New hrothgar hairstyles are really bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

In my case, I remember seeing bad signs that wore on my faith ever since the abysmal implementation of Eureka, that and the huge controversy at the time that Blue Mage launched as a limited job and the playerbase allowed for that word to enter and even be used in their vocabulary, when it never should have been. I remember that they somehow thought that releasing Baldesion Arsenal with its convoluted method of entry was also ok at the time-thank goodness Bozja, while imperfect, is nowhere near as bad as that was.

No amount of promises could hold up to the stacking evidence that I saw mounting up at the time, in any case it seems I was correct to be suspicious of the situation. There is no excuse for Hrothgar to be in the state that they are in now, and while Viera have had great strides they are still missing various hair options, saying nothing of how little hats work on them.

And supposedly the excuse for all this is clipping. Enough already, we do not care about clipping. We never did.

---

While I questioned those things, and made my dissatisfaction known, perhaps I didn't realize where things were headed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I agree with some of the things in your post. I had little, if any confidence that they could somehow do a beast race in this game. They did, and did it badly. Given the overwhelming preference of FFXIV's target population favoring attractive, anime-beauty standards for lack of a better description, both genders of Viera was objectively the correct choice to add rather than chasing after niche things only to do them badly.

It is said that during the fanfest when Hrothgar were revealed that the audience booed the stage. Now in 2022, everyone is collectively upset at how poorly done these new hairstyles are, nevermind that they are coming 3 years too late. Should Hrothgar players be receiving more than they currently are getting? Absolutely. But should Hrothgar have been implemented as a gender-locked, limited race at the cost of taking male Viera's spot back then? Absolutely not.

I'm not interested in entertaining conversations about what race was decided to be included first whether it was Hrothgar or Viera, what is clear is that from concept artists to 3d modelers that there is clear bias in favor of Viera. They may have decided to add Hrothgar in Stormblood, but it was Viera who was nearly added back in Heavensward. Male Viera are also the result of individual passion that was likely shared with fans-they took everything from the first post of that thread and made it reality.

Viera are the result of what these concept artists and modelers wanted to do.

Hrothgar are the result of what these concept artists and modelers were instructed to do.

However, I cannot stress this enough, there were so many people who shunned the supporters of causes like male Viera/female Hrothgar all while arguing with others to "just be patient!" in terms of waiting on new hairstyles and hat options. It is your responsibility as a customer to keep the producer of a product in check, and not argue against people who feel as if they were given an inferior product. This situation could have been avoided early on if the playerbase had made it clear that limited races with hardly any hair or hat options wasn't acceptable, and this is the result of what happens when things like that are let to slide.

---

people booed because nobody liked stormblood and the player base at the time were a collection of mai waifu nerds who only played ffxiv because it was cuter than wow and gw2. all anyone did was talk about how much they hated male roes and the (english) community mostly consisted of a million cat girls played by dudes who at the time still thought "i play a girl because don't want to stare at a man's ass all day" was peak humour. they were out for blood over just lyse alone.

it wasn't until shb and the free trial push that the community branched out and i started seeing a larger variety of people. for once it wasn't just 2.2 roe per sq malm.

they should just have another hairstyle design contest with viera and hrothgar in mind.
there are more players now, more potential artists- who are dissatisfied with what we've been presented in terms of hair designs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by juicybug

they should just have another hairstyle design contest with viera and hrothgar in mind.
there are more players now, more potential artists- who are dissatisfied with what we've been presented in terms of hair designs.

---

The more recent hairstyles we are receiving (as additions to all races throughout Shadowbringers, not the 6.1 additions to Hrothgar) are products of the last hairstyle contest. On the contrary, I would like to see more original dev team work from the same people who conceived of both male and female Viera's hairstyles, which include traditionally feminine looks for women along with very decent "fantasy" style hairs for men.

The playerbase is said to have voted on those hairs largely based on artstyle alone, the result has been 4 years of gender neutral haircuts of only passable quality.

To those who feel players are asking for too much, I respect your views, but I think there is a difference between asking for too much and simply wanting a good product. Personally, I don't think anyone here is asking for too much. From reading the thread, my understanding is that most players simply want more transparency from the developers and hairstyles that fit Hrothgar. Nobody is asking the developers' to add an unreasonable amount of hairstyles to Hrothgar, nor are they asking for them to address other limitations that Hrothgar has. People only want the developers to be more transparent and considerate of what hair options look good on Hrothgar moving forward.

