"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

But isn't a single pack tank, who does not pick up aggro when others pull letting the group wipe, themselves forcing others to play the way they want over the interest of the rest of the group? Let's face it, the main problem with the ypyt mindset is mostly one of ego and not "the best interest of the group".

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You can't always get it your way, some tanks are just slower than others. Suck it up.
Sometimes MMO and roulette experiences aren't that great. Yet many have made it to endgame without skipping.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

You can't always get it your way, some tanks are just slower than others. Suck it up.

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If the tank speaks up and says, "Hey I am new, can we please slow down" or if the healer is new and learning. Completely different story. But if you want to hold up the entire group because you are on such an ego trip that you refuse to do the job that you easily can with literally no change to anything you are doing, just because it is someone else doing the thing instead of you, that is a you problem. And maybe you need to suck it up, cause you cannot always have your way either. No matter how entitled to dominating a party you believe yourself to be.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

If the tank speaks up and says, Hey I am new, can we please slow down" or if the healer is new and learning. Completely different story. But if you want to hold up the entire group because you are on such an ego trip that you refuse to do the job that you easily can with literally no change to anything you are doing, just because it is someone else doing the thing instead of you, that is a you problem. And maybe you need to suck it up, cause you cannot always have your way either. No matter how entitled to dominating a party you believe yourself to be.

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This post just shows you can't suck it up, because clearly you can't handle a few bumps in roulette.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

This post just shows you can't suck it up, because clearly you can't handle a few bumps in roulette.

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lol ok. /patshead

There is no proof you actually take your own advice.

I still think you're (general you not you specifically) making excuses for abusive behaviour.

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

you play a multiplayer game with many people you shouldn't force other people to play the way you want it that's all there is to it

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What? Who's forcing who?
The people who refuse to play the game or the people who are willing to accommodate different playstyles?

I honestly don't care how easy it is with wall to wall pulls these days. To me, ego is not an issue unless the intent is there to get the other puller intentionally killed. Accommodations are. I probably would have been more accepting of the wall to wall pulls that people do today if it was explained that this is what we're now going to do. I probably would of been more accepting of this if people asked if we can start pulling bigger mobs. I never got the message. One day I woke up, and all of a sudden it's an expectation that everyone runs all dungeons like this for time. To me, there was no consideration whatsoever which was a huge turnoff for me. If I someday decide to go ahead and relearn healing this is the type of environment I'm going to be expected to be playing in. With the talk of removing resurrection from summoner and red mage next expansion running dungeons is literally going to feel no different than playing the deleted feast where everyone is searching for only competent players since a healer dying in that future scenario is only going to lead the group to immediately wipe since there's no killing bosses without them (Don't ask. I play too much pvp.). I don't see myself playing all roles with that expectation which is why I'm keeping far away from the tank and healer roles, healer especially. It's just not worth the stress learning to keep people alive in a big crowd knowing that one slip up could mean wiping. I probably sound very crazy saying all of this despite the tank and healer roles becoming very easy and having the tools to deal with this. I just don't have that confidence to perform well with healing and may take a very long time to get.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

You can't always get it your way, some tanks are just slower than others. Suck it up.
Sometimes MMO and roulette experiences aren't that great. Yet many have made it to endgame without skipping.

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I mean as with every comment like this you can basically reverse this as an argument against the tank

“You won’t always get people so willing to go slow for you suck it up and go faster”

Respect for other players time here is a two way street but people love to pretend like “respect” means “go only at the speed of the slowest person”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean as with every comment like this you can basically reverse this as an argument against the tank

“You won’t always get people so willing to go slow for you suck it up and go faster”

Respect for other players time here is a two way street but people love to pretend like “respect” means “go only at the speed of the slowest person”

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Of course. It's impossible to go faster than the slowest person.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

You can't always get it your way, some tanks are just slower than others. Suck it up.
Sometimes MMO and roulette experiences aren't that great. Yet many have made it to endgame without skipping.

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Maybe we need some standards injected back into video gaming in general lmao

You pull you tank is a ego statement. Doesn't matter what way of thinking you perceive it to be. Tank's are not leaders of the group just cause of the role assigned. If you are single pulling with the intention of holding your group to your pull standards then you should excuse yourself and run the trust system. A third dps can do your job better and make healing more engaging for the healer. This thread is old time to let it die and move on.

