We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

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Originally Posted by disturbedcobra

We are playing an MMORPG Like most RPGs, the story implementation is just as big to the game as the gameplay itself. Yes, both experiences are separate but that doesn't make one more important then the other. They are both equally as important for the success of the game as a whole. Plus many great developers put their heart and soul in crafting great plots and characters for us to experience, not to be thrown to the wayside. Kazutoyo Maehiro being the main scenario writer has done an amazing job in crafting various likable characters as well as amazing plot. Then there is the world & lore of the entire game done by Koji Fox. Without all that the game would be rather bland. Think CODIV now that they removed the campaign mode.

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Yeah this doesn't matter. Not everyone is here to play a single player rpg, and square isn't able to make people care about the story.

Design emphasis or no.

Story only matters on patch day, anyway.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Yeah this doesn't matter. Not everyone is here to play a single player rpg, and square isn't able to make people care about the story.

Design emphasis or no.

Story only matters on patch day, anyway.

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Yeah, except if thats what the devs are focusing on and you choose not to partake of it, thats on you not the devs. This would be like going to a steak restaurant and only going there for the chicken appetizer. You can do that, but complaining that the restaurant specializes on steak and not chicken appetizers is on you, not the restaurant.

People dont have to care about the MSQ, but the devs do, and the game is built with that in mind.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Yeah this doesn't matter. Not everyone is here to play a single player rpg, and square isn't able to make people care about the story.

Design emphasis or no.

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If the game doesn't appeal to you, find one that does, buy a skip potion or skip cutscenes manually. There's nothing wrong with the game not fitting your taste, but you don't get to subvert the game to cater to your whims

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Story only matters on patch day, anyway.

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I guess new players only start playing on patch day /s

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Originally Posted by disturbedcobra

We are playing an MMORPG Like most RPGs, the story implementation is just as big to the game as the gameplay itself. Yes, both experiences are separate but that doesn't make one more important then the other. They are both equally as important for the success of the game as a whole. Plus many great developers put their heart and soul in crafting great plots and characters for us to experience, not to be thrown to the wayside. Kazutoyo Maehiro being the main scenario writer has done an amazing job in crafting various likable characters as well as amazing plot. Then there is the world & lore of the entire game done by Koji Fox. Without all that the game would be rather bland. Think CODIV now that they removed the campaign mode.

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RPG, to many just means creating a charachter, choosing their path, and taking them through the world. Its not always about watching/listening to a long narrative you dont interact with. No one is saying remove msq, people are saying forcing people to watch/listen to 100s of hours of a story isnt going to work for everyone. Also, world and lore isnt the same as msq.

I honestly think youd get more people paying attention to more of the msq, if they werent doing it just to unlock something else. Its like if you told a kid he had to turn 500 pages of basketball book before he could touch a basketball, do you think every kid is going to read it?

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

If the game doesn't appeal to you, find one that does, buy a skip potion or skip cutscenes manually. There's nothing wrong with the game not fitting your taste, but you don't get to subvert the game to cater to your whims


I guess new players only start playing on patch day /s

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I've been around longer than these forums have. I'll play what I want, subvert what I please, and poke sacred cows whenever I please.


And yes, the whole problem of the msq is a new player is trapped in patch day for months. If you don't know what that means, then you are fundamentally incapable of understanding these complaints.

Not everyone plays for hammy cutscenes and that's okay. Some people like to watch cutscenes in the inn and that's OK.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Yeah, except if thats what the devs are focusing on and you choose not to partake of it, thats on you not the devs. This would be like going to a steak restaurant and only going there for the chicken appetizer. You can do that, but complaining that the restaurant specializes on steak and not chicken appetizers is on you, not the restaurant.

People dont have to care about the MSQ, but the devs do, and the game is built with that in mind.

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I don't think the analogy directly corresponds with FF14. If anything I'd liken the MSQ more to the appetizer just based on how I play. Being more fair though, it's probably more accurate to call the MSQ one of multiple options for the main course. Saying that it should be done away with is silly, but it's equally silly to insist that the entire FF14 experience revolves around it. You can play FF14 without giving the story any attention, all while being a fan of the game and thoroughly enjoying.

Not directing this at you, but the posts that say "go find another game" miss the point. People don't want to find another game because FF14, minus the story, appeals to them. The MSQ is optional. That's OK and that doesn't mean that people want to take it away.

"Sense of discovery and exploration" just doesn't work in MMOs really, and attempts to capture that by making things difficult to reach just turns into tedium.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I've been around longer than these forums have. I'll play what I want, subvert what I please, and poke sacred cows whenever I please.

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Hey, if you want to joust with windmills, feel free. Doesn't mean anyone including the devs should give you the time of day.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

And yes, the whole problem of the msq is a new player is trapped in patch day for months. If you don't know what that means, then you are fundamentally incapable of understanding these complaints.

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No, I'm just an endgame player who isn't so jaded and laser-focused with endgame that I feel everything else should be warped and channeled torwards it.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Not everyone plays for hammy cutscenes and that's okay. Some people like to watch cutscenes in the inn and that's OK.

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FFXIV is know for its "hammy cutscenes". Are we really going to a meat restaurant asking for fish, and stomping our feet till the owner changes the whole menu to fish?
You and anyone else want the endgame day zero? There's the jump potions for that. No need to change the game to cater to someone's whims. For such a knowledgeable veteran, you skipped school the day they taught "An mmo that changes its fundamental premise risks alienating most of its playerbase".

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Originally Posted by Physic

its weird to me that you think the only difference between WoW and ffxiv is the content lock of MSQ.
You feel like msq is what the game is primarily about, and that its important for each player to go through it the same way, i disagree. Msq is a book, or a movie, not a game. A game requires that all players follow similar rules, such that its fair, but a book/movie is different. Some people love the movie part of ffxiv, some dont.