It is worth noting that Hrothgar and Viera are behind a paywall (you need Shadowbringers to create a character of either race), so I don't think it is unjust for people to expect a certain quality from their purchase. As for the idea that Hrothgar and Viera are limited races, so players are unreasonable in expecting too much customization, that is fine. If the developers choose to take that approach, that is their right. However, if this is their official stance, they need to clarify it to players on official channels to make this view relevant, and players can make a more informed decision when selecting their race. I've looked and cannot find any indication in-game or where Shadowbringers is for sale about Hrothgar and Viera being limited races, so I don't think it makes sense to blame people for not knowing something and expecting customization options that are more in line with the other races when the developers don't even touch on it officially.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Denji

people booed because nobody liked stormblood and the player base at the time were a collection of mai waifu nerds who only played ffxiv because it was cuter than wow and gw2. all anyone did was talk about how much they hated male roes and the (english) community mostly consisted of a million cat girls played by dudes who at the time still thought "i play a girl because don't want to stare at a man's ass all day" was peak humour. they were out for blood over just lyse alone.

it wasn't until shb and the free trial push that the community branched out and i started seeing a larger variety of people. for once it wasn't just 2.2 roe per sq malm.

---

I've been seeing a lot more femroes the past few months, wouldn't surprise me many of them come from you-know-which-game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It is said that during the fanfest when Hrothgar were revealed that the audience booed the stage. Now in 2022, everyone is collectively upset at how poorly done these new hairstyles are, nevermind that they are coming 3 years too late. Should Hrothgar players be receiving more than they currently are getting? Absolutely. But should Hrothgar have been implemented as a gender-locked, limited race at the cost of taking male Viera's spot back then? Absolutely not.

I'm not interested in entertaining conversations about what race was decided to be included first whether it was Hrothgar or Viera, what is clear is that from concept artists to 3d modelers that there is clear bias in favor of Viera. They may have decided to add Hrothgar in Stormblood, but it was Viera who was nearly added back in Heavensward. Male Viera are also the result of individual passion that was likely shared with fans-they took everything from the first post of that thread and made it reality.

---

Adding to what Denji said above, but people booed because they wanted Male Viera.

That was all. They booed because Square only announced Female Viera, nothing else, then we spent a good while speculating what came next (with a french translation leaking Hrothgar on accident), and then fans were met with that.

Having been a Roe myself a the time, I agree with Denji. There was A LOT of disdain toward Roegadyn, and there still is. ESPECIALLY from Miqo'te players, as far as I have witnessed. But it was also because it wasn't a male counterpart to Viera, but instead a furry race. Then came the accusations that Male Viera don't exist because of Hrothgar, that Viera don't have hairstyles or headgear because Hrothgar were made. When in truth, Yoshida wanted to make Hrothgars way before and had experimented with such with the Lupine race. Something people are irritatingly quick to forget.

And something you say you don't want to discuss. But there's no discussing it when not only is it the truth, it's also brought up a lot of bile from you all. Unjustified and unwarranted bile.

True. 2% of the playerbase doesn't necessarily mean that the sentiment has grown any fonder. But I like to think it did, not just because of how Hrothgar players usually are in communities, but also from the devs making interesting NPCs that people enjoy. Specifically Runar. Regardless? The sheer support that Hrothgars are having over this topic should be enough evidence for Square to at least reconsider.

Edit: I just realized you whined that "B-But they had Viera designs before". No, they had Viera designs SINCE TACTICS ADVANCE. What they wanted was a Bestial race. And they did touch on the Vieras, hence the concept art. But you didn't even bother to stop and wonder why they didn't approve it back then. The answer? BECAUSE YOSHIDA WANTED A BESTIAL RACE. Just look at the original drafts for Au Ra. THAT'S what he wanted, and THAT'S why he discarded Viera. Don't even try, mate. You can't say "Oh they wanted Viera" when they clearly entertained the thought for one minute and then threw it in the trash. The only reason you're playing the character you're playing is specifically because people demanded it. The devs have no love for you, they only care about what brought them attention and money. And your race was what would make people open their wallets for.

No wonder you don't want to talk about it when you hallucinate half-truths like that.

Oh boy do I remember the horrible bile because we got Hrothgar instead of male Viera, I still remember all the nasty stuff that was said. Never forgetting that.

To add to my edit. Here's what people are misremembering, HARD.

It was stuff like this that Yoshida asked to include in the game.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EP_TLXiUUAAPZVl.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqvtPZmX...pg&name=medium
https://i.imgur.com/ipufbiY.jpg

He wanted a bestial race. Because he felt the game had a lot of human-like races. The major variance was just "human with cat ears".

And he wanted to deviate from it.

This is what you're clinging onto.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/5395d8e5...59447f01fa.pnj

They had considered options such as Viera but discarded it due to it being too similar to Miqo'te. He wanted a bestial race, not this. And even Au Ra weren't ultimately too bestial, because the dev team thought it was too hard and too rigid.

Viera weren't even the only ones considered.

And we have Yoshida's own statements saying that he experimented with the Lupines specifically to bring his vision of a more bestial-looking race to fruition. But that the limitations were still there. Hrothgar is the best solution he's gotten.

