Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Niroken

Maybe we should get this out of the way first then, exactly what is the official amount of time should we have with the new changes before voicing our concerns?

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Nice attempt at a trap considering you have had no testing time at all and we're going to base your rebuttal off changes that have not been tested by the public.

Edit. Again I am only speaking about making definitive statements about the whm.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Nice attempt at a trap considering you have had no testing time at all and we're going to base your rebuttal off changes that have not been tested by the public.

Edit. Again I am only speaking about making definitive statements about the whm.

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What trap, it's a question. People keep saying that we should wait, I just don't want to keep having to retype after early access, after a week, after a month, after easy raid, after savage raid, after 24 man, after second savage, etc due to people saying wait until so and so date. I've seen it happen before many a game.

When can we be justified in our concerns? Level 70?

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Originally Posted by Niroken

What trap, it's a question. People keep saying that we should wait, I just don't want to keep having to retype after early access, after a week, after a month, after easy raid, after savage raid, after 24 man, after second savage, etc due to people saying wait until so and so date. I've seen it happen before many a game.

When can we be justified in our concerns? Level 70?

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No one said the concerns were not justified. There is a major difference between concerns and screaming a class is dead. Sadly unless you have all the tool you don't truly know, but if you are struggling with content then start speaking up. If you have to have a time frame. However, prior to ever laying your hands on the class the omfg you killed class my I quit reactions are just childish. Not saying you specifically did this, but if you've read all my posts that's what I'm talking about. Guessing you have not based on your questioning.

Has anyone run simulations and compared them to existing numbers or rotations? Seems we have enough info to simulate a few scenarios.

Looks like everything got merged.

Oh well, hopefully they'll use this as the go-to thread for players' issues with the class.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

The problem is most are not voicing concerns or even acknowledging that things could change. They are making definitive declarative statements that the white Mage is dead. They have written off the class without even trying it themselves. Sure they could be right, but they could just as easily be wrong. Being concerned is one thing, however all of the saying the sky is not falling, but has already fallen posts are premature based on what we know.

Edit. I'm more concerned at this point of it being a self fulfilling prophecy compared to the actual state of the class.

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But... What I put in bold in your post is exactly why people are saying that WHM is dead.
The issues with the Lilies system are so prominent that you don't even need to try it to know it's terrible. This is why we have a 130 long page thread two weeks before release. (Good job mods by the way.)

You have to realize that, even if the lilies proc was at 100% on Cure and Cure II, it'd be way better, but still sub-par compared to the AST healing output and group utility (cards).
It's not about some tooltips being slightly wrong or a few numbers being off... It's the complete mechanic which is wonky as heck.

In short, with the current info we have, WHM will be the weakest job in FFXIV 4.0. Not only within the healer role, but out of all jobs.
It's not a case of "it may change", it's a case of "it must change!".

geeze i know it was needed but now you can't find anything

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Originally Posted by Feidam

No one said the concerns were not justified. There is a major difference between concerns and screaming a class is dead. Sadly unless you have all the tool you don't truly know, but if you are struggling with content then start speaking up. If you have to have a time frame. However, prior to ever laying your hands on the class the omfg you killed class my I quit reactions are just childish. Not saying you specifically did this, but if you've read all my posts that's what I'm talking about. Guessing you have not based on your questioning.

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We have 10 fewer skills than other healers also (including cards and fairy abilities). We are not dead but we need some love.

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Originally Posted by Niroken

Maybe we should get this out of the way first then, exactly what is the official amount of time should we have with the new changes before voicing our concerns?

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And how much time to actually effect a change (during which period they typical MMO will correlate our silence to consent or outright praise) should we sacrifice in favor of propriety?

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Originally Posted by Feidam

There is a major difference between concerns and screaming a class is dead.

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In this game, or at least community, the difference between a job being concerning and dead falls within some 5% effective throughput.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

No one said the concerns were not justified. There is a major difference between concerns and screaming a class is dead. Sadly unless you have all the tool you don't truly know, but if you are struggling with content then start speaking up. If you have to have a time frame. However, prior to ever laying your hands on the class the omfg you killed class my I quit reactions are just childish. Not saying you specifically did this, but if you've read all my posts that's what I'm talking about. Guessing you have not based on your questioning.

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it's not mature to act like you're above it all and to adopt a 'wait and see' approach.

As many people seem to have told you, the problems with the skills we have seen is that they incentivize sub-optimal play and they do not synergize with the existing WHM toolset (Regen, Medica I, Medica II, Asylum, Tetragrammaton, Assize and Cure III). Instead they obviously introduce a great deal of confusion into the job because it is not clear what you should be trying to do, heal MP efficiently or fish for procs on your new skills.

The fundamental problem is that you cannot do both of these things using the skills as they have been presented to us.

This is totally ignoring the actual numbers tied to any of this, it's the actual skills proccing off one another. It's like if a melee class got a 1-2-3 combo where the 2 skill didn't proc the 3. You wouldn't be going, wait until the game comes out to see if that's true. You'd be writing on the forum informing the devs that there's been a mistake.

