SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

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12-17-2018, 09:18 AM
Auryan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon041065

He said the same with rdm. That he wasn't sure if they could make the "jack of all trades" traditional FF job fit within the trinity and they eventually did it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ue-Limited-Job

Yeah, they sure nailed RDM alright. Sarcasm aside, I really don't like what they did with RDM. I think it's the most boring of the three casters and had to lose too much to get here. And if that is how they planned on handling BLU, please...no.
12-17-2018, 09:24 AM
Dualgunner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auryan

Yeah, they sure nailed RDM alright. Sarcasm aside, I really don't like what they did with RDM. I think it's the most boring of the three casters and had to lose too much to get here. And if that is how they planned on handling BLU, please...no.

https://i.imgur.com/tC5uumk.png

IMO, RDM is a great job that is simplistic to pick up, with a good amount of nuance beneath the hood. Within FFXIV's world, where BLM is the elements of fire, thunder; and ice and WHM is the elements of water, earth, and air; RDM can use fire, thunder, earth, and air. Amidst all this, the casting of magic charges their sword to deal magical thrusts. It meets my fantasy of a spellblade, and is a jack of Black Magic, White Magic, and melee combat, but a master of none; it uses a combination of its three arts to grant it power on par with masters of any of the aforementioned elements.

That's the imagination I was hoping for with BLU; I don't care about Final Fantasy so much as I care about FFXIV. If I wanted FFV's BLU, I'd boot up FFV, as it were. If I wanted FFXI's BLU, I'd boot up FFXI.
12-17-2018, 09:29 AM
Blueyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auryan

Finally something we agree on. The limited job system isn't the way to solve the battle system problem. I think so too. However, I think this new system is the first step on them doing away with it. Can't start overhauling an entire game without seeing how people react to changes, now can you?

The thing is, SE hasn't given any indication that Blue Mage is intended to be their first step towards expansive changes to their existing battle system. It's been implied that Blue Mage and other Limited Jobs are meant to exist as a completely separate system with no plans for the two systems to ever interact with each other at the highest level.

If we want to see an expansive change to the existing system, we as fans will have to advocate for that. We should view Blue Mage as an opportunity for change; because if we can get SE to integrate Blue Mage into the existing system, if they don't want all their hard work to be for naught, it's going to force them to expand the limitations of what jobs can do. Blue Mage should be the job that raises the bar.
12-17-2018, 09:51 AM
jon041065

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueyes

The thing is, SE hasn't given any indication that Blue Mage is intended to be their first step towards expansive changes to their existing battle system. It's been implied that Blue Mage and other Limited Jobs are meant to exist as a completely separate system with no plans for the two systems to ever interact with each other at the highest level.

If we want to see an expansive change to the existing system, we as fans will have to advocate for that. We should view Blue Mage as an opportunity for change; because if we can get SE to integrate Blue Mage into the existing system, if they don't want all their hard work to be for naught, it's going to force them to expand the limitations of what jobs can do. Blue Mage should be the job that raises the bar.

I thought rdm would have been that job then thought it would be blu. For all the people saying we hyped ourselves up and had too high of expectations, I'll say you're wrong at least for myself. I definitely had myself believing that there was no way they could just remove some abilities and add in a few more and keep on going. That we would see some sorta of talent system or some other system to push the limits of the trinity system. Instead, they went with a job as its own type of content in a separate mini game.
12-17-2018, 10:31 AM
Auryan

Your last paragraph perfectly captured how I see BLU and the limited job system: an attempt to alter the all too rigid battle system. And if BLU and the rest can accomplish that, I would be happy to see them join the rest.
12-17-2018, 11:32 AM
jon041065

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auryan

Your last paragraph perfectly captured how I see BLU and the limited job system: an attempt to alter the all too rigid battle system. And if BLU and the rest can accomplish that, I would be happy to see them join the rest.

I'm pretty sure that you did not understand what Blueye meant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueyes

The thing is, SE hasn't given any indication that Blue Mage is intended to be their first step towards expansive changes to their existing battle system. It's been implied that Blue Mage and other Limited Jobs are meant to exist as a completely separate system with no plans for the two systems to ever interact with each other at the highest level.