So if you're going to claim anything, please understand the context beforehand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Snappu

---

Daaaaaaaang

Anyway: Enough of this "They wanted viera first". Despite there being proof to suggest against that, the thread is about the god awful hairstyles and the seemingly lack of transparency

I know Im not hallucinating when during the LL in 2019, that yoshi said that there was going to be more racial hairs added down the line. Instead of letting the community speculate, they need to have their translators there with them translating this stuff. A mistranslation has caused them a 3 year headache. If you dont wanna have the translators there during the LL? Have an official blog and/or forum post of your translators doing what they do best: Translate. Also, wasn't there a Japanese player that came in and passively confirmed that what he said during the 2019 LL was what he said and not some kind of mistranslation?

Believe what you want, I do not have the time to skim through each comment that proceeded to argue about what I specifically said I had no interest in discussing further, in any case the sentiment within the 3d modeling team and concept art team towards Hrothgar either remains low, or they were so swamped with *unknown* work that Hrothgar were reduced to an afterthought. The decision to force the team to go ahead with something that it was clear they did not know how to handle, or didn't want to, is an unusual one.

Then again, it's not very passionate work that is being asked for. Players are asking for what is assumed to be the bare minimum. For a cat race to retain its ears. Just because I have little interest in say, making a sandwich when I would much rather make noodles, I would at least take the care to ensure that the sandwich has 2 slices of bread. You know, the basics. A similar concept applies here.

The excuses also cycle back to "but they are built different" - ok, so why were they built so different? Why not create a bestial looking viscerocranium/face and leave the rest of the skull normal shaped in order to accommodate hats and hairs? This would have been the most logical decision. Why was the 3d modelling team pushed towards making a model that they themselves find difficult to work with to the point where they put it off for nearly 3 years?

It's as if everything was stacked against them from the start, from the head model to choosing Roegadyn as a base-had they chosen the middle ground of the highlander build and not given them hunched backs, the aesthetic result would be pleasing to players and the technical specifications would have been less of hassle to work around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Believe what you want, I do not have the time to skim through each comment that proceeded to argue about what I specifically said I had no interest in discussing further, in any case the sentiment within the 3d modeling team and concept art team towards Hrothgar either remains low, or they were so swamped with *unknown* work that Hrothgar were reduced to an afterthought. The decision to force the team to go ahead with something that it was clear they did not know how to handle, or didn't want to, is an unusual one.

---

"Belief". Sis, if I have proof, it's not a belief like religion, it's fact. I'm not working off of second-hand sources or stupid beliefs.

Still. Thank you for proving my point. If you don't have time to read and learn, then I absolutely do not have the time to deal with your deranged bias. Good day.

I just want Viera players to know though that in the end it truly doesn't matter who came first. Chicken, egg, lion, rabbit. At the end of the day this is what we have now. And it really is on the now that we should focus on. But just... don't start spouting nonsense. And don't bring in bullshit arguments and act cocky about them. It only hurts you and your race more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akimori

Daaaaaaaang

Anyway: Enough of this "They wanted viera first". Despite there being proof to suggest against that, the thread is about the god awful hairstyles and the seemingly lack of transparency

I know Im not hallucinating when during the LL in 2019, that yoshi said that there was going to be more racial hairs added down the line. Instead of letting the community speculate, they need to have their translators there with them translating this stuff. A mistranslation has caused them a 3 year headache. If you dont wanna have the translators there during the LL? Have an official blog and/or forum post of your translators doing what they do best: Translate. Also, wasn't there a Japanese player that came in and passively confirmed that what he said during the 2019 LL was what he said and not some kind of mistranslation?

---

Speaking as a translator here, but either they'd need to go through what was said after the fact, or they need an interpreter who could convey information without it being vague or roundabout way as it's being relayed. It's not like it hurts them to actually do it anyway, their translators are more than capable.

They need to stop being so vague and be clearer and more open with information. I'd much rather them being honest than going in circles with information their own clients have disproven. And whatever the issue is, their design, philosophy, quality, whichever, should at least be stated as such. Otherwise they're feeding false hope, and then no wonder fans will be upset and demand for more all the time. If they don't want to work, then just say "We don't want to work". It's blatantly clear that fans finish it for them anyway, so might as well just embrace that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Speaking as a translator here, but either they'd need to go through what was said after the fact, or they need an interpreter who could convey information without it being vague or roundabout way as it's being relayed. It's not like it hurts them to actually do it anyway, their translators are more than capable.

They need to stop being so vague and be clearer and more open with information. I'd much rather them being honest than going in circles with information their own clients have disproven. And whatever the issue is, their design, philosophy, quality, whichever, should at least be stated as such. Otherwise they're feeding false hope, and then no wonder fans will be upset and demand for more all the time. If they don't want to work, then just say "We don't want to work". It's blatantly clear that fans finish it for them anyway, so might as well just embrace that.

