We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

2/2:


IMO, the fact that players get as far as they do without knowing/understanding the game is MORE of a failure of the game than the player (the player isn't innocent, but the game should do a better job). Without the game being there to help foster player skill and improvement, the community would need to step in to do so.

The problem is the postmodernist hate of criticism. There's ultimately 3 issues with players that make this very difficult to overcome:

1. Players believe that advice is criticism and believe that criticism is an insult of how they play. This causes people to shut down when given advice and just see the person giving it as an "elitist"

2. Players believe that failure is some big deal. While this isn't an issue with the more difficult content, players in "normal" content seem to believe that failure is some horrible thing, and that's why normal content is so under tuned. It's also why people are so against wall 2 wall pulling because "What if we wipe?" You're not going to die in real life, you respawn and go again.

3. Players don't want to improve, they don't want to put effort in, they just want to jump in and "have fun." The problem is that you're in a game with other people and there's an expectation for you to perform for those other people. You can't leech.

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(Before the numbers): i agree with this. The game is made with a different amount of exp given as each expansion comes. So, mid content (which was "last top content" in the past) gives more exp than before allowing the char to level faster than before. This leads to a reduced amount of repeatable content (mid content speaking). Like, how often you go t0 lv50 hard dungeons outside roulettes? How often you did that before expansions?

So, some mechanics tends to be in a blur area in ours memories leading to mistakes.

1- Like someone said, this can be aliviated choosing your words better. I always talks about what people can do to pass a mechanic or play their role better. No matter the risks. And I almost never got harsh insults but had myslef ignored at most. So, being kind is a strong weapon here :)

2- that's soooo true! Some take mid content like endgaming tryhard 20hs raiding stuff... xD Again, if we work on them, we can put things in a better mood...

3- yep, that's true. In this case, we have to adapt.

See? In pretty much all cases WE can do better to improve teams performance. And I go for that instead of just point fingers :)

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Basically:

If you don't want to be a team player in a team based game, go play with Trusts.

But a lot people don't do that because trusts take longer. Trusts take longer because the trusts are programmed to not do as much damage as players. It's the exact same way as people who aren't playing at a moderate level. If you can't even do as much damage as a Trust NPC, something that is SPECIFICALLY programmed to do lower dps, that's a YOU problem (general "you", not you specifically Merrigan) that you need to work on.

And yes, I've had runs in 80+ content take longer than a Trust would have taken.

It's a bit harsh to say that, but it's reality, something a lot of players need a healthy dose of.

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It's not harsh, though?

Anyway, to add another thing: there is another option than the "trust" system, that is to play with your FC. With people who agree with your way of playing.

As soon as you enter a team, you implicitly accept its rules. And among these, the rules that are common sense, i.e. to make efforts concerning your teammates. Whether it's in terms of dps, general rhythm or whatever. Which leads me to answer this:

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I dont understand the self importance one must have to queue up for a roulette with 3 or more random other people, with any expectation what-so-ever.

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Look in the mirror, will you? What is arrogant is not having expectations; it is thinking that you can do absolutely anything you want when you fall in a random team with three strangers.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

You are talking to the person who would be that tank.

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Assuming you mean 4 man content, I pray you were booted fast.

The problem of your argumemt is, it works in only in a space without the need of any skill what's so ever. This is for an MMO not true. The baseline is simple the mechs the dev's put into the instance you queue for. They expect you to be able to clear normal content and this is the baseline. And AGAIN calling names or saying "you are this or that " is not an argument at all. It is an personal attack.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I have to wonder, is it really the player who isn't doing enough (to you) dps's problem? The game doesn't punish them, in fact, it defends them against people being toxic towards them. So whos problem is it exactly? What "reality" is it really?

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Sorry for the double post, but two little things:

1. Yes, regarding the dps it's definitely the player's fault. The game doesn't help (a player before me has explained very well why, so I won't go back to that); but some people make absolutely no effort at all to the point of not being able to string together a single combo.

