More Horizontal Progression please

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Not really Niche. That type of game-play is really popular in animes. ;)

They just think its "ONLY IN VIRTUAL REALITY." like SAO...

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What works on a TV show may not translate well into an actual game, especially one aiming at worldwide appeal.

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Its not Niche, because there has not been an MMO designed for that style of gameplay for... 11-13 years now?

Nothing really like it at the moment.

It can't be niche when there is nobody doing it.

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Do you know what niche means? It means only a specific audience favors that type of style.

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Honestly, that is a popular opinion. However, your wrong.

Statistics do point that you are correct, however the new generation of gamers in an MMO have never really been challenged by anything. They never had a challenged thrusted in their face. They never had a sense of fear when leaving their towns or dangers from the world.

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Making more time sinks does not make a game difficult, it just milks it more. Difficulty is actually making he fights hard and require your skill and ability to understand your job and mechanics, not how much time you can invest into it. By your logic, the worst of players can be the best if they bang their head on their keyboard enough.

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Make a game and treat it like a WORLD INSTEAD of a game.

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That is subjective thinking. What you consider immersion into a world can be different from someone else's.

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Your "Popular" game idea, has me logging in BORED doing NOTHING for HOURS because THERE IS NO CONTENT. We have DONE it all. NOTHING challenges me. NOTHING makes me AFRAID. Bosses don't scare me. EVERYTHING IS A CHORE. Yet this is.. fun?

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There is plenty for you to do. You just don't want to do them. The only valid complaint I have seen in this thread is that this game's only difficult content is Alex(Savage) and EX Primals(kind of). Most content can be face rolled except those. People have this "bored" mindset because there is no middle ground. They should of made Alex(Normal) on the difficulty of Final Coil and Alex(Savage) tuned up harder than it is currently right now. Without a good middle ground, there are complaints that there are only catering to each extreme end. The ones that want everything handed to them on a silver platter (Alex(Normal) basically) and people who want over the top punishing content (Alex(Savage)).

tl;dr Time =/= skill

Alexander and Alexander Savage are some of the most boring raids and encounters i've ever done. There is little fun in killing the same boss, in the same room over and over for virtually NO reward. Its a mindless grind. There is no fear challenge to it. Its a test you study, and if you get it right and everyone does the test well and you get lucky you win.

However, if you leave the zone your safe and nothing can happen to you or your character. You lose nothing if you leave during the fight. Its disconnected from the world.

Throwing your face and zerging a boss until you win is not fun. Its tedious.

They made it hard by adding nigh impossible DPS checks to the fight to artificially make it seem harder then it actually is. This way this "Very little content." which it is very little will survive until next patch.

Honestly, you know developers pigeonholed themselves in when they literally add a DPS check to every hard fight. Its pretty much an artificial timesink. Almost none of the bosses (1% maybe?) in EQ2 had an enrage timer, but well developed bosses instead.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Do you know what niche means? It means only a specific audience favors that type of style.
l

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I just figured that I'd let you know that everything is niche, given this definition.

In terms of how it's generally used in markets is "a specialized but profitable corner of the market."


So under your definition, everything is niche. Casual, hardcore, raiding, crafting, chatting etc etc.

Under the market definition, 'niche' is not a bad thing, as it's profitable.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

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We got pretty far off topic eh?

Anyway, some of this stuff is pretty good and could be implemented. However, MMO's need to attract more casual players than hardcore players to survive. You need a way to create enough content to make casual players feel at home then you need a smaller set of challenging content to keep them interested beyond the beginning. Now changing dungeon mechanics to include things like harder pulls would be cool, but only really affects the tank class. It's very difficult to make a dynamic that affects all the party members. Especially when roles are so defined in an MMO game.

Equivalating Dark Souls and GTA to a MMO is... like comparing apples and oranges. They have completely different gameplay types and endgame goals for the player. Plus a MMO game based on twitch response is a recipe for disaster. I would require even smaller instanced areas for the server to handle the load.