Greetings,

As some of you may have noticed, we have consolidated the white mage feedback threads into one location, so we can keep track and collect valuable information to relay to the development team.

We appreciate your understanding, and please continue to share your feedback on this thread.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Greetings,

As some of you may have noticed, we have consolidated the white mage feedback threads into one location, so we can keep track and collect valuable information to relay to the development team.

We appreciate your understanding, and please continue to share your feedback on this thread.

Thank you.

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Any chance that you guys may be able to develop a system for sub-threads on these forums?

It seems like it'd only be harder to track useful information when forcing a collision between 5 different threads...

First thank you for the information regarding the new job system, there is a lot of positive feedback that makes it so that we're very excited about the expansion.

With a closer look to the synergy between the healers and the tanks we would appreciate if you addressed one issue however.

There is a lot of concern over job roles and identities, and the lost skills that became cross role as a result of that. Would it be possible to perhaps address the loss of skills primarily for White Mage?

I see a lot of issues with the skill count just from the standpoint of 26 skills for white mage, and 29 skills overall for Scholar and Astrologian. Wouldn't the best issue be to expand the number of cross class skills for White Mage and Paladin?

If you could for example given them 7 skills instead of the standard 5, it would give them more functionality and also address the loss of abilities they used to have. I hope that you can pass this information on to the Stormblood development team as I feel it is a prudent solution to a problem which would help to address the concern the community is currently having with both of the jobs.

The disparity gets even worse when you realize that those counts are as favorable to WHM as possible, just counting the native hotbar abilities.

SCH has an additional 7 abilities (Embrace, Fey Covenant, Fey Illumination, Whispering Dawn, Silent Dusk, Fey Caress, Fey Wind) from their pets. And if you want to be pedantic, another 8 on top of that (the pet placement/stance actions: Away, Heel, Place, Stay, Guard, Steady, Sic, Obey). Though only about two of the latter see any use in combat (Place and Heel).

AST has an additional 9 abilities from Cards. The six regular Draw options (Bole, Balance, Arrow, Spear, Spire, Ewer) and the three Royal Road actions (Extend, Enhance, Expand) along with possible the Lord/Lady actions. All of which are iconic-enough that even non-ASTs probably could tell you what they do.

WHM has two abilities that were widely considered candidates for pruning (Repose and Fluid Aura) and that aren't readily-viewable as "useful" with the content design to date (Fluid Aura was widely used as a damaging oGCD but that bit's gone).

I mention all those specific abilities because they give Scholar and Astrologian different ways to affect the outcome of the battle.

When you combine everything they can do to somehow affect the course of battle in Job-identity-reinforcing ways, it gets even more stark:

SCH has 39 abilities in practice (counting Embrace once, counting Heel and Place)
AST has 39 or 41 abilities depending on how you count them, just looking at things that affect the flow of combat
WHM has 26, arguably 24.

For an expansion that was supposed to be about reinforcing Job Identity and giving people options that made the Jobs feel unique and interesting to play, WHM really got the short end of the stick.

Thank you.

WHM lost six things to Cross-Role but can only have five of them back at a time. So they're losing one of the following effects at any one time, period:

Shroud of Saints (1-1 with Cross Role, the new version's better)
Protect (was innate, now Cross-Role)
Esuna (was innate, now Cross-Role)
Eye for an Eye (from old Cross-Class)
Divine Seal (now Largesse from Cross-Role)
Cleric Stance (specifically the 10% damage buff)

It also had outright deleted:

Virus (from old Cross-Class but mostly a wash, no Healer has an equivalent now)
Stoneskin (gone
Stoneskin II (gone)

And also freed up four hotbar slots on top of that:

Stone I (Becomes Stone IV)
Stone II (Becomes Stone IV)
Stone III (Becomes Stone IV)
Aero (becomes Aero II)

And they technically "lost" another ability:

Fluid Aura's no longer a damage-weaving oGCD

So it meets the simplification quota almost entirely from the Stone/Aero crunch. But they didn't do like Paladin and go back to fill in any gaps, and it lost more stuff to Cross-Role than it gains back from Cross-Role.

That's where the disparity in abilities come from.

Number of abilities doesn't determine play experience. But having one Job with far less abilities than another (when you count SCH non-Petbar pet actions or AST cards) does give you less levers to pull. Both for Job balance and for distinguishing Jobs from one another.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Greetings,

As some of you may have noticed, we have consolidated the white mage feedback threads into one location, so we can keep track and collect valuable information to relay to the development team.

We appreciate your understanding, and please continue to share your feedback on this thread.

Thank you.

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Great news that you're gathering our complaints to take to the dev team, really!

I really do hope they can gather what they need in one huge post though. There were a LOT of threads with a LOT of posts and a lot of different viewpoints and complaints about the system, their identity itself
-Their raid relevance
-the underwhelming performance of the lily system and how it gathers procs
-their healing potency being weaker than ASTs despite healing being their only strong point.
-Their loss of all our cross-skills and even unique abilities and the fact we weren't given anything at all to fill in the gaps.

