As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I enjoy the supportive aspect of healing; I'd just like to see more to it than the damage and healing dealt by itself. That said, I don't want to be cycling through buff maintenance either, as I've seen suggested as an alternative for filler time. Any ideas?

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I wish this were the case too, what the game needs is more relevant utility that can be used by healers, and doing this without resorting to DPS is difficult. As a PLD I love the support side of it, and wish it were possible to create skills that were equally as good as the DPS output of WAR without being anything to do with DPS, but for now, just like healers, deal with the DPS is best meta and make the best of it.

The current utility that healers could have:
- Heal (has a cap)
- Restore TP of party(has a cap, and would be OP if able to be executed plentifully)
- Restore MP of party (has a cap, and would be OP if able to be executed plentifully)
- Mitigate (has a cap)
- Magic/physical damage down

All other forms of utility involve increasing damage, in the form of:
- Increase direct damage
- Increase skill/spell speed
- Increase crit
- slashing/piercing/blunt resist down
- magic/physical damage up

This isn't take into account that most of these don't even fit healer.

All other ways involve making healing much harder to play as well (I want healing mudras for CHM, but that wouldn't go over well I don't think)

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Originally Posted by Taika

Please show some concrete examples (quotes within context) these "insults" directed towards you in this thread? From what I've seen, and I've been following this thread quite a lot, most of the hostility has come from a single person, and that is you.


Here you go with the asumptions again. It would be much more constructive if you would try to read what people actually write instead of making assumptions that don't have anything to do with the words in the posts.


I'm main healer (have been since 1.0, WHM and SCH), have cleared A12S before echo, and can support their advice. But I don't think you should require a person to have certain experience or skill level to be allowed to take part in discussion. Of course if advice is given, it's often good to take a look at the background of a person who is giving it.

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It was removed I think cant see it Im afraid. But lamdafish has said why I was called it so theres your evidence

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Originally Posted by Feyona

It was removed I think cant see it Im afraid. But lamdafish has said why I was called it so theres your evidence

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Nothing has been removed.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

It was removed I think cant see it Im afraid. But lamdafish has said why I was called it so theres your evidence

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Nothing was removed. You weren't actually "called" anything, rather your behavior was described. People obsevered your behavior and used words to describe it, nobody attacked you with the intent of being malicious. I wouldn't use my own words as evidence or concrete examples of insults being directed towards you at all.

Ultimately you have no concrete examples of being attacked, whereas I have detailed your hostility in droves (as well as a lot of positive comments from the rest of the community), so please, follow my original advice and slow down and listen to the arguments being put forth, or if that is truly impossible, then think hard before you comment.

Also for the record:

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Originally Posted by Feyona

And when you say 'peers' it comes across like 'betters'

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Peer: noun
1. a person of the same legal status.
2. a person who is equal to another in abilities, qualifications, age, background, and social status.
3. something of equal worth or quality.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/peer

You changed the entire definition of a word to suit your agenda, just saying :rolleyes:.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Lambdafish already post a compilation. Your posts frequently devolve into playing the victim or twisting the narrative to better suit your stance. Case in point, you cite things going "both ways" yet none of us have disagreed with the assertion. I and others have repeatedly acknowledge a static requiring healer DPS to mask their own poor performance is simply a bad group. People only started taking issue when you continuously defended only healing regardless of circumstance. We really cannot break this down further but I shall try.

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Dont you reaize that some of you do exactly the same to me as what you accuse me of? I can go back and qoite it all with evidence because its there and alot of my posts quoted what has been said. and I dont really care much about optimal play as such I care more about enjoyment of everyone not just the chosen few that can play expertly or how you expect them to

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Nothing was removed. You weren't actually "called" anything, rather your behavior was described. People obsevered your behavior and used words to describe it, nobody attacked you with the intent of being malicious. I wouldn't use my own words as evidence or concrete examples of insults being directed towards you at all.



Peer: noun
1. a person of the same legal status.
2. a person who is equal to another in abilities, qualifications, age, background, and social status.
3. something of equal worth or quality.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/peer

You changed the entire definition of a word to suit your agenda, just saying :rolleyes:.

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oh please this is getting ridiculous wnzer actually admited she called me crazy give it a rest you are not going to get rid if me by opposing what I say or attempting to discredit what I say.

