OMG Give us an AOE heal that is not worthless!

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Originally Posted by BrodyAlgana

lol what EVERYONE is missing is this: Scholar is not SUPPOSED to be as powerful as White Mage - not with direct healing anyway. White mage is... well white mage! Haven't you ever played a Final Fantasy game before? White Mages were healing GODS! I can't believe im saying this, but, Working as intended!

CURE V - swoon!

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Post the link from an official source plz.

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Originally Posted by BrodyAlgana

I don't want more than one Scholar. White mage and scholar were intended to work best together. YES you CAN do stuff more easily with two white mage than with two scholars, because Conjuror's only real job is healing - so of course it is the more powerful healer. Arcanist has a choice of two jobs - healer or dps, so they are not as strong healer - Conjuror has only one choice in advanced jobs - white mage. While not a Square employee, I would guess that is how they intended it to be. I do agree with some other forum posts that they should make the pet UI better.

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Having two job choices is not an excuse. At some point they will add more jobs and more than likely each class will have 2+ options. When CNJ has 2 options (maybe red mage) will they gimp WHM to make up for it lol? I like the SCH the way they are but it would be nice to be able to run 2 in a group. WHM and SCH are the perfect compliment as you say but you can run 2 WHM and not 2 SCH. That is a problem.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

LOL 550 and 100 Regen. No.

Resummoning can be instant with quickcast. If you want the burst, pay the price. Will it make having to 2 SCH worthwhile? It will overcome the burst argument and make stacking them reasonable. They could both detonate and get a raid right back up in health.

Problem solved. You have a small issue, you aren't going to be able to milk it and get undue buffs. It needs to be addressed out of fairness... no more, no less.

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Are you butthurt or something, why so mad? I am not asking for anything, if you go back to any of my posts I think SCH is fine. I am simply saying that exploding the fairy is not going to fix the fact that you only need 1 SCH in any given fight. WHM has a 550 AoE heal. Yet you laugh. Are you worried that they are going to buff SCH a little bit and u gonna lose your spot lol. Why do you care if SCH were to get a buff that would make it possible to have 2 in a raid? Lol fairness, are you 5 years old? I am completely fine with SCH being a tank healer, that is what I expected when I saw how the class was unraveling as I played. Some poeple would like for the class to compete with WHM for a raid heal spot too. I can't say they are wrong or right as SE has never really said anything other than WHM will be more versatile.

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Originally Posted by Ruprect

All I am saying is that exploding the fairy for 400 potency heal is not gonna make having 2 SCH in your group worth while. Maybe a 550 potency heal and 100 potency hot for blowing up the fairy would work, as re summoning the fairy is a 6 sec deal so the overpower would be a one shot oh shit deal. And no I do not think it would screw up mechanics. Having the shield stack on Succor only would make our AoE heal on par with a WMG's.

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LOL 550 and 100 Regen. No.

Resummoning can be instant with quickcast. If you want the burst, pay the price. Will it make having to 2 SCH worthwhile? It will overcome the burst argument and make stacking them reasonable. They could both detonate and get a raid right back up in health.

Problem solved. You have a small issue, you aren't going to be able to milk it and get undue buffs. It needs to be addressed out of fairness... no more, no less. (Maybe 10 seconds of spell haste would also be appropriate... that is more than fair)

WHM has better AoE heal. Scholar has better single target heal.
WHM has regen. Scholar has dmg mitigation and healing buff.
Scholar has Lustrate which will save the day. If it is a really dire situation. I will Succor. Active Dawn and Rouse. Swiftcast another Succor.
If everyone is hurt and Dawn is on CD. You can Aldo the tank. Physick someone, pet will help with Embrace. If tank get spike then Lustrate.

AoE Heal will only make the class easier to play which in my opinion not needed. Scholar has a very secured place on raid. I haven't seen a lot of Coil Group without a Scholar. Same can be said about WHM and that just mean there is class diversity. I don't know why you want AoE heal anyway. In raid, let's WHM do the dirty work. In 4 man, there is rarely if any situation Scholar cannot handle the dmg.

Yawn

Player skill > Job

Just throwing this out there, as a tank I've never been dropped by a SCH where a WHM wouldn't have dropped me as well. The significance of this observation is that the WHM and SCH mentioned are the same person, who has no trouble as SCH that he doesn't as WHM.

If there is a practical difference between the two classes when all is said and done, I have yet to see it.

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Originally Posted by Colyo

If there is a practical difference between the two classes when all is said and done, I have yet to see it.

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AOE healing efficiency. SCHs are about less than half of WHMs in that regard in practice, while both jobs can deal with any other situation with similar satisfactory results.

Not saying the should be equal, but a 100%+ difference is a bit much when there's no real difference between them effectively dealing with anything otherwise.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

AOE healing efficiency. SCHs are about less than half of WHMs in that regard in practice, while both jobs can deal with any other situation with similar satisfactory results.

Not saying the should be equal, but a 100%+ difference is a bit much when there's no real difference between them effectively dealing with anything otherwise.

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Not completely true. One could argue a substantial difference in tank healing that favors SCH. You use "effectively" very loosely here. Either class can "effectively" deal with either type of healing. Each one is optimal for each type of healing.

Right now succor feels underpowered but i can see why they dont want it to be just like a medica from a whm. Why not just make it instant cast that way its not too powerful but it is spammable. SCH dont need to be WHM clones, make us different and keep it that way.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Not completely true. One could argue a substantial difference in tank healing that favors SCH. You use "effectively" very loosely here. Either class can "effectively" deal with either type of healing. Each one is optimal for each type of healing.

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You're going to have a hard time convincing people the differences in tank healing does in fact justify having less than half of a WHM's AOE healing strength, though. Unless we're getting fights where the most optimal tanks get bursted so fast, and often that lustrate is the only way to keep them alive.

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Originally Posted by chumsy

Right now succor feels underpowered but i can see why they dont want it to be just like a medica from a whm. SCH dont need to be WHM clones, make us different and keep it that way.

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There could be other, more creative ways to bridge the gap.

Just that passing along medica would be the lazy game developer's/programmer's solution. Humans like convenience, and the easy way out naturally. That and I've taken programming classes... it can be really annoying to backtrack through code to say the least.

Scholar and White Mage have different tool kits. Succor fits in fine with the tool kit we're given. You can't look over at another class and do 1 to 1 comparisons of abilities.

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Originally Posted by Sebastianaru

Scholar and White Mage have different tool kits. Succor fits in fine with the tool kit we're given. You can't look over at another class and do 1 to 1 comparisons of abilities.

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No one is doing this. Read everything that has been said. If a SCH is caught in a situation where he needs to heal his entire group, Succor is simply not optimal. Can you do it? Sure, but so is dps not taking unnecessary dmg and that happens. If wasting a crap ton of mana for little healing isn't a big concern or wasting 50% of a spells effectiveness doesn't bother you personally, then this isn't a conversation you need to partake in.

Picture this scenario. Group takes dmg, whm casts medica 2 followed by medica 1. Ask yourself why they didn't chain medica 2.

Now picture this scenario. Group takes dmg, sch casts succor followed by.. succor?

If it is not efficient to chain Medica 2, why is it ok to chain Succor?

This is the problem. Succor = Medica2, what I need isn't medica2 but medica1.
We have Physick as a single target option when we don't need a shield, an aoe option for when we need raw throughput and not a shield is what 's missing from our kit.

I haven't gotten to end game content on my scholar yet, but here's the only thing fix I think needs to be made:

Make it so Steady only auto-uses Embrace.

Get rid of Attack and Obey, they just over complicate the controls. Replace them with a "Do Nothing" stance, for times when people need to have their pets not do anything. Then people would just go between Guard (auto attack everything), Steady (auto attack main ability - Embrace), and "Do Nothing"

Then we can control when Eos does all her nice things, which would help out with the AoE healing a lot.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

Do not put words in my mouth

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Why mention it then?

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Yeah... because WHMs only cure once every 30 seconds.

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Yet you still had to mention WHMs get it for free despite the fact ACN has essentially free MP. Again, why mention it?

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Either way, irrelevant. That's not the point of this thread.

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Exactly, so why don't we both stop mention things irrelevant to the thread and go back to the Succor topic.

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I know how the shields work. Do you?

I have a hard time believing you play SCH at this point.

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Enlighten me, o wise one! Sarcasm aside, I stated my view on how shields work in the same post you are picking apart. Am I wrong? If you think so, then explain what is wrong about my understanding, don't just go into "i know something you don't" mode. It doesn't help proving your point, nor disproving mine, so the discussion won't proceed.

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Tell that to someone else. I'm more likely to chastise someone not micro-managing the fairy.
A SCH can efficiently heal 2 people at once. A WHM can efficiently heal 8 people to full in 2-3 spells. Succor alone for AOE healing is bad.
Need I spell it out even more?

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If we had Succor alone, yes. But we have Succor while fairy casts embrace, and we have Physick while fairy cast the next embrace. Both times at the member with the lowest hp. So if you coordinate the two SCH (if you're adamant on sticking to the 2xSCH scenario), one casts Succor, the other spot heals the rest. Yes, WHM is easier, but at the same time WHM generate much more enmity by overhealing while topping off party members who had lower HP.

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People are so adamant against giving SCHs a humble buff on the grounds of 'class stacking is silly', it's almost like they'd rather see WHMs get brought down a peg instead, because WHMx2 as arguably just as good as, or even better than SCH+WHM.

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I am not against a buff per se, I'm against stacking shields. The idea of absorbing the shield into healing points on next cast I do like, though. People will go the lazy way anyway, hence 2xWHM being better because they are more stable. The problem is though that if they buff SCH, it won't end up exactly the same as WHM. It will either be still "less" good than a WHM or it will become more suitable for stacking. Which in turn will make the WHM faction scream for a buff/SCH nerf. It's a never ending spiral.

As a 50 SCH doing the Coil, I will weigh in. First off, SCH are much better tank healers than WHM. If tanks in the coil aren't screaming for a scholar to heal them they are idiots. In order for a WHM to have the same effect on their tank, they have to first top the tank up, then cast stoneskin. 2 casts for the same effect as a single SCH cast. Wait till the first boss in the coil when each tank is getting hit for 25-30% every 3 seconds and see which class is the better tank healer. Especially considering WHM's can't regen mp as well as SCH.

If they improved Succor, it would make SCH to good compared to WHM. As it is Succor is awesome for what it does if played correctly with a WHM. The Scholar should always be on the MT, succor should be used as a supplement to shield the raid while a WHM does Medica/2 to top the raid off.

No class is best at everything, which an improvement to succor would do just that.

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Originally Posted by IraVehementi

As a 50 SCH doing the Coil, I will weigh in. First off, SCH are much better tank healers than WHM. If tanks in the coil aren't screaming for a scholar to heal them they are idiots. In order for a WHM to have the same effect on their tank, they have to first top the tank up, then cast stoneskin. 2 casts for the same effect as a single SCH cast. Wait till the first boss in the coil when each tank is getting hit for 25-30% every 3 seconds and see which class is the better tank healer. Especially considering WHM's can't regen mp as well as SCH.

If they improved Succor, it would make SCH to good compared to WHM. As it is Succor is awesome for what it does if played correctly with a WHM. The Scholar should always be on the MT, succor should be used as a supplement to shield the raid while a WHM does Medica/2 to top the raid off.

No class is best at everything, which an improvement to succor would do just that.

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Your post on SCH being best tank heals has nothing to do with this discussion nvm that whm heal tanks just as well as sch, and they have a superior single target healing kit. There is zero reason for us to have a basic aoe healing option missing from our kit. We don't JUST tank heal, there are other aspects to this game.

If your whm are running oom it's because your bard either sucks or you don't have one.

As a 50 SCH doing the Coil, I will weigh in. First off, SCH are much better tank healers than WHM. If tanks in the coil aren't screaming for a scholar to heal them they are idiots. In order for a WHM to have the same effect on their tank, they have to first top the tank up, then cast stoneskin. 2 casts for the same effect as a single SCH cast. Wait till the first boss in the coil when each tank is getting hit for 25-30% every 3 seconds and see which class is the better tank healer. Especially considering WHM's can't regen mp as well as SCH. While a bard certainly can restore a lot of MP, there are fights that it will not be able to keep up with the mp going out for WHM.

If they improved Succor, it would make SCH to good compared to WHM. As it is Succor is awesome for what it does if played correctly with a WHM. The Scholar should always be on the MT, succor should be used as a supplement to shield the raid while a WHM does Medica/2 to top the raid off.

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Originally Posted by Alu79

Your post on SCH being best tank heals has nothing to do with this discussion nvm that whm heal tanks just as well as sch, and they have a superior single target healing kit. There is zero reason for us to have a basic aoe healing option missing from our kit. We don't JUST tank heal, there are other aspects to this game.

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Actually, according to what he posted as a SCH in coil, that is what you do.The point he and most people saying, "Succor is fine" are trying to make is about class diversity. If you want to be better at healing an entire group of people then play a WHM which has 2 group heals. If you want to play SCH then you have to learn to control your pet ( which does work but requires more hotkeys and micro skills ) and utilize your various skills and not just Physick, Adloquium, Succor, and "Bad pet AI". If you are having so much trouble with playing a SCH then it might not be the class for you. As it stands, I enjoy playing my SCH and would not like it to be a clone or very closely resembling a WHM. I am already working on my WHM and I find it completely different from SCH healing.

There has been topic after topic of people complaining about SCH needing to be buffed. It doesn't. Succor works for what its purpose is: to top people off and prevent damage. If you are spamming it during any 8 man with another SCH or WHM in the party you are probably the same people that keep your pet on guard without using the sick command on an enemy to stop your pet from casting all of their spells. Then you can tell it to heel so it follows you or placing it in a good location for it to heal people. Doing this once after you summon your pet sticks with that pet until it is dismissed or dies. Pet control is part of the class, same as SMN. You have a bar of 8 different ways to control your pet. They work and I use all of them. Leeches is your debuff removal. Yes you get it at 40. None of the instances, including Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak, up to that point need it. Just heal through the 20-40ish damage that the poisons are doing. If you feel that you lack AoE healing power, SCH pet micro is too hard, or do not feel you should have to wait till 40 to get your debuff removal then SCH is not the healing class for you.

By the way, the second paragraph was a general blanket statement to the many threads I see on the Healer Roles forums and may or may-not have been discussed in this particular thread.

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Originally Posted by Anshii

If you are spamming it during any 8 man with another SCH or WHM in the party you are probably the same people that keep your pet on guard without using the sick command on an enemy to stop your pet from casting all of their spells.

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There are a lot of fight were Scholar need to spam it to keep the party from dying especially with 2 SCH. Namely Garuda HM, Titan HM, etc. And by saying spam, i mean before i know a huge AOE will hit the group, i would pre-cast succor even when the team is in full health condition. Then i would cast again immediately after the team receive the AOE, and then once again, if the AOE Consist of several hits.

I notice, SCH is being gimped if we were group together, 2x SCH, 3x SCH is under diminishing return category to me right now. Most end game fight just got that much harder having 2 SCH. But 2X WHM would seems ok.

Off-topic, to prevent your pet form using all of their spell, it should be 'obey' and not 'sic'. Just saying as you said you used all of the pet command, you should know this already.

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

There are a lot of fight were Scholar need to spam it to