This is definitely the impression I have after the live letter and what our side is saying is wrong with limited jobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueyes

If we want to see an expansive change to the existing system, we as fans will have to advocate for that. We should view Blue Mage as an opportunity for change; because if we can get SE to integrate Blue Mage into the existing system, if they don't want all their hard work to be for naught, it's going to force them to expand the limitations of what jobs can do. Blue Mage should be the job that raises the bar.

I could be reading this wrong but sounds like Blueye is saying the same kind of thing that I said to you earlier. That we believe SE can make blue mage work in the full game and still have the side content. That they would have to put the time and resources it would take for a 6.0 job towards the task. That it would probably take a multi-role or talent system. Making blue mage for the full game would be the thing that pushes them to do what you and I both agreed we want to see happen.

If SE sticks with the limited job concept, I would bet that they just put future limited jobs in their own boxes while keeping the same rigid trinity for the combat jobs.
12-17-2018, 12:22 PM
Auryan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon041065

I could be reading this wrong but sounds like Blueye is saying the same kind of thing that I said to you earlier. That we believe SE can make blue mage work in the full game and still have the side content. That they would have to put the time and resources it would take for a 6.0 job towards the task. That it would probably take a multi-role or talent system. Making blue mage for the full game would be the thing that pushes them to do what you and I both agreed we want to see happen.

If SE sticks with the limited job concept, I would bet that they just put future limited jobs in their own boxes while keeping the same rigid trinity for the combat jobs.

I think we're coming to the same conclusion then. Just from different angles.
What I got from Blueyes' statement is that the foundation for BLU could be used in order to influence the other jobs. Instead of the proposed idea of "balancing" BLU they can put effort into the other jobs to bring them to BLU's level. Where we differ is how we see the limited job system. You see it see as cordoning off BLU and the others from the main game, I see them as an alternative to "balancing" weird jobs into the rigid battle system; a lesser option that doesn't address why they have to be limited in the first place. I'd rather take the lesser option than see jobs like BLU turn into another SMN 2.0 or DRK.

And it doesn't have to be that way if like Blueyes suggests by using this system as a stepping stone on revamping the battle/job systems. And I would be happy if they accomplish this and if they do, I would be happy to see BLU and the rest integrate with the battle jobs. Of course this works on the assumption that overhauling the battle system is in fact what they want to do.

Or am I misrepresenting Blueyes, if so I apologize. Either way, we aren't too different in views. I'm sure a lot of people would like to see changes in the battle system.
12-17-2018, 12:38 PM
Nabril

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon041065

You do know that when SE puts out that 10mil figure number that they are counting ALL accounts that have ever paid for even 1 month of game time right?

XIV did pull SE out of the red with the 2.0 launch. I don't know if it's overtaken XI as the most profitable FF game to date just yet but the game is a large source of their revenue that's probably only beaten by their mobile department.

I'm pretty sure I said that jobs shouldn't cater to any one player group. Doubled checked. Yep, I said jobs should be for everyone and then you take your favorite job into the content of your choice.

So what you're saying is that they shouldn't tailor jobs that cater to any player group you're not a part of. There's no way they can please everyone, but as long as you're happy, we're good, right? Some of us want BLU to be as it is. I am one of those people.
12-17-2018, 12:40 PM
jon041065

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auryan

I think we're coming to the same conclusion then. Just from different angles.
What I got from Blueyes' statement is that the foundation for BLU could be used in order to influence the other jobs. Instead of the proposed idea of "balancing" BLU they can put effort into the other jobs to bring them to BLU's level. Where we differ is how we see the limited job system. You see it see as cordoning off BLU and the others from the main game, I see them as an alternative to "balancing" weird jobs into the rigid battle system; a lesser option that doesn't address why they have to be limited in the first place. I'd rather take the lesser option than see jobs like BLU turn into another SMN 2.0 or DRK.

And it doesn't have to be that way if like Blueyes suggests by using this system as a stepping stone on revamping the battle/job systems. And I would be happy if they accomplish this and if they do, I would be happy to see BLU and the rest integrate with the battle jobs. Of course this works on the assumption that overhauling the battle system is in fact what they want to do.