Well, here's hoping this is really a place to gather information, and not a containment board lol...

well, it will most likely take awhile for all the new points to be brought over, so here's to hoping. overall...i hate to say it, but...WHM looks...like it's rewarding things that many of us that play WHM don't do any longer because you've given us huge/massive ogcds to take care of dmg.

I can't see how taking the core toolkit away from White Mage and giving it to the other classes, while we have to buy it back to be 'functional', is a good thing. i could go on, but really. it's all been said:

NO raid Relevance that we can see, The Lily System looks like it's rewarding MP draining Play, Astrologians being better than WHM (and almost better than SCH at some points it seems. and AST even get to sing "Anything you can do I can do better"), given new "skills" that are seemingly gated behind the Lily System...and a 3 Lily...Spear. Spear. we all remember that Spear is Royal Road fodder for the AST, right?

1. Lillies need to proc at a higher rate and need to generate a higher baseline Recast Reduction. 20% proc rate is way too low for 4% reduction in Recast time. It's pitiful. You'll barely ever be sitting on more than one lily between oGCD casts and 4% is at most 3.6 seconds off the recast of a skill, which is basically nothing.
2. Please don't make WHM scale off of crit. We're supposed to be the reliable healer. We don't want reasons to stack an RNG mechanic in addition to our RNG procs that you gave us. We want to be the premiere reliable healer who you know can pump out those heal bombs. This includes the Secret of the Lily II Assize/Asylum 5 sec Recast reduction on crit and the Confession crit stacks. We don't want RNG procs gated behind other RNG. Just make them normal procs at a higher rate. If you're going to keep it gated behind crit at least make it able to proc off Medica II/Regen tick crits.
3. Why does Plenary Indulgence consume all stacks of Confession when you use it when it's already gated behind two RNG procs PLUS they have a 30s duration on them so they can drop off. Thanks, we got a really bad version of Freecure as our level 60 skill gated behind RNG.


Solutions
These aren't new but I'll just restate them here for succinct-ness

Option 1: Lillies proc at a higher rate and there's a higher baseline recast reduction (Example: Lillies proc at 50% rate on Cure I/II cast and reduce recast time by 15/20/30%). Additionally, consuming a freecure proc will reduce the cooldown of Asylum/Assize by 5 seconds and everytime a Lily is gained from Cure I/II the target has a 50% chance of gaining a Confession Stack.

This makes gaining Lillies much more frequent and Confession is much easier as well though still gated behind two RNG things if that's really what SE is set on, though it removes the requirement of WHM stacking crit so we can be a more reliable healer.

Option 2: Lillies and Confession stacks proc off regen/medica II tics and at a 30% rate instead. Also make Asylum/Assize Recast Reduction proc off them too.

This makes WHM able to DPS and gather Lillies while they have Regens rolling on the party, making them the new kings of DPS as healers, constantly gaining Lillies for their oGCD recast reduction and getting Asylum/Assize down so they can have a lot more MP regain and getting so much more freecasts of heals out.

Personally I think both need to happen so they can be fun to play. Balance be damned cuz have you SEEN those AST tooltips? WHM needs to become a healbombing DPS king to be as fun as AST and making Lillies/Confessions a high-proc non-crit thing that can constantly be rolling while you DPS the hell out of stuff would be a great way to make them feel fun and engaging. I just hope it doesn't take as long as it took AST to reach that point.

I still want to see a non-RNG method for generating Lily's, like 100% chance on Assize or Tetra or another long cooldown.

WHM FEEDBACK:

In my opinion, it would be worthwhile examining how very similar healing mechanics play out in other MMOs to see what works and why what we have is not a good variation of said mechanics. I don't raid on WHM but please hear me out.

The lily and confession mechanic sounds similar to healers in SWTOR (not the main mage type healer which is a Jedi though, rather the more dancer-esque equivalent healer being the Smuggler). I am sure it is also similar to a type of healer in WoW but I've never played WoW. In SWTOR I mained a healer-smuggler from the end of 1.0 to release of 2.0 and dabbled back here and there and always suggested the mechanic be brought over to FF14 so blame me lol.


However, the mechanics operates in a very much different way over there:

1. The lillies occur through not criticals or the standard cure type heal, but through ticks of HoTs. You actually flooding in their equivalent of lillies because you can stack the main HoT twice on each party member, and there is another mini HoT which also gave procs. You would have so many stacks of lillies you actually cannot keep up with using them! The benefit of this is that because it always procs and you sit on stacks, the randomness is completely gone. Healers can therefore plan and predict and not play their job based on RNG which is a very dangerous thing when a healer is supposed to be the safety net for the party.

My suggestion therefore would be

1. Either make lillies have a chance to proc from all heals, or from critcs of all heals whether direct heals or ticks of HoTs. This will boost lily procs and erase RNG.

