Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

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I don't know many openers, but if you look up Krietor's "600 skillspeed opener" I parse 1300 using that opener with disembowel. With my own opener I get much much less.

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Originally Posted by aabe

http://pastebin.com/uKxBsrCd

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wm straight shot+blood letter is stronger than auto+wm off straight shot/bloodletter

you don't factor in iad2; which either doesn't affect autos, or it does, but their base potency is lower. anyway, its easy to see that minuet off raw sidewinder/2x blunt arrow (100 potency) is about 20% stronger than 1 auto

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

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NO WM: Swing 1: AA445+BL813+SS719=1977, Swing 2: 451+762+738=1951, Swing 3: 448+813+763=2024, Swing 4: 423+821+726=1961

WM: Swing 1: 1069+954=2023, Swing 2: 1019+946=1965 Swing 3: 1027+933=1960 Swing 4: 1060+976=2036

Looks like they're the same at best, with WM being favored for a higher curve on damage range, though I don't really have much of a control group lol
Thanks though, somehow I didn't consider that at all and buff/crit scaling widen the gap.

I really think they let the Bard (and machinist) classes down by adding movement restrictions. There must have been a better way to buff the class without adding an entirely new play style.

On Moogle server, at least, its created a bit of a gap in bard numbers. I regularly see posts on PF advirtising to fill the support role that now, seemingly no one but the dedicated few, are playing.

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Originally Posted by Farendol

I really think they let the Bard (and machinist) classes down by adding movement restrictions. There must have been a better way to buff the class without adding an entirely new play style.

On Moogle server, at least, its created a bit of a gap in bard numbers. I regularly see posts on PF advirtising to fill the support role that now, seemingly no one but the dedicated few, are playing.

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/raises hand :P

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Originally Posted by Farendol

I really think they let the Bard (and machinist) classes down by adding movement restrictions. There must have been a better way to buff the class without adding an entirely new play style.

On Moogle server, at least, its created a bit of a gap in bard numbers. I regularly see posts on PF advirtising to fill the support role that now, seemingly no one but the dedicated few, are playing.

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I'm sure I've said it before, but given that other than T11 and maybe one other instance where I HAD to stay on the move throughout the fight, there's never been reason I needed to move around that much. The freedom is nice, yes, but necessary? No. When you add to that the fact that you can still move within the last .30 sec of a cast freely without interrupting your attack, movement is still possible, albeit not constant. This is something I'd done as both a WHM and BLM who have longer cast times too.

By now, someone somewhere is thinking "yes yes, that's been said, whatever", fact is, having level MCH to 60 and casually getting BRD to 54 (just got Empyrial Arrow and fell in love all over again) I've tested each and every new skill, and my ability to use it smoothly, and I've done exactly that. I'm not saying Minuet doesn't have its clunky moments, but it's not so unusable or game-changing for someone that didn't waste movement before. If anything, it's a reward for being adaptable, and I'm grateful for it.

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Originally Posted by aabe

NO WM: Swing 1: AA445+BL813+SS719=1977, Swing 2: 451+762+738=1951, Swing 3: 448+813+763=2024, Swing 4: 423+821+726=1961

WM: Swing 1: 1069+954=2023, Swing 2: 1019+946=1965 Swing 3: 1027+933=1960 Swing 4: 1060+976=2036

Looks like they're the same at best, with WM being favored for a higher curve on damage range, though I don't really have much of a control group lol
Thanks though, somehow I didn't consider that at all and buff/crit scaling widen the gap.

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the potency difference is really minor. but again, with how buff scaling is multiplicative, with bfb/he (and rs if you use that opener) at the start, it amplifies the effectiveness of WM a bit more. anyway assuming autos are 100 potency after/not affected by IAD2 these are what the numbers in potency roughly look like

no wm

100 auto+180 bloodletter+168 straight=448

wm

234 bloodletter+218 straight=452.4


no wm with bfb (+10%) and he (+15%~ estimate)

126.5 auto+227.7 bloodletter+212.52 straight=566.72

wm with bfb and he

296.01 bloodletter+276.276 straight=572.286

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I'm sure I've said it before, but given that other than T11 and maybe one other instance where I HAD to stay on the move throughout the fight, there's never been reason I needed to move around that much. The freedom is nice, yes, but necessary? No.