Put yourself in someone elses shoes here. Imagine you don't need/like/care about story. Now imagine someone is making you watch 110 hours of something or fast foward through it for 50 hours in order to access the actual game portion. or you can pay 25 dollars.

If the story was actually integral to how the game is played, and an integrated part of the experience, like a pen and paper rpg, i would agree with you, but its simply not. Its a seperate thing which has no effect on your play if other people do it.

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This is where youre not thinking about the implications of MSQ does, both at a game level and meta level and why it separates htis game from WoW. The MSQ, unlike wow, gives something everyone can focus around and be a part of. In WoW, story is irrelevant, and the game encourages you to rush to current content and then to max level so you can get raid gear and big shiny equipment to show off. It creatse a lack of player investment in the world at large, and what investment it does create gets turned toxic rapidly through elitism and division among the player base on what should be focused on. The MSQ, on the other hand, has less of that. Anyone can be a part of the MSQ, it creates investment in teh world at large for most players I would hazard, and allows people to talk part of the game without talking about being BiS. A common conversation, so to speak, that people are equally invested in.

Furthermore, you say that the game is making you sit through the MSQ to get to the actual game? What do you think we're doing? What do you think the MSQ is? That is part of the game. Youre not being stopped from playing the game. Youre still playing it, just an older portion of it. But its all still content. It doesnt stop being content just because an xpac comes out. It's a matter of perspective here where we dont see eye to eye. From what Im understanding, you really dont see anything before current xpac (or patch) as being worth doing. It's old. But to most new players, experiencing a new world with new lore and new characters and new quests and new classes, this is all new to them. This is all new content. I would hazard that players who want to skip to the end, dont care about MSQ, and the like, are players who have come from MMOs that are like wow. Where the story is inconsequential, and they were encouraged to power to max because 'thats where the game is at', not realizing that in FFXIV's case, the story does matter, and is a big part of the intended experience.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

I don't think the analogy directly corresponds with FF14. If anything I'd liken the MSQ more to the appetizer just based on how I play. Being more fair though, it's probably more accurate to call the MSQ one of multiple options for the main course. Saying that it should be done away with is silly, but it's equally silly to insist that the entire FF14 experience revolves around it. You can play FF14 without giving the story any attention, all while being a fan of the game and thoroughly enjoying.

Not directing this at you, but the posts that say "go find another game" miss the point. People don't want to find another game because FF14, minus the story, appeals to them. The MSQ is optional. That's OK and that doesn't mean that people want to take it away.

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As I explain above, I personally feel the MSQ results in a different play experience. Unlike wow, where they dont care if you pass the lore, FFXIV doesnt do this. The trouble is what happens if you make hte MSQ optional. It will then default to being just like wow. You can skip content, and will be actively encouraged to do so (more so by the player base now), and shift focus towards the only thing being worthwhile being the end game. Atleast with MSQ being waht it is, everyone plays it, experiences it, and understands it. The world has more meaning, and the MSQ gets you invested in something other than end game.

Im not saying the MSQ is perfect, or that it doesnt need some level of pruning. I fully understand that 3 or 4 xpacs from now, expecting players to have to play from the start of 2.0 to current is going to be a bit much. Streamlining will be necessary. But there is a difference in streamlining and flat out making the MSQ a glorified side quest that most start players will skip based on end expectations from other MMOs and some of the veterans here.

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Originally Posted by Physic

people are saying forcing people to watch/listen to 100s of hours of a story isnt going to work for everyone.

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In my humble opinion, so be it. There are alternative MMORPGs out there, and they all won't work for everyone either. Everyone can choose what works for them and story quests being central to this one game works for me.

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Originally Posted by linay

In my humble opinion, so be it. There are alternative MMORPGs out there, and they all won't work for everyone either. Everyone can choose what works for them and story quests being central to this one game works for me.

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story locks are a dumb hill to die on. All mmos are in a constant war of attrition, its not a good idea to make the game less and less appealing for new players.


Also When we first started, the game was cap 50, and msq wasnt as big of an impediment/segregation of players. Now, the game will have like 3 times the obstacles/segregation. The idea that the current state is the game as it was always meant to be is false. We are currently in an unintended side effect of years of linear expansions, Where old players and new players are 120+ hours apart based on story. There are less and less players reaching max story, and thus experiencing the content. Something is wrong, do nothing, and the game will suffer for it.

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Originally Posted by Physic

There are less and less players reaching max story, and thus experiencing the content. Something is wrong, do nothing, and the game will suffer for it.

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https://i.imgflip.com/3144gl.jpg

Since... According to Yoshida, the game's population has been increasing over SB.

I see no shortage of people at max level, doing max level content. Meaning that they must have reached max story.

Yet you claim, less and less players are reaching max story and that the game is suffering because of it?

So, it must be that you have proof of this?

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Originally Posted by Physic

story locks are a dumb hill to die on. All mmos are in a constant war of attrition, its not a good idea to make the game less and less appealing for new players.


Also When we first started, the game was cap 50, and msq wasnt as big of an impediment/segregation of players. Now, the game will have like 3 times the obstacles/segregation. The idea that the current state is the game as it was always meant to be is false. We are currently in an unintended side effect of years of linear expansions, Where old players and new players are 120+ hours apart based on story. There are less and less players reaching max story, and thus experiencing the content. Something is wrong, do nothing, and the game will suffer for it.

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When we first started, there was no boost option either, but now there is.

And it's not about having some hill to die on, but about a game feature that I like and, thus, want to keep. Could the MSQ be restructured so the quests are more to the point of the major plot points and can be done faster? Sure, it could, and I'd be OK with that. But making it not MSQ by turning it into optional side quests separated from the major points of the story where the character goes to dungeons/trials/raids is not OK for me.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

https://i.imgflip.com/3144gl.jpg

Since... According to Yoshida, the game's population has been increasing over SB.