On the issue of raid utility:

1. We also need a raid utility. Again from SWTOR, their smuggler-healer gets an arsenal of utility abilities, albeit some are solo but they are are of better help than what we have presently. Abilities such as reducing AoE damage, while situational, could be of help (note: FF11 WHMs had this in Barspells). Abilities such as bubbles that restore HP when they fade out. Abilities such as HoTs or Cures that also add a short lived damage reduction percentage (point of note: FF11 WHM's also has this in Afflatus Solace)

As an aside on Role Skills:

1. The equivalent of Rescue in SWTOR granted the target party member added defences or reduced damage dealt to them or lowered their enmity, whereas FF14's Rescue does not.

Regarding how lillies are expended

1. Divine Benison is a new ability that grants a sheild, but uses up all the lillies. There seems to be a disconnect however. It is a lily dump, but we will never see it because lillies will be gone when Asylum, Assize and Tetragrammaton are used (they are all lily dumps) (and currently I use those abilities like a standard rotation). Therefore, we have too many lily dumps but not enough ways to obtain lillies in the first place! This is the key problem with the lily mechanic currently. This is the effect is causes. It really does mean some players will probably never see Divine Benison! Should lillies be more plentiful, then all the lily dump spells can benefit.
   
2. As an aside, Divine Benison should be on a shorter recast, and scale with the number of lillies it uses. If it could be used more regularly, you could then juggle between Benison and Indulgence for a sheild and a heal respectively. Thats really what the faster lily mechanic in SWTOR does, stacks come so fast you juggle abilities, not spam one endlessly trying to build up stacks.

Regarding lillies and offensive spells

1. Such an easy oversight. Why can't lillies be used with Aero, Stone or Fluid Aura? Full lily gauge should let us use the next tier or even forbidden magic! I was so excited and all I got was Stone 4 :(

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Originally Posted by Altanas

1. We also need a raid utility. Again from SWTOR, their smuggler-healer gets an arsenal of utility abilities, albeit some are solo but they are are of better help than what we have presently. Abilities such as reducing AoE damage, while situational, could be of help (note: FF11 WHMs had this in Barspells). Abilities such as bubbles that restore HP when they fade out. Abilities such as HoTs or Cures that also add a short lived damage reduction percentage (point of note: FF11 WHM's also has this in Afflatus Solace)

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Though I wouldn't expect SE to ever do this... if, instead of sticking core WHM skills in there with a few nerfs... if SE had put Balance and Chain Stratagem in cross role, that would have done far more to balance the healers than anything we've seen so far...

State and Functionality in Stromblood

Every Healer has lost and gained during the Reworks, some more or less than the others.

The most significant and questionable changes were made to Whitemage in the upcoming expansion. This Job was practically harvested for cross role skills, which makes it look like WHM can take none of the new crossroles because all he can do is get his lost skills back.

Whitemages greatest strength in Stormblood are his MP and his MP regeneration capabilities. During 2.0 and 3.0, a 100% healing/damage uptime as Whitemage was barely possible because of the weak mp regeneration capabilities of this Job. We had shroud of saints with a 15 second duration (and 2 min CD.) and assize on a 90 second cooldown.

Now we have a crossed Version of SoS, which has the same regeneration potency, but gets us 3 bonus Ticks more. Assizes cooldown has been reduced to 60 seconds, which makes it equal to Aetherflow. And the last, and best MP cooldown WHM gets, is thin Air. Reducing the MP cost of all spells to 0 for 12 seconds can save a lot of MP during a cure 3 or holy spam phase. And during the 12 seconds you still get 3 to 4 MP ticks, which is probably enough for 2 Stone IVs. So MP wont be an issue anymore in SB. With that much MP, we can fuel a very efficient and simultaneously aggressive playstyle involving a lot of dps contribution in the form of Holy bombs while we cast cheap Regens on the tank.

And then we get System changes. Confession Stacks and Healing lilys! These require you to cast Cure 1 and 2 directly on your Party, so you can get cooldown reduction on your 60 sec. CDs and More healing from our lv 70 ability. Wait. Something is off here. Didn’t I just say that our Awesome MP pool allows us to Spam Holy and stuff? Or cure3?
So the problem with WHM is not that rng is envolved in this system, its that the Whitemage doesn’t even synergize with itself if you aim for an efficient playstyle.

Given the requirements to stack lilys, the job of WHM is to stand and wait until someone takes damage, and then heal them using one of our basic heal spells. Using a characteristic Regen Spell doesn’t contribute to this system at all.
Given his new system, every WHM has the choice to either give up and adapt to the new given playstyle, or plain ignore it and make use of the new Flexibility in MP management.

Ideas for solutions

Secrets of the Lily I:
25% Chance on each Cure I or II cast to obtain a lily
Obtain a Lily every time a Regen ticks critically
Rest of the trait unchanged

This change should allow the Whitemage to build up lilys more reliably while no longer forcing him to spam cure 1 or 2 to make use of his new system

Replacement for the lv 40 Job skill: Enduring Regeneration (trait)
Casting Cure on a target increases the remaining duration of Regen on that target by 2 second
Casting Cure II on a target increases the remaining duration of Regen on that Target by 3 seconds

This trait adds more flow to generating healing lilys and gives the WHM more time to help with dps (and replaces the Divine Seal we lost, RiP our lord and savior)

Replacement for SotL II: Secrets of the Rose I (trait)
Everytime one of your Wind dots ticks critically on a target, you obtain a Wind rose (up to 3)
You can only obtain one wind Rose every 5 sceonds
On 3 wind roses, you can cast Wind Petal, a ogcd 200 Pot. Skill.