Disagree. Imo part of playing Tank is the class fantasy of being the leader busting down the door. Being the shield, not just some brainless damage sponge. I'm a DPS, but I think when DPS/Healers do that instead of the Tank its selfish and robbing them of that.

This game has almost zero aggro management. Tanks can easily pull mobs off players with 1-2 clicks that are part of their rotation anyways. Tanks refusing to do so are either bad at tanking or have ego problems.

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Originally Posted by JohnLakeside

Disagree. Imo part of playing Tank is the class fantasy of being the leader busting down the door. Being the shield, not just some brainless damage sponge. I'm a DPS, but I think when DPS/Healers do that instead of the Tank its selfish and robbing them of that.

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Okay compromise

You can be the leader of the party and I won’t pull ahead of you

BUT

you actually have to LEAD and not drag your feet like you forgot where the sprint button is

Like there is literally nothing stopping you fulfilling that fantasy, just press sprint

also tanks if you are unhappy with people doing your role can you give healing back to the healers

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Originally Posted by JohnLakeside

Disagree. Imo part of playing Tank is the class fantasy of being the leader busting down the door. Being the shield, not just some brainless damage sponge. I'm a DPS, but I think when DPS/Healers do that instead of the Tank its selfish and robbing them of that.

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All tanks are damage sponges.

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Originally Posted by JohnLakeside

Disagree. Imo part of playing Tank is the class fantasy of being the leader busting down the door. Being the shield, not just some brainless damage sponge. I'm a DPS, but I think when DPS/Healers do that instead of the Tank its selfish and robbing them of that.

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If you want class fantasy go play an actually good game this game has none LOL

If the tank is going slow, they do it for a reason, and probably not because of an ego power trip. If I really, really don't like the pace of the dungeon, I just remove myself and do other stuff with my time.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Okay compromise

You can be the leader of the party and I won’t pull ahead of you

BUT

you actually have to LEAD and not drag your feet like you forgot where the sprint button is

Like there is literally nothing stopping you fulfilling that fantasy, just press sprint

also tanks if you are unhappy with people doing your role can you give healing back to the healers

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Suggestion: Instead of melding pity materia to get people to play with you use heaven's spine materias instead.


Y'all shout "team game" whenever it's convenient, but you you can't comprehend that people work with you and not for you.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Suggestion: Instead of melding pity materia to get people to play with you use heaven's spine materias instead.


Y'all shout "team game" whenever it's convenient, but you you can't comprehend that people work with you and nolt for you.

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The person I replied to literally said “it’s stealing my identity if you pull ahead of me”

YOU can literally not let anyone else pull ahead of you if you simply RUN and take agro first. “Being the leader” as the other person said isn’t being the enforced stone dragging the party down it’s actually being at the front leading

Before you shout about “team game when it’s convenient for you” maybe tell the person I replied to that you can’t both be the leader and the person demanding everyone else play at a slower speed for you

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The person I replied to literally said “it’s stealing my identity if you pull ahead of me”

YOU can literally not let anyone else pull ahead of you if you simply RUN and take agro first. “Being the leader” as the other person said isn’t being the enforced stone dragging the party down it’s actually being at the front leading

Before you shout about “team game when it’s convenient for you” maybe tell the person I replied to that you can’t both be the leader and the person demanding everyone else play at a slower speed for you

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So you demand that everyone should be completely dependent on the healers, by stripping most self sustainability, and give them back their job fantasy and have everyone cater to it, while essentially stealing credit from adventurers and scions, wasting Hraesvalgr's eye, and making Zenos looks average, and only feel empowered by putting tanks down.
But oh no, Tanks cannot be anything more than brainless damage sponges who have to do your bidding because you said so.

If the tank and everyone else dies because you overpull (because bad gear or being new, or even lack of skill), especially in early game dungeons that's on you. If you get kicked because of uncooperative behavior, that's on you.
I don't know in how many variations I have to repeat it, but I still think anyone posting in this thread is just self-reporting and admitting guilt to being a shit-head.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

YOU can literally not let anyone else pull ahead of you if you simply RUN and take agro first.