I see no shortage of people at max level, doing max level content. Meaning that they must have reached max story.

Yet you claim, less and less players are reaching max story and that the game is suffering because of it?

So, it must be that you have proof of this?

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Only 2.5% of charachters have reached 4.1 story as of april. Even assuming the average player has 10 charachters, thats still only 25% of the population. and i doubt the average player has 10 charachters.


https://ffxivcensus.com/#top

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Originally Posted by Physic

Only 2.5% of charachters have reached 4.1 story as of april. Even assuming the average player has 10 charachters, thats still only 25% of the population. and i doubt the average player has 10 charachters.


https://ffxivcensus.com/#top

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Do you also have statistics of how many people reached end of story for previous expansions?

Do these statistics include the many thousands of Bot accounts that don't do the story at all? (Further suggested by looking at the class distribution where the base classes far, far outweigh the stand alone jobs in the "All Characters" graph, while the "Active Characters" graph has a much more expected even distribution)

How does those 9,858,714 deleted characters factor into this?

Have you seen the graph for Grand Company inclusion? With the "All Characters" one showing nearly 3/4 of the entire population do not belong to a Grand Company, which means not getting to around level 20 in the MSQ?

You might want to consider the validity of the data you provide if you're using it as "Proof"

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Originally Posted by linay

When we first started, there was no boost option either, but now there is.

And it's not about having some hill to die on, but about a game feature that I like and, thus, want to keep. Could the MSQ be restructured so the quests are more to the point of the major plot points and can be done faster? Sure, it could, and I'd be OK with that. But making it not MSQ by turning it into optional side quests separated from the major points of the story where the character goes to dungeons/trials/raids is not OK for me.

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i'm not saying remove story and context from dungeons/raids/alliances.

i'm saying have an option players must seek out, to remove msq lockouts for multi player content. Msq is a poor, non adaptive means of gating players from each other. Especially after like level 30-45 when the mechanics of the game world is basically the same from that point on.



Story wise it doesnt even make sense that everyone be in these dungeons for the same reason, So i dont see how other players motivations/knowledge is worth them quitting the game, so you can play with msq heads, tenacious story skippers, and people who buy potions.

I can see how many more players would opt out of msq if there was an option, but that tells you they really never cared about it. I can see people saying the context is less compelling without context, but we are talking about an option specifically for players repelled by the way that context is delivered.

I'm not going to suggest cutting up msq to make it more streamlined, because that messes it up for those who loved it; of whom there are apparently many.

To be honest, I couldn't care less if they let players skip the entire story, as long as the story-driven aspect of the game remains untouched. Except maybe ARR which could be redone with less blatant filler.

I really like story based games, so if that continues to be a thing I can enjoy, then other players can do as they like.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Do you also have statistics of how many people reached end of story for previous expansions?

Do these statistics include the many thousands of Bot accounts that don't do the story at all? (Further suggested by looking at the class distribution where the base classes far, far outweigh the stand alone jobs in the "All Characters" graph, while the "Active Characters" graph has a much more expected even distribution)

How does those 9,858,714 deleted characters factor into this?

Have you seen the graph for Grand Company inclusion? With the "All Characters" one showing nearly 3/4 of the entire population do not belong to a Grand Company, which means not getting to around level 20 in the MSQ?

You might want to consider the validity of the data you provide if you're using it as "Proof"

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notice i said even assuming 10 fake charachters for every real charachter, you are still having a signifigant portion drop out.

but lets say we look at people who got a grand company, as the metric. so only 27% of that number got that far. out of that 27% only 600 made it to 4.1

that means out of 15 mil charachters, only 3.76 mil made a serious attempt at story, and out of the 3.76 mil, 600000 reached 4.1 thats even lower than my 25% random approximation. with only 16% making it to final msq. Of course not all of those are solely because of msq, but thats a pretty big % to lose.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

To be honest, I couldn't care less if they let players skip the entire story, as long as the story-driven aspect of the game remains untouched. Except maybe ARR which could be redone with less blatant filler.

I really like story based games, so if that continues to be a thing I can enjoy, then other players can do as they like.

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yea, this is how i feel, design it with a story in mind, guide and encourage people to use it, but for those of whom it doesnt fit, let them get around it.

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Originally Posted by Physic

story locks are a dumb hill to die on. All mmos are in a constant war of attrition, its not a good idea to make the game less and less appealing for new players.

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Story locks may seem counter intuitive, but homogenizing all MMOs to be the same but with a different paint coat will hurt more than making them stand out for their uniqueness. MMOs that tried to copy WoW ended up failing. MMOs that set out to do their own thing were more successful. In this case, I feel the MSQ and world building is a selling point, not a detriment. Because despite it being supposedly so bad, the game has remained pretty solvent.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Also When we first started, the game was cap 50, and msq wasnt as big of an impediment/segregation of players. Now, the game will have like 3 times the obstacles/segregation. The idea that the current state is the game as it was always meant to be is false. We are currently in an unintended side effect of years of linear expansions, Where old players and new players are 120+ hours apart based on story. There are less and less players reaching max story, and thus experiencing the content.

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Again, most of us fully understand that to much is going to be a problem. That's why we keep suggesting streamlining. If I understand your position, you want to ditch the MSQ necessity all together. That's not something I and a few others think is in the best interest of the game. It's a short term solution that's going to bring a whole lot of baggage with it.

Also, you again keep implicitly stating that the MSQ isnt content, and the only content that matters is end game. For a new player, all content from 2.0-current is new content. It's part of the game and a lot of it is enjoyable. There is plenty of time to get caught up and not left behind. There's a 3.5 month gap currently between major content patches. Playing even an extremely modest 1 hour a day average will get you almost caught up to our current state before a content patch drops. And I hazard the average player probably hits 3-4 hours average a day during hte week. This 120 hour number seems really daunting, but in reality, its not that much for an MMO.