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Originally Posted by AceFoxfire

Fey has got a lot old post of hostility just for showing her opinion about not want to dps if that person just was to heal only. Plus saying your lowering "yourself" I think anyone would take that as personal attack on themselves from the way you context that.

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Here is one post in agreement

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Generally speaking, the only things we can do in the game are: dealing damage, healing damage, buffing self and allies, debuffing enemies. Offensive buffs and debuffs are probably the most lacking element in the healer tool kits, AST being the only one with multiple of them.

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I'm not sure giving healers access to more buffs/debuffs would fix the problem though. Even if the meta changed from healers dpsing when they can to healers buffing/debuffing when they can, we would be in the same spot. Instead of threads about why healers should dps, we'd have threads about why healers should buff/debuff.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I'm not sure giving healers access to more buffs/debuffs would fix the problem though.

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What problem? Neither the quote nor my post implied any problem. I was only making a simple observation about the abilities we do and do not have.

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

1) I'm curious now.

3) I insulted you? Where please ? At this point I really want some evidences.

4) Did I admit I attacked you? Yeah, when I said you were crazy. Wasn't it obvious ? So try to stick on this, and not grabbing this out its context again. And again, before this little "crazy" word, it never happened outside of this - that's why I said I did.

So, yeah, as I said, i won't answer your comments again.

Now i'm just waiting ALL your proof about this last message. :)
[SIZE="1"]And as proof that you lied, it's a fact actually. When you quoted me or someone else and made some very strange assumptions of our thoughts as if it was facts for example. When you said I was thinking you were a bad healer because reasons. Or that I attacked you farewell, you strange stalker.

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Here is evidence of someone insulting asking for evidence of how they insulted me and admits they insulted me if that makes any sense

Obviously. Remember when and where I said you were crazy ? Or you'd rather stay out of context. :)
Take a huge breath, my friend... It's time to go back in the past. ;)

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Wanzer in particulary has decided to be quite derogatory and attack my personality for some reason only she knows. Im certainly not sure why . The only reason I can think of is that I didnt agree that I suck if I dont dps and must improve myself yet already said that I do and have.

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What the... Me ? In particulary ? AGAIN ?! <_<

It's very hard to resist at your baits honestly. But you are totally crazy, my friend. I don't give a single crap about you. I didn't even say once that you suck, or you should change your playstyle, or that I hate healers that don't DPS (another proof that you never read anything). You can even check all my previous comments : IT. JUST. NEVER. HAPPENED.
But again, your paranoia talked for you, and your hypocrisy called me out. Why ? Are you in search for your worst enemy now ? Can't you find a real one who really says something bad against you ?

The only thing that i told you is "i really don't like liars who try to make their points based on sentences out of the context, and/or trying to make themselve as victims when there is no attack at all". Nothing else, nothing more. And this, isn't even an insult, you know. I could even use the exact same sentence for a healer DPS doing the same. But here, you edited your post again to fill it with crap, and yeah, it's very sneaky and i'm very amazed.

And at this point I, and only I, am being attacked by your behaviour (since a few comments from you). And you should have noticed it at this point.

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Can you notice the problem here? Why did I say you were crazy?
Nah, It can't be because you changed many times what I said and tried to describe me like a crap only there to attack you.
Nah, it's probably not because of this. Not even because I had to remind you many times my stance about the whole thread, totally at the opposite of what you said I was thinking. Naaaah... This is true, it wasn't crazy at all to have your behaviour. You are right, we are all bad people. And we love harassing innocent persons because it's fun ; you are probably just too good for this world actually. As you said, and you really said it : "you are the nicer person on this thread".
Unbelievable...


By the way, saying you are crazy isn't even an insult. As well as saying you lied. It's what we can call facts. And not just facts actually, but facts based on evidences (and I don't even have to say "maybe they removed these proof", because they are real). Because, you know : Defamation.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/defamation?s=t

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noun
1.the act of defaming; false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another, as by slander or libel; calumny:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I enjoy the supportive aspect of healing; I'd just like to see more to it than the damage and healing dealt by itself. That said, I don't want to be cycling through buff maintenance either, as I've seen suggested as an alternative for filler time. Any ideas?