Or am I misrepresenting Blueyes, if so I apologize. Either way, we aren't too different in views. I'm sure a lot of people would like to see changes in the battle system.

Oh I definitely believe that most players want the same things and the division is over how to reach that goal. Myself and others see the limited jobs as a separate box in the corner because that's how they made it seem during the live letter. That it wouldn't be able to participate in current content because that would be OP and it wouldn't be fun to make it not OP. Then they went onto how other NEW jobs could be part of the limited system. They didn't state that if this goes well that they will go back and work on the current jobs.

Yeah we want to see the same end result but don't agree on the method to get there because not everyone is on the same page with limited jobs. It's possible the info given to us during the live letter was wrong or incomplete. If that's the case, then myself and the others will have to re-evaluate how we feel. However, if what was presented is the direction of the first limited job for the first year in that it's in a box by itself away from the full game, I believe that yourself and others with the "wait and see" mindset will join us in saying "SE we like that you are trying to add new content and shake things up but this isn't the right way. Please try again after consolidating our feedback".

This is what myself and others have been pushing for weeks now. Hopefully we will get there because it will be sad if SE decides to just not try to do content like this again period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon041065

It would be nice if the majority of players that are making up the two sides could come together and have a unified message of "SE please keep making open world and solo content but not through limited jobs". Our side feels the cost for how SE is doing that content is too high. It seems that the other side is worried about giving up ground now that they are getting the type of content they have been asking for and are worried they could lose it. Then you have the toxic people on both sides. Those that don't want any more solo content in 14 than there already is and the people that have a "I got mine so now I don't care" attitude. The compromise that myself and others have said we would like to see is both sides accepting that it will take SE longer to put out content for both groups but we all get the content that we are interested in. Sadly, the toxic people still keep doing what they have been doing. Either that there is no point in this content or things along the lines of "why should we have to wait? you just have to accept this content". I've thought about making a new thread with the message of what I have in quotes at the start of this paragraph but I would like someone from the other side to "make" it with me in that I know they are ready to give their support after I make the thread. To have at least one person from each side to take that first step of actually being together after this debate.

Forgot to add that I am someone that would like to see some more solo content. If you check my older posts you will see ideas I've had for solo BST content and how I would be fine with something like freelancer or mimic as a limited job and how the scope for potential gameplay could be sorta of "diablo lite".
12-17-2018, 12:42 PM
Auryan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

https://i.imgur.com/tC5uumk.png

IMO, RDM is a great job that is simplistic to pick up, with a good amount of nuance beneath the hood. Within FFXIV's world, where BLM is the elements of fire, thunder; and ice and WHM is the elements of water, earth, and air; RDM can use fire, thunder, earth, and air. Amidst all this, the casting of magic charges their sword to deal magical thrusts. It meets my fantasy of a spellblade, and is a jack of Black Magic, White Magic, and melee combat, but a master of none; it uses a combination of its three arts to grant it power on par with masters of any of the aforementioned elements.

That's the imagination I was hoping for with BLU; I don't care about Final Fantasy so much as I care about FFXIV. If I wanted FFV's BLU, I'd boot up FFV, as it were. If I wanted FFXI's BLU, I'd boot up FFXI.

I see where you're coming from. It all comes down on how we see the job. My idea of RDM was always a supporter job. RDM were decent healers, damage dealers and buffers. They were decent at everything, but didn't excel at anything. It's nice how they managed to work black and white magic into XIV RDM, but it all relates to damage dealing. The only supporting abilities it got was one group buff, a mediocre heal and raise. It's great that people like it, but it wasn't my fantasy job come to reality like how you see it. If it was my choice, I'd rather it be XIV's first support role job, but I admit, that would've needed much more accommodation to accomplish.

I was pretty much certain that they were going to do same thing to BLU as they did RDM. All of those monster skills would be drastically toned down (in potency, range and effects) and geared almost exclusively to just pure damage. BLU to me was always a weirdo. I always saw it as being able to do it all: heal, tank, dps, support, you name it. But that fantasy just wouldn't work in XIV. They ended up showing something closer to that fantasy than my first impression. And I appreciate that more than bringing a mage that looks like BLU but has few similarities.

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