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As I've said, mobility is nice when wanting to set up Straight Shot's buff and your DoTs while getting into position (I don't stack near casters and heals, specially in fights with targeted telegraphs). Not to mention WM means bye bye multi-dotting (too much time spent casting that over attacking the focus target), which BRDs are more dependent on for BL procs (which aren't efficiently weaved in because those cast bars won't let you use off-GCD skills). The mob moving and you having to reposition and being able to refresh buffs/DoTs on the move while getting into position again (like you've been able to for 51 levels) is also gone. It sounds like minor stuff, but it does affect the flow of the job's gameplay.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

What if they changed your precious melee class to a class who's skill have cast time?

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I liked the concept of Rage Of Halone in 1.18 where the damage increased the more damage you took during casting time.

Now, with tankbusters, it could be devastating :D

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I liked the concept of Rage Of Halone in 1.18 where the damage increased the more damage you took during casting time.

Now, with tankbusters, it could be devastating :D

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hahaha , it was called rage of halone for something ;)

i would love to the get back decoy or quickstride (speed buff back then , now could be changed to letting the bard cast while moving :o ) and remove wardens paean for it

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Not to mention WM means bye bye multi-dotting (too much time spent casting that over attacking the focus target)

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Sorry, maybe I'm missing a situational context here, but there's no difference in multi-dotting now if you don't have to move. With or without WM, you couldn't cast more than one DoT per GCD, so you'd always spend 5 (minus skill speed) seconds applying your two DoTs to another target.

At best, you may be missing 3 seconds' worth of not being able to shoot OGCDs at the focus target if you swapped between the alternate targets to shoot a DoT, then back to focus target until GCD was up, then back to alt target for the second DoT.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

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Yeah, I disagree with what you're quoting too, bye-bye multidot is not a thing AT ALL

If you want the best DPS you want to be gunning out the highest potency possible for that gcd, if an extra dot is applicable you are gaining a LOT of damage just from the dot alone nevermind procs.
If anything it's better now, for sustained multidotting you aren't burning nearly as much TP and you're spending less GCDs to keep multidots up.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Sorry, maybe I'm missing a situational context here, but there's no difference in multi-dotting now if you don't have to move. With or without WM, you couldn't cast more than one DoT per GCD, so you'd always spend 5 (minus skill speed) seconds applying your two DoTs to another target.

At best, you may be missing 3 seconds' worth of not being able to shoot OGCDs at the focus target if you swapped between the alternate targets to shoot a DoT, then back to focus target until GCD was up, then back to alt target for the second DoT.

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Again, it seems like minor stuff, but still makes a difference. Considering it feels long on MCH (which only has one buff and one DoT to maintain), it's worse on BRD with 2 DoTs and a buff.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Again, it seems like minor stuff, but still makes a difference. Considering it feels long on MCH (which only has one buff and one DoT to maintain), it's worse on BRD with 2 DoTs and a buff.

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Well I mean, in your argument, teeeechnically it takes "longer" to multidot, because it takes a 1.5 second cast before your dot applies, but if you're going to multidot while there is a specific target that needs to be focused, the time it takes is the same.

I said it earlier in the thread but it's basically what aiselia said. There ISN'T a difference compared to before, whether or not you have a cast time, as long as your GCD is longer than your cast time it is the same.

WM off WB -> VB will take you 5 seconds. WM on WB -> VB will take you 5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Again, it seems like minor stuff, but still makes a difference. Considering it feels long on MCH (which only has one buff and one DoT to maintain), it's worse on BRD with 2 DoTs and a buff.

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Practically speaking, it's still the same output since you only ever use 1 weapon skill every 2.5 seconds regardless of cast time or not. It's just not a very fun or engaging way to do so (like SMN mutli dotting without bane). Then there's trying to use up them procs...

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Originally Posted by aabe

Well I mean, in your argument, teeeechnically it takes "longer" to multidot, because it takes a 1.5 second cast before your dot applies, but if you're going to multidot while there is a specific target that needs to be focused, the time it takes is the same.

I said it earlier in the thread but it's basically what aiselia said. There ISN'T a difference compared to before, whether or not you have a cast time, as long as your GCD is longer than your cast time it is the same.