---

being vague allows for more wiggle room with smaller issues which is one of the things i have just learned to expect.

however for larger issues it can blow up in your face, which is what happened hear but also compounded by the fact that they clearly didn't expect as many people to be as mad about it as they are.

still doesn't make what they've done ok, it's been multiple years of false hope now. really just slapped the community in the face since a lot of people despite not playing a hroth do NOT want to see peeled hroths with jellybeans for skulls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Midareyukki

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqvtPZmX...pg&name=medium

---

Man I love my thighlander but if female Au Ra looked like the top left I would fanta immediately and never look back.

Hi! As the devs asked us our feedback, here I'll just give mine.

My Background

First and foremost, I must say, I am a professional 3D Artist working in the game industry for more than 10 years now. I have a deep love for the Hrothgar as they are the only race that appeal to me in the game. Although I do not have the most extensive knowledge about FFXIV engine, I do feel like I understand a lot about the difficulties the devs see in making more Hrothgar Hairstyles.

The Main Problem

As I understand it, the 4 Hrothgar heads are all somewhat different and all of their ears are shaped and placed a little different on each head, this in itself is the biggest problem regarding the addition of new hairstyle. This makes it so if you want to add 1 hairstyle available to all the 4 heads, you need 4 different version of that hairstyle, this will for sure take a lot more time to develop per hairstyle. Knowing this here's my plan to turnaround this situation and "save the Hrothgar"

The proposed solutions

I'll try to make it in how I would tackle this chronologically, maybe over the course of multiple patch releases.

1. Make the original Hrothgar-only Hairstyles available to all the faces. This will require adjustments per head, but that is already a huge "quick-win" and I really don't see this as an impossibility. Time consuming, certainly more than a hyur yes, but never impossible + you save time in designing new hairstyles from scratch. This would already be a LOT more choices to all your Hrothgar players without requiring a Fantasia to choose between more than two hairstyles per head.

2. Toggle the ears back on the newly added hairstyles, the clipping issues are way less important than the actual ears. IF you have time, try to adjust them to make clipping less apparent, but this is optional, it would be another "Quick-win".

3. Once all this is done, I would try to design 1 new hairstyle specifically for Hrothgar that would be compatible with the 4 heads. The Copy paste of the other race's Hairstyle is a poor choice in my opinion as they will most likely feel off on a non-human race.

4. Moving forward, I would try to add at least 2-3 new hairstyle for Hrothgar before 7.0 that would already be a big win

Think of it
-16 Hairstyles available regardless of your head
-6 Hairstlyes (With Ears) added in 6.1
-3 new fully designed for Hrothgar before 7.0

That would take us to 25 Hairstyles to choose from regardless of your Head choice. It would be a HUGE leap in customization options compared to where we sit now.

Again, I do not know all the exact specifics of the FFXIV engine, but my professional opinion is that with only one artist dedicated to this ordeal it is totally within the realm of possibility even more so if you're lucky enough to have an artist motivated by this project.

Thank you for your time, and I pray for a quick turnaround of this sad situation for all my fellow Hrothgar <3.

P.S. : My Portrait is a Viera male because I was so disheartened yesterday that I thought about changing race, but it just didn't sit right by me, so I'm already back to Hrothgar, just my lodestone has not updated yet :P.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Midareyukki

To add to my edit. Here's what people are misremembering, HARD.

It was stuff like this that Yoshida asked to include in the game.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EP_TLXiUUAAPZVl.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqvtPZmX...pg&name=medium
https://i.imgur.com/ipufbiY.jpg

He wanted a bestial race. Because he felt the game had a lot of human-like races. The major variance was just "human with cat ears".

And he wanted to deviate from it.

This is what you're clinging onto.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/5395d8e5...59447f01fa.pnj

They had considered options such as Viera but discarded it due to it being too similar to Miqo'te. He wanted a bestial race, not this. And even Au Ra weren't ultimately too bestial, because the dev team thought it was too hard and too rigid.

Viera weren't even the only ones considered.

And we have Yoshida's own statements saying that he experimented with the Lupines specifically to bring his vision of a more bestial-looking race to fruition. But that the limitations were still there. Hrothgar is the best solution he's gotten.

So if you're going to claim anything, please understand the context beforehand.

---

Forever salty over what they did to female Au Ra. That very first concept in the top left was amazing.

For them to do a proper looking Beastial race they'll have to hire some people from South Korea.
All SE race designs are just showing lack of imagination.

But at least i know where their team spent all that time instead working on new haircuts :

https://ewwnews.com/img/in-final-fan...issa-icon.jpeg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Denji

Because unless it generates bad press (see: not being able to marry the same gender) the non-JP forums are largely ignored.

There are several examples in this thread of mods and such saying they'll "pass it along" and we never hear of it again, including stuff from 7-8 years ago.

The sad truth is that this is a Japanese game and outside of trying to nickle and dime you with the cash shop, they generally don't care.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caurcas

Reminder that NA/EU/Non-JP players are second class citizens.

---

That's a common misconception. While people here in the west always claim the devs only really listen to the JP community, the JP community says exactly the same about us. It's a common meme in the JP official forums here, that "Yoshida never listen to the demands of JP and only do what the western audience wants".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kouga

また仮にJPプレイヤーが満足していたとしても、EU等の他フォーラムのフィードバックを無視するなどということはあり得ないので、その点はご安心ください。

むしろJPプレイヤーの中からは、吉田Pは海外の声ばかり聞いていると言う声も聞かれます。

---

"And even if JP players are satisfied, there is no way they would ignore feedback from other forums such as EU.
In fact, some JP players say that YoshidaP only listens to overseas feedback."

___________

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yep, this quote is the elephant in the room. It seems a bit specific to be a horribly mistranslated? How could they have told us that we weren't originally going to get any hairs, when there is that literal quote right there.

---

No, it is not mistranslated. As you can see, that quote was from the Liveletter LIII. You can go on the forums, right here, and look up the official translation:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voltenyne

(01:51:49)
Q: I used fantasia to change to Viera and I'm enjoying it. As they're a special race and it may not be possible, but feel like the number of hairstyles available for Viera and Hrothgar is quite limited. Do you have plans to add more in the future?
A: We certainly plan on adding more, so please wait for future patches. However, it will still be race-specific, so there won’t be as many selections when compared to other races.

---

Meanwhile, little fun fact, I just noticed yet another lie from Yoshida:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voltenyne

(02:10:17)
Q: Are there plans to make it easier to tell if an attack is physical or magical?
A: I believe we answered this before, but we haven’t implemented this yet as it would delay the patches. We often make last minute balance changes, and we might have to change a physical/magical attack right before release. If we were to display this information, we’d have to change the UI whenever we make such an adjustment, which would delay the patch release. Please understand that we are not intentionally trying to hide information.

---

Well that is a fkn lie. There's a Dalamud plugin called "DamageInfo" that literally lets you choose which color magical damage has, which color physical damage has, which color unspecified damage has, and none of that has to changed on a per-attack basis on the UI. You can simply set it so ALL magical damage has a specific colour, just based on the fact that it's magic damage. So "we'd have to change the UI whenever we make such an adjustment" ist just pure bullshit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akimori

Daaaaaaaang

Anyway: Enough of this "They wanted viera first". Despite there being proof to suggest against that, the thread is about the god awful hairstyles and the seemingly lack of transparency

I know Im not hallucinating when during the LL in 2019, that yoshi said that there was going to be more racial hairs added down the line. Instead of letting the community speculate, they need to have their translators there with them translating this stuff. A mistranslation has caused them a 3 year headache. If you dont wanna have the translators there during the LL? Have an official blog and/or forum post of your translators doing what they do best: Translate. Also, wasn't there a Japanese player that came in and passively confirmed that what he said during the 2019 LL was what he said and not some kind of mistranslation?

---

It's literally what was posted on these forums, people weren't going off some vague third party translated source no one is able to find anymore.

Now this was of course after the expansion had released so while the original intent may have been to never add more hairstyles to them, I personally don't remember ever reading anything like that from an officially translated source and the LL a month or so later immediately contradicts that as well.

Over time there's also been a lot of talk about how the questions would often lump Viera and Hrothgar together even though they had very different problems that needed different solutions, and we'd get one non-specific answer so it was never really clear if it was meant for Viera, Hrothgar or both.

Your point still stands though, if they had been clear before Hrothgar came out that they had no intent or they'd be unable to add more hairstyles to them then people could have made an informed decision on playing the race or not. It would still be a strange decision to release a race with effectively 2 hairstyles per head you can't even change between without a Fantasia and then not add anything to them, but if they go back on their alleged original intent for the race a month or so later they can't act surprised people want more hair.

It seems the options now are;

A) Faster shared hairstyles with no ears.
B) Slower shared hairstyles with ears.
C) Unique racial hairstyles but fewer in number.

I don't envy them having to sift through all the feedback and having to try and make a decision that will make the most people happy, but they really kind of did it to themselves being so unclear from the start. I feel worse for Hrothgar players who for the most part waited patiently and now have to wait even longer for a solution.

I wonder if all this was communicated to the JP playerbase more clearly before release?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkfrost

That's a common misconception. While people here in the west always claim the devs only really listen to the JP community, the JP community says exactly the same about us. It's a common meme in the JP official forums here, that "Yoshida never listen to the demands of JP and only do what the western audience wants".