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Nah, sorry, but that is simply wrong, by virtue of tanks only having gap closers which require a target, while dps have targetless dashes. I pull as fast as possible with sprint right from the start and gap closers when in range, and most runs are completely uneventful in that regard. However, I do get the occasional dps that is dashing ahead instead of dpsing the already pulled mobs, and when I ask them to stop, I do get the same kind of arguments we get here, as if I were single pulling while slow walking. The truth is, that the aggro system in FF14 is quite fickle (as demonstrated when GNB and DRK lost the damage component of their gap closer, and now mobs aggro in a weird way compared to PLD and WAR), and dps pulling with healers getting aggro a second later can cause mobs to run in weird patterns. So we now have a few wayward mobs, which aren't in range for aoe, with dps who spend more of their time on movement / pulling instead of dpsing, healers having to heal instead of dpsing, while simultanously deluding themselves that they actually "mAkE thE rUn Go FaStEr". Yes, slow tanks are annoying (and it should be called out, especially in higher level content), but the ego and selfishness of some non-tanks doesn't gain any validity due to that fact.

Tanks shouldn't have to RACE the DPS for aggro. you gain nothing because as DPS you have to run back to the tank. You essentially run more but don't gain any time because tnhe Tank STILL moves at the same speed.
You maybe get mobs faster, but the time of arrival at the wall stays the same.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

So you demand that everyone should be completely dependent on the healers, by stripping most self sustainability, and give them back their job fantasy and have everyone cater to it, while essentially stealing credit from adventurers and scions, wasting Hraesvalgr's eye, and making Zenos looks average, and only feel empowered by putting tanks down.
But oh no, Tanks cannot be anything more than brainless damage sponges who have to do your bidding because you said so.

If the tank and everyone else dies because you overpull (because bad gear or being new, or even lack of skill), especially in early game dungeons that's on you. If you get kicked because of uncooperative behavior, that's on you.
I don't know in how many variations I have to repeat it, but I still think anyone posting in this thread is just self-reporting and admitting guilt to being a shit-head.

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I still have no idea how people seem to have no idea there is a middle ground between tanks are playable ping pong balls being bounced between the healer and the boss and tanks literally not even needing the rest of the party. Do you people actually think the 14 tanks are balanced? Like do you genuinely think that what the tanks can do is balanced relative to the damage the game puts out (side note genuinely WTF was that “stealing credit from x y and z about). Regardless this has nothing to do with literally just “if you want to be the leader then actually lead”

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Nah, sorry, but that is simply wrong, by virtue of tanks only having gap closers which require a target, while dps have targetless dashes. I pull as fast as possible with sprint right from the start and gap closers when in range, and most runs are completely uneventful in that regard. However, I do get the occasional dps that is dashing ahead instead of dpsing the already pulled mobs, and when I ask them to stop, I do get the same kind of arguments we get here, as if I were single pulling while slow walking. The truth is, that the aggro system in FF14 is quite fickle (as demonstrated when GNB and DRK lost the damage component of their gap closer, and now mobs aggro in a weird way compared to PLD and WAR), and dps pulling with healers getting aggro a second later can cause mobs to run in weird patterns. So we now have a few wayward mobs, which aren't in range for aoe, with dps who spend more of their time on movement / pulling instead of dpsing, healers having to heal instead of dpsing, while simultanously deluding themselves that they actually "mAkE thE rUn Go FaStEr". Yes, slow tanks are annoying (and it should be called out, especially in higher level content), but the ego and selfishness of some non-tanks doesn't gain any validity due to that fact.

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Again if the DPS do happen to get ahead and pull agro then simply pull it off them. Like yall are acting like it’s rocket science to literally be right up with the DPS keeping agro. Because as the original point the other person made you cannot lead from the back. It’s up to you to be at the front if you want to lead, not everyone else to position themselves constantly behind you

I mean, if somebody pulls ahead of you. Let them do it? Let the mob converge on them, THEN AoE (I do this when somebody pulls ahead all the time). What's so hard about that? They won't die from 1-2 slaps, and you get a little 'hp shield' for using your healer/dps' health bar. Is it easier for the tank to let them pull? Sure. But let's not act like breathing an AoE to a pack to yank off the enmity is a hard task. If you see one of your party member are super eager to pull, you can always make a mental note of that to adapt very easily, ask, or vote kick them. At the end of the day the majority gets their way.