2. Please stop with this fixed idea about the evilness of the devs, who constantly defend the poor little newbies. The rules are clear on this: advice is allowed. Mockery is not. In other words, you have every right to say the following:

"Monk, if I may give you an advice, your rotation seems off. You should try to ..."

But not :


"Hey, you little shit, get off your ass".

Should we expect players that have played for 100s of hours ... doing 100s of dungeons to know basic game play of their job at level 80/90? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I have to wonder, is it really the player who isn't doing enough (to you) dps's problem? The game doesn't punish them, in fact, it defends them against people being toxic towards them. So whos problem is it exactly? What "reality" is it really?

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I mean there's a difference between toxicity and telling someone they're bad, and ideally how to improve.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

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Thank you for wording this more eloquently than I ever could! I rejoined the game a couple months before the release of EW, I had to go through ARR -- there is, at no point, up until ShB, where you are genuinely challenged or have hard steps. Yes solo duties can be difficult, but slap it on very easy and you will breeze through it. I've done it before just wanting to get through the MSQ. In duties, you can literally feel like you're contributing to your group without contributing to the group and that is the problem.

Of course there's obvious cases where you are performing so badly it affects the group. But for the most part? If you have even just one or two competent party members, you will get carried. Most of the time, no one says anything to you if you're playing suboptimally or downright wrong, so you think you're doing fine. Then finally when you get into content that you're struggling with, when someone says something for the first time, it's seen as an attack. "I've gotten through the MSQ and other duties fine up until this point, so what gives this NEET the right to yell at me for playing correctly?" sort of attitude can kick in.

I had the same issue up until Holminster's Switch. Holminster's Switch was a bit of a slap in the face for me - I used mits, but didn't use it correctly. The healer and dps there was *incredibly* patient and gave me advice, was happy to teach me a bit on how to tank so we could get through it. They could tell straight up that while I was mitting and hitting buttons, the way I was doing it was a bit jank and made it slow/hard to get through. I never knew I was even playing wrong until then and it spurred me to look up guides on how to properly play PLD and tank. I won't say I'm the best player now (because I'm not), but I'm suuuper grateful for those two people lol.

Another example of how easy difficulty drives complacency since people don't notice: A couple months ago I que'd for ARaid with a mate. Got CT, average run so far until we notice we're having regen put on us constantly. Multiple people actually. We found the person who did it. They would only move when the game prompts you to teleport to each boss, then they would cast regen. They were not a bot - they were talking and made a couple of jokes - so my mate quips with, "Wow, that's a lot of regens." Not a single response from anyone, the guy wasn't in our party so we couldn't vote kick him either.

End of the duty we check and he ended up casting regen like.. something like 500?? times I want to say, maybe 300 and casted stone like 40 times. The entire time lol.. and no one noticed at all, or if they did, didn't say a thing, because the content is just so easy to breeze through people would rather carry people like this and get through the snoozefest than say something.

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Originally Posted by Bukachu

I mean there's a difference between toxicity and telling someone they're bad, and ideally how to improve.

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To the people who do this kind of thing, the difference doesn't exist. As soon as you draw attention to their deficiencies/laziness, you're being "toxic". Then they expect you to shut up as soon as they use that word and are indignant beyond belief if you don't.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I, for one, agree. But then I guess I would. As I've said, I'm still not great at the game after eight months of playing. I DO try, but still get flustered trying to understand mechanics and work rotations, I'm still clumsy and slow to react, and it's certainly very rare that I feel that I'm asset to the teams I'm with.

Still, I love the game (particularly the MSQ) regardless of this - and it is disappointing that, judging by some of the comments made in this thread, the answer to the fact that I don't meet the unwritten 'acceptable standard' rule is that I should just quit the game.

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Heres my question: Did you ever look up a guide for any of the jobs that you play or any of the fights you struggle with?