Instead of flat reducing the cast time of assize to spam it, weaving in damage spells (at least Dots) into your rotation should be rewarded. This trait would also add to the WHM philosophy. The WHM doesnt increases the partys Damage, he brings the damage himself.
On the Job UI, this trait would be a mirrored Version of the current UI added to the lilys, but with green flowers. (Lack of Photoshop/Paint skills doesnt allow visual demonstration)

Alone these 3 tweaks would fix WHM to a level where he can really compete with AST and SCH and make him a lot more flexible in Dungeon and Raid

I know this would force WHM to stack crit, but these trait could also be rewritten to math a more general Idea

Additional thoughts and ideas:

Plenary indulgence
When Plenary Indulgence hits a Target without a confession stack, that target gains a confession stack. When Assize is casted, every target hit has a 50% chance to gain a confession stack

Since PI is pretty much nothing else than an additional tetra on the tank available every 15 seconds, this little change would also include a bit of tactics in the WHM gameplay. (Even though this change could replace medica if I messed up here, that’s why its under additional stuff)

A Trait called „Tears of the Amdapori“
Everytime one type of your flowers reaches 3 Stacks, you obtain one (of five) petals of the Lunar Tear
When the Lunar Tear is complete, you can use either decay of the Amdapori or Mercy of the Amdapori.
When the lunar tear blooms, your potencies are increased by 5%. The lunar tear fades after 15 seconds.

Decay of the Amdapori
Increases the targets damage taken by 5% for 10 seconds (2min CD)

Mercy of the Amdapori
The next time the targeted ally would die, he is revived with 50% HP and MP. The target still loses its enmity, but doesnt gain a Weakness stack.
This Effect lasts 10 seconds with a 30 second cooldown.

These 4 Ideas would fit if the Goal would be to bring more utility to WHM. The basic idea would be that the WHM doesnt use all of his lunar tears, but combines them with Cleric to generate damage spikes on his own. All 2 mins, he adds a bit to boss damage, and is also able to save Party members from being weakened.
The UI for this trait would be located on top of the WHM Job UI.
And yes, the Lunar Tear was straight up stolen from NieR Automata.

Just my 2 Gil to this topic. We'll see what Square will do to save the Whitemage. Sorry for the long Post ^^'

Feedback:

Right now, Cures are generally the last spells an experienced WHM uses for healing. I know I use Regen, Asylum, Tetragrammation and Medica (II) more often. You are trying to make WHM more powerful by making them spam skills (especially since it's RNG) they probably won't be using as much in the first place. This does not make WHM fun for anyone who takes the role seriously. For example, I generally go through entire Expert Roulettes only casting Cure 2-3 times. The Lily system is worthless to me in that content.

At least let Regen proc the Lillies. Or even Medica II at an extremely decreased rate (~2% per tick?).

For me it is much less about the use of cross-class skills and more that you're requiring me use spells that I don't use often in the first place, which is especially irritating because not using them does not hinder my healing capabilities in most content.

In its current state I will just hide this Lily UI and play WHM as I did in 3.0, because it's not worth it for me to wait for my Assize CD just in case I possibly get a Lily proc.

I really hope that SE is listening to the community's feedback regarding our unhappiness with WHM. No use making an iconic FF job that wont be fun to play.

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Originally Posted by Bill_Murray

I really hope that SE is listening to the community's feedback regarding our unhappiness with WHM. No use making an iconic FF job that wont be fun to play.

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As Zhexos's post shows, they're at least reading. Now actually acting on that, in a timeframe that isn't a half year or longer... that's where I'm worrying.

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Originally Posted by Bill_Murray

I really hope that SE is listening to the community's feedback regarding our unhappiness with WHM. No use making an iconic FF job that wont be fun to play.

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That depends heavily on how the JP side of the board feels.

Edit: And from what I can tell, they don't have many issue with it.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

[b]snip

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I know ppl like all these big numbers.... but both option 1 and option 2 would make WHM on lilies and confession and recast reductions be all but absolutely guaranteed which leaves no RNG element in this system, which is clearly the direction SE wants to go with WHM gauge system.:mad:

Let's just run a few scenarios so you get the idea of how NON-RNG it would become with both options.

Option 1: 50% procs on confession and 50% procs on lilies and the 15,20,30% reduction on cds...

lets say in the spam of 30 sec you cast just 3 cures. That's a total of 3*gcd(assume a gcd of 2.4s)= 7.2 sec of instant healing gcds. What is the chances that you'll proc a lily? and what are the chances you'll proc a confession? (assume each proc is independent of each other; meaning if one happens it doesn't preclude the other from also happening)
CHANCE 1&2 : 87.5% that each proc would occur at least 1 from just 3 measly cures ....you basically just guaranteed proc at the rates you suggested! which would result in a 400 potency free ogcd & a 15%!!! reduction on your next Assize, Asylum, Divine Ben, or Tetragram (so 9- 13.5 sec reductions on your 60-90sec recast timers)....