You can blame it on SE for making enmity and survivability being a joke that nobody nowadays take these pulls anymore seriously outside some rare specimens.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I still have no idea how people seem to have no idea there is a middle ground between tanks are playable ping pong balls being bounced between the healer and the boss and tanks literally not even needing the rest of the party. Do you people actually think the 14 tanks are balanced? Like do you genuinely think that what the tanks can do is balanced relative to the damage the game puts out (side note genuinely WTF was that “stealing credit from x y and z about). Regardless this has nothing to do with literally just “if you want to be the leader then actually lead”

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So how does their survivability mean they can just be treated like shit? Like you people have absolutely no respect and seem to think simply running from A to B while everyone else does their job is fulfilling gameplay, yet here you are demanding job fantasy while condemning tanks to above.

Whether it’s a net positive to let the DPS pull or not is irrelevant to the point TBerry quoted from me anyway.

The person I replied to said that allowing anyone else to pull ahead is tantamount to stealing the tanks identity as the tank “fantasy” is being the leader.

So if you want to lead as that’s your fantasy it’s your job to always aim to be in front and be the first one to the mob pack if possible. Your job as a “leader” isn’t to demand everyone stay behind you while you go at your own speed

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Originally Posted by TBerry

So how does their survivability mean they can just be treated like shit? Like you people have absolutely no respect and seem to think simply running from A to B while everyone else does their job is fulfilling gameplay, yet here you are demanding job fantasy while condemning tanks to above.

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Who is being treated like shit? Pulling ahead of the tank isn’t treating them like shit or not giving them respect. As I’ve said in hundreds of posts before it’s squares decision around agro in this game that makes tanks both have functionally no unique role mechanics and have no claim to pull control as agro is meaningless in this game but that isn’t an excuse to just have tanks steal the healer role. If you want engaging tank gameplay that involves agro management then demand it back. I’ll support it. THEN there is legit arguments around tanks being the controlled puller. But in the current environment not so much and playing designated puller in a game where agro is meaningless isn’t a “role mechanic”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Whether it’s a net positive to let the DPS pull or not is irrelevant to the point TBerry quoted from me anyway.

The person I replied to said that allowing anyone else to pull ahead is tantamount to stealing the tanks identity as the tank “fantasy” is being the leader.

So if you want to lead as that’s your fantasy it’s your job to always aim to be in front and be the first one to the mob pack if possible. Your job as a “leader” isn’t to demand everyone stay behind you while you go at your own speed

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It's not about leading, it's about being the meat shield, distraction and the ram.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

It's not about leading, it's about being the meat shield, distraction and the ram.

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Then why did you reply to my comment refuting the guy who specifically said tank fantasy WAS being the leader. Go argue with him

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Then why did you reply to my comment refuting the guy who specifically said tank fantasy WAS being the leader. Go argue with him

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That's the guy's opinion then, we can argue about details like that sometime in the future. Though "lead" can also mean simply being in front. But yes, puller. Tanks aren't suposed to be just aggro shopping carts.

I feel like arguing ‘tanks are pointless anyway so we can just ignore their role’ when there’s a much more evident green-coloured role that’s infinitely more pointless is just a never-ending spiral.

I mean couldn’t it easily be argued by this logic that ‘healers are useless and barely need to touch any abilities so lets just have the tank do their job because it’s so easy. If healers want to do their own job they can go to the forums and complain about encounter design’? Isn’t it literally faster and easier to just do 1T 3DPS* anyway?

In the current environment…playing designated healer in a game where healing is meaningless isn’t a ‘role mechanic’ either. Isn’t it kinda hypocritical to say ‘healers and dps can take the tank’s role because it’s pointless anyway’ but simultaneously argue ‘healers are having their role infringed upon by tanks and it’s not fair (even though it’s pointless and can be easily fulfilled by others)’. It’s Square’s decision to make tanks useless but that isn’t an excuse to have healers or dps pushing into their role. Like can one really advocate one thing and support the complete opposite at the same time?

Either we want role-specific contributions in combat (i.e only tanks manage aggro, only healers heal, overly literal interpretation but point stands) or we want a PvP role-agnostic style where it’s every man for themselves. Because clearly the ‘everyone has a fixed role but the only one that really exists is dps’ middle ground devs are going for now isn’t really working from what I can see.