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Think Ive said it before I think if healers could dps to heal not just through assize but other spells as well, It works for disc priest in wow. And works through assize. I hope Im answering the question you asked

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

Obviously. Remember when and where I said you were crazy ? Or you'd rather stay out of context. :)


Nah, it's probably not because of this. Not even because I had to remind you many times my stance about the whole thread. Naaaah... This is true, it wasn't crazy at all to have your behaviour. You are right, we are all bad people. And we love harassing innocent persons because it's fun ; you are probably just too good for this world. As you said "you are the nicer person on this thread".
Unbelievable...


By the way, saying you are crazy isn't even an insult. As well as saying you lied. It's what we can call facts. And not just facts actually, but facts based on evidences. Because, you know : Defamation.

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Please stop throwing mental health issues around Im sure your not qualified to do so and I think you need to look at whether your behaviour is appropriate here and this is not said with any hostility intended Im asking you to refrain from using words. like paranoia to describe bahaviour when even professional hesitate to label anyone's condition and its always confidential so I know you are not qualified anyway. and my post limit is up but to bourne if you really want to see evedence of hostility to non dps healers then look at my thread Other than this Im not replying to any more off topic posts but Im still going to put my case of why I posted here in the first place there is a problem in my opinion with forced healer dps I will say here though that I have attempted several times to let this drop and tried to get the conversation back to normal but its you that wont leave it alone even when I have tried to talk in a reasonable way. That you percieve my responses as hostile I can say only one of them was defensive after being insulted several times I did not want to retaliate at all thats why I removed it. My posts here were never made with hostility in mind its just that I dont agree with you and said so plus if your talking about my experiencd and your wrong I will say so and thats not hostility Furthermore, what you call lies were misinterpretation of wht I meant so there is no evidence and please also look at the word insult as evidence if you need any more. You contiue (refering to the posts below) To judge zero you have already misinterpreted what happened once and I told you are wrong about what happened so why are you doing it again? Ive said the truth of what happenned in my static and your saying stuff that isnt true about it why? What is the motive you have for derrogating my healing when a few posts ago you said it was good? I repeat they never practiced with me on a9 at all. Ihad left the group and I did not have a terrible attitude towards them yes it took along time for us to clear but half of us were new to raiding

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Please stop throwing mental health issues around Im sure your not qualified to do so and I think you need to look at whether your behaviour is appropriate here

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Hum. Hmmm.
https://www.filepicker.io/api/file/tYrlI82nSOO21rSweOss

Ok. So basically you can say whatever you want, but nobody can tell you when your behaviour sucks, why it sucks, and how it sucks. So you can lie, i guess? You can say... I don't know... Describe people how you want, but they can't? Making strange assumptions only based on your feelings and your lack of confidence but... In a good way? You can attack people but they can't defend themselves to clarify things? Ok, well, as an non-professional, at least can I ask you to leave me alone now? (not just me actually) Because it looks like harassment since a while. And people are... A bit tired of this situation. But, can I tell you this even if I have no university degree? Or you are going to be mad at me for saying this also?

OH, and by the way :

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Omg the insults just keep pouring out dont they victim, crazy, paranoid, liar, now strange stalker what next lol? I think its you that has issues dont project your messed up stuff onto me

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Or should I call you doctor ? :)

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Dont you reaize that some of you do exactly the same to me as what you accuse me of? I can go back and qoite it all with evidence because its there and alot of my posts quoted what has been said. and I dont really care much about optimal play as such I care more about enjoyment of everyone not just the chosen few that can play expertly or how you expect them to

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By all means, go and quote these examples. The majority who have kept up with this thread have only repeated the same stance ad nauseum. I'm curious what you perceive "insulting".

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Originally Posted by Feyona

and my post limit is up but to bourne if you really want to see evedence of hostility to non dps healers then look at my thread Other than this Im not replying to any more off topic posts but Im still going to put my case of why I posted here in the first place there is a problem in my opinion with forced healer dps

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Oh, so your evidences of people attacking you on this thread are on... a different thread. Well, at last now we know. Thanks.