"And even if JP players are satisfied, there is no way they would ignore feedback from other forums such as EU.
In fact, some JP players say that YoshidaP only listens to overseas feedback."

---

So either:
A. They listen to the both forums and communities *inhales Copium*
or
B. They say f**k the feedbacks from players, they hurt our feeling anyway, we do what we want!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rathmir

Heh, thanks for linking. As said, it just were some quick and simple tests by people with lingering in crowded places, and use a mod to turn all player races into one race of choice only. For a full proof, there are far more samples with several configurations needed, if the effect can be replicated anytime.

---

OK. :)

But it is so, that raw polygon counts do not necessarily correlate with frames per second. Because the game engines and the GPUs and the GPU drivers have also some optimization mechanisms to exclude non-visible parts of a scene from computation. And it can be, that those mechanisms work better with many Hrothgars than with many Bunnies. The result is, you get slightly more FPS with Hrothgars.



Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caramen

So either:
A. They listen to the both forums and communities *inhales Copium*
or
B. They say f**k the feedbacks from players, they hurt our feeling anyway, we do what we want!

---

Considering they specifically said for multiple topics that we should write our feedback into this forum, I don't think they say "f**k the feedbacks". And they wouldn't have done a bigger statement in a patch reading about this (or the samurai changes or..) that were discussed in the community either. However, giving feedback to any topic today doesn't lead to stuff being in the game tomorrow. (Obviously waiting 3 years for any sort of change or message whatsoever is way too long, but I am speaking about the general process here). Regardless, community feedback from the forum still has to be translated at times, transported to the right department, the department has to talk about it and make decisions, inform/work with other departments to make X happen and then have to pass it to QA for testing, being passed back for bug fixing, being tested again until it is finally considered ready and can be implemented in the game. How long this takes and if all steps are needed depends on the issue. Adding language options to the Adventurer Plate takes less long than reworking a character model or hairstyle. But most of the time when I read this take that the devs only listen to the other side, whichever it is, and it is not about something like the Hrothgar hair situation, I feel like some people are just super impatient or have a lack of understanding why a change that seems easy isn't actually easy enough to be up next day.

What would help would be a lot more communication along the way, the community managers seem to be awfully silent. I know from being a moderator for a forum for a much smaller company that their hands are often extremely tied and often have to wait for confirmation from "above" before they are allowed to comment on a topic. But just telling people "We hear you, all of you, collecting feedback from players in multiple languages just takes a lot of time" would go a long way, or telling us where in the part of the process I mentioned they are etc. Please, Community Managers, work on your community managing!

What absolutely does not help is being adamant about this "us vs. them" and stating "the team only listens to Japanese/English people" over and over again without actually knowing if this is true. It just makes the big cultural gap even larger and just hinders actual progress and giving constructive feedback. I found it very sweet that some Japanese players came over "here" and shared with us their feedback and support via texts translated with google translate or deepl. And from what I could read not everyone over "there" in the Japanese area was super p*ssed about English speaking people doing the same. At the end of the day we all want the same thing, artificially divinding the community with rumors like this "us vs. them" doesn't help anyone achieve it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Midareyukki

To add to my edit. Here's what people are misremembering, HARD.

It was stuff like this that Yoshida asked to include in the game.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EP_TLXiUUAAPZVl.jpg
.

---

I was so mad that we didn't get this for Au'ra dudes, I can't say I like what they picked at all especially with that itty bitty waist they got.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akimori

wasn't there a Japanese player that came in and passively confirmed that what he said during the 2019 LL was what he said and not some kind of mistranslation?

---

Sadly no..
The Japanese player saw the LL quotes SacraAnima compiled into one comment, then he posted it in his own JPN forum with a comment saying along the lines of “omg really?? That’s great!” So it seems like that was the first he heard of Yoshi promising more race exclusive hairstyles

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SherlottaEryut

Sadly no..
The Japanese player saw the LL quotes SacraAnima compiled into one comment, then he posted it in his own JPN forum with a comment saying along the lines of “omg really?? That’s great!” So it seems like that was the first he heard of Yoshi promising more race exclusive hairstyles

---

I directly quoted the official Live Letter translation found in the archives in this forum

"We certainly plan on adding more, so please wait for future patches. However, it will still be race-specific, so there won’t be as many selections when compared to other races."

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...808-29-2019%29

It may be a mistranslation, or it may be that Yoshi P forgot that he made that comment, either way it points to a lack of proper communication that was left untouched for three years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Forever salty over what they did to female Au Ra. That very first concept in the top left was amazing.

---

I would've liked the musculature they went with for the male Au Ra in that art, so a bit bulkier than they are now but not quite as much as Roes or Hrothgar, however I like the faces better from the last slide they showed for them. At this point, I wish they'd tied them more closely to the dragons, and had them have the option of either more draconic or more human-like faces, and I'd have been happy. I enjoy demonic designs, like the Felbloods or demon hunters in WoW. Female Au Ra in those slides are vastly superior to what we got. I realise a lot of people like them but meh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SacraAnima

I directly quoted the official Live Letter translation found in the archives in this forum

"We certainly plan on adding more, so please wait for future patches. However, it will still be race-specific, so there won’t be as many selections when compared to other races."

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...808-29-2019%29

It may be a mistranslation, or it may be that Yoshi P forgot that he made that comment, either way it points to a lack of proper communication that was left untouched for three years.

---

It's okay - I knew it was a direct quote... Sorry if it looked like I was trying to shit stir (Wasn't my intention at all) :)
Still though, I hope it's something they can bring up again..

I will be taking a more controversial take on this.
But if the models are so bad as to result in such a big and hard problem to tackle then I could see one of two things that could be done.
1. They could remake the Hrothgar 3D model as a whole, redesign them to work with the engine and be less of a headache to work with.
2. Rework the engine and accommodate for Hrothgar and Viera. Put people to make the code to allow these changes to be implemented.
I honestly don't think it's an impossible task since other MMOs have done it before. Nothing is impossible, you just have to put time and effort into making it work. It is almost baffling that the pay-locked races (the ones you need to pay for the base game + Shadowbringers) are the ones being so restricted.
Male Viera's are out and the team has figured out a way to add hairstyles to both Male and Female Viera. I say take them and until 6.5-7.0 work on their model and make it fully integrated (no more limitations bull). Then after they are done go and rework the Hrothgar models to fully integrate them as well (+add the females) in 7.0.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

I will be taking a more controversial take on this.
But if the models are so bad as to result in such a big and hard problem to tackle then I could see one of two things that could be done.
1. They could remake the Hrothgar 3D model as a whole, redesign them to work with the engine and be less of a headache to work with.
2. Rework the engine and accommodate for Hrothgar and Viera. Put people to make the code to allow these changes to be implemented.
I honestly don't think it's an impossible task since other MMOs have done it before. Nothing is impossible, you just have to put time and effort into making it work. It is almost baffling that the pay-locked races (the ones you need to pay for the base game + Shadowbringers) are the ones being so restricted.
Male Viera's are out and the team has figured out a way to add hairstyles to both Male and Female Viera. I say take them and until 6.5-7.0 work on their model and make it fully integrated (no more limitations bull). Then after they are done go and rework the Hrothgar models to fully integrate them as well (+add the females) in 7.0.

---

There are no problems with the engine or with the model. :) If there were some problems then the mods would not work at all. But the modders had fixes for this ear problem within a few hours.

The question comes up, why the modders can fix those problems so quickly and the game designers cannot?


Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Larirawiel

There are no problems with the engine or with the model. :) If there were some problems then the mods would not work at all. But the modders had fixes for this ear problem within a few hours.

The question comes up, why the modders can fix those problems so quickly and the game designers cannot?


Cheers

---

Precisely this. It appears that other people were able to go in and figure out the inner workings of these models while the people who are being paid to do this job couldn't or wouldn't. Are their schedules for work so packed that no time could be spared for this? Because nothing in this situation adds up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

I will be taking a more controversial take on this.
But if the models are so bad as to result in such a big and hard problem to tackle then I could see one of two things that could be done.
1. They could remake the Hrothgar 3D model as a whole, redesign them to work with the engine and be less of a headache to work with.
2. Rework the engine and accommodate for Hrothgar and Viera. Put people to make the code to allow these changes to be implemented.
I honestly don't think it's an impossible task since other MMOs have done it before. Nothing is impossible, you just have to put time and effort into making it work. It is almost baffling that the pay-locked races (the ones you need to pay for the base game + Shadowbringers) are the ones being so restricted.
Male Viera's are out and the team has figured out a way to add hairstyles to both Male and Female Viera. I say take them and until 6.5-7.0 work on their model and make it fully integrated (no more limitations bull). Then after they are done go and rework the Hrothgar models to fully integrate them as well (+add the females) in 7.0.

---

Time and effort are two words foreign to the dev team. Then again, the pvp update is really fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Precisely this. It appears that other people were able to go in and figure out the inner workings of these models while the people who are being paid to do this job couldn't or wouldn't. Are their schedules for work so packed that no time could be spared for this? Because nothing in this situation adds up.