There's a specific reason why MMO content is decidedly simplistic or extremely difficult. It's to make the design to progression ratio easy to deal with. They either have to make it easy to make so that it can be pumped out en masse, or they take their time and make it so difficult that it takes months to be able to clear. It's a massive undertaking to create a new content and there needs to be a way to deal with the sheer amount of customers they need to deal with.

Additionally, EQ2 has been around since 2004. They've had time to fine tune a formula. FFXIV is still a relatively new MMO. They still need time to make mistakes and correct them.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

We got pretty far off topic eh?

Anyway, some of this stuff is pretty good and could be implemented. However, MMO's need to attract more casual players than hardcore players to survive. You need a way to create enough content to make casual players feel at home then you need a smaller set of challenging content to keep them interested beyond the beginning. Now changing dungeon mechanics to include things like harder pulls would be cool, but only really affects the tank class. It's very difficult to make a dynamic that affects all the party members. Especially when roles are so defined in an MMO game.

Equivalating Dark Souls and GTA to a MMO is... like comparing apples and oranges. They have completely different gameplay types and endgame goals for the player. Plus a MMO game based on twitch response is a recipe for disaster. I would require even smaller instanced areas for the server to handle the load.

There's a specific reason why MMO content is decidedly simplistic or extremely difficult. It's to make the design to progression ratio easy to deal with. They either have to make it easy to make so that it can be pumped out en masse, or they take their time and make it so difficult that it takes months to be able to clear. It's a massive undertaking to create a new content and there needs to be a way to deal with the sheer amount of customers they need to deal with.

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No, SWGEmu is still alive with 3000-4000 players. Supported by Donations. Even though its very old and buggy since they don't have all the tools its not dead. It was a very very niche MMO too, 300k subscribers before it was shut down.

Actually no, your wrong.

GTA/Dark Souls both have a lot of Elements SWG had.

SWG had cities you could build yourself and dynamic zones and being able to take over others cities and make your own content. SWG had no levels when it began which meant all content is endgame content.
SWG also had deep hard and challenging zones like Dark Souls does that made you pay a LOT of attention to things around you or you died.


YOU "can" make an MMO like it. Its POSSIBLE.

Sword Art Online for example, and Log Horizon are BOTH MMOs (not real ones!) but ones like this!


Developers are just not willing to take the risk to make a Sandbox game like that.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

YOU "can" make an MMO like it. Its POSSIBLE.

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Sure, but expecting it to be achieved in a MMO that is already coded is foolhardy. Alot of these things you guys are discussing would completely change the feel and focus of this game.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

GTA/Dark Souls both have a lot of Elements SWG had.

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I guess I'm missing your point here. SWG is old and failing, so no company in their right mind is gonna use this as a template for success. 3000-4000 players would be a pittance for even a small game company. Additionally, making any sort of twitch gameplay in a MMO does two things:
1. You need the server speed to deal with the pings. With over a million subscribers in XIV that would require a vast network.
2. You are limiting the type of gamer that will buy your product. There are a ton of players that love MMO style combat for its simplicity. Maybe they prefer it or they have a disability that hinders their ability to react quickly to a stimulus. MMO's give that type of gamer a clear and achievable goal.

FFXIV is a extremely casual game. It's meant to be that way. Why is it that everyone wants to change that so badly?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Developers are just not willing to take the risk to make a Sandbox game like that.

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No, because you have to be able to assure yourself a payday at the end of it. Why do you think we are seeing things like reboots of movies and all the superhero movies. They are cash cows that are guaranteed money. It's not about creativity or the human spirit flying around in a colorful rainbow. The gaming industry has to make money to stay active.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Under the market definition, 'niche' is not a bad thing, as it's profitable.

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Not everything niche is profitable enough to be done.
Ressources are needed to make something, even niche. If another project were to earn more if these ressources were allocated to it instead, it means a lost opportunity to increase the overall benefits.