Edit :

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I have attempted several times to let this drop and tried to get the conversation back to normal but its you that wont leave it alone even when I have tried to talk in a reasonable way. That you percieve my responses as hostile I can say only one of them was defensive after being insulted several times I did not want to retaliate at all thats why I removed it. My posts here were never made with hostility in mind its just that I dont agree with you and said so plus if your talking about my experiencd and your wrong I will say so and thats not hostility

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At some point, you really should just stop. It's embarassing. I mean, how can you convince yourself about this? You are litteraly bullying someone and you just don't care. And for no reason. Even when we all thought the discussion was over you came back with a false accusation on the whole community. And the train started again. Even when I was following people's advices about no responding to you, you took this to taunt me as a proof of your nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I think she may not respond because she doesnt have a justifiable answer. And one person here that actually did want to communicate without insults is me. And just because I dont agree with you when your wrong Im getting hate because some of you on here only like points to support healer dps. Which I cant agree to or I would have to lie and say its good for everyone, which it isnt. Because Im one who says it isnt good for me. Apart from that if you are withdrawing isnt it you that cant communicate properly? Works both ways

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So now, the real question is : Are you kidding me? Is this fun for you? Because it is not for me. Are you a troll? What is your long term goal about this?
You are the worst person I ever met on this whole forum. You are just a wall. You only see what you want to see, listen what you want to listen. You randomly attack people and quickly acting like a victim. It's just impossible to deal with you and your nonsense. Even when we choose to ignore you, you keep coming, and coming, and coming... It. Just. Never. Stops. You can't stop.

I don't know you, I don't know who you are in your real life. And I don't want to know. But I'm not your toy, my friend. And I'm sick of this. I'm not even your enemy, but anyway now i'm done. Here you go, you deserve it :
Congratulations ! You won something ! Yay !
https://i.imgur.com/T4rYutM.gif

I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating that people be forced to dps against their will. Might make a recommendation to change from off healer to main healer, maybe.

Your other thread was, at its core, asking to change the meta of the game. Unless Square Enix directly does something to either remove cleric stance or greatly intensify healing requirements, that's not going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Please stop throwing mental health issues

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Are you 4? The word crazy doesn't imply mental health issues in this context (or very many contexts at all), it implies that your arguement and logic is not sound, and you attitude is agressive and confrontational:


https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/crazy

Crazy:
informal
1. Mad, especially as manifested in wild or aggressive behaviour.


In actuality you have inflated this thread another 5 or so pages simply because someone called you "crazy". How did you ever survive on the internet? I'm convinced you are a troll, and I think everyone should jump ship and stop giving you attention.

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Originally Posted by AceFoxfire

Hey I know Fey personally and she a dam great healer we have done a9s, a10s and a11s together as healers.

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Noone is disputing how Fey plays now since that was never up for debate. The issue was them calling the community toxic from joining a group as SCH and getting kicked for both being a terrible Healer and having terrible SCH DPS, as well as having a terrible attitude towards not only the healer meta, but the off-heals meta. (going off the existing logs of Fey's group that they referenced to for both A9S and A9N).

We don't know Fey personally like you might. But if you are familiar with the English language and read their comments you could probably understand where this feeling of them being hostile towards the player base comes from, especially when their whole issue came from some type of half-fabricated story of how they were kicked from a raid group after a single attempt to play optimally as an off-heals SCH, for which they referenced their logs to which simply was not the case.

it was something like 132 attempts with a break in the middle where the group practiced on A9 normal to let Fey learn to DPS, which they managed to cast some damage spells. I figure the issue came from when they went back into A9S and Fey didn't DPS after them spending time in A9 normal specifically for them they decided to pursue other options, which is completely fair and IMO going far above what most groups would do in that situation.

Which in itself shows how patient and understanding the player base is of how difficult the meta may be to adjust to if you aren't used to it in a Raid setting.

This thread has become such a mess.

Indeed. Would be so much easier to just ignore the personal squabbles. There hasn't been a new perspective or argument the past 70 pages at least.

But hey, people do the weirdest things for entertainment.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I wish this were the case too, what the game needs is more relevant utility that can be used by healers, and doing this without resorting to DPS is difficult. As a PLD I love the support side of it, and wish it were possible to create skills that were equally as good as the DPS output of WAR without being anything to do with DPS, but for now, just like healers, deal with the DPS is best meta and make the best of it.