Mind you that was just 7.2 sec of curing...... 3 GCDs.... Let's be a bit more realistic. In progression raid over a span of 60 sec without overhealing you could easily be required to cast 7 cure I/IIs in that 60 sec between both healers; lets for the sake of argument allow all these cures belong to the one whm. So still considering option 1 proc rates and reductions, let's figure out the likelihood of getting at least 3 lilies over a span of 60 sec at the cost of 7 gcds. And likewise the possibility of getting at least 3 confessions in the same time frame.

CHANCE 3&4: 77.3% chance that you'll get at least 3 lilies that results in 30% reduction to your next cd( 18-27 sec reduction of your 60-90sec recast).....77.3% chance that you'll get at least 3 confessions for a free 600 potency ogcd.....

At those rates you might as well scrap the whole lily RNG system and reduce all the cd by a flat rate which would be completely opposite of the RNG system they want WHM to be locked behind.

Option 2: HoTs proc at 30% rate....

Lulz.....let me just tell you now that Option 2 is even moooooooooooooore broken than option 1...... just in 30 sec of casting 1 medica II ......and just 1 regen (2 GCDs)..... you have a virutally 100% chance of getting 3 lilies and a 97% chances that everyone will have at least 1 confession stack...

30 sec....??? Where is the range in this system that you'll be using for a 8-10min fight??!

A better idea is for them to implement a system liken to our crafting system which is locked behind RNG however it rewards skilled crafters more so than the avg crafter. SE needs to find the sweet spot that places some control in proficient WHM hands yet still has a RNG aspect to it so it feels rewarding when you're optimizing your WHM you are SOMETIMES decently rewarded. While at the same time throw the avg WHM a sweet lil bone every now and then.

I sincerely hope SE takes note of this. White Mage REALLY needs more love at this point. There's no doubt about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Greetings,

As some of you may have noticed, we have consolidated the white mage feedback threads into one location, so we can keep track and collect valuable information to relay to the development team.

We appreciate your understanding, and please continue to share your feedback on this thread.

Thank you.

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Thanks for listening to us! We hope that our feedback will persuade the devs to reexamine WHM and make some needed improvements. Thank you!

I know it's already said, but I just wanted to just stress the fact that the lily system is not only extremely gated by RNG, but it's tied way too heavily on such an extremely small portion of our kit.
Cure and Cure II is hardly used with such strong OGCDs and regens, so why tie everything to such underused spells? Lilies, or at the very least confessions, should have chances to stack with uses of regens, AOE heals, and even DPS spells like Holy, Stone IV and Aero III.

20% is also way too low of a proc chance. If WHM is to function as a pure healer, the one thing they absolutely NEED immediate access to is their healing spells. If you feel the need to absolutely tie is down with RNG, at least give us chances to increase that chance, or even guarantee it.
For instance, a CRIT should at least be a guaranteed confession or a guaranteed CD reduction, not a CHANCE at a CF reduction.

Ugh, the whining is ridiculous. The numbers could be adjusted, but WHM is far from being "literally unplayable" or "you can't do cutting edge content" with. All I see is that people want the same abilities on every healer, every healer should have a spammable shield, every healer should have a party damage boost...it's just boring.

Note: I do think Balance needs a small nerf.

The white mage mechanics are terrible in every way and Ast heals are now more powerful than white mage and scholar ones for less mana.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Feedback:

Right now, Cures are generally the last spells an experienced WHM is going to use for healing...

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That isn't at all true.... What you should have said was: WELL GEARED HEALERS & TANKS combo, likely in end game gear, and possibly with echo, can more reliably depend solely on regen and ogcds to maintain long auto attack sequences with the occasional cures to pick up the slack.

Meanwhile during progression ilv gear it is nearly impossible, even this extremely dumb down content known as Creator savage, to rely on regens and ogcds alone for the good part of 60 sec, let alone a 8-10min fight....

Let's skip faust and just do a9s boss....his auto attacks hits for 10k every 3 secs and every 6-9 sec he hits with an additional auto attack. So at progression gear there isn't enough utilities in game to consistently and only rely on regens and ogcds for minute after minute after minute of damage sequences-- not even to include addressing the tankbusters.

To help get a more realistic look at how many instant healing cure-like gcds are used in a minute: go to youtube and pull up any world first/second/third/fourth....etc to gain a prospective on how often in a minutes time progression geared statics that pride themselves in utility efficiency, spam cure-like gcds in serious raid content.

If SE will continue to require the same level of rigor in the new content as it is in this content (LULZ) or past content (ok? I'm listening...), those cure spams would serve as the baseline for what a proc rate our lilies and confessions should be based on!

