The Strawman Fallacy
"You are against the cash shop because you expect to be handed all content for free."
The Ad Hominem Fallacy
"If you can't afford a few bucks to spend on a minion, you probably shouldn't be playing an MMO in the first place. Instead of being so cheap, why don't you go get a second job and stop wasting your life in a game."
The Black or White Fallacy
"Look, the subscription model just isn't viable anymore. It's either they install a cash shop, or the company goes bankrupt."
The "No true scotsman" Fallacy
"LOL @ quitting the game over cash shop. If this makes you quit then clearly you never liked this game in the first place and are not a true FF fan."
The Authority Fallacy
"Yoshi-P said the cash shop will be vanity-only! Yoshi-P said he will shut down the servers and kill this game before it ever goes Free-to-Play!!"
Cash shop confirmed
Printable View
-
10-23-2014, 01:18 PMFyrebrand
-
10-23-2014, 01:23 PMAnuheaLani
I'm going to use it! Why yes? To Keep game alive. All the updates you see, servers you play on, workers who keep game working smoothly, memory used and updates. You think all that is free and workers work free? Players always asking, requesting and wanting more content, adjustments, more space. And yet this comes out majority is disappointed and not satisfied with there decision. Someone needs to get paid and developing and updating a game needs funding. If you disagree, go play those free MMO and see how that goes for you: )
-
10-23-2014, 01:29 PMRiviereNow do the same but now for the people against the shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyrebrand
-
10-23-2014, 01:30 PMMorningstar1337Why do I get the feeling this is going to get derailed by a certain clip at the end of the sourceQuote:
Originally Posted by Fyrebrand
Anyway for neutrality's sake I made a thread about sugesstions of what the cash shop shouden't sell and limitations placed on it here -
10-23-2014, 01:33 PMseidaFree? I'm sorry, what do you think the monthly sub is for? That reasoning is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnuheaLani
-
10-23-2014, 01:36 PMVhailorYou know, I was debating how to emphasize Xairos' point about logical fallacies in a clever way, but this is just too perfect for me to pass up (plus it saves me the effort of having to be creative). Thanks, AnuheaLani.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnuheaLani
Edit / Addition:
This is a bit harder to do. There are certainly some examples of it, but most of the individuals opposed to the cash shop are supporting their positions with personal principles or feelings. By definition, such arguments cannot be logical fallacies - they're just statements of opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riviere
In short, generally speaking, people opposed aren't making an argument at all - they're voicing an opinion. People in support are, again, generally trying to argue that their opinions are wrong; this approach practically guarantees a logical fallacy will be committed somewhere along the line. -
10-23-2014, 01:50 PMRaddCubanPlease don't start playing that game. While I applaud that you encourage people to self educate on how to become better at argument and discussion, I don't recommend you give them the tools with which to throw this around:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xairos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy -
10-23-2014, 01:52 PMDCILuther
My only concern about the cash shop is that I hope the developers don't shift their focus on cash shop items/vanity instead of game content. They should focus on making quality game content. I can't find the link or the interview with Yoshi-P where he says something along the line of how F2P and P2P developers make content in their respective games. He implies that F2P "developers" focus more on cash shop items rather than in-game content, whereas other developers (P2P/subscription based) focus on developing actual game content.
-
10-23-2014, 02:41 PMtocsin
Wow, this thread has really derailed in the past 24 hours!
When did we start talking psychology?
I suppose that I should be glad people moved on from spewing nonsense and misinformation about cash shop ruining the game, but darn it, that was my nightly entertainment!
edit- and before people start jumping on me for it, im just going to say that if I get my entertainment from the night from watching people vomit all over their keyboards over minor changes to their way of life, that's my own right. it is pretty funny to watch, like car crash videos. -
10-23-2014, 03:03 PMDwillQuote:
Originally Posted by Fyrebrand
I can play this game too, except to a whole new level:
The Strawman Fallacy
"If you can't afford to farm mounts and minions for hours, then video games are clearly not for you and you should check your hobby."
The Ad Hominem Fallacy
"You are for the cash shop because you use your mom's wallet."
The Black or White Fallacy
"Square Enix has enough money so they don't need a cash shop."
The "No true scotsman" Fallacy
"Anyone who like this game would not support a cash shop."
The Authority Fallacy
"Yoshi-P said that free to play was an effective method of subscription therefore this game is going F2P with the cash shop. " -
10-23-2014, 03:05 PMRiviereIt's only hard because you prefer to look the other way. We have people saying that they are removing content from the game to put in the cash shop and that it's gonna be pay to win and free to play soon enough. We have people saying that cash shop introduced in other games has driven them to failure and forced them to go F2P. We have people saying that the ones that are ok with the shop are retarded kids using their mom's wallets. We have people saying that the ones that are ok with the shop are stupid because they want to pay money for something that should be free and are the cause of the current state in the game industry. We have people saying that because something bad happened to another game with a cash shop, it's gonna happen here as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vhailor
Yesterday afternoon, I saw someone shouting in Ul'dah, saying that it had been announced that the game was going F2P because of the cash shop.