---

That's the most confusing part. I won't pretend to even understand anything about coding, but if it took modders not even 6 hours after patch release to fix the ears, I kinda question if it really would've taken the devs - the people that created the race - more than, idk, an evening to achieve the same results. It really sounds like a case of "they wouldn't" rather than "they couldn't"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

That's the most confusing part. I won't pretend to know anything about coding, but if it took modders not even 6 hours after patch release to fix the ears, I kinda question if it really would've taken the devs - the people that created the race - more than, idk, an evening to achieve the same results

---

That is the reason why i think, that the game has a management problem and not "1.0 spaghetti code"-problems. It sems, that the game designers are constrained by some really weird rules and cannot deliver proper results. Either they have a huge lack of game designer ressources (it is a management decision) and/or they have still a "must run on a PS3"-policy and the game designers must not break it. But the latter is also a management decision. This two possibilities make sense to me. :)



Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

That's the most confusing part. I won't pretend to even understand anything about coding, but if it took modders not even 6 hours after patch release to fix the ears, I kinda question if it really would've taken the devs - the people that created the race - more than, idk, an evening to achieve the same results. It really sounds like a case of "they wouldn't" rather than "they couldn't"

---

As the new frameset is delivered, the solution isn't related to modelling or coding itself. Just change a flag, which is something like 5-10 clicks.

Turning the ears invisible was just a poor design desicion, not more, not less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkfrost

snip

---

You claiming it's a misconception without anything to back it up is negated by the fact that threads about both viera and hrothgar hairstyles have been around for years and for both races they did not listen to either of them.

Even if it were a misconception, the utter lack of acknowledging the community unless it's a controversial change that they always have already implemented without asking in of itself counts as neglect.

This entire thread is quite literally evidence of this neglect. They didn't listen for years, didn't listen to what hairstyles we wanted and didn't listen when we all collectively decided we would rather forego the earless peanut karen styles.

Example: At any point they could have said to us they were clarifying the fantasia patch issue but chose to wait until the 2nd version of the patch notes. They left us hanging for over a week while threads like this spiraled out of control and then in the patch notes without more acknowledgement added a single sentence.

That's either ignoring us or incompetence. Neither is a good look.

If square wants us to not feel like we're ignored, that's on them to recrify. Not you. They pay PR people to do the job you're doing for free.

I just don't understand why they felt the need to not only lie, but also expect us to be cool with the lead Hrothgar designer thinking it would be a good idea to attach ears to HAIR. Never in my experience playing MMOs have I ever heard of such a concept. Although now that we know the base head models are separate from the hair (and ears, apparently), they now have no excuse to not give more options to Hroth players.

It doesn't make any sense...if they just said: "Hey you guys only have two hairstyles to choose from right now," it would suck, but the backlash wouldn't nearly be as severe. IF THEY JUST LET THE EARS CLIP THROUGH THE HAIR, THE BACKLASH WOULDN'T NEARLY BE AS SEVERE!

Also can someone explain to me why cutting the ears off for hairstyles is okay but Hrothgar/Viera still aren't allowed to wear hats? Where's the consistency? Just letting the ears clip would look LEAGUES better than the "method" they're using now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iedarus

I just don't understand why they felt the need to not only lie, but also expect us to be cool with the lead Hrothgar designer thinking it would be a good idea to attach ears to HAIR. Never in my experience playing MMOs have I ever heard of such a concept. Although now that we know the base head models are separate from the hair (and ears, apparently), they now have no excuse to not give more options to Hroth players.

It doesn't make any sense...if they just said: "Hey you guys only have two hairstyles to choose from right now," it would suck, but the backlash wouldn't nearly be as severe. IF THEY JUST LET THE EARS CLIP THROUGH THE HAIR, THE BACKLASH WOULDN'T NEARLY BE AS SEVERE!

Also can someone explain to me why cutting the ears off for hairstyles is okay but Hrothgar/Viera still aren't allowed to wear hats? Where's the consistency? Just letting the ears clip would look LEAGUES better than the "method" they're using now.

---

Hrothgar ears aren't separate or on the hair, still very much part of the head model, just with an added flag that roughly translates to: if these hair are equipped = hide ear segment, and yes I feel like clipping definitely would've been the way to go with Square doing their best to minimize it, since in it's current iteration there seems to be not much effort to conform the hair to the skull, so the shorter ear option would only be slightly visible, that said at least it would be there. It's kinda puzzling that they're willing to make slight changes to hairs like miqote, au ra, viera ( albeit for viera punching two unnecessary holes in the scalp is kinda pointless ) who have somewhat unusual things going on by some standard but aren't willing to do the same here.

I suppose the ears being attached to the head would explain why they're 100% static, at least Viera ears boing a bit when they jump or when there's strong wind. In a perfect world, they'd both be like Miqo'te and at least move with certain emotes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

I suppose the ears being attached to the head would explain why they're 100% static, at least Viera ears boing a bit when they jump or when there's strong wind. In a perfect world, they'd both be like Miqo'te and at least move with certain emotes

---

I prefer the stiffness of the Viera’s ears.
It’s how they were in XII and I wouldn’t have them any other way. The image of their ears moving feels very wrong.