or anyone else from telling them "hey, SE, your reasons and priorities are all over the place".

The fact that they didn't invite all their most loyal supporter, does, in my opinion, show that they don't value their feedback enough. Other companies manage to do so, so it's possible. They just chose not to, and that's the problem.

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Now come on, Abriael, you're comparing apples to step ladders. Having released FF14 in 1.0 is not the same as not inviting all the loyalists in to test beta. That's like saying not inviting all the loyalists in to test beta is the same as the people who steered the Titanic deciding to "Go ahead and plow past that iceburg, it won't hurt anything". FF14 being released as it was was a terrible mistake for many reasons. Not letting all the people who were loyal to FF14 in to test alpha, not so much. At most, they have a few people who are disappointed they didn't get selected to test the alpha stage of a game. Big deal.

Not letting all the loyalists in may mean to you that they don't value the feedback of loyalists enough, but it's just an opinion. One that, of course, I have to disagree with. Besides, what about the loyalists who DID get in? So, according to them, SE does value the opinion of their most loyal fans. See where your argument has laws? Your disappointment is clear. So is mine. But let's not fly off at the handle and judge SE to be "doing it wrong" just because we ddn't all get an invite. As I said before, I'm sure they have their reasons for doing it the way they did. I'm also sure they are aware of who the loyalists are, and I'm sure they knew there'd be some disappointed people who didn't get into alpha. They've dealt with this sort of thing before, I'm sure. They've been around, you know? lol

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

It's not fair, but it's their right. Their game, their rules.

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Yes, but there's also a concept called bait & switch and bad business practices which if it continues into beta, there's a good chance it will shine an even more negative light onto SE because they're already in a bad spotlight, especially when it comes to XIV.

While B&S is usually in terms of pricing, basically trying to keep people around with the lure they'll be able to participate in it and the exact opposite happens is essentially the same thing. You need an active account to apply, that clearly isn't the case when you do simple searches you can see just as many screenshots of alpha and the forums as well people who admittedly were inactive and got in.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

And your the one that won't stop repeating yourself. Consideration is a wonderful word -.-. It's not like your saying it for the first- 10th time this is like 100 times now. Your right I should stop.. but are you giving me a reason to?

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Starlord, you do the same god damn thing you're accusing him of. Whether it's to defend SE, apologize for them or to antagonize others, you do the same thing, so it's best to just drop it until you realize you do it yourself because hell, when someone "whines or complains" you're the first person there to call them a crybaby. Yes, Starlord, Criticism is real and it's allowed and yes it comes in the form of repetition because that's how you get concerns heard.

You don't hear about things changing because 1 person says it once and that's it, now do you?

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tarlord, you do the same god damn thing you're accusing him of. Whether it's to defend SE, apologize for them or to antagonize others, you do the same thing, so it's best to just drop it until you realize you do it yourself because hell, when someone "whines or complains" you're the first person there to call them a crybaby. Yes, Starlord, Criticism is real and it's allowed and yes it comes in the form of repetition because that's how you get concerns heard.

You don't hear about things changing because 1 person says it once and that's it, now do you?

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Yes I am repeating myself you are indeed correct, but is he even attempting to stop himself? that's the real question here.

Also, if one person is the only one complaining about such things.. don;t you think it's a little pointless to Complain when you don't have a group to follow your cause?

I only see him...

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Originally Posted by Abriael

When a game requires a periodic fee, if you discontinue paying that fee, you're not a paying customer anymore. That's the difference between a one-time product and a continuated service. MMOs are a service.

Having paid once != Being a paying customer

It's not an excuse. It's a fact.

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Are you paying for it right now or did you pay at any time the alpha was running?

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

Now come on, Abriael, you're comparing apples to step ladders. Having released FF14 in 1.0 is not the same as not inviting all the loyalists in to test beta. That's like saying not inviting all the loyalists in to test beta is the same as the people who steered the Titanic deciding to "Go ahead and plow past that iceburg, it won't hurt anything". FF14 being released as it was was a terrible mistake for many reasons. Not letting all the people who were loyal to FF14 in to test alpha, not so much. At most, they have a few people who are disappointed they didn't get selected to test the alpha stage of a game. Big deal.

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That doesn't really matter. Both are decisions that were made with a reason, and both the decisions and reasons are subject to criticism. That's a paying customer's prerogative.

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Not letting all the loyalists in may mean to you that they don't value the feedback of loyalists enough, but it's just an opinion. One that, of course, I have to disagree with. Besides, what about the loyalists who DID get in? So, according to them, SE does value the opinion of their most loyal fans. See where your argument has laws? Your disappointment is clear. So is mine. But let's not fly off at the handle and judge SE to be "doing it wrong" just because we ddn't all get an invite. As I said before, I'm sure they have their reasons for doing it the way they did. I'm also sure they are aware of who the loyalists are, and I'm sure they knew there'd be some disappointed people who didn't get into alpha. They've dealt with this sort of thing before, I'm sure. They've been around, you know? lol

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Them having "Been around" didn't prevent them from making mistakes in the past, just as many other companies. Unfortunately experience doesn't work as an automatic vaccine for mistakes.

SE may value the opinion of *a percentage* of their loyal customers. But in my opinion (and obviously I'm not alone there), not allowing *all* their loyal customers to provide proper feedback of the alpha means that they don't have that opinion in a sufficiently high consideration.

Since other companies have managed to pull that off without a hitch. I'm in my right to think that SE isn't doing enough on that front.

Of course it's an opinion. Criticism almost always is.

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

Are you paying for it right now or did you pay at any time the alpha was running?

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When the fee is discontinued by the provider unilaterally the qualification of paying customer isn't lost, unless the service isn't discontinued as well. The service is continuing (and this very forum, to which only paying customers can access, is part of it) and SE suspended billing unilaterally, so the qualification isn't lost.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

I only see him...

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LOL. You need thick glasses.

There have been several people that have agreed with me, and there continue to be. Your reading is extremely selective according to personal convenience, I see, just as your application of the "spammer" definition.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

you said "Yes, instantly. As in their first response to it is "Waahh, stop crying" and the like.".
Since my first response to him was after a while, it didn't count :P

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Your first response was an instant "You're crying". Simple as that. Even if it WASN'T the first response, he's doing anything but crying.

So all the loyalists that didnt get into alpha and you know is a bunch of ppl that are active in this forum, thats maybe 1% of the active long time player prolly less. You don't even know about all ppl in this thread if they are in or not cause they not allowed to say it without beaking the NDA...

The possibility that there alot loyalists in the alpha is very high, and at the end this is all about that you didnt get in and not all these other ppl. Thats something you point out quite often cause you got invited for all these other games so these Publisher are smart and here you did not get an invitation so SE is dumb....

http://i.qkme.me/35m0sj.jpg