Idk just doesn’t seem fair to me to argue ‘tanks should just let the others do their job and be thankful we allow them to exist’ but for healers it’s absolutely unconscionable that someone else can do their job for them and they should be thankful we allow them to exist lol. Like why would you do the healing when the tank can just pop one of their millions of healing cooldowns and do it for you? Isn’t that literally the same logic as ‘why would tanks pull when you can have one of the dps do it and pop Arm’s Length or [class-specific defensive]’? I’d argue both those things are just as bad as each other


* not that you couldn’t do 1T 3H you’d just be there a while

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Originally Posted by Connor

I feel like arguing ‘tanks are pointless anyway so we can just ignore their role’ when there’s a much more evident green-coloured role that’s infinitely more pointless is just a never-ending spiral.

I mean couldn’t it easily be argued by this logic that ‘healers are useless and barely need to touch any abilities so lets just have the tank do their job because it’s so easy. If healers want to do their own job they can go to the forums and complain about encounter design’? Isn’t it literally faster and easier to just do 1T 3DPS* anyway?

In the current environment…playing designated healer in a game where healing is meaningless isn’t a ‘role mechanic’ either. Isn’t it kinda hypocritical to say ‘healers and dps can take the tank’s role because it’s pointless anyway’ but simultaneously argue ‘healers are having their role infringed upon by tanks and it’s not fair (even though it’s pointless and can be easily fulfilled by others)’. It’s Square’s decision to make tanks useless but that isn’t an excuse to have healers or dps pushing into their role. Like can one really advocate one thing and support the complete opposite at the same time?

Either we want role-specific contributions in combat (i.e only tanks manage aggro, only healers heal, overly literal interpretation but point stands) or we want a PvP role-agnostic style where it’s every man for themselves. Because clearly the ‘everyone has a fixed role but the only one that really exists is dps’ middle ground devs are going for now isn’t really working from what I can see.

Idk just doesn’t seem fair to me to argue ‘tanks should just let the others do their job and be thankful we allow them to exist’ but for healers it’s absolutely unconscionable that someone else can do their job for them and they should be thankful we allow them to exist lol. Like why would you do the healing when the tank can just pop one of their millions of healing cooldowns and do it for you? Isn’t that literally the same logic as ‘why would tanks pull when you can have one of the dps do it and pop Arm’s Length or [class-specific defensive]’?


* not that you couldn’t do 1T 3H you’d just be there a while

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This. Yes, thank you so much. This is a well-articulated argument.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

That's the guy's opinion then, we can argue about details like that sometime in the future. Though "lead" can also mean simply being in front. But yes, puller. Tanks aren't suposed to be just aggro shopping carts.

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Yes and “puller” is a meaningless title and a meaningless role in a game that doesn’t have agro management because whether you pull or the DPS/healer pulls the end result is the same, 2 GCD’s later the tank has agro by doing nothing at all

It’s not the DPS or healers fault tanks have no role mechanics but clinging onto a nebulous puller/leader term is pointless when nobody even agrees how far the term extends. Does the tank control how much is pulled? Or only that they pull first? Does it really make a meaningful difference? What if the rest of the party wants more?

The argument shouldn’t be “respect this pointless ‘role’ tanks have invented for themselves after losing agro when said role was actually a meaningful contributor to agro (and also steal healers role on the side)” it should be “give us meaningful agro management back” as I simply do not see “puller” as a substitute for agro controller

Regardless I’m not advocating DPS and healers actively try to do the pulling. I’m saying if they do it’s not a big deal. The core of the problem is the fact that square won’t make agro meaningful if you give tanks agro control then DPS or healers pulling becomes actively detrimental to the party then YPYT becomes a more nuanced discussion as pulling ahead of the tank becomes a functional net negative

I guess you can widen the point to “execution of role mechanics is functionally role agnostic because of how easy dungeons are but availability of role mechanics is limited”

The tank role doesn’t have a mechanic currently so tanks and healers share healers mechanic of healing. The pseudo tank “role” of pulling can be done by anyone because tanks don’t have a mechanic and all roles do DPS. The fix is to give agro management back to the tanks and healing back to the healers. So the tanks have a defined role mechanic back and order of role interaction in the dungeon is re-established

I find this discussion very surreal because in most dungeons - I'd say 90% of them - it's not even an issue because nobody runs ahead to pull. I rarely experience it, but if someone does, I just wait until they bring the mobs to me and then AoE them. How is that a problem?