Here is a prefect example for a highly revered raid team "Elysium of Gilgamesh", World first in mostly progression gear, from a WHM POV, however on a raid tier a step harder than current Creator savage. No need to watch the whole video to just watch from 2:00 up to 3:20 and count the number of cures he, the WHM had to spam in that time frame dealin with sequences of AUTO attacks! (he cast between 7-9... I'd have to rewatch for exact numbers)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HCoEImNWL0&t=189s

The point is sequences like these are extremely common in progression serious raid content which will require some dedicated cure spams in a short window of time. That avg spam should be considered when SE adjust their RNG lil gauge procs, crit procs, confession procs, free cures, etc!



You guys are so spoiled with the simplicity of Creator savage that you're now begging SE to Tune the JoB utilties to be MOST rewarding once you've already completed the progression phase and moved into the Speed clears/Farming phases. The only reason the last tier had such a long speed clear/ farming phase is b/c it was made sooo EZ by comparison to the last two tiers beforehand. After you're at max gear....which is what I stipulated to begin with, you no longer need as many utilities and cure-like gcd spamming!! Once you got the gear you will now transition to the optimal compositions that will increase overall raid dps and will require stronger attention to detail and even less forgiven execution times!

WHM predominantly has been design as an easy to grasp healer that is highly reliable as you progress and transition into the speed clear/farm phase of the game. Requiring a Job that is extremely easy to handle and forgiving by comparison to AST and SCH to be JUST as rewarding as the higher APM required, more detailed oriented utility based jobs isn't at all fair.....

Be honest.. as much noise as some of you are making you will most likely stay WHM even beyond progression b/c a lot of you either can't manage the high APM of AST/SCH efficiently or all together find it too cumbersome.... you can't have the easiest healing class and want it to also be the best healing class...... Let's put it in persecptive

a decent sch has to manage pet placement, soil placement, shadow flare placement, personal cd, pet cds, pet gcds, and finally personal gcds.........

A decent ast has to efficiently handle a RNG card system with now additional card utilities every 30 sec, one aoe placement, personal cds, and personal gcds

A good whm has to handle, one aoe placement, a simple set of personal cds, and an even simplier gcd sequence...

You want the WHM with its set of responsibilities to be as rewarding as the other two??? And to you that's fair???

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Ugh, the whining is ridiculous. The numbers could be adjusted, but WHM is far from being "literally unplayable" or "you can't do cutting edge content" with. All I see is that people want the same abilities on every healer, every healer should have a spammable shield, every healer should have a party damage boost...it's just boring.

Note: I do think Balance needs a small nerf.

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....Just read the thread for God's sake, you'll realize how wrong you are with everything you just said.
No one's asking for anything even CLOSE to that.

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Originally Posted by javid

That isn't at all true.... What you meant to say was is WELL GEARED HEALERS & TANKS combo, likely in end game gear, and possibly with echo, can more reliably depend solely on regen and ogcds to maintain long auto attack sequences with the occasional cures to pick up the slack.

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Let me try to explain what we mean by this because you pretty much get it here.

Cure/Cure II are some of the lowest priority/last resort spells to use. You might need to, but you don't want to. And the first 2 weeks of a raid release that lasts 6 months are... maybe not the best thing to go by.

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Originally Posted by dark494

That depends heavily on how the JP side of the board feels.

Edit: And from what I can tell, they don't have any issue with it.

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I'm just curious, because I cannot read the JP boards but why do you feel they don't have any issues? I've been linked to at least one post from earlier that was translated where a JP player voiced similar concerns as those on our side of the fence.

Not doubting, but I feel like SE responds more strongly to feedback from JP community so I'd like to know where they stand right now.

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Originally Posted by Yallaid

I'm just curious, because I cannot read the JP boards but why do you feel they don't have any issues? I've been linked to at least one post from earlier that was translated where a JP player voiced similar concerns as those on our side of the fence.

Not doubting, but I feel like SE responds more strongly to feedback from JP community so I'd like to know where they stand right now.

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They're still using a thread from 2015 complaining about the holy and stoneskin nerf in HW.

If I can risk a generalization... their culture tends to be a bit reserved, which also means they don't create a bunch of different threads like we do. That said, my perception from my limited understanding of the language is definitely that it's not really at 'outcry' levels. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

That said, if you take this post from the aforementioned thread for example:

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Originally Posted by ekiben

とりあえず4.0の白の新アクションや変更点などを見た総評として、ストンスキンの件を差し引いても、
白魔導士に関しては、下方修正や弱体はされてないと個人的には思いました(*-ω-)ﾝﾑ

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S/he is also saying that it feels like WHM has been weakened even more after reviewing the 4.0 actions/changes.

What about proposing the lilly mechanic to proc from maintaining regens? Like BLM's polyglot but with regens. Make it 100% gives a stack for single regens (the regens you usually put on tanks or dps who just got ressed) and a 25% or less chance to proc from maintaining the aoe regen (since that's 8 people with a regen the chances should be lower).
Or you could add lillies from healing someone from critical HP in a certain time window, ie tank gets tankbuster and drops to 10% or less HP and you benediction them. That'd grant you a lilly 100%.