WM off WB -> VB will take you 5 seconds. WM on WB -> VB will take you 5 seconds.

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His argument is also talking into context of multi dotting on the move. And it's just me, cycling through target through target to mutli dot with cast times just feels wrong and unengaging until it's all finally set up. let alone trying to use up all the RoD resets as they come up as well.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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There isn't really multidotting on the move tho outside of dungeons so I assumed they weren't making that argument

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Originally Posted by aabe

There isn't really multidotting on the move tho outside of dungeons so I assumed they weren't making that argument

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When we're speaking for a playstyle perspective, I'd like to include all aspects of the game, not just one area like raiding. And he did specifically mention mutlidotting on the go.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

... The mob moving and you having to reposition and being able to refresh buffs/DoTs on the move while getting into position again (like you've been able to for 51 levels) is also gone. It sounds like minor stuff, but it does affect the flow of the job's gameplay.

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I'm begrudgingly playing bard in A2S since foe reqiuem is much more versatile, flexibile and signifcantly boosts our summoner's AoE dps than what hypercharge can do. When I try to multi dot all the enemies, it's just not the same pacing for me due to the cast times preventing the use of oGCDs, and somehing that I liked doing was cycling through the enemnity list, use BL and auto attack on my primary target, then swap back down to cycling the list for my multi-dotting. Again, it's my perspective, but it's one aspect that I liked about bard and I can't really enjoy it as much because of the way WM was implemented onto them.

Here is a dungeon question. I was running Fractal Continuum for my expert, and the tank mentioned I should be 3 shotting all the adds that spawn for the last boss. I can 2-3 shot when bloodletter and EA are up for first mob, but for every mob? I don't think I can with heavy shot and straight shot alone when everything else is on cd. Or am I doing something wrong here?

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

Here is a dungeon question. I was running Fractal Continuum for my expert, and the tank mentioned I should be 3 shotting all the adds that spawn for the last boss. I can 2-3 shot when bloodletter and EA are up for first mob, but for every mob? I don't think I can with heavy shot and straight shot alone when everything else is on cd. Or am I doing something wrong here?

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He might be hyperboling it. The adds should die relatively fast, before they make their first step.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

He might be hyperboling it. The adds should die relatively fast, before they make their first step.

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I can do that for first mob with just me on it. Sometimes the add gets to second step before I kill it due to mechanics.

wrong post*****

So I just hit 50 and haven't got to this yet but I can't say I'm looking forward to it.

Honestly, I'd rather do less dps than something that stands and cast, but be able to shoot instantly and move around without interruption than stand and cast with more dps. It's why I took this class to 50 and not BLM.

I'll do less dps anyway because i'll have to stop casting to move out of these insta-kill aoe's which are constant and annoying.

just hit 60 today. my last "main" was a blm, followed by mch (raid needed) and then i fell in love with bard.

everyone keeps talking about how the change has turned a bard into a black mage

the following is my opinion, but this is 115% incorrect. They feel NOTHING alike. a black mage truely is 100% immobile. 99% of your rotation is done while casting, re-positioning is almost always a DPS loss and the slight times that you can move are procs, then you need to have the proc up at a certain time in your rotation. your rotation is very tight, meaning a slight movement doesnt just equal "oh i canceled a spell" it is often roughly the equivalent of both your DoTs dropping and not being able to put them back up for the next minute.

conversely a bard can usually move for 1s every 2.5s (more as it lets you move before you finish your cast). the only real tight part of the rotation movement can screw you on is iron jaws. even with WM up i feel extremely mobile, then something crazy, i can sacrifice some DPS and move 100% of the time till i feel its safe to stop again, vs my black mage which loses close to 80% of his DPS if i to keep mobile.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Honestly, I'd rather do less dps than something that stands and cast, but be able to shoot instantly and move around without interruption than stand and cast with more dps. It's why I took this class to 50 and not BLM.

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Why people would "choose to do less dps" makes absolutely no sense to me. This game has significantly harder mechanics for dps than pretty much any mom i have played, and you are already punished enough for not being perfect on some classes.