In short terms, even if a niche product makes money, it often don't make it quick enough to justify the investment if the ressources needed to make it were more valuable somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Not everything niche is profitable enough to be done.
Ressources are needed to make something, even niche. If another project were to earn more if these ressources were allocated to it instead, it means a lost opportunity to increase the overall benefits.

In short terms, even if a niche product makes money, it often don't make it quick enough to justify the investment if the ressources needed to make it were more valuable somewhere else.

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That's true, but you need to elaborate on that point. Rather than referring to something as niche in an effort to disregard it.

I haven't followed this thread very closely, as I feel it sort of derailed a long time ago. That said, horizontal progression can be added in to the game without making the game less profitable than otherwise. IMO adding more horizontal progression could help keep retention higher.

This does not mean that I think they should add long grinds or rare drops etc etc. I just think that adding choice in your gear could add flavour to the game. I also think that they could use horizontal progression to keep previous content more relevant. Way too much of Heavensward has already been made obsolete. That's a lot of development time and costs for very little consumer use. There is a LOT of content in this game, but most of it is something that I'll never do again (or very rarely). Give me a reason to do them. To elaborate, don't make me go do Aurum Vale 40x over for a drop. Make me want a drop that can come from any ARR dungeon. Then I can queue for whatever I want and mix it up, instead of doing the _same_ dungeon over and over and over.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

Sure, but expecting it to be achieved in a MMO that is already coded is foolhardy. Alot of these things you guys are discussing would completely change the feel and focus of this game.

I'm not talking about this game. This game is set in stone.

I guess I'm missing your point here. SWG is old and failing, so no company in their right mind is gonna use this as a template for success. 3000-4000 players would be a pittance for even a small game company. Additionally, making any sort of twitch gameplay in a MMO does two things:
1. You need the server speed to deal with the pings. With over a million subscribers in XIV that would require a vast network.
2. You are limiting the type of gamer that will buy your product. There are a ton of players that love MMO style combat for its simplicity. Maybe they prefer it or they have a disability that hinders their ability to react quickly to a stimulus. MMO's give that type of gamer a clear and achievable goal.

SWG never "failed" it had a million subscribers at its peak and this was before WoW and MMOs were popular in general. Starwars in MMOs made it have a niche audience since it wasn't Fantasy it was Scifi. Scifi MMOs are NOT as popular as fantasy ones.

2000-4000 Players is only on the Emu's players playing. There are only 2000-4000 players playing a server in FFXIV right now. I am not talking about Subscribers.

FFXIV is a extremely casual game. It's meant to be that way. Why is it that everyone wants to change that so badly?

Not wanting to change it. That isn't part of the current discussion.



No, because you have to be able to assure yourself a payday at the end of it. Why do you think we are seeing things like reboots of movies and all the superhero movies. They are cash cows that are guaranteed money. It's not about creativity or the human spirit flying around in a colorful rainbow. The gaming industry has to make money to stay active.

Indeed, however making too much of the same thing means as soon as the next big thing comes out your game is deserted. Movies only profit like this because you already get your pay out of it.

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Corrected you there.

It seems like you have never played an MMO before 2005. Honestly, that is what I see.

I feel sorry for gamers these days. They will never experience true beauty.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Sandbox games are really (were) the only MMOs that can really offer that depth and longevity. Honestly people these days do not want to put time in their games, and why should they be stronger then someone who does?

I have 800+ hours clocked in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2.
I also have 700 hours clocked in RUST. (Survival Horror.)

What makes those games so good?

They don't feel like its tedious to grind and play the game. The grinding is actually engaging and fun. It challenges me.

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800+ hours into a game? #puke I couldn't imagine that. Put into perspective, granting an 8 hour sleep(lower spectrum bc you're not really exerting yourself) you have spent 2 months of your life playing this for...what? I have played FFXIV since launch and I have clocked 387 hours, over 3 years now. I wouldn't mind less tier gearing, but I don't have the time sink you seem to have, so I am glad this game is programmed the way it is. I should not be barred from doing Savage just bc I have a life and you seem to not have one.