<snip>

All other ways involve making healing much harder to play as well (I want healing mudras for CHM, but that wouldn't go over well I don't think).

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I'd be fine with making healers harder to play, tbh. I'd love to see more use of game knowledge, for instance; think Mercy in Overwatch—one simple utility skill, but the tactical understanding for its optimization is rather hefty. Being able to build and release element for oGCD casts with variable usage (e.g. an Aero briefly accelerating allied movement, adding jump height, or pushing back an enemy) would add so much depth to the healer role and its sense of being well-integrated into the party. Those things don't need to be unique to healers, or even any trans-role "support", but having a toolkit that benefits enough from being aware of the party and providing the impetus and safety for its various tactics as to make that its predominant mindset would make that role for me.

Honestly, I feel like one of the main reasons the DPS meta has become as rutted as it has is because the game itself is too easy, in the sense of having too few player-side or battlefield mechanics to really play around with. There's little to set up, especially as a team. And while even those added functions would return to an aim of maximizing damage amid meeting more numerous and more creative shorter-term steps to reach a faster clear in the long term, it would at least give versatility a leg to stand on, rather than class's being gauged by their absolute DPS outputs and how few dependencies they have (e.g. WAR not needing to MT for any of its added damage). If there was more to interact with and bring out versatility in the first place, I doubt gameplay would be so quick to boil down to raw damage, provided there's sufficient variety between and within each content encounter.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Honestly, I feel like one of the main reasons the DPS meta has become as rutted as it has is because the game itself is too easy

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And this is why it will never happen, because the dev team and half the community still think the game is too hard for some reason. I think the dev team actually thinks that the presentation of stats that we have now is too complicated, and too in depth...

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Indeed. Would be so much easier to just ignore the personal squabbles. There hasn't been a new perspective or argument the past 70 pages at least.

But hey, people do the weirdest things for entertainment.

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I wish there was a new perspective lol. But there has been so many healer DPS threads that I fear horses may be on the verge of extinction.

Not gonna lie, I have found the last 70 pages quite entertaining.

#elitehealers4president

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

And this is why it will never happen, because the dev team and half the community still think the game is too hard for some reason. I think the dev team actually thinks that the presentation of stats that we have now is too complicated, and too in depth...

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The fact Yoshi outright said he wants to simplify stats going into Stormblood only drives home that very assumption. Unfortunately, they seem to believe making the game easier will abruptly fix comp meta when it's far more likely to have groups dig in their heels. White Mage suffers right now because it's entirely too basic and one dimensional. Why bring a dedicated healing job when the other two can heal just as efficiency relative to the outgoing damage and provide vastly superior utility? Funny enough, PvP is almost like night and day. I love healing in PvP because it demands I play my role not a hybrid DPS. I primarily heal and provide crowd control support whenever possible. And that healing is incredibly frequent more often than not. That said, I don't dislike Cleric Stance; quite the opposite. I simply don't love how we spend so much time in it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I love healing in PvP because it demands I play my role not a hybrid DPS. I primarily heal and provide crowd control support whenever possible. And that healing is incredibly frequent more often than not. That said, I don't dislike Cleric Stance; quite the opposite. I simply don't love how we spend so much time in it.

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I can agree with this, though PVP and PVE are essentially apples and oranges when it comes to design, I do think more can be done in terms of intances to make healers feel more valuable.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I don't dislike Cleric Stance; quite the opposite. I simply don't love how we spend so much time in it.

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This is my dilemma with Cleric Stance as well. I want to heal more not DPS more as an healer main. While I do like DPSing on my healer, I feel like I am more in Cleric Stance than not and it just brings me down. I actually decided to changed mains because of that as well. I hope they somehow fix that.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

We don't know Fey personally like you might.