Being able to run around and shoot is fantastic. But the makers of this game decided that it was time for bards to do damage equal to other classes, and the trade off is that bards get the same weaknesses as casters. Unfortunately there are a lot of bards that don't like the change because it raises the difficulty level on the class significantly.

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Originally Posted by Shunye

Being able to run around and shoot is fantastic. But the makers of this game decided that it was time for bards to do damage equal to other classes, and the trade off is that bards get the same weaknesses as casters.

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I thought BRDs and MCH were parsing at the same discrepancy BRD had during ARR compared "pure" DPS. If the idea was to increase BRD DPS, they already done goofed there. Even then, the increase in DPS doesn't justify what the developers have implemented (specially considering bows already have relatively poor damage scaling).

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Unfortunately there are a lot of bards that don't like the change because it raises the difficulty level on the class significantly.

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This has nothing to do with difficulty, since ability-wise BRD didn't get anything too altering (WM notwithstanding). Flow of gameplay is different than what it was at 50 and to make matters worse it inserted an element some people purposely rolled archer to avoid.

It's kind of like, if you want to tank and want timers to manage + active mitigation, you're going to roll WAR. If you want to tank and like straightforward gameplay, you're going to roll PLD. WAR players would be angry if they turned it into PLD, and likewise PLD players would get angry if they were suddenly saddled with stuff that drove them away from WAR.

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Originally Posted by Shunye

Being able to run around and shoot is fantastic. But the makers of this game decided that it was time for bards to do damage equal to other classes, and the trade off is that bards get the same weaknesses as casters. Unfortunately there are a lot of bards that don't like the change because it raises the difficulty level on the class significantly.

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WM/GB does not increase their dps to be higher than it was in 2.0, relatively speaking compared to other classes. All classes are balanced around 3.0 DPS thorugh adding an extra layer of skill utilization whether it's maintaining buff uptime or an additional stacks... or imo lack of thereof for MCH/BRD.

They could have done better with the implementation for new skills for BRD espesically, but instead they opt out for WM, which seems while it's sound in concept, it doesn't work too well with bard animations in general or their 2.0 toolkit, it is extremely lack luster (their "extra skill layer" is standing still whereas other classes get more timers, stacks to manage etc), especially when you consider the fact they also gave it to MCH.

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Originally Posted by xyaie

conversely a bard can usually move for 1s every 2.5s (more as it lets you move before you finish your cast). the only real tight part of the rotation movement can screw you on is iron jaws. even with WM up i feel extremely mobile, then something crazy, i can sacrifice some DPS and move 100% of the time till i feel its safe to stop again, vs my black mage which loses close to 80% of his DPS if i to keep mobile.

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Completely agree. My Bard is about to hit 58 but coming from a player who mains mages - stutter stepping on a 1.5s cast is piss easy.

I've put a good amount of time into BRD, BLM, and SMN, both at 50 and 60. BRD mobility at 60 feels similar to BLM at 50 - moving can cost you DPS, but you have ways to mitigate that loss. SMN 60 feels even better, losing little to no DPS from occasional movement. WM definitely makes BRD feel more like a caster, it's just not as bad as 60 BLM (no coincidence that a lot of BLMs are unhappy, too). If you picked BRD because it wasn't a caster, you have every right to be upset.

I think a good compromise would be a straight DPS increase for BRD. Make WM a toggle between a full DPS class and the "lower DPS but more mobile" BRD of old. Having to sacrifice mobility to still lag behind other DPS classes just feels like crap. I wouldn't even mind if WM were exclusive with other songs in that case, as long as it feels like we get something out of it instead of giving up something to be just as good as we were at 50.

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Originally Posted by Misery1337

Okay so imagine this all you BLMs out there. Imagine if all your cast times from every skill were removed, you could freely move or even jump around the entire arena while casting ANY spell at your disposal instantly. Would you be happy? Yes? I thought so, now imagine all that happiness...are you imagining it now? Good! Imagine the same level of anger and frustration and that is what us Bards are feeling at the moment.

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New job: bow mage

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Originally Posted by Shunye

Why people would "choose to do less dps" makes absolutely no sense to me. This game has significantly harder mechanics for dps than pretty much any mom i have played, and you are already punished enough for not being perfect on some classes.