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

... The truth is, that the aggro system in FF14 is quite fickle (as demonstrated when GNB and DRK lost the damage component of their gap closer, and now mobs aggro in a weird way compared to PLD and WAR), and dps pulling with healers getting aggro a second later can cause mobs to run in weird patterns...

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This, specifically, I have observed as well and it's annoying, I agree wholeheartedly. Still, not hard to resolve but it does require to maybe go a few steps back and get those mobs. I don't like it but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

... just have tanks steal the healer role ...

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The thing is, so many healers don't know how to heal anymore. Because I was curious, I recently did a few dungeons without using my heals - the ones that 'healers' find so offensive (Bloodwhetting, Equilibrium, Shake). And guess what, I got told to use all of my kit because they didn't actually want to heal. Then there are the Cure 1 Heros. The 'Esuna doesn't exist' believers. The 'I'm a pacifist, I don't do damage' people. The 'I stand in every AoE imaginable' folks. And so on and so forth. I'm glad tanks (and dps) don't need to rely on such players, but I do understand how it can be boring for an actually good healer.

To get back to the topic of this thread - generally YPYT is not a good mindset to have, but if either the healer or the tank is weak (gear, experience etc.) there is nothing wrong with going slower and adjusting to the situation.

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Originally Posted by Amvin

I find this discussion very surreal because in most dungeons - I'd say 90% of them - it's not even an issue because nobody runs ahead to pull. I rarely experience it, but if someone does, I just wait until they bring the mobs to me and then AoE them. How is that a problem?



This, specifically, I have observed as well and it's annoying, I agree wholeheartedly. Still, not hard to resolve but it does require to maybe go a few steps back and get those mobs. I don't like it but it is what it is.




The thing is, so many healers don't know how to heal anymore. Because I was curious, I recently did a few dungeons without using my heals - the ones that 'healers' find so offensive (Bloodwhetting, Equilibrium, Shake). And guess what, I got told to use all of my kit because they didn't actually want to heal. Then there are the Cure 1 Heros. The 'Esuna doesn't exist' believers. The 'I'm a pacifist, I don't do damage' people. The 'I stand in every AoE imaginable' folks. And so on and so forth. I'm glad tanks (and dps) don't need to rely on such players, but I do understand how it can be boring for an actually good healer.

To get back to the topic of this thread - generally YPYT is not a good mindset to have, but if either the healer or the tank is weak (gear, experience etc.) there is nothing wrong with going slower and adjusting to the situation.

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The concept of “bad players exist so roles should overlap” is flawed if the exchange is not equivalent

For example you mention that “some healers are bad so I can cover myself if said healer is bad”, a fair (though strange for an MMO) mindset. However besides the initial act of pulling who can really effectively do the tanks role for them if they are terrible and who can replace a high damage dealer if your PCT wants to spam fire in red instead of their muses. I’ve had just as many “rampart what’s rampart” and “blizzard 1 is the only button on my hotbar” as I’ve had “sylphies”. However role coverage is not equivalent. No matter how competant your healer is DPS simply do not make effective tanks (especially casters) and tanks/healers simply do not make effective DPS compared to say PCT. However tanks do make effective healers in dungeons. That’s my problem with tank healing in dungeons but that’s not really the point of the conversation. The problem is lack of tank mechanics in trash pulls

As a tank as a secondary main I want agro management back. I want to be a “tank” in dungeons and make enemies want to hit me, not just a weird gimped melee DPS with a suspicious amount of healing

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Again if the DPS do happen to get ahead and pull agro then simply pull it off them. Like yall are acting like it’s rocket science to literally be right up with the DPS keeping agro. Because as the original point the other person made you cannot lead from the back. It’s up to you to be at the front if you want to lead, not everyone else to position themselves constantly behind you

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But that's the thing, it doesn't just "happen" somehow, it requires actively doing it. Further, as I said, the mob pattern might be wonky, and it might not be trivial to get aggro back. Especially when the healer got aggro, is more on the slower side. As such, to get aggro back requires the tank to now run back a bit, which is antithetical to the whole motivation that is usually used to justify dps pulling (and has always been used by the people I personally encountered doing this). A wayward mob being behind 1-3 gcds also lives longer, meaning that the pull itself will take longer.