Let's not be hypocrites and pretend that the side that we favor is the one acting completely rational without exaggerating, making up or twisting things that have been said.
^Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwill
This guy knows what I'm talking about. -
10-23-2014, 03:21 PMMysteranLast I checked, the subscription model was such that the company receives regular, recurring fees from the consumer so that they can do exactly what you say we are asking them to do for free. Please tell me who to contact to receive a refund of all money spent on FFXIV, since apparently they have been doing it for free all this time and I missed the memo. After all, I'm just asking that they continue to do what they have been doing so far when it comes to game updates and server maintenance.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnuheaLani
Edited to add: Just wanted to clarify. I'm bundling the "workers who keep game working smoothly" under the game updates and server maintenance bit. Their pay is a cost of doing both of those. -
10-23-2014, 03:36 PMTeryaani"Hateful". I disagree with you and say why and I'm hateful? Whatevs. Or were you calling the forum itself hateful? If so, I agree. That post limit thing is monstrous.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaddCuban
On the upside, I can post at least once! Sorry about having to post in the old post. Thanks for putting up with referring back to the old post.
I'm mixed on the seasonal stuff in that I get why people are upset that it's going from a vendor during the event to the cash shop but I also get that it was probably a temporary thing last year <shrug>. It's the part of the cash shop that leaves me a bit...meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaddCuban
You're talking about the merch, one sec and I'll get there. Can we agree that the CE is equivalent? The only thing the collectors edition adds to the game are vanity. It's global, but it's extra vanity content for extra cost over a standard sub. A minion or mount from the cash shop is extra vanity for extra cost over the standard sub. It's not required to play, it's purely extra, it's vanity, and it's a one-time extra cost over a sub.Quote:
I just don't think that two things that have very different purposes for existing should be conflated. Are you telling me that if something is up for purchase, but people purchase it for a different reason than was intended when it was made available for purchase that becomes the reason it was made available for said purchase?
For the merch, as I mentioned before, I think <opinion here> that enough people purchase these just for the in game item that it an equivalent. Sure some people genuinely want the CD or the book over the minion, but enough of us are after the in game item that it is equivalent from that point of view. If you are one of those people that wanted the art book and toss the code to your cat, then you won't see it this way, but I do. If you're one of those people then I will never convince you of this, and not knowing the true motives of the buyer I remain unconvinced that I'm wrong. Again, this is a gut feeling thing and nobody has any data one way or the other to make a case for it.
<not directed at you RaddCuban - post conservation happening>
I'm not getting why all the dung throwing over this at all. Can the cash store go all pear-shaped? Possibly. Do we really know if it will? No. Right now it's just conjecture from everyone, me included. We only have a small amount of data that was shown at the live show to work off of.
The original question this thread posed - "how will development reconcile the cash shop with player demands for in-game vanity content?" (am I paraphrasing that right saeedaisspecial?) is one that SE absolutely needs to come to terms with and when in doubt, lean toward making it in-game. You all may hate Blizzard being brought up, but up until recently they actually did this part right. -
10-23-2014, 03:38 PMMoqiLol some of the replies on this thread are wild. Gotta get me a copy of this free version of ffxiv people think I should be grateful for.Quote:
Originally Posted by seida
-
10-23-2014, 03:43 PMDaweism
Do you get banned for RMT if you buy from the cash shop?
-
10-23-2014, 03:49 PMNozomiKei
At AnuheaLani: No we don't think it's free, that's one of the reasons why we're okay with paying $8-$15+ every month! Your argument has already been discussed extensively. You would know this if you had read earlier posts in this thread.
Also, when will this stupid thing change my picture back to my current outfit?! This is just my super seduction suit, not my everyday slutty businessman outfit. -
10-23-2014, 08:06 PMDarkshade
Similar thread on the JP forum for those interested.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...1%84%E3%81%A6?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revanshe
-
10-23-2014, 08:22 PMMiriliI'm fairly certain you can't even post here without an active subscription.Quote:
Originally Posted by LalaRu
Soooo... -
10-23-2014, 08:31 PMMiya_CarbuncleI can vouch for this as I have only recently started playing again and I couldn't post until after I re-subscribed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirili
-
10-23-2014, 08:38 PMMiriliToo funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miya_Carbuncle
Wei? WeiShan? Are you still here? I have some questions. -
10-23-2014, 08:48 PMwhoopeeragonWell, at least from that particular quote, they're acting mature about it and not assuming doom and gloom weather. They actually hope for the best, not the worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkshade
-
10-23-2014, 08:52 PMTupsi(Nor continually attacking people either based on username or for stating the same sentiment in a different manner.)Quote:
Originally Posted by whoopeeragon
-
10-23-2014, 09:23 PMSho86
-
10-23-2014, 09:23 PMWeiShanhttp://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/...ps92cb13e2.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirili
I don't know why I can still post,
I never paid sub for this account,this is my alt account
(i purchased two accounts because I love XIV1.x,not because 2.0 is great)
You guys thought I was lying?cmon, that's stupid.
and I hate & will never play a cash shop game -
10-23-2014, 09:33 PMMagisYou don't need an active sub to post.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeiShan
-
10-23-2014, 09:40 PMTupsiYou do, it'll eventually force you to log out, but if you've HAD one before it will let you post for awhile before you get a notice saying no active sub blah blah like on the FFXI forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
-
10-23-2014, 09:44 PMdrivendawn
LOL, Troll harder budddy.