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Well, its because choosing a job is more about being able to do all these mechanics and content while enjoying yourself fully in said job. If the job itself puts people in an uncomfortable spot due to its own mechanics then they will probably not enjoy the content and more often than not making people change job.

Personally, I think Bard feels very clunky now. Yes, it can do plenty of DPS, do all the content and whatnot, I will not deny that. There are people that love it, there are those that do not as we can plainly read in this very board. I would have preferred more interesting song choices for Bard in the expansion. I still dream of the day we get Life's Anthem and Heroes March. Heck, even making it so that new songs require you to sit still while you sing it would have been perfect.

Oh well, doubt they will change it back. Its either grow to love it or change jobs at this rate.

If i had iron jaws when WM was not up, and WM had a 5ish second cooldown, everything would be amazing :)

How about an addition effect of swift song during battle under wp. Allows bard to have no cast on skills for a short period of time. And give it some reasonable recast to balance it out. ^^

Something like machinist ammo system + rapid fire.

The job is indeed very clunky and restrictive.

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

Something like machinist ammo system + rapid fire.

The job is indeed very clunky and restrictive.

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However BRD is being more used than MCH by far...I mean, BRD is clunky and restrictive, and MCH is not, but a lot of parties doing progression over Alexander Savage have BRD instead MCH. Main reasons is people know how to use BRD and MCH is new, It's easier get over mechanics with old jobs like BRD I guess.

Yeah, some people are still loyal to bard or they enjoy the current status. Some people as u said won't switch to machinist because of its unfamiliarity and being new.

However, in 2 melee composition teams machinist is more optimal. Bard is better for 2 casters team combo.

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

However, in 2 melee composition teams machinist is more optimal. Bard is better for 2 casters team combo.

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i tried both of them and enjoyed a lot more MCH gameplay.
But i choosed to stick with BRD only because DPS is more consistent (no RNG part).

But BRD is very clunky and not fun anymore.
ATM, i only play BRD because we need it for MP regen during savage progression and its a lot more difficult to find people who want to play BRD/MCH now.

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Originally Posted by Alkel

But i choosed to stick with BRD only because DPS is more consistent (no RNG part).

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I don't agree with you. MCH feels less consistent than BRD when player is "learning" MCH, when you play a lot like MCH feel how when you have bad luck and spam Split Shots like 5 o 6 times, DPS gets down a bit, but when Reload or Wildfire are ready, DPS gets up again. Bud luck like MCH is not really a big punish right now in DPS concern, but a real punish in TP management, Split Shot devours TP pretty hard.

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Originally Posted by Alkel

its a lot more difficult to find people who want to play BRD/MCH now.

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I agree totally.

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Originally Posted by Alkel

its a lot more difficult to find people who want to play BRD/MCH now.

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Pre HW you dont seen any Summoners, at the Release you had a few Warriors and at the moment you dont have much astrologians.
That normal because everyone want to join the easy-something is overpowered at the moment-train :)

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

However BRD is being more used than MCH by far...I mean, BRD is clunky and restrictive, and MCH is not, but a lot of parties doing progression over Alexander Savage have BRD instead MCH. Main reasons is people know how to use BRD and MCH is new, It's easier get over mechanics with old jobs like BRD I guess.

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It's more that Foes requiem is ten times better than any damage increase that MCH can offer. An area wide 10% (20% with battle voice) magic resist reduction is a lot better than a 5% reduction in one tiny area.

I wish they would add a new job to the game.. bow mage.

Support buffs/mp refresh/tp refresh etc

Kind of like Ranger but with casting times on abilities

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Originally Posted by LathusWHM

I wish they would add a new job to the game.. bow mage.

Support buffs/mp refresh/tp refresh etc

Kind of like Ranger but with casting times on abilities

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I'm actually hoping tonight's patch includes a ninja QoL change to bard. Because as it is, I have no desire to level. Especially now that Yoshida is considering not having 3.0 completion being a requirement for 4.0.

I may end up waiting to see what classes 4.0 holds before bothering to progress any farther. Because I find Ninja to be suffering from ability bloat and Bard is...well not what I signed on to play anymore. It's also clunky and simply not fun anymore. And none of the other classes in the game interest me.

So far Heavensward has just been a pile of rocks in my trick or treat bag instead of the delicious candy I was looking forward to.