From my experience, people tend to burn out when they try to force the issue. When they treat the game and it's content as an obstacle to be overcome rather than something to enjoy. Some of this issue is perspective.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Something is wrong, do nothing, and the game will suffer for it.

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Two things: We are suggesting that that this set up is actually healthier for the game due to what it offers. It's not at a detriment to teh game as a concept. Also, we have been giving suggestions: Streamline the MSQ in older content by possibly pulling some content out of the MSQ but leaving it in game as part of a side content quest. Where people are resisting you and people with similar position is that we dont want content to be accessible by level only. This would turn the game into WoW by default, and lead to the exact same problems WoW has.

As a point, when I mentioned that MSQ gives people something to talk about, it also gives everyone a relate able experience. Veterans know exactly what new players are in for, and understand fully the advantages and pitfalls of it. They know the points of the story that are great moments. This helps bridge the gap between the veterans and new players effectively. In fact, a common complaint is how easy the 2.0 content has gotten and new players arent as skilled as a result. The 'dumbing down' of the game by syncing to HQ gear standards, thus making things easier (and more like WoW in that regards), has actually caused some friction between new players and old ones already.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Only 2.5% of charachters have reached 4.1 story as of april. Even assuming the average player has 10 charachters, thats still only 25% of the population. and i doubt the average player has 10 charachters.


https://ffxivcensus.com/#top

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I don't think that proves your point though - as in they are where they are because they don't like/are getting bogged down by the MSQ.

Just relating my personal experience, I recently returned, just finished ARR (oh my gosh, that ending was amazing - yes lots of long cutscenes and they were fantastic!). I was so completely immersed in the story and wanted to know what happens next!

And now I'm almost finished with HW, and I am still so immersed in everything going on. And I still have another expansion to look forward to, before Shadowbringers!

This is definitely a story-centric MMO (imo), and it's really the reason I came back. Plus, the new zones in HW show so much creativity and originality - love them! And it's great to get flying halfway through (or thereabouts) so that you can really really appreciate the improved movement in the zones (after having traversed them on foot for many quests).

I have lots of alts that I created on multiple servers but really don't play. If you look at characters on Lodestone, people save names on multiple servers, all level 1. I believe there are a lot of created characters that aren't consistently played. If these characters are included in that census, then that data is really skewed. (imo)

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Story locks may seem counter intuitive, but homogenizing all MMOs to be the same but with a different paint coat will hurt more than making them stand out for their uniqueness. MMOs that tried to copy WoW ended up failing. MMOs that set out to do their own thing were more successful. In this case, I feel the MSQ and world building is a selling point, not a detriment. Because despite it being supposedly so bad, the game has r
emained pretty solvent.

Again, most of us fully understand that to much is going to be a problem. That's why we keep suggesting streamlining. If I understand your position, you want to ditch the MSQ necessity all together. That's not something I and a few others think is in the best interest of the game. It's a short term solution that's going to bring a whole lot of baggage with it.

Also, you again keep implicitly stating that the MSQ isnt content, and the only content that matters is end game. For a new player, all content from 2.0-current is new content. It's part of the game and a lot of it is enjoyable. There is plenty of time to get caught up and not left behind. There's a 3.5 month gap currently between major content patches. Playing even an extremely modest 1 hour a day average will get you almost caught up to our current state before a content patch drops. And I hazard the average player probably hits 3-4 hours average a day during hte week. This 120 hour number seems really daunting, but in reality, its not that much for an MMO.

From my experience, people tend to burn out when they try to force the issue. When they treat the game and it's content as an obstacle to be overcome rather than something to enjoy. Some of this issue is perspective.



Two things: We are suggesting that that this set up is actually healthier for the game due to what it offers. It's not at a detriment to teh game as a concept. Also, we have been giving suggestions: Streamline the MSQ in older content by possibly pulling some content out of the MSQ but leaving it in game as part of a side content quest. Where people are resisting you and people with similar position is that we dont want content to be accessible by level only. This would turn the game into WoW by default, and lead to the exact same problems WoW has.

As a point, when I mentioned that MSQ gives people something to talk about, it also gives everyone a relate able experience. Veterans know exactly what new players are in for, and understand fully the advantages and pitfalls of it. They know the points of the story that are great moments. This helps bridge the gap between the veterans and new players effectively. In fact, a common complaint is how easy the 2.0 content has gotten and new players arent as skilled as a result. The 'dumbing down' of the game by syncing to HQ gear standards, thus making things easier (and more like WoW in that regards), has actually caused some friction between new players and old ones already.

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i never claimed msq isnt content, merely its not content that everyone wants before they do other content.

Also, i am not saying endgame is all that matters, i fact i think endgame is overated, but i think msq is a very poor gate for all that other content, dungeons, raids, side maps, jobs, etc.

msq doesnt give everyone a common standpoint because some% of them quit the game, another % pressed x through it all, and another % bought a scenario skip.

out of a goup of say 20 people from ffxi, 10 people read the story 4 quit 2 read part then skipped and 4 skipped or bought skip potions. So, only 50% have shared knowledge, 40% i cant talk to about it, and 10% only know portions of it, and dont care that much.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

As I explain above, I personally feel the MSQ results in a different play experience. Unlike wow, where they dont care if you pass the lore, FFXIV doesnt do this. The trouble is what happens if you make hte MSQ optional. It will then default to being just like wow. You can skip content, and will be actively encouraged to do so (more so by the player base now), and shift focus towards the only thing being worthwhile being the end game. Atleast with MSQ being waht it is, everyone plays it, experiences it, and understands it. The world has more meaning, and the MSQ gets you invested in something other than end game.

Im not saying the MSQ is perfect, or that it doesnt need some level of pruning. I fully understand that 3 or 4 xpacs from now, expecting players to have to play from the start of 2.0 to current is going to be a bit much. Streamlining will be necessary. But there is a difference in streamlining and flat out making the MSQ a glorified side quest that most start players will skip based on end expectations from other MMOs and some of the veterans here.

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I totally understand wanting to do what is best for the game, but I can't follow your train of thought. Following the story is already optional. While you're required to play through the MSQ to unlock content, you don't have to absorb anything the game tells you, and not everyone does. For some players the experience that the MSQ adds is seeing the skip cutscene dialogue a lot. The players don't skip aren't necessary anti story anyway, they just may have other priorities, or dislike the particular part of the story that they're in. The story doesn't have to be the sole source of meaning in the game world either. It certainly wasn't for me early on. I wasn't given much reason to care about the story until HW honestly, and that's a sentiment I've seen a lot of people share. Interacting with other players has consistently given me a greater source of interest and immersion in the FF14 world than the MSQ has. That I feel that way isn't more correct or better than looking to the story for world building though and fortunate the game can accommodate both preferences.

An optional MSQ shouldn't lead to increased pressure to skip it either. In-dungeon cutscenes are more prone to that since they force other people to wait on behalf of a single person and new players aren't pressured to skip them very often anyway. Yes there is the occasional selfish player, but they will exist regardless. I'm also aware of the MSQ roulette cutscene change, but again it's a case of guarding against the few bad apples, rather than a universal occurrence. Those cutscenes are also on the extreme end of things length wise and forced on a party, unlike the MSQ which is a solo experience. A new player progressing through the MSQ doesn't hamper veteran players, so there is no reason for one group to pressure the other. You specifically mentioned that some of the veterans here would expect players to skip, but I don't see anyone pushing that. The desire to relax the MSQ requirement is about helping those people already wanting to skip without outside encouragement (which does include some new players). It's not about removing the MSQ from the game, or even making it less of a priority for the devs. Neither is it about changing how people progress, other than giving them more choices. That's how I see things at least.

For Open World to be interesting:

1.Make monsters unique. Yes, I know some people don't like memorizing stuff, but it would be fun to know each monster's abilities and weaknesses so we can put our skills to the test.
2. Make elements great again. What is the point of using Fire or Thunder if the damage is always the same? There is no elemental benefit/penalty in spamming an elemental skill because the damage is always the same no matter what. Add an elemental grid where players know what elements are beneficial/detrimental in the heat of battle. Spamming fire on Ifrit is not the way to do things!
3. AoEs, please come back! AoEs are non-existent in this game. They let you have one or two "AoE" skills, but we all know it's an illusion. Black Mage has become a Cooldown Mage, Bard is just...too limited to be a true AoE master and White Mages are in limbo. During ARR, AoE damage was really superb, even if it doesn't compare to classic MMOs where AoEs were decisive in battle and only certain classes were allowed to execute them. Streamlining this aspect has done more harm than any good.
4. Monster Drops. Some monsters have nice material drops, but it is not enough to promote open-world farming. Maybe adding more monsters to the field and removing monster reset (when monsters chase you for a couple of meters and they are so lazy, they just reset) can be a decisive factor since you will be able to farm multiple monsters at the same time and be more efficient about it.
5. Cooldown removal. Cooldowns are a hindrance to gameplay and class performance. Maybe they can lower some CDs or remove some altogether to make open-world battles more exciting and efficient.

Just my two cents... again~

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Originally Posted by Mirassou

I don't think that proves your point though - as in they are where they are because they don't like/are getting bogged down by the MSQ.

Just relating my personal experience, I recently returned, just finished ARR (oh my gosh, that ending was amazing - yes lots of long cutscenes and they were fantastic!). I was so completely immersed in the story and wanted to know what happens next!

And now I'm almost finished with HW, and I am still so immersed in everything going on. And I still have another expansion to look forward to, before Shadowbringers!

This is definitely a story-centric MMO (imo), and it's really the reason I came back. Plus, the new zones in HW show so much creativity and originality - love them! And it's great to get flying halfway through (or thereabouts) so that you can really really appreciate the improved movement in the zones (after having traversed them on foot for many quests).

I have lots of alts that I created on multiple servers but really don't play. If you look at characters on Lodestone, people save names on multiple servers, all level 1. I believe there are a lot of created characters that aren't consistently played. If these characters are included in that census, then that data is really skewed. (imo)

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I'm glad you like the story, but you miss my point. Ffxiv is, and should remain a game that has a lot of story content.

However a decent % of players need a more adjustable experience.

also, i recognize many charachters are fakes, but even assuming 90% of them are fakes, its still only 25% who made it to 4.1 Even throwing in a huge % error, say 50% off, you would still have a signifigant issue

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Originally Posted by Physic

I'm glad you like the story, but you miss my point. Ffxiv is, and should remain a game that has a lot of story content.

However a decent % of players need a more adjustable experience.

also, i recognize many charachters are fakes, but even assuming 90% of them are fakes, its still only 25% who made it to 4.1 Even throwing in a huge % error, say 50% off, you would still have a signifigant issue

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Well I appreciate your opinion, and all of the others who are posting here as well.

It's nice to be on forums where there is a modicum of civility left on the internet (I know people here can get heated, but really compared to other gaming forums it's sooo much better here).

I could see possibly streamlining ARR a little bit - but I would hate to see anything heavy-handed. I still feel the MSQ should be left intact, requiring completion to advance. I know some others who post here disagree with me, however.


Edit: It's good to remind ourselves that those of us who post on these forums represent a very small % of players of the game. Many players never come to game forums at all, so we do tend to exist in an echo chamber here. I always try to remember that when there are a lot of intense and strident threads and posts popping up from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Physic

i'm not saying remove story and context from dungeons/raids/alliances.

i'm saying have an option players must seek out, to remove msq lockouts for multi player content. Msq is a poor, non adaptive means of gating players from each other. Especially after like level 30-45 when the mechanics of the game world is basically the same from that point on.

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If you make it optional, then the context is lost. Part of the context is that it's not optional because there is some order to which you (or your character) have to experience them. Even if I still do the story quests, just knowing that it's actually optional content is enough to change the context.

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Story wise it doesnt even make sense that everyone be in these dungeons for the same reason, So i dont see how other players motivations/knowledge is worth them quitting the game, so you can play with msq heads, tenacious story skippers, and people who buy potions.

I can see how many more players would opt out of msq if there was an option, but that tells you they really never cared about it. I can see people saying the context is less compelling without context, but we are talking about an option specifically for players repelled by the way that context is delivered.

I'm not going to suggest cutting up msq to make it more streamlined, because that messes it up for those who loved it; of whom there are apparently many.

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My argument is not about other players, though, but about me. As I've said in the past, I usually don't much care about side quests, and making MSQ optional would make it not MSQ, but instead, just be a long side quest. Part of its appeal to me is that it's central to the game. That makes me motivated to learn about it.

New players who are not motivated to do MSQ now can currently pay around $25 (which is around 2 months' worth of subscription) to skip much of it. On the other hand, there is nothing that can "fix" making optional content as interesting for me as it could be other than making it not optional as it is currently.

God I am terrible at being succinct...

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Originally Posted by Physic

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Except SE doesnt see this as an issue. Which brings up the important point: What are you comparing this to? What is the retention rates in other MMOs? Merely stating only 1 in 4 make it to the end MSQ doesnt mean much if you cant give that context to other MMOs. Then you have to factor in the turn over rate. How long people actually stay invested in the game. Then there is the point of measuring new players which skus the infomration on FFXIV census. You see for the census to consider you an active player, you need to reach a certain quest. Since its aggregated about monthly, you may get influxes of new players who wont register as being active, but will pop the total population number up.

My point isnt that the census data is invalid, but that its a very rough look at the situation. And it doesnt factor in to your point about player counts dropping because of two things: It doesnt tel us what the market norm is (so 1/4 might actually be really good rates), nor does it correlate that people leave the game due to the MSQ and gating broadly. Or how long people are remaining invested in the game. More people may reach end game in WoW, but invest far less time overall in the game.

These are things that SE probably does know and take into account. And if it was provable that the MSQ was causing massive drop out, or atleast a good correlation between the two, there would be changes to address that. But that doesnt seem to be the case currently.
ake it. And that will affect the game long term. Usually in terrible ways by the trends weve seen in other MMOs.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Snip.

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I think the part youre not catching onto is what player trends are. Currently, you dont have to pay 1 iota of attention to the MSQ. However, you still have to go through it. The incentive to speed through it is greatly muted because of three reasons: The fact you have to invest time into doing it is one part of it, so people will naturally be a bit more inclined to see what the fuss is about if they have to take the time to do it (which then creates stronger long term investment generally.) The second is that older veteran players have also played through the MSQ, understand it, and see both its merits and pitfalls, and will generally advise new players to take part in it out of both interest and pragmatism. It's pretty much (at its most pragmatic) "You cant skip it so you might as well enjoy it." Lastly, with the game being structured around the MSQ and it's importance, ignoring it becomes a little problematic when further down the line things happen and the player has no idea what the hell is going on. (such as content patches.) This is important since raid, primal, and dungeon content is strongly connected to the MSQ in some capacity, and without progressing through it, itd make little sense why some of it is even happening. Again, you dont have to care, but most players do (a lot of it being because having invested time in the MSQ, they are invested in the world at large and its happenings.)

However, if you change it where the MSQ is completely optional (thus becoming a glorified sidequest), the barrier to skip goes away broadly. This changes a lot of the player expectations. No longer is the game structured around the importance of that MSQ, but now its focus shifts to end game content - Namely Dungeons, Raids, and Savages. For those to be worth time investment, good gear or glamours have to be provided. This starts the creep of volitility wiht elitism, because now it becomes a game about getting the shiniest gear, rather than experiencing a growing world. As time goes on, new players who just want to get to that tasty end game content will Skip the MSQ by default, because its the most pragmatic option. And theyll do this not understanding that the MSQ is pretty important and cool because theyll likely have expectations from other MMOs that treat story as nothing more than a side distraction. As more new players get added to the game, this trend will grow, and they will (as they become veterans) suggest to newer players to do the same thing they did. "MSQ isnt important. Its cool, but the end game is where its at. Just skip it for now to play with us and go back and do it later if you want."

Trend changes dont happen at once. They take time, but they will occur if you let them. I feel that this would become the end result and start the community looking a lot like WoW with its issues because this is more or less what happened with WoW. In WoWs earlier days, some of their backstory and lore were things you couldnt skip. You had to progress through them to some capacity. Youd complete a chain of quests which would lead you to the next zone. If you leveled to much, some of those quests wouldnt show up in the new zone. However, as Xpacs got more expansive, Quests and Lore got sidelined. Instead the focus shifted away from what happened to the next little slice of pie in the WoW universe. You can pretty much only do all of Hellfire Peninsual and part of Zangarmarsh and then move to Northrend. Anything else that happens is irrelevant. You spend a small faction of time in Northrend before moving again. People dont typically go back for the story in these zones cause 'its old and I skipped it/It's unimportant." The focus of most players is "Get to the most recent xpac as soon as possible to see what that offers." not realizing that there is a lot of content in wow theyre just skipping in their rush to max to 'play the new stuff'. The game encourages this with tons of Exp Boosted Gear, content thats unlocked by lvl and not questing, and progressing any lore as necessary regardless of whether you take part in it or not through segmenting the game into vignettes. The effects of BC have a very surface level of effect on WotLK, and so forth. This all leads to player toxicity long term. Players become less invested in the world theyre playing, focus only on new content, expect it to be handed over easily, and start competing with one another over Epics and how big their numbers are or how many kills in pvp they got. I think this latter part becomes especially true as the Devs have dumbed down teh difficulty in older content significantly to expedite the leveling process. This doesnt train new players to play the game and either get pissed when difficulty ramps up in the newer content, or hte newer content becomes also dumb and meaningless. And you cant give epics to easy content, or the more hardcore crowd gets pissed - why invest effort if its being handed out like candy in easier content. I also happen to believe what players really want is something that is fulfilling. Challenging content, while hard, makes most players feel better and like the game better when they accomplish it. If everything is a breeze, people dont see it as a challange to overcome and grow, but a chore to get out of the way in search of something that validates the reason theyre paying 15 a month. As a point, while you do get some elitism, its Savage players who struggle and push for clearing the tiers Ive noticed get the greatest satisfaction from the game. Players who just show up for glamours think the game is cute, but arent all that attached to it.

Changes that make things easier for the player dont make it better for the game necessarily. Again, take wow as an example: It didnt take to long after they implemented Queuing for dungeons from anywhere that the overworld became pretty dead. The most effective strategy became sit in town and queue for a dungeon, possibly do a few quests right outside a hub in the mean time. And people started complaining about how dead the world was as a result, not realizing that those same people were the ones yelling at devs to get rid of the older system where you had to unlock dungeons.

TLDR - Give the players a choice for an easy pass to everything and they will take it not realizing they may be hurting their experience with the game. This leads to toxicity and negative trends within the gaming community long term, as WoW i believe firmly demonstrates this. Having the MSQ helps create investment in the game and ensures the focus doesnt become end tier raiding/gearing.

I will continue to say it, game need to squish MSQ, unite 2-3 quests in one, this way we save so much time on meaningless running and it won't hurt the story itself. 600k subs is not enough for game to really improve and see brighter future.

Last I remember a good count for a subscription MMO was considered to be about 500k, which means this game already is doing pretty well being ahead of that. WoW is the exception to that rule that noone has been able to replicate, not consistently at least. Given that SE has still been adamant that they will not be moving XIV off the sub model they seem to be doing well enough.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Last I remember a good count for a subscription MMO was considered to be about 500k, which means this game already is doing pretty well being ahead of that. WoW is the exception to that rule that noone has been able to replicate, not consistently at least. Given that SE has still been adamant that they will not be moving XIV off the sub model they seem to be doing well enough.

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God I hope they don't remove it off sub ever, and make it buy to play or something.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Last I remember a good count for a subscription MMO was considered to be about 500k, which means this game already is doing pretty well being ahead of that. WoW is the exception to that rule that noone has been able to replicate, not consistently at least. Given that SE has still been adamant that they will not be moving XIV off the sub model they seem to be doing well enough.

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sub base is good, roughly 600k according to ffxiv census which only takes active subs that completed 4.1 according to them.

Nah the sub model is here to stay. They give us 2 options for subscription. Entry or Standard with Entry being limited to 8 characters 1 per world and then we got are retainers if you want additional which I pretty sure everyone has at least 1 paid for retainer. it adds up fast and its a nice chunk of money in a month. Lets not forgot about the Mog Station items either.

They update regularly, they do implement things the community wants when they can they also implement bad things.

Edit*

But the FFXIV team really does need to streamline the MSQ section, take 2.1 - 2.55 quests (this was all the patches between ARR and Heavensward. 100 quests is a bit too much for filler. Keep dungeons and primals locked as usual though. But the fetch quests those need to be consolidated.

This thread is literally pointless. Vote with your wallets, not with your time. If you enjoy the game, keep paying and playing. If you don’t, stop, and play something else you enjoy more.

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Originally Posted by CraftOs

This thread is literally pointless. Vote with your wallets, not with your time. If you enjoy the game, keep paying and playing. If you don’t, stop, and play something else you enjoy more.

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The thread itself is not pointless.

It provides feedback. Which is the literal point of the forums.

You can enjoy the game, but dislike certain parts about it. Or be concerned about the direction its heading in.

Thus, provide feedback in hopes that maybe these things might be improved upon.

The thread has BECOME pointless, because it has gotten stuck basically on an argument about how the MSQ is apparently driving people away from the game (Which had it's own dedicated thread made quite recently)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

The thread itself is not pointless.

It provides feedback. Which is the literal point of the forums.

You can enjoy the game, but dislike certain parts about it. Or be concerned about the direction its heading in.

Thus, provide feedback in hopes that maybe these things might be improved upon.

The thread has BECOME pointless, because it has gotten stuck basically on an argument about how the MSQ is apparently driving people away from the game (Which had it's own dedicated thread made quite recently)

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I agree with you. However, you and I both know, that the developers rarely look at the forums, and would rather not look at them honestly. Because of how many hours they will have to spend implementing things that people want.

Which is probably why community reps forward certain things *selectively*, and for a reason too I suppose. I totally agree with you but let me ask you this:

How likely is it that any of this will actually happen? Because they didn’t implement Viera and Hrothgar’s headgear pieces until AFTER people were extremely upset. And if that’s what it takes to make a change in the development team...then sadly, FFXIV will not change. It’ll stay the same. And I think you know that.

That’s why I say this is all pointless. You need to negatively affect their reputation to immediately make them care again. Unless thousands of people unsub and give this thread insane support, Yoshida and the devs will continue the same patch and expansion forumla.

I agree. SE needs to really innovate rather that continue repeating the same old patterns all the time. I don't mind grinds so much as the fact the grinds feel all kinda the same. I think also since SE doesn't have serious competition they just rest on their Laurels and get by with what they can.

As someone who has stopped right after the credits of ARR and I am at my path to catch up to merely access Ishgard (according to the Wiki page) I counted it: 71 Quests.

As I clicked into some, I noticed their utter uselessness.

It is often like this:
*I teleport to Mor Dhona. Then I access an instance (whatever Headquarter).
*Either Tataru or Minfillia is giving me random stuff that is not quit heroic and feels like I asked them about their daily routine.
*I check the map, figure out far-away location and mousewheel-click while the map is all over my screen, tapping the cursor buttons here and here to adjust my path.
*I get off my Magitech machine, right click the NPC, get some "Oh hai Warrior of Light, can you do bring this letter to some person in hearing range 5 meters from here?"
I* click the inventory, hand over the note to the guy 5 meter away. He says: "Mh, I gotta see Minfilia over this. See you there".
*I teleport back.
*Minfillia knows now all from that mysterious person. Me: USE YOUR LINKPEARL MAYBE NEXT TIME?!

What I feel like is that the writers wanted to have many "objectives" in the list to make these tasks seem epic. I mean, try it yourself:

Just click into one of those.

In my last days couple of days, I have had several hide-and-seek quests ("Find the 3 hidden refugee children", "Find the members to hand out their blue uniforms in Mor Dhona", "Find these random refugees in Ul'Dah" etc.), or the legendary "Sniff the Chocobo" just to find out it does not matter anyways how much perfume you put on them.

When I was going to glamour, I had to get a drink to that NPC where the other NPC was literally saying why she did not walk over here herself. So the game is self-aware.

Even when it has something to do with the story, it is poorly constructed. E.g. my current position: Snowcloak.

(Exaggeration, but you get my point)
Mission 1: Check Rumors
Mission 2: Tell the Rumors to guy on top of a tower (This one NPC...Forgot the name)
Mission 3: Talk to guy at the bottom of the tower - and report to guy on top of the tower
Mission 4: Talk with Merchant - and report to guy on top of the tower
Mission 5: Walk 3 minutes trough snowy land and one-shot two dudes in robes
Mission 6: Talk to guy on top of the tower and ask other NPC for advice
Mission 7: Other NPC wish to investigate - tell these news to the guy in the tower
Mission 8: ...

All this comes up with a fancy MISSION COMPLETED and reward window that makes it feel so off. Like these educational games for MS-DOS where there is always a voice going "Yeahhh! YOU DID IT!!" with every minor task...

This is not cool. I am happy that I got some of those 71 "quests" off my back now. (I just want to be ready for my job quest which takes place in Ishgard as far as I am informed....Nothing else!!!)

Sincerely,

https://imgur.com/kXOfaq9.png
Errand boy and a.k.a. Warrior of Light

As a new player I just don't get this game.
The gameplay is fun; the graphics are gorgeous; the combat is slow, but methodical and feels great when rotations are pulled off.

Then the part where I couldn't sell myself on another month after my first: The community.
I say something in Limsa Lominsa or Gridania asking a question and get ignored. But people happily talk to others' when someone asks to report a spammer or gold seller.
Or the near endless spam of emotes and people but the whole town feels soulless like I'm playing with NPCs that look like real characters.
I haven't posted much on the forums since I started and this will be my last post before I delete my account.
I'm not sure why Square Enix assumed players were getting stuck on the main story and quitting because of that, they should've made content to increase players talking to new players. (Yes, I joined the game because I thought it was a good time for it given covid and them cutting the fat on the campaign to get to the expansions)
I've managed to bare through it but can't get passed no one talking to me or at all.
Maybe that's the actual problem

I wish you all the best, sorry I wasn't cool enough to be a part of the gang <3

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Originally Posted by Helbara

As a new player I just don't get this game.
The gameplay is fun; the graphics are gorgeous; the combat is slow, but methodical and feels great when rotations are pulled off.

Then the part where I couldn't sell myself on another month after my first: The community.
I say something in Limsa Lominsa or Gridania asking a question and get ignored. But people happily talk to others' when someone asks to report a spammer or gold seller.
Or the near endless spam of emotes and people but the whole town feels soulless like I'm playing with NPCs that look like real characters.
I haven't posted much on the forums since I started and this will be my last post before I delete my account.
I'm not sure why Square Enix assumed players were getting stuck on the main story and quitting because of that, they should've made content to increase players talking to new players. (Yes, I joined the game because I thought it was a good time for it given covid and them cutting the fat on the campaign to get to the expansions)
I've managed to bare through it but can't get passed no one talking to me or at all.
Maybe that's the actual problem

I wish you all the best, sorry I wasn't cool enough to be a part of the gang <3

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I'd suggest visiting Balmung (fairly busy server) and seeing how you feel about your experience then, just keep in mind there will be some restrictions when you're a visitor to another world: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...de/worldvisit/ .

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Originally Posted by Helbara

As a new player I just don't get this game.
The gameplay is fun; the graphics are gorgeous; the combat is slow, but methodical and feels great when rotations are pulled off.

Then the part where I couldn't sell myself on another month after my first: The community.
I say something in Limsa Lominsa or Gridania asking a question and get ignored. But people happily talk to others' when someone asks to report a spammer or gold seller.
Or the near endless spam of emotes and people but the whole town feels soulless like I'm playing with NPCs that look like real characters.
I haven't posted much on the forums since I started and this will be my last post before I delete my account.
I'm not sure why Square Enix assumed players were getting stuck on the main story and quitting because of that, they should've made content to increase players talking to new players. (Yes, I joined the game because I thought it was a good time for it given covid and them cutting the fat on the campaign to get to the expansions)
I've managed to bare through it but can't get passed no one talking to me or at all.
Maybe that's the actual problem

I wish you all the best, sorry I wasn't cool enough to be a part of the gang <3

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There's also a novice network. Which is probably the most appropriate place to ask questions for newcomers. Sadly it isn't advertised well enough in-game.