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I would like evidence here of both my terrible attitude towrds my group and also why you say that I played with them In a9 after I left the group this is completely untrue. and as for being a 'terrible' healer why did you say I was probably a decent one in another post? What did I do to you that makes you derrogate my performance so much and make up things about what actually happened? I wasnt even nasty to anyone and though I correct people here in no way have I intended to be hostile even if it came across that way that can be due to mis perception in chat. I havent personally derrogated anyone here and if I have then show me. Im so surprised at you though because you are in such a good and respected position in thegame as you are one of top players who could do so much good for people , instead you decide to pick on someone in a weak position. Shame that. Tell you what its no use trying to even reason with you people alot of you just want to bully those in the minority if they think or do anything that you dont like( this is some of you not all )I stand by the poor healers that get slated in these threads for wanting to heal its only me who is doing so . At least you cant say tha tI havent stood up to some of your forceful views on healer dps meta

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Originally Posted by CuteWhisper

This is my dilemma with Cleric Stance as well. I want to heal more not DPS more as an healer main. While I do like DPSing on my healer, I feel like I am more in Cleric Stance than not and it just brings me down. I actually decided to changed mains because of that as well. I hope they somehow fix that.

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Because of the dilemma of simply increasing damage in fights causing issues for less skilled healers simply not being able to clear content the only alternative I can think of is to greatly reduced the potency of HoT spells and pet healing.

This would greatly reduce the DPS windows for healers while causing an increase in MP consumption, further reducing DPS uptime.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I would like evidence here of both my terrible attitude towrds my group and also why you say that I played with them In a9 after I left the group this is completely untrue.

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So because you said the players that only let you attempt being able to DPS a couple times in A9 Story Mode are on you logs.

A9 Story Stuffs Nov 2

Which is, outside of a couple people that were switched in/out of the group the core of the group that you started with on Oct 20th and ended with on Nov 6th.

Oct 20

Nov 6th

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and as for being a 'terrible' healer why did you say I was probably a decent one in another post? What did I do to you that makes you derrogate my performance so much and make up things about what actually happened?

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Like I said, I have no idea how you are now at healing, but at the time (based on the Logs and timeline you gave) of this issue with this group that kind of started all this drama your healing on SCH was not great.

By the 130th or so attempt at A9S you did reduce the number of Succor you cast (6 in 3 minutes), which is very MP intensive to use in a fight with so little AOE damage outside of Acid Rain.

Compared to some of the first attempts on Oct 20th which was 17 casts of Succor in 3 minutes, so there was an improvement over 100+ attempts. But there are only 2 acid rains in that time frame and Succor at least without Emergency Tactics is not efficient for single target healing even when the adds are out.

Using Rouse on the pet is a very useful skill.

I think it was one of the clears that I mentioned a while back with excessive use of Succor Nov 2nd. 20 casts of Succor with 97% Galvanize uptime. That means the buff was up and then refreshed before falling off for 97% of the fight so for that timeframe no one took any damage to even allow the buff to fall off. The Bishop Turret was also Promoted 3 times in that fight for MP recovery even with 0 player deaths.

Nov 6th attempt

Oct 20th attempts

Nov 2 Clear

Please don't feel like I'm shaming you, especially because that was so long ago and you don't even play SCH anymore. I will admit that I'm a pretty decent SCH and because I know all the ins and outs of the class I know what I'm looking for on SCH healing:

- Using Rouse to increase the Fairy healing potency by 40%
- Using Galvanize Shields for damage mitigation -> meaning having shields up just prior to AOE unavoidable damage or Tank busters.
- Using Aetherflow stacks for free healing/mitigation skills
- Using Aetherflow for MP recovery
- Emergency Tactics, Deployment Tactics for strong mitigation or AOE healing
- MP efficiency - Succor for mitigation unless used with Emergency Tactics. Using Adlo for mitigation and not healing when Galvanize is already active.
- Use of Sacred Soil as Mitigation
- Timed use of Virus as Mitigation

That is the start of a list of things missing from SCH in your logs simply from a healing perspective, which didn't even touch on true optimization or fitting in DPS. Some of which is level 50 stuff and some of which is level 60 stuff, without stepping into a Raid setting.

So the reason I said you were not a good healer then is because of the lack of or complete mis-use of the the SCH healing toolkit.