With this two changes the lillies would be at least usable. Even if the "utility" they give is abysmal.

1: Everything about the Lilies is bad. They're random, they're slow to get, they're weak to use, they're uncontrollable. It needs a rethink.

2: Secret of the Lilies 2 is garbage. It's also random and slow to get and weak. Erase it. THAT should be when we get confessions, and confessions should DO something for the player they're on. Also they shouldn't be off of the same lame casts at the same low percentage as lilies.

3: Plenary Indulgence shouldn't consume confessions, instead it should extend their duration by a small amount. Otherwise, there's no way that confessions could be balanced in having an effect, and thus couldn't be fleshed out into being something actually interesting instead of a weird buff we have to watch for.

4: Give us back Divine Seal. It's ours. Other people can have Largesse, but Divine Seal has been the "yeah but WHM heals a lot" button since the beginning.

5: Honestly take a look at what you've done to Ast. The power that class has on the build we saw is obscene. It outclasses all others in the roles they were supposed to excel in, while still having the greatest buffing power.

Confession stack shouldn't be random.

It is used as a bomb heal.
But when you know astrologian can put his bomb heal, wait 10s and make it explode for 900 potency...

White Mage should get a way of granting confession stack on the party with no timer on it and make it explode whenever he wants (and the potency based on how many stack people have, with a maximum of 3stacks). This could be a 60s cooldown, just like Astrologian's skill.

Adding in my two cents, which have possibly been said by others as well. I won't focus on cross-role, as those are for every job and I think others have explained it as well as or better than I would have. I'll also try to focus more on the mechanics of it rather than numbers.

1. The lilies (as shown) main effect is to reduce the cooldown of certain abilities, with a maximum effect of 20% reduction . Most cooldowns aren't used as soon as they're available on healer - you save them for when you actually need the healing. This effectively negates any effect the lilies actually have.

2. The fact that Tetragrammaton, Assize, Divine Benison, and Asylum all remove all lilies makes our own skills compete with each other in the worst way.
For example, let's say I'm trying to spam Assize as often as possible. In order to still use my other abilities but not interfere with the cooldown reduction for Assize, I'd have to use ALL my cooldowns in rapid succession to prevent them from removing a precious lily for Assize in the next 60 seconds or so.

3. As a caveat to #2, using your abilities when you need them instead of spamming them all means they might only get 1, or maaaybe two, lilies each (being very optimistic here at media tour RNG rates). Due to scaling, you won't even notice the effect this has (as opposed to noticing you're holding the skill for 12 more seconds before use); this means that actually using your skills wisely means you get no benefit from the new system.

4. Divine Benison just feels like a really big nerf to Stoneskin. We used to have 18% shield to put on a friendly target whenever we wanted. Then it had a potency cut. Now it's halfway back to where it was under a new name (and free of mp cost) but we have to have a lily and we can only do it once every 60 seconds. It also does not scale with lilies, but removes them all. Considering the hurdles needed to cast it, the detriment it is to my other skills if I'm saving lilies, and the fact that the tanks can shield HP for other party members more reliably, I probably won't even put this skill on my hotbar.

5. On a positive note, Thin Air is amazing and we love you for it already. TY TY TY

6. Plenary Indulgence seems like a huge let-down as it was shown from the media tour. The main reason I think it fails as a useful skill is because it requires us to have ALREADY done the healing with Cure I and II. There just aren't too many scenarios when I can make use of randomly stacking confession on someone and healing them again with Plenary Indulgence in a 30-second timeframe. If the confession stacks were on the white mage instead of party members, there was another way besides Cure I and II to generate stacks, and/or the stacks lasted longer than 30 seconds, then it could be very useful. Heck, one amazing change would be to have the skill activate a 10-yalm aoe heal around those with confession stacks. But in its demonstrated iteration? Simply a more active Regen that I have to click every 15 seconds.

7. Having all the new changes lumped into Cure I and II also makes our own skills compete with each other:
---I can spam Cure I and II for minimal benefit, ooooor I can use my other skills in an effective, mp-efficient manner while ignoring the new system entirely.
---I can spam Cure I and II for minimal benefit, ooooor I can use some damage dealing skills to offset my lack of party DPS utility...while ignoring the new system entirely....and simultaneously not building confession stacks.
---I can spam Cure I and II hoping for a crit to give me some cooldown reduction from the new trait....or I can realize this happens so infrequently it doesn't have a tangible effect on my own throughput.
(I do recognize that spamming single target Cures is necessary sometimes, but it's definitely NOT the majority of my time in combat)

I completely understand some of the RNG numbers if everything is balanced around end-game raid content that requires cure spam in some cases....but for most content you've delivered so far it's just not needed. Having such low RNG percentages (or any RNG tied to our skills, really) in casual content is going to mean the majority of the playerbase won't really get to use the new skills or lily system that often. Add that to the fact that our base tooklit was stripped pretty heavily, and it feels like we're left with a much weaker version of our 3.0 selves.