As I said, I can understand the frustration with slow tanks, that's why I try to tank as much as possible. I had a leisurely strolling tank today not even using sprint in a lvl 100 dungeon, and that was annoying to no end. However, in these discussion, "dps pulling" is always framed as a universally positive thing, no matter the context. In my experience, these "racing" dps are usually bad at their jobs as well (uneven distribution of damage, later packs / higher hp mobs do not got prioritized with moves), and often stop dpsing when there are still mobs to kill, just to be the first on the line when the purple wall disappears.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

As a tank as a secondary main I want agro management back. I want to be a “tank” in dungeons and make enemies want to hit me, not just a weird gimped melee DPS with a suspicious amount of healing

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This I can 100% agree with. It would be fun to stance dance or to tab through a pack of mobs to hit each with a high threat skill or something like that. I'm used to it from other games and find aggro management in 14 ... let's say very simple. The only time I do have to work for aggro is in raid, when my co-tank has stance on as well, but that's not even due to aggro mechanics but just because of the other tank jobs having more burst or damage output, given equal player skill.

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As I said, I can understand the frustration with slow tanks, that's why I try to tank as much as possible. I had a leisurely strolling tank today not even using sprint in a lvl 100 dungeon, and that was annoying to no end. However, in these discussion, "dps pulling" is always framed as a universally positive thing, no matter the context. In my experience, these "racing" dps are usually bad at their jobs as well (uneven distribution of damage, later packs / higher hp mobs do not got prioritized with moves), and often stop dpsing when there are still mobs to kill, just to be the first on the line when the purple wall disappears.

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This, damn it. So I don't know if I'm the unlucky one, and that's entirely possible. But this kind of ‘debate’ makes me smile because I've very rarely come across players with this mentality who are good dps. As a result, as in many cases, there's a crazy contrast between what's said on the forum, where, when you read those who defend the practice, they're excellent players who basically help the group by doing it, and what I see in the dungeon, where the player concerned is above all a harried oddball who doesn't give a shit about pulling in a relevant way. Where are these famous players who pull efficiently and respect the tank by pulling the adds to them?

It's got to the point where, when I see a message like this, I automatically think: ‘aaaaah. You're that famous bard who pulls, does a miserable dps, then bails before the mobs get killed because... Because I don't know, the purple wall seems incredibly beautiful to look at?’

More seriously, I don't understand this type of subject. Honestly, I couldn't care less about the pseudo-debate on the effectiveness or otherwise of this type of practice. It's just that it's a group game; we've all signed up to play together when we enter a group search. That implies a minimum of respect for the pace at which the others play. Knowing that the vast majority of groups pull w2w without question and that a slower tank doesn't do it to annoy the rest of the group, if a player is incapable of slowing down the pace one dungeon out of 5, then I don't think he has any business being in a PF dungeon.

Outside of ARR and select dungeons after, a tank "pulling slow" is a tank single pulling due to the set nature of 2 packs > wall. Tanks and healers who are unable to handle 2 packs need to either stick to trusts, or drop the role.

All this shit about dps pulling ahead is irrelevant. If there are mobs for the dps to pull in the first place, the tank has failed to do their job.

This is why I always run dungeons with a friend. Kicking due to a difference of playstyle is well within our rights, and a playstyle of "slow and steady" is unacceptable. They can queue up again to waste people's time further, or they can do trusts. Either way, it's very quickly not our problem anymore.

You all make it sound like some complex, deep subject when it's not. The standard is w2w because aggro is trivial, add damage is irrelevant in the face of the tools healers and tanks have, and there is no intrinsic value to taking longer vs not doing so. It is a tank and healer's job to learn to manage w2w pulls in the same way it's a dps's job to learn how to aoe and perform their rotations. Anything less is griefing your party, and Square has made features that allow you to not be a burden.

Luckily, the VAST majority of the community understands the very basic concept of "don't be a burden to strangers," so single pull baby tanks are rare, and healers that can't handle a normal pull are even more so. Those of you who advocate for tanks to go "slow" are well into the minority. Those that seem to have constant stories where these issues of dps pulling ahead arise? You're the only common denominator for your problem. Take the fucking hint.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Kicking due to a difference of playstyle is well within our rights, and a playstyle of "slow and steady" is unacceptable

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This is so based

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

Where are these famous players who pull efficiently and respect the tank by pulling the adds to them?

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Probably no longer on Chaos. I still remember when EU was a single DC and I certainly do not miss the players from Moogle, lmao.