-
10-23-2014, 10:09 PMMagisAh, so basically when the cookie expires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
Who said FFXI ruined FF? It was it's own thing, and most said it should have been just FF: Online. The X-2 thing yes, most said it was a dumb fanservice game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
-
10-23-2014, 10:14 PMTupsiBasically when people were saying that XI shouldn't have been numbered since it was kinda like the hate Mystic Quest got for not being "Final Fantasy", but in XI's case it being an MMO entry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
-
10-23-2014, 10:17 PMKyoraki
Sad that it's come to this. Yoshi comes in the save the day after Sqaure Enix fucked up with 1.0, and now the game is a success they're going to start nickel and diming us.
We were idiots for thinking that Sqaure Enix had learned their lessons after nearly bankrupting themselves with stuff like this. Just watch as this great game slowly turns into All The Bravest 2.0. -
10-23-2014, 10:29 PMMagisTo give him some credit... how much do you think this is upper management and how much is Yoshi? Upper management fucked v1.0 with forcing them to use XIII's engine and putting an unfinished game onto the market because "we gotta beat WoW: Cata's release" so I wouldn't be surprised if they are doing it again here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyoraki
-
10-23-2014, 10:30 PMNemhy
There are a few concerns that I have regarding this new system. Not going to campaign against this decision since I'm fairly certain this will not be just scrapped. However, there is something that can be added that I (and many of my peers) would appreciate and be more accepting of this system.
Stuff like the Sleipnir Mount (hell ANY future mounts, really), minions not yet in the game, cosmetic clothing should NOT BE CASH SHOP EXCLUSIVE. Either make them rare drops/recipes in the game, or utilize the Veteran Rewards! As it stands, majority of the vet rewards past the Behemoth mount are pretty underwhelming! It's a great way to reward long time subscribers who may not have the disposable income to shell out cash in bursts. Would also fit the theme of the Vet rewards being cosmetic/visually nice goodies!
Now here is where things become mostly hypothetical! If you are not interested in such talk, then you don't need to read anything else. Lets say the Cash Shop comes out premium looking gear/mounts (they have more particle effect ect). Close to the same, or maybe even a bit better visually than something released via crating recipe or rare drop. Myself (and a few others I'm sure) find it very demotivating/disheartening to invest gil, (whether it be melds to get rare materials or what) and time spent grinding into items that can be easily one-upped by someone with a deeper IRL wallet. Yes, it's purely cosmetic items but there's no way I feel alone in thinking this! Please don't go down this route ever please, terrible way of doing things ESPECIALLY FOR THE P2P GAME.
Going to end this with a very well said quote. Awareness of such a potential practice needs to be known by all players spending their hard earned money to play this game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial
-
10-23-2014, 10:32 PMStrejdaTomSir if this happened, I woudlnt say a single thing against cash shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemhy
-
10-23-2014, 10:33 PMElven
Man this upsets me why can't I buy high alagan gear and p2w is all goody in this game it's not like you're going to run to pvp with your new gear.
-
10-23-2014, 10:44 PMmyahele
These items should be in cash shop exclusive as to not compete with in game content. Can you imagine if sleipnier was awareded for odin XM and also purchasable via cash shop? Many people will just buy it. Making it so that there is no incentive.
Same with vanity gear. As it stands most require hard to get mats, thus costing upwards to 3mil gil or less. If the same vanity gear will only cost me less than $5 I'll take it and save my gil for other things. -
10-23-2014, 10:53 PMNemhyYes, because no one in the game likes working hard for anything. =/Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele
-
10-23-2014, 10:56 PMStrejdaTomSo you would rather not be able to get it ingame at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele
-
10-23-2014, 11:03 PMTupsiFunny enough, some arguments say Sleipnir should be in-game, yet you'd think by now, after a year, they would have added him to the Mantle loot list at the NPC if they had any initial intentions of adding it in-game. The fallacy many seem to partake in is that they figure no items will be obtainable in-game.Quote:
Originally Posted by StrejdaTom
Look back at 2.1-2.3 so far, most gear has been vanity as is, this way, they can actuall focus on adding more gear in-game that looks good and separate some of the ways you can obtain. What was the mantra of the FFXIV community?
"Give us options"
Isn't a cash shop an option whether you agree with it or not? Did you splurge on the Mog Station Fantasias and extra retainers? -
10-23-2014, 11:07 PMLord_ZlatanThis is actually a great point. I have shamelessly used cash shops for P2W services before. It was an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
I have also used cash shops for awesome looking vanity gear... its an option.
I really don't think that they will nickel and dime us for P2W services. However, having items in the store that are an option for players as an alternative for things in game doesn't hurt anyone in the long run. -
10-23-2014, 11:19 PMNemhyExcept the game's economy and every single DoH/DoL class. Why invest so much effort melding your gear to tip-top shape to make cool items, when it can just be obtained for like $3?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan