Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

Our relative DPS stand compared to other jobs is even worse than before. I used to have ~6% lower DPS compared to the top melee (630 DPS against 590 DPS). Now, I'm at ~20% lower (1300 DPS against 1000 DPS). What's the point of a skill that takes off part of our mobility to keep us at a worse position we were before?

That, and all the other complaints about change of play style, clunkiness, wasted procs. We still have competitive DPS (even more if we can AoE or multi-dot) and groups want us for our songs, but we're not in the same spot we used to be. That's my main concern.

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Not to nitpick, but on dummy/faust, you should be hitting around at least 1100~ effective damage. Doesn't change the fact that WM doesn't actually increase our damage though; it only brings us to relatively the same gap in 3.0 as it was in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

Which makes me think: we had a diminishing of mobility, what did we get in exchange?

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I would seriously like to see an answer to this.
I don't play Bard, but I like to play with Bards, and I prefer them to be of the having-fun variety, like all my teammates.

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Originally Posted by Ilyanat

I see a lot of complaints about Bard which made me want to level it and see what the fuss is about. Also the whole "mobility" thing is really the most perplexing thing for a class that can poke the boss from the back of the room to me. Are there are any guides to playing post HW Bard?

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http://pastebin.com/uKxBsrCd

I wrote this up a second ago, though note the opener at the end I (mostly) use because I find it to be a lot smoother than pushing back my GCD for the first like 3 globals of the opener. I just listed the advantages it has over the opener I see most people using near the end. Purpose is less what you should do, and more what you should do and why you should do it because I feel the latter way of writing up a guide promotes better personal improvement, because players can take what they read here and apply it to situations themselves, allowing per-fight optimization to come better into play when you realize "wait, if this is happening, or it's THIS SPECIFIC FIGHT, this thing I read in this guide isn't actually a good idea"
if you google "krietor heavensward bard guide" he has a pretty good one lying around as well.

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Originally Posted by aabe

http://pastebin.com/uKxBsrCd

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Thank you so much!

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Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

I would seriously like to see an answer to this.
I don't play Bard, but I like to play with Bards, and I prefer them to be of the having-fun variety, like all my teammates.

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The answer is most likely balance, which is weird because BLM and SMN probably had the most back and forth out of ARR and yet the differences seem to have been doubled down on in HW. Yet, bard pretty much stayed where it was in desirability after the first nerf.

There are bards who like this current stance. Honestly, it's kind of like a veggie burger. Toppings are still the same... but some things are off. Some people like veggie burgers, many get used to them, and some hold a fiery passion over their loss of meat.

If balance was the reason there were other ways about going about it without removing the "physical" from bard's identity. Stacking buff has been suggested, though I think this would likely be too punishing with how much small movements are needed. Something similar to leylines could have done the trick. They also could have done something new entirely. Maybe borrow from their PvP balance and have WM create a ring 9 to 12 yalms from target that increases damage by 10% inside and halves damage outside of it.

But that's neither here nor there. This is what we got, and at this point I think most bards that are unhappy now are just wishing for some QoL changes.

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Originally Posted by dielray

The answer is most likely balance, which is weird...

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See that's what I keep thinking! I never noticed Bard as the big "This job is super powerful" thing. It was always the "This job is simple but versatile" one. Which was fine, because a lot of people like simple, and that's not wrong. Different people have fun different ways and the sheer number of elitist posters on here failing to realize this just makes me roll my eyes.

Archer is my first class, and went Bard, lvl 38 now. i love being mobile and it kind of worries me about losing some mobility but during dungeon runs i am not moving around nearly as much as I do soloing so in group events i dont see why it would be a big deal losing mobility to benefit the group. during boss fights i like sitting back and firing and moving when i need to but otherwise i try to stay in one spot

idk maybe i am doing something wrong by not moving around as much or maybe fights are just a lot hard and require more movement 50+

I've seen bard put out competitive dps on par with the melee in our group, who are not slackers. Also see people complaining about low numbers and they didn't bother to get their ESO weapon... which is kind of like, okay then.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I've seen bard put out competitive dps on par with the melee in our group, who are not slackers. Also see people complaining about low numbers and they didn't bother to get their ESO weapon... which is kind of like, okay then.

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Yeah, I believe that DPS wise BRD is now in better position than in ARR.
First, I was strongly against the new changes and I still miss the mobility, but there is no way to get rid of Minuet without losing a lot of DPS, which would make raiding much harder for every static I guess. And changing the gameplay of BRD later would be the same hell as the change we got in 3.0.

At this moment I just hope for some change in Wanderer's Paen and maybe more support skills later, that's all.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I've seen bard put out competitive dps on par with the melee in our group, who are not slackers. Also see people complaining about low numbers and they didn't bother to get their ESO weapon... which is kind of like, okay then.

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That's due to some reddit propaganda that buying the eso chest for accuracy is better, even though you're already at a good spot in accuracy going into patch... and almost every gordian drop you can get from A1+A2 has accuracy. lol.

But yeah, I know personally that BRD is in a better place than before, even in A3 savage where it's not really too "favored", it's pretty competitive. A1 is kind of pushed in their favor because multidotting, and A4 I seem to be a bit behind the melee.

A1S, at least with what I'm seeing from Havoc's spreadsheet, BRDs and MCH are still last of the DPS. Comparing BRD top scores to DRG(was in a good spot before, is in a good spot now) top scores puts us roughly around where we were before.

A2S. Yay AoEs! We do well here.

A3S. I don't have enough information to really say anything here.

(I think this is public, but if it isn't let me know and I'll remove the link)Havoc's High Scores spreadsheet, the only thing I've been able to find with any real info: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true#

Cool, so my post got deleted because it contained Lucrezia's parse screen or because someone reported me for it, IDK..
Well, can't really have a good discussion without numbers..

TL;DR of my long, unnecessarily deleted post:
IMO BRDs are in better position now, in average parties they can do more or similar DPS as some other DPS jobs.
If they deleted Minuet, they would have to lower the DPS, which is uneacceptable.
Any BRD that is currently having problem with his DPS might check KrietoR's guide and get WTFast (even for free, the trial is unlimited) if he is from Europe, it helps a lot.

Also dummy parses are kinda useless, in every fight you will have to move a bit or even stance dance (A1s add phase). Also every fight gives you the ability to multi DoT.
It is better for you to compare your DPS with others in real fights. If you don't raid, I would suggest Alex as Ravana and Bis EX are bit tricky.

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Originally Posted by dielray

A1S, at least with what I'm seeing from Havoc's spreadsheet, BRDs and MCH are still last of the DPS. Comparing BRD top scores to DRG(was in a good spot before, is in a good spot now) top scores puts us roughly around where we were before.

A2S. Yay AoEs! We do well here.

A3S. I don't have enough information to really say anything here.

(I think this is public, but if it isn't let me know and I'll remove the link)Havoc's High Scores spreadsheet, the only thing I've been able to find with any real info: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true#

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Not sure if your post will stay unchanged, because of the numbers, but I think that it shows that the difference is not so high (except SMN), atleast for A1.
If we compared the best people in A1, BRD is doing around 100 less than other jobs (except SMN) and is on par with NIN, which is kinda nice realising that we still have songs.

IMO if we compared % of difference before HW and after HW, I believe we are much closer to melees right now.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Cool, so my post got deleted because it contained Lucrezia's parse screen or because someone reported me for it, IDK..
Well, can't really have a good discussion without numbers..

TL;DR of my long, unnecessarily deleted post:
IMO BRDs are in better position now, in average parties they can do more or similar DPS as some other DPS jobs.
If they deleted Minuet, they would have to lower the DPS, which is uneacceptable.
Any BRD that is currently having problem with his DPS might check KrietoR's guide and get WTFast (even for free, the trial is unlimited) if he is from Europe, it helps a lot.

Also dummy parses are kinda useless, in every fight you will have to move a bit or even stance dance (A1s add phase). Also every fight gives you the ability to multi DoT.
It is better for you to compare your DPS with others in real fights. If you don't raid, I would suggest Alex as Ravana and Bis EX are bit tricky.

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That's really dumb. Your post was incredibly informative, non-condescending, and it could have helped plenty of Bards up their game. I hope that doesn't discourage you from posting more information in the future.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

That's really dumb. Your post was incredibly informative, non-condescending, and it could have helped plenty of Bards up their game. I hope that doesn't discourage you from posting more information in the future.

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Thank you for the support.
Well I never use numbers to harrass others, only to inform, so I hope I am not balancing on the edge of getting banned lol. xD

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

IMO BRDs are in better position now, in average parties they can do more or similar DPS as some other DPS jobs.

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From experience, they are not. Speaking of equally skilled players, the gap between BRD and other DPS used to be much smaller, relatively speaking. As I said in another post, it went from ~6% to ~20% DPS difference.

Of course, I think it ultimately depends on player skill more than anything, but we're not in a better position if the complexity of the job increased and the relative DPS decreased.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

From experience, they are not. Speaking of equally skilled players, the gap between BRD and other DPS used to be much smaller, relatively speaking. As I said in another post, it went from ~6% to ~20% DPS difference.

Of course, I think it ultimately depends on player skill more than anything, but we're not in a better position if the complexity of the job increased and the relative DPS decreased.

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I know, I replied to your posts with video and parse screens from different statics including mine. Unfortunately it got deleted so I am kinda unable to argue with you, all I can say for now is that I disagree..
In comparison with SMN the difference got higher imo, but in comparison with other DPSes and even melees I believe we are doing better, but discussing that is kinda waste of time, if we cannot provide evidence in our posts. :)

EDIT: My opinion is based on my own experience from HW raiding plus on parses from HC teams like Lucrezia and also other statics from Ragnarok.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

I know, I replied to your posts with video and parse screens from different statics including mine. Unfortunately it got deleted so I am kinda unable to argue with you, all I can say for now is that I disagree..
In comparison with SMN the difference got higher imo, but in comparison with other DPSes and even melees I believe we are doing better, but discussing that is kinda waste of time, if we cannot provide evidence in our posts. :)

EDIT: My opinion is based on my own experience from HW raiding plus on parses from HC teams like Lucrezia and also other statics from Ragnarok.

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Yeah, taking your post down was silly :c

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

Being mobile was never an aspect of the class to me. What made bard a bard was the actually skills we used(straight shot, bloodletter, venomous bite,windbite etc...), and that wasn't changed at all in HW. In fact, we got some QoL improvements(Iron Jaws) along with some nice new spells. WM doesn't limit us much at all.

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Mobility is an important aspect of the job, between kiting and being able to attack while repositioning. Sometimes telegraphs do aim for you mid-shot and it was nice to be able to continue setting up DoTs or buffs while doing so. Mobility may not be the sole defining aspect of ARC/BRD gameplay, but it is an aspect that lured people to the job. That's not mentioning the use of procs and how the job is designed around off-GCD procs and abilities.

The whole mess smells of shortcuts taken and poor implementation.

PS: Iron Jaws isn't much of a QoL change, especially when you consider that if BRD still had its mobility and instant shots, Iron Jaws wouldn't be needed at all as you'd still be able to fluidly refresh DoTs.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Not sure if your post will stay unchanged, because of the numbers, but I think that it shows that the difference is not so high (except SMN), atleast for A1.
If we compared the best people in A1, BRD is doing around 100 less than other jobs (except SMN) and is on par with NIN, which is kinda nice realising that we still have songs.

IMO if we compared % of difference before HW and after HW, I believe we are much closer to melees right now.

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I don't know why your post got deleted, I feel it contributed to the conversation without being antagonistic. My last post was actually originally in reply to yours, as well as pointing out that the Lucrezia parse was from their speed run of RavEx. Very impressive and worth a watch, but I disagreed on its use to show bard's placement. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmhmbzwASX0

Of the final coil fights, I think T10 was closest to A1S in terms of benefit to bard vs other classes, so I did some math using Havoc's spreadsheet just to get an idea. I took the top 3 of each job and figured bards damage as a percentage of it. Here is what I got:

Monk: T10 91.5%, A1S 93.9%
DRG: T10 96.6%, A1S 91.1%
NIN: T10 98.1%, A1S 99.5%
BLM: T10 99.3%, A1S 89.0%
SMN: T10 112.9%, A1S 82.6%

To me it looks roughly the same, but if you feel it's an increase that's ok too. I think we can at least agree on how awesome SMN is in A1S and A2S.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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Like I said, being mobile was never a draw for me to Bard. I liked the class because I was an archer, and besides, I never moved that much in fights anyways other then to avoid aoes. Bunny hopping Bards annoyed me. As for the procs, they still happen, and you still use them when you do. You just can't do two in a row anymore. Big Woop. They replaced it with other skills to use.

This was my dream idea for awhile for Bard, so I am happy they want this way. As for Iron Jaws, I still disagree. It is. We should have had this skill in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

Bunny hopping Bards annoyed me.

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Jump shots are used to fire off an ability while running away from damage or towards another target while maintaining forward momentum.

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Originally Posted by KaelDrakkal

Jump shots are used to fire off an ability while running away from damage or towards another target while maintaining forward momentum.

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Not 24/7 though. That is not archery.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I never moved that much in fights anyways other then to avoid aoes.

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I started firing off as soon as the tank pulled with Shield Lob/Tomahawk while getting into position. DoT's don't generate much aggro on initial impact, so that usually gives the tank time to solidify their aggro. It's also a more efficient use of time in general since once you get into position you can start doing your damage rotation. I pretty much did the same leveling MCH.

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As for the procs, they still happen, and you still use them when you do. You just can't do two in a row anymore. Big Woop. They replaced it with other skills to use.

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Ignoring the fact the job was designed around the quick use of procs. It is a big deal. You can't even say there was a prep period for this change because the job was left intact 1-51 and then you were saddled with WM. That the BRD story tried to pull the same crap it pulled with the 2.0 story (AKA "if you want to do good DPS you should feel bad") with the whole "a bard has to be versatile" bit doesn't really help.

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This was my dream idea for awhile for Bard, so I am happy they want this way.

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If you mean cast times, I'll have to say "go play BLM". BRD was built a around different set of mechanics and has not been done any justice by the expansion. People might have gotten used to it, but bad design remains bad design.

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Originally Posted by KaelDrakkal

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Bunny hopping Bards annoyed me.

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Jump shots are used to fire off an ability while running away from damage or towards another target while maintaining forward momentum.

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This is a legit technique. You certainly had to master it if you played a hunter in WoW since it allowed kiting and use of DPS skills. XIV's ARC and BRD were no different.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

Not 24/7 though. That is not archery.

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Begs to differ. Call it fake or staged or whatever you want, but it exists.

I just cleared A1s Last night as Bard and of course I am the lowest dps. It was in a semi pug but everyone is nice about Bard being the lowest but I am wondering how am I stacking up to other Bard. On oppressor my dps is around 788 while the rest of the dps are around 900 ish. The pt told me that their normal bard who they clear A1s with is around 800 dps. Is it normal for bard to be 100 less than your other dps?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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Begs to differ. Call it fake or staged or whatever you want, but it exists.

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I move into position first since you won't aggro the boss moving on the edge of the arena. The tank isn't even ready by then, so that argument depends more on your style.

I can agree maybe some more prep period might have worked. You still use the procs though. You just don't use two in a row anymore, so I still don't see the complaint for it. I did play BLM. What I wanted was a Bow Mage, and I got one.

And as for that Hack Lars Anderson, he is not even using a proper war bow for his techniques. That pull is 35 pounds while a War bow pull varied from 60 to 100 pounds, so please don't give me that guys crap when his arrows can't even penetrate skin that much.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

I just cleared A1s Last night as Bard and of course I am the lowest dps. It was in a semi pug but everyone is nice about Bard being the lowest but I am wondering how am I stacking up to other Bard. On oppressor my dps is around 788 while the rest of the dps are around 900 ish. The pt told me that their normal bard who they clear A1s with is around 800 dps. Is it normal for bard to be 100 less than your other dps?

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There's gonna be alot of ridiculously inflated numbers after this post lol, but my personal DPS for single target fights ranges between 970-1100 depending on the boss and crits. A good dragoon or monk can hit 1300+ in comparison. I'm at 188 with the eso bow.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I move into position first since you won't aggro the boss moving on the edge of the arena. The tank isn't even ready by then, so that argument depends more on your style.

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Shield Lob/Tomahawk generates enough enmity to hold the mob for a couple of hits. By the time that tank uses Savage Blade/Skull Sunder you'd be ready. The next logical thing for the tank to do is Rage of Halone or Butcher's Block, which have generous enmity multipliers. So the only way you're going to be ripping aggro from the tank by that point (assuming you used Straight Shot, Windbite and Venomous Bite while running into position) would be crazy crits or stacking cooldowns + crazy crits with Heavy Shot or Bloodletter. I've been on both ends of that equation (I main a tank and ARC/BRD was my "vacation from tanking" class), so at least based on my own experiences it does work.

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I can agree maybe some more prep period might have worked. You still use the procs though. You just don't use two in a row anymore, so I still don't see the complaint for it. I did play BLM. What I wanted was a Bow Mage, and I got one.

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A shoddily implemented bow mage. One ladden with clunkiness and a blanket mechanic it could have done without.

As I've said in the past, I'm not so much opposed to a change to BRD as much as I am adverse to how they implemented the change. If ARC had been reworked from the ground up to have cast times in their abilities and balanced to work as such, I wouldn't be here siding with the people who are not happy with WM. HW abilities would feel like natural growth to the job rather than something that was tacked on. The RNG combo finishers DRG has and dragon trance/aethertrail stacks on SMN are actual growth for those jobs. BRD did not get the same treatment.

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And as for that Hack Lars Anderson, he is not even using a proper war bow for his techniques. That pull is 35 pounds while a War bow pull varied from 60 to 100 pounds, so please don't give me that guys crap when his arrows can't even penetrate skin that much.

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I'm aware that he's using a short/recurve bow instead of a war bow. My point is that moving while shooting is a part of archery, and there's a real life analogue for it (not counting other examples like the guys that did it on horseback).

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

I just cleared A1s Last night as Bard and of course I am the lowest dps. It was in a semi pug but everyone is nice about Bard being the lowest but I am wondering how am I stacking up to other Bard. On oppressor my dps is around 788 while the rest of the dps are around 900 ish. The pt told me that their normal bard who they clear A1s with is around 800 dps. Is it normal for bard to be 100 less than your other dps?

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This might answer your questions:
Honor DPS Leaderbord

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Shield Lob/Tomahawk generates enough enmity to hold the mob for a couple of hits. By the time that tank uses Savage Blade/Skull Sunder you'd be ready. The next logical thing for the tank to do is Rage of Halone or Butcher's Block, which have generous enmity multipliers. So the only way you're going to be ripping aggro from the tank by that point (assuming you used Straight Shot, Windbite and Venomous Bite while running into position) would be crazy crits or stacking cooldowns + crazy crits with Heavy Shot or Bloodletter. I've been on both ends of that equation (I main a tank and ARC/BRD was my "vacation from tanking" class), so at least based on my own experiences it does work.

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I believe you. Doing that wasn't required though. You did it because you liked doing it.
The boss would still die around the same time with both ways done.

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A shoddily implemented bow mage. One ladden with clunkiness and a blanket mechanic it could have done without.

As I've said in the past, I'm not so much opposed to a change to BRD as much as I am adverse to how they implemented the change. If ARC had been reworked from the ground up to have cast times in their abilities and balanced to work as such, I wouldn't be here siding with the people who are not happy with WM. HW abilities would feel like natural growth to the job rather than something that was tacked on. The RNG combo finishers DRG has and dragon trance/aethertrail stacks on SMN are actual growth for those jobs. BRD did not get the same treatment.

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I do agree they could have done it better, but they didn't. It is also here to stay so bitching and whining about something that is not going to change isn't the solution though. The only thing you can do is offer some QoL improvements and get over it. I hate to sound harsh that way, but it's the truth of the matter.

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I'm aware that he's using a short/recurve bow instead of a war bow. My point is that moving while shooting is a part of archery, and there's a real life analogue for it (not counting other examples like the guys that did it on horseback).

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I still wouldn't consider that to be part of it(horseback aside) since the point of archery is to kill things at a distance with an arrow powerful enough to penetrate steel plate( and hunting) which he isn't dong. If he did it with a 60 pound and up bow, I would give him more credit, but he isn't.

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

Do the BRD and MCH find their power in supernatural or occult sources ? No.

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They have infinite ammunition, can put their hand on their quiver for a second and a half to make it hit harder, can sing songs that make things get hit harder by magic or refresh their party members or shield them from things like poison, can shoot an arrow which makes things take "wind damage" somehow, can launch like a hundred arrows with one shot while flipping upside down, and then twirl their hands in the air to repoison and re-... wind damage their target.

That sounds pretty supernatural to me.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

he is not even using a proper war bow for his techniques.

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And bards use giant harps.

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please don't give me that guys crap when his arrows can't even penetrate skin that much.

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You'd be in a better position to win the argument about moving while shooting arrows if it weren't for the fact that we still move when shooting arrows. Whether we move sideways or not, we still flip upside down to Wide Volley and still spin around for Windbite and still (well, we didn't before because we didn't have it) leap into the air, fire Empy Arrow, and do a spin in midair.

So, I mean, moving left and right might have gone away, but bards still practice ballet while shooting.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

You'd be in a better position to win the argument about moving while shooting arrows if it weren't for the fact that we still move when shooting arrows. Whether we move sideways or not, we still flip upside down to Wide Volley and still spin around for Windbite and still (well, we didn't before because we didn't have it) leap into the air, fire Empy Arrow, and do a spin in midair.

So, I mean, moving left and right might have gone away, but bards still practice ballet while shooting.

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I can deal with ability animations better then I can some person running in a giant circle while constantly shooting with no downsides.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I do agree they could have done it better, but they didn't. It is also here to stay so bitching and whining about something that is not going to change isn't the solution though. The only thing you can do is offer some QoL improvements and get over it. I hate to sound harsh that way, but it's the truth of the matter.

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There's not much QoL to be done to WM without changing parts of its design. I would also want to them to remember how unhappy this makes people in hopes of avoiding them pulling this crap with other jobs in the future. I'd hate to see them pull "a bard" with PLD, for example.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

There's not much QoL to be done to WM without changing parts of its design. I would also want to them to remember how unhappy this makes people in hopes of avoiding them pulling this crap with other jobs in the future. I'd hate to see them pull "a bard" with PLD, for example.

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I disagree. We can still get QoL without changing it. We can make the transitions between abilities smoother allowing the procs to be easy again. Like I stated previously, to me what made a bard was its abilities. It wasn't the fact we didn't have cast times. The same abilities are still there, and we use them almost exactly the same way.

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Originally Posted by dielray

A1S, at least with what I'm seeing from Havoc's spreadsheet, BRDs and MCH are still last of the DPS. Comparing BRD top scores to DRG(was in a good spot before, is in a good spot now) top scores puts us roughly around where we were before.

A2S. Yay AoEs! We do well here.

A3S. I don't have enough information to really say anything here.

(I think this is public, but if it isn't let me know and I'll remove the link)Havoc's High Scores spreadsheet, the only thing I've been able to find with any real info: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true#

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I guess I'll have to email 'em and pad up the numbers a bit, lol.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

I just cleared A1s Last night as Bard and of course I am the lowest dps. It was in a semi pug but everyone is nice about Bard being the lowest but I am wondering how am I stacking up to other Bard. On oppressor my dps is around 788 while the rest of the dps are around 900 ish. The pt told me that their normal bard who they clear A1s with is around 800 dps. Is it normal for bard to be 100 less than your other dps?

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871 here (no DRG in PT), iLvl 190. 100 DPS difference is completely fine in my opinion.
And yeah, if you compare the best players from the spredsheet there is difference of about 100 - 150 DPS, except the SMN, who is doing much better for now (I hope they aren't going to nerf them).

The best BRDs are doing much more than us though, so there is always space for improvement.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

871 here (no DRG in PT), iLvl 190. 100 DPS difference is completely fine in my opinion.
And yeah, if you compare the best players from the spredsheet there is difference of about 100 - 150 DPS, except the SMN, who is doing much better for now (I hope they aren't going to nerf them).

The best BRDs are doing much more than us though, so there is always space for improvement.

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Yup. A1 pug I joined tonight and I had 1160 when we wiped to enrage, not even skipping the last jump which most groups do now with gears.
1200 is attainable as BRD in there.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I disagree. We can still get QoL without changing it. We can make the transitions between abilities smoother allowing the procs to be easy again.

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Taking the ability apart, there's very little that can actually be tweaked (cast time of ability, damage bonus, cast time added to shots). Realistically speaking, the devs have already done what they could while leaving the ability untouched by making it instant and buffing the damage bonus. Anything beyond that would involve a bigger change.

I kinda feel way too many here are focusing way too much on the dps and numbers.

While I am new to the game and my bard is only 53, what I'd hope they'd work on is the overall clunkiness of the class. Make it more responsive to play the class as a whole instead of just trying to alter things with numerical changes.

While the loss of mobility is regrettable and I'll admit its a big playstyle difference to get used to. We still have the option to stancedance. I just hope they'd be able to figure out a way to make the playstyle a bit more enjoyable under the effect of WM compared to now.

But that's just my two cents.

i said this before i say it again thx to WM and those cats times we get from it the BRD does simply not feel unique anymore that would be my issue. dps wise its ok but i dont want to play a mini version of BLM cause lets be honest here thats what BRD is now.

we got faster cast times and get less dmg out for them and thats it. yes we have the songs thats just normal grp support every class got some of that.

plus the fact that BRD does not feel smooth to play with if SE got rid of our ridiculusly long cast animations it might help to get smooth gameplay like BLM has already but if i have 1.5 secs to rdy my shot why do i need another second to actually shoot the damn thing.(yes i know its not that much but it feels like that)

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Originally Posted by aabe

Yup. A1 pug I joined tonight and I had 1160 when we wiped to enrage, not even skipping the last jump which most groups do now with gears.
1200 is attainable as BRD in there.

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With or without Disembowl? I'm very lucky to get 1.1k, and that's if I'm prioritizing IJ when adds come out and I don't have to move too much.

On another note, I've been testing out multiple openers, trying to find if one averages out better than the others. Currently I'm averaging between 1,050-1,100 without Disembowl, 1,150-1,200 with (weird too... I thought it'd be a higher increase). I'll post my results later, along with my gear choice, but can you guys compile as many openers you know of? I'm going to at least average each opener with 20 results.