So with all that and how that group kept with you for so long and how you are now here shaming them for community toxicity, that is how I came to the conclusion that you had a terrible attitude toward that group.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

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You dont know all facts of that group and I really give up with it tbh. It was a casual group, Im a casual player that loved healing on sch and got clears so I was happy. After kick I then was talked into joining a hard core group from a recommendation of a friend that helped me cos he was disgusted what the group did .. as he was one of the members. I just like playing being relaxed. I dont want that pressure but still enjoy clearing stuff. Its more that pressure of trying to play optimally and your not built for it which I kick against and not just me. Im end game too what do people like me do if I cant progress cos noone wants sub optimal in their groups. No dps means less pressure to be so. But Im sorry if advocation of that takes it away from you. Tbh i nvr dpsed with the group that kicked me cos i hadnt learned it then so that group logs may have been my new static id have to see who was in it to know cos did so much a9s round then. Just looked we are all in thesame kind of social group so yes different people and some were traing and some were from 'mother' static as was called so yes some times we were with more experienced players. But one thing I dont understand is that I didnt know how to properly dps while still with that group so I must have tried while still there which explain why I didnt know to shadow flare etc. My dps would probably have much higher numbers now. Btw I wasnt taught how to dps in that group though does explain but see dont have fflogs so couldnt remember . I just thought that story mode practice was after I left. One of the guys left withe me yes cos he probably felt disgusted with the group for not even showing me how to dps sch then kicking me for not knowing. And he wasnt a close friend so it wasnt like auto stick up for me. but whatever it doesnt matter now. I have to say pulling people's performnce down maybe a way to help them them to play better bu to some that are underconfident it can have a more detrimental effect like ' I may as well not' try to play' for want of better words. Depends how its done I guess like publically? but as you state to me in a direct manner Im doing the same. We are not in the army here and some arnt built for it.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

And this is why it will never happen, because the dev team and half the community still think the game is too hard for some reason. I think the dev team actually thinks that the presentation of stats that we have now is too complicated, and too in depth...

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To be clear, I don't mean "too easy" in the sense that its always forgiving; it's often quite the opposite of that, hence it feeling so mechanical (sometimes even borderline tedious) in what fights do present challenge. I just mean there's not enough... there. There's little to interact with. We just have varying number value inputs towards the same, single-layered metric. Our only tactical concern is generally desync, which tends to boil down to an opener and then letting the pieces fall where they will and thereafter hitting most CDs as soon they come up (apart from certain exceptions like SMN and MCH). Burst requirements are minimal because there's no advantage given for dealing damage, so long as any given add or phase completes in time not to wipe the group or drain all healer/tank reserves (CDs and/or mana). Were there just some mechanics working beneath it all, such as the ability to suppress, interrupt, knock back, or "stagger" enemies through damage (or some weapon- and/or skill-based multiplier thereof), or some actual differences between each element, there'd be so much more we could contribute to when filling long-term goals, allowing for far more windows and points of interaction.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You dont know all facts of that group

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This really goes back to my earlier point and what I suspected was a big part of the issue here.

Being all hyper defensive and unwilling to take input even if it does come across as being a bit harsh is going to make things a LOT harder for both you and your group. You can deny it all you want, but Judge just presented an absolutely solid argument along with irrefutable data to back up his observations.

I can tell you from first hand experience that the majority of groups will value a healer that is easy to work with, willing to put their hands up to their own mistakes and failings and is able to listen without taking offence to everything. Remember that at the end of the day, progression raiding is effectively chucking 8 egos into a pressure cooker so of course things might appear to get a bit heated. Learn to look beyond the red mist and find the nuggets of value within or you really are going to struggle.

As it is right now, I suspect you are a lot harder to raid with than you realise, sorry :(

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This really goes back to my earlier point and what I suspected was a big part of the issue here

As it is right now, I suspect you are a lot harder to raid with than you realise, sorry :(

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Sorry for saying so but the oposite is true of my character tbh I dont actually think that my worst enemies (If I have any ) C ould ever describe me as you have. The ones that know me that is. However my words are taken on here . I have a group and one that Ive been in a few months now, and I dont think they think that either. Forgive me for saying but you cant assess someone accurately on here and shouldnt really asume the worst. I can sort of make allowances for people believing what they want to though. But Im actually quite shy , quiet and polite, and do what people ask to the best of my ability. Also just a point I ve seen some hyper defensiveness here too. but really you shouldnt make judgements( not being hostile btw) Think you could say Im direct and words can come across differently than how you intend. Please dont make this post about me. I keep trying to go back to the subject then keep getting these personal assessments and not sure why, but dont try to tell me as its not relevant on here. I dont need a character reference to post here :) I dont come here to be 'liked' either I came gere to give my opinion on healer dps and because Im direct I will say what I think about it 'liked or not' Also there is a difference between allowing a person to be a person or completely shattering what little confidence they have in the game, their abilities or value. Constructive help advice i can take and the reciprocant can normally tell whether trying to destroy them or not. Wouldnt say judge was (good name that) but in an effort to either teach me what I should know or destroy me Im not sure of the motive tbh If its the first one, which Id rather think it was just to point out that some people would like advice given in a more encouraging way

How is this thread still going on? You play a SCH. If you can't DPS while playing that class, you are not playing right. Feelings aside, you have time as a SCH to DPS in ANY CONTENT. If you can't, don't be mad and take it out on others. Work on getting better.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

How is this thread still going on? You play a SCH. If you can't DPS while playing that class, you are not playing right. Feelings aside, you have time as a SCH to DPS in ANY CONTENT. If you can't, don't be mad and take it out on others. Work on getting better.

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Generally speaking it's not the healer that's getting mad.

Your first priority is healing and when you have nothing to do you can help with dps. At least this is what the Novice healer tutorial tells you.
Of corse getting at higher levels you will have more experience to know when to heal and when to dps.

Good tank and party will give you minimum healing time and more dps time. If you still don't take that time to dps and just follow the party around then you are getting carried by the party.

Bad party on the other hand, you'll be healing most of the time and much less time to dps. In this case you are the one carrying the party.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

How is this thread still going on? You play a SCH. If you can't DPS while playing that class, you are not playing right. Feelings aside, you have time as a SCH to DPS in ANY CONTENT. If you can't, don't be mad and take it out on others. Work on getting better.

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I have to sort of disagree here please forgive my comment if it comes across wrong but was taught to crtically analize statements, as you do in education and may be why I come across the way I do. So pushing that aside, who says there is a 'right' or ' wrong' way to play a sch? If you heal with it, make a clear and you acheive your objective, and that is healing , and since a scholar is a healer does it really matter? So you may clear 2 minutes faster if you dps, what is 2 minutes in the grand scheme of things? Who put this idea of right and wrong way anyway? Plus if Im doing the content in my situation and i dont have space surely its me that knows wether I have the space or not. Apart from that, you cant really dictate how anyone shoul play a class or even wether the person wants to be optional or not. No one disagrees that you can be optimal with dps but theres no right or wrong about playing a class

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Your first priority is healing and when you have nothing to do you can help with dps. At least this is what the Novice healer tutorial tells you.

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Yes I agree that if the group needs healing more then you do have less time and if people take damage constantly then there is no time and I have experienced not having the time in alot of instances, like not even the time it takes to go in and out of cleric, hardly time to put a load of dots on (cast time) So you can just sit in cleric before your cds come up, and in some cases no mana left after rezing twice. Thie situation where you do have space is where the group is optimum as well maybe but theres not that many optimal groups. Especially random ones like dunscaith. I may start in cleric, as has happened tank gets one shotted within about 3 seconds then you can rez, then someone dies to aoe, then people get doom etc etc

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

Also, yeah you can have only dots rolling and hit the 80th. My co-healer has recently been solo healing A12S on our sales runs, and just through dot reapplication and the odd malefic he's able to hit 75-85th. Swiss cheese man

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Even strictly talking about savage not everyone is "main scholar", some have switched from other healers, cause the group asked them to (me) and others have switched, cause "dd are easier to find". I also don't get why you say only dots are needed for 80th and then admit he did use malefic sometimes, because if you wanted to proof your point thats an odd way to do it, since your "and the odd malefic" comment proves mine instead. Also as you know healer dmg depends a lot on the group, especially tanks you are playing with. Shouldn't be used as an excuse ofc

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Originally Posted by Feyona

So you may clear 2 minutes faster if you dps, what is 2 minutes in the grand scheme of things?

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In two minutes (more or less; depends on group) anything or nothing can happen (from wipe to disconnect, more incoming damage that must be healed, annoying mechanics, etc... but it's always a longer run :) ) Why force something unwritten because someone is unwilling to put some effort in the healer job?!