Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

What I believe is currently happening in the writers' room:

https://i.imgur.com/djiTaNz.png

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Nooo I have enough of that annoying cat to last a lifetime

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Originally Posted by Esh-baal

This is a fear I've had for a few days now after finishing the MSQ. If they make her follow us around in future expansions then I'll just go back to WoW, my endgame here is MSQ and glamour. WoW already has this game beat on the latter despite the lack of dyes, and it's far easier to ignore a story or character I dislike there than it is here.

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Yea but then you have Anduin. Idk if that's any better

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Originally Posted by EvanescentRayne

Unfortunately, I have a feeling that the entire reason why...

Koana was made into Dawnservant alongside WL, despite the fact he's better at the job and actually fills the role when Tural needs him unlike WL

...is because he'll be holding down the fort while WL stays glued to our hip until...whenever the writers finally sideline her.

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If they do that despite all the criticism on the character I either leave completely or become a story skipper.
I sooner wait for Guild Wars 3 then bother with this crap character any longer.

I wouldn’t be surprised because SE is notorious for bad decisions and Wuk Lamat is such an obvious writers pet that I‘m sure Yoshida has a Body pillow of her.

If she really keeps following us that would also be a slap in the face for all those who liked Alyse, Ryne, Zero who were sidelined and forgotten so fast.

I really hope they just wanted to look how this story approaches gets received and that patch stories are something else.
It would be strange to announce this expansion as something of a test to decide how to proceed further and then force it through later anyway.

They have said that what happens in the future expansions depends on the reception of 7.0, but I assume that is more referring to the lala gizmo than anything. Unfortunately for all involved WL is enough of a charisma black hole to warp all discussion around her.

Man, image if we go shard hopping to the first for patch content and poochie has to tag along. Thancred's reunion with Ryne ruined by her gushing over how awesome Wookie is. G'raha trying to have a heartfelt moment with his people and Lyna when the focus then switches to Wuk Lmao talking about how she can't wait to learn about all her new friends and try their food! Then we're forced to show her around and introduce her to the Chais, and Alphi ain't even present. Of course Estinien will get a scene where he goes off to explore alone.

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Originally Posted by Karious

Man, image if we go shard hopping to the first for patch content and poochie has to tag along. Thancred's reunion with Ryne ruined by her gushing over how awesome Wookie is. G'raha trying to have a heartfelt moment with his people and Lyna when the focus then switches to Wuk Lmao talking about how she can't wait to learn about all her new friends and try their food! Then we're forced to show her around and introduce her to the Chais, and Alphi ain't even present. Of course Estinien will get a scene where he goes off to explore alone.

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Just wait till our character gets replaced.
There will be a message in 8.0 saying „you now play as Wuk Lamat“ and that’s it.
The character editor is replaced with only her and you get the job Wuk Warrior that is a solo class.
Also Wuk Lamat will have the ability to travel to other shards on rainbows helping the people, turning back the rejoinings and at the end you see all characters dance together while the WoL is nowhere to be seen.

They promised Job identity just didn’t say it was for her.

Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Karious

Man, image if we go shard hopping to the first for patch content and poochie has to tag along. Thancred's reunion with Ryne ruined by her gushing over how awesome Wookie is. G'raha trying to have a heartfelt moment with his people and Lyna when the focus then switches to Wuk Lmao talking about how she can't wait to learn about all her new friends and try their food! Then we're forced to show her around and introduce her to the Chais, and Alphi ain't even present. Of course Estinien will get a scene where he goes off to explore alone.

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Don't forget the 13th! She will use her power of friendship on the Voidsent.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Just wait till our character gets replaced.
There will be a message in 8.0 saying (you now play as Wuk Lamat“ and that’s it.
The character editor is replaced with only her and you get the job Wuk Warrior that is a solo solo class.
Also Wuk Lamat will have the ability to travel to other shards on rainbows helping the people, turning back the rejoicings and at the end you see all characters dance together while the WoL is nowhere to be seen.

They promised Job identity just didn’t say it was for her.

Please look forward to it.

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Will we be able to choose between Tank Wuk Lamat and DPS Wuk Lamat or will DPS Wuk Lamat be the new 8.0 job?

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Will we be able to choose between Tank Wuk Lamat and DPS Wuk Lamat or will DPS Wuk Lamat be the new 8.0 job?

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Given the 100 trial it’s all

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

If they do that despite all the criticism on the character I either leave completely or become a story skipper.
I sooner wait for Guild Wars 3 then bother with this crap character any longer.

I wouldn’t be surprised because SE is notorious for bad decisions and Wuk Lamat is such an obvious writers pet that I‘m sure Yoshida has a Body pillow of her.

If she really keeps following us that would also be a slap in the face for all those who liked Alyse, Ryne, Zero who were sidelined and forgotten so fast.

I really hope they just wanted to look how this story approaches gets received and that patch stories are something else.
It would be strange to announce this expansion as something of a test to decide how to proceed further and then force it through later anyway.

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For better or worse, the 7.1 and 7.2 patch narratives are going to be almost set in stone at this point with how far out they develop for this game. So it's unlikely that feedback will be reflected until much later.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Will we be able to choose between Tank Wuk Lamat and DPS Wuk Lamat or will DPS Wuk Lamat be the new 8.0 job?

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The Wuk Lamat class will have all other classes powers....only better.

I actually keep trying to think up worse characters than her... you know like Bella Swan, Kyle Ren, Rey Palpatine ,(she ain't no Skywalker in my eyes), Anakin Skywalker and I just can't seem to see them as worse than her...

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Originally Posted by Rannie

I actually keep trying to think up worse characters than her... you know like Bella Swan, Kyle Ren, Rey Palpatine ,(she ain't no Skywalker in my eyes), Anakin Skywalker and I just can't seem to see them as worse than her...

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Anakin Skywalker is edgekino though, don't lump him in with those losers.

I don't truly have hope for the immediate future of the narrative and will at least take a heavy step back, and see if I even still care later on.
But for the case they pull the cart out of the mud again, my one solace is that at least they didn't ruin one of the places I actually cared about and wanted to go to. This whole location was trying way too hard to copy the real world for me, just with cats and lizards instead of people more recognisable as human(-like). Completely regardless of how "culturally sensitive" or not it was, and where one'd stand politically, for me it's simply not what I was interested in, coming from all the cool locations we had in prior content. Inspiration is fine, yeah. We've always had that. But not plain copies. E.g. speaking of wild west locations: I'd always found Ul'dah's mix of desert bartering culture and Western frontier-style ruthless capitalism with mining, plus its very own identity, really fun and inspired. One can see some building blocks, but it's an unexpected blend, it's not just those elements, and in the end Ul'dah is simply Ul'dah.
I feel like a lot of creativity got lost along the way there. I mean, I was okay with the concept in principle. If the story had been good, I wouldn't have said anything. But it wasn't.

But maybe if, in a few months or years, someone wants to write something again that I'll be interested in, it won't have the mark, "We can't do that, we already did that in Dawntrail." That's... a very small comfort, but it is one.

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Originally Posted by Karious

Anakin Skywalker is edgekino though, don't lump him in with those losers.

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Anakin Skywalker was a whiney brat who hated "sand"

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Anakin Skywalker was a whiney brat who hated "sand"

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He killed younglings! I grew up with the prequels though, so I'm probably biased. He's awesome, mostly in episode 3 and Hayden is a very nice actor who really cares about the role.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Anakin Skywalker was a whiney brat who hated "sand"

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That was another time back then though. 2002 was a year were that was ok and the point of Anakin was that he was a brat who thought he was a bigger number and far wiser then he actually was. That was his whole tragedy. Having his naive mindset broken and being unmade.
Back then that was fine.
It was a time were reign of fire, arac attack and ghost ship were released, between the 90s cringe and „modern“ story telling.


Rey for example was just a Mary sue and bad writing and Wuk Lamat (while not as bad) is far more near her then Anakin.
Wuk Lamat is an old cringe trope in a setting were she doesn‘t belong.

I won‘t stay for this Anakin slander. >:(

I don't remember that crap being ok even in 2002 he was memed back then and badly for how bad the character was as well as the directions he was given. The kid who played young anakin never worked again and got litteral hate mail.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

I don't remember that crap being ok even in 2002 he was memed back then and badly for how bad the character was as well as the directions he was given. The kid who played young anakin never worked again and got litteral hate mail.

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Eh I don‘t remember the hate being that bad back then, at least not in my country. But that was before social media. But I believe you in this one.

Anyway back on topic.
What I‘m trying to say is that the character depends on the setting.
Stupid action hero tropes are fine for example a Han Solo.
Wuk Lamat though is a trope in a fantasy setting with normaly more mature writing.
The DT setting bend’s backwards to try to have her fit whereas stuff like Hildebrand was normally a self contained story.

She would have been fine in another game as the main character, maybe even another final fantasy.
Even tactics advance was darker and more mature.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Anakin Skywalker was a whiney brat who hated "sand"

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Dude, sand sucks. Why do you hate relatable villains? It is coarse, rough and irritating and it does get everywhere. I don't think there's a more relatable line in all of Star Wars than that one.

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Originally Posted by SeriousPan

Dude, sand sucks. Why do you hate relatable villains? It is coarse, rough and irritating and it does get everywhere. I don't think there's a more relatable line in all of Star Wars than that one.

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<--- native floridian and been to the beach a lot dear... it's annoying but not something to go "I hate sand because it gets everywhere" =P

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Originally Posted by Rannie

<--- native floridian and been to the beach a lot dear... it's annoying but not something to go "I hate sand because it gets everywhere" =P

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I'm bloody Australian and lived near the beach my whole life! I have never stopped hating sand.

I can tolerate it on the surface... but my heart knows how I feel.

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Originally Posted by SeriousPan

I'm bloody Australian and lived near the beach my whole life! I have never stopped hating sand.

I can tolerate it on the surface... but my heart knows how I feel.

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Seriously hating sand that much *shakes head* again annoying but it happens *shrugs* whatever though you do you and feel your way

Back on topic... Boy did they really just have us pull an Emet Selch on the people of Solution nine? Like not even looking at other options or considering how the people there were not different than the omnicrons? Just a "nah flip the power switch fuck em" ????

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Originally Posted by Karious

Back on topic... Boy did they really just have us pull an Emet Selch on the people of Solution nine? Like not even looking at other options or considering how the people there were not different than the omnicrons? Just a "nah flip the power switch fuck em" ????

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Not really, the key difference is how we exist. We exist at the cost of no one but the Ancients and from them sprouted several shards of individual life that subsists on itself and affects no one else. The Memories require the living to be killed and have their souls taken away and denied the cycle of rebirth, effectively taking them out of existance permanently. It's unsustainable long term and, as Sphene mentions, the amount of people it supports is increasing all the time. One city might require 10 souls harvest one day... then 20... then 100... then 1000.

More people, more death. There was no alternative way to keep the system operational. AI Sphene activates an Intershard WMD to wipe out an insane amount of life all at once in several different shards. The comparison falls apart as soon as it becomes "save the living or spare a system that will run out of souls to harvest eventually and shut down anyway."

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Originally Posted by SeriousPan

Not really, the key difference is how we exist. We exist at the cost of no one but the Ancients and from them sprouted several shards of individual life that subsists on itself and affects no one else. The Memories require the living to be killed and have their souls taken away and denied the cycle of rebirth, effectively taking them out of existance permanently. It's unsustainable long term and, as Sphene mentions, the amount of people it supports is increasing all the time. One city might require 10 souls harvest one day... then 20... then 100... then 1000.

More people, more death. There was no alternative way to keep the system operational. AI Sphene activates an Intershard WMD to wipe out an insane amount of life all at once in several different shards. The comparison falls apart as soon as it becomes "save the living or spare a system that will run out of souls to harvest eventually and shut down anyway."

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I get that, yeah. Just seems weird they didn't even try to bring up Dynamis or something and be like "there's an infinite amount of this stuff in the universe, we're all the smartest people in this setting we don't we jury rig your system to run off dynamis instead so youre not soul harvesting".

Its an ultimatum, but it just seems out of character for the scions to pull an "us or them" when Emet did it two expansions ago on the scions.

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Originally Posted by SeriousPan

Not really, the key difference is how we exist. We exist at the cost of no one but the Ancients and from them sprouted several shards of individual life that subsists on itself and affects no one else. The Memories require the living to be killed and have their souls taken away and denied the cycle of rebirth, effectively taking them out of existance permanently. It's unsustainable long term and, as Sphene mentions, the amount of people it supports is increasing all the time. One city might require 10 souls harvest one day... then 20... then 100... then 1000.

More people, more death. There was no alternative way to keep the system operational. AI Sphene activates an Intershard WMD to wipe out an insane amount of life all at once in several different shards. The comparison falls apart as soon as it becomes "save the living or spare a system that will run out of souls to harvest eventually and shut down anyway."

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Problem was not that there was no other solution (Omicrons) but that there was no grey area.
That part could have been a great inner turmoil where we remember Emet but all of that gets taken away because they WANT to be deleted.
They are happy for the end and so there is no gray area just oh well.
I thought it was disgusting because while the system was sick those people for me were still living and the little sidequests sad for me.

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Originally Posted by SeriousPan

Not really, the key difference is how we exist. We exist at the cost of no one but the Ancients and from them sprouted several shards of individual life that subsists on itself and affects no one else. The Memories require the living to be killed and have their souls taken away and denied the cycle of rebirth, effectively taking them out of existance permanently. It's unsustainable long term and, as Sphene mentions, the amount of people it supports is increasing all the time. One city might require 10 souls harvest one day... then 20... then 100... then 1000.

More people, more death. There was no alternative way to keep the system operational. AI Sphene activates an Intershard WMD to wipe out an insane amount of life all at once in several different shards. The comparison falls apart as soon as it becomes "save the living or spare a system that will run out of souls to harvest eventually and shut down anyway."

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That's why looking at other options and bringing up the omicrons specifically. They accomplished essentially the same thing Sphene was trying to do without the whole soul sucking business.
Even if it didn't work out in the end, offering up a potential alternate solution to their problem that we are very much aware of would've been nice. "Hey, rather than aether intensive hard light hologram bodies, have you considered mechanical ones? We could hook you up with some people that know how to make that work if you'd just put your apocalypse plan on hold for like a week."

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Problem was not that there was no other solution (Omicrons) but that there was no grey area.
That part could have been a great inner turmoil where we remember Emet but all of that gets taken away because they WANT to be deleted.
They are happy for the end and so there is no gray area just oh well.
I thought it was disgusting because while the system was sick those people for me were still living and the little sidequests sad for me.

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Three of them wanted to be deleted and all three are parents to the people they'd be protecting by being erased. But 90% of them aren't even physical and get no say in what's going to happen to them. Heck, we didn't even tell Krile's parents. They figured it out. And that is a major issue. Why are these non-people figuring things out? Why are these non-people escaping the Matrix and running rebellions? Why am I dressing up like a bunny for these non-people?

We handwave away their personhood to keep the story moving, but they show every indicator of intelligent life. They have hopes, desires, feelings, discernment. What about them is not a person besides some metaphysical discussion we weren't allowed to have before we agreed to delete them all at a non-person's request! If these are not people worthy of our consideration, why are we obeying one of them?

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

That's why looking at other options and bringing up the omicrons specifically. They accomplished essentially the same thing Sphene was trying to do without the whole soul sucking business.
Even if it didn't work out in the end, offering up a potential alternate solution to their problem that we are very much aware of would've been nice. "Hey, rather than aether intensive hard light hologram bodies, have you considered mechanical ones? We could hook you up with some people that know how to make that work if you'd just put your apocalypse plan on hold for like a week."

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I just wanted to scream at her STOP TRYING TO BE EMET-SELCH! YOU ARE NOT EMET-SELCH! The Sundered are made of parts of his people. There is no splitting the difference and coming to terms with that one. Immortality? We've run across like 44 different options for immortality. We got clones, we got omicron, we got dynamis, we got options.

So, of course, bad programming immediately breaks her brain so the plot will happen...

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

Three of them wanted to be deleted and all three are parents to the people they'd be protecting by being erased. But 90% of them aren't even physical and get no say in what's going to happen to them. Heck, we didn't even tell Krile's parents. They figured it out. And that is a major issue. Why are these non-people figuring things out? Why are these non-people escaping the Matrix and running rebellions? Why am I dressing up like a bunny for these non-people?

We handwave away their personhood to keep the story moving, but they show every indicator of intelligent life. They have hopes, desires, feelings, discernment. What about them is not a person besides some metaphysical discussion we weren't allowed to have before we agreed to delete them all at a non-person's request! If these are not people worthy of our consideration, why are we obeying one of them?.

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Yeah. It’s basically the topic of at what point is an AI a living being.
For me all those people were alive. They were not the originals but there was no distinction between them.
Krile treated her parents like they were real and yet the game treats them as just memories and not living.

It’s really strange and goes against much of the narrative till now.

I like it for the question it offers and the philosophy but I hate how the game treaded it.
That play and ice cream scenes were just another „look Wuk Lamat is important“ try instead of going into detail with those people.
This should have been the zone were WE are at the center thinking about it and having Emets words with us. Were we contemplate how the Ascians felt and maybe come to terms with „at the end of the day we all just want to survive but the world is not always just“

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Originally Posted by Karious

Back on topic... Boy did they really just have us pull an Emet Selch on the people of Solution nine? Like not even looking at other options or considering how the people there were not different than the omnicrons? Just a "nah flip the power switch fuck em" ????

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3 expansions final story dungeon was an apocalypse time travel thing in a row.
I liked Alexandria but god damn can we get some variety in the story telling, there's only so many times I can see "this is where our world ended" before I start eye rolling so hard I go blind.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

3 expansions final story dungeon was an apocalypse time travel thing in a row.
I liked Alexandria but god damn can we get some variety in the story telling, there's only so many times I can see "this is where our world ended" before I start eye rolling so hard I go blind.

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As long as it sells, I guess. FFXIV is the money printing cow for the square enix so, of course, they are going to utilize the tried-and-true formular as long as possible. Looking at the Japanese economy and Square Enix's profit of late, I believe that they will continue repeat this kind of story until the end of time (Don't forget, we have many reflections left ;))

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Originally Posted by Karious

Back on topic... Boy did they really just have us pull an Emet Selch on the people of Solution nine? Like not even looking at other options or considering how the people there were not different than the omnicrons? Just a "nah flip the power switch fuck em" ????

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The problem on our end was that Sphene started a ticking clock and refused to negotiate or talk this through. A solution may have been possible, but our hand was forced early. That part is fine.

Now, as for why Sphene did that, you see it's uh, it's... see she thought about it long and hard and uh, she... decided this was the only way. If they'd put in more effort or explanation as to why our alternatives couldn't work, this plot point may have succeeded. Or if she had legitimate reason to distrust us, because frankly the only person outside of Alexandria who screwed her people over was Zoraal, and we killed him. But they didn't feel like expanding on Sphene (yet) so we got rushed along to a nonsensical conclusion.

Also yeah Otis at the least should have fought back against us. The dude is the epitome of the noble knight protecting his queen and country, and here we are saying "yeah we plan to defy your queen and delete your country and all its children lol" and he just rolls along with it. Also would have given us some actual gameplay during the final area with a solo instance battle, and they could have even made it a bit more interesting with the play narrator (or, ugh, Wuk) trying to play off the WoL and Otis's fight to the death as part of the play. "Alas, an Alexandrian Knight turns traitor and draws their weapon against the noble Otis!" or something.

Edit - Actually thinking back on it the whole play sequence annoyed me. Otis even gives us a warning beforehand like "hey don't sweat it if you mess it up, it's all part of the fun" and then we're given precisely 0 options in that cutscene. Why couldn't we have some options to either go along with the story Otis wrote, or mess up our lines, or do some wacky shenanigans?

Amaurot 3: This time it's really over.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Edit - Actually thinking back on it the whole play sequence annoyed me. Otis even gives us a warning beforehand like "hey don't sweat it if you mess it up, it's all part of the fun" and then we're given precisely 0 options in that cutscene. Why couldn't we have some options to either go along with the story Otis wrote, or mess up our lines, or do some wacky shenanigans?

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I was really hoping for a solo instance where we get to beat seven kinds of poo out of wuk with the horrified/cheering children in the background.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

I was really hoping for a solo instance where we get to beat seven kinds of poo out of wuk with the horrified/cheering children in the background.

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Honestly even if it was just through dialogue options where we can choose to get a little... overzealous and smack her, it'd have been fun. Have it start off with a nice mock battle and by the end of it have WoL and Wuk actually beating the crap out of each other and destroying the set as the narrator frantically tries to play it off. "Such is the uh, the brutality of war, so let's... let's uh, move on..."

Also unrelated but didn't Urianger make a big deal at the cabin about wanting to test himself against us in this competition, just to see how he'd fare? Did I have a fever dream and miss that fight or did the writers forget to cut that line when they decided to not have us actually fight the Scions?

I know the answer it just makes me sad.

If we had cut just one or two hours of Wuk Lamat to have a silly beach volleyball scene against the dads on vacation, that would have been more genuine friendly conflict we were promised than what we got.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

If we had cut just one or two hours of Wuk Lamat to have a silly beach volleyball scene against the dads on vacation, that would have been more genuine friendly conflict we were promised than what we got.

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Which is extra annoying, given that the new trust glamours for Scions are beach episode ones but they don't get cannon scenes to use them for :)

Now that I think about it, isnt Wuk Lamat the only Tank NPC for Trusts in the dungeons for this expansion?

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

Now that I think about it, isnt Wuk Lamat the only Tank NPC for Trusts in the dungeons for this expansion?

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I can only check up to 97 but you can have another tank for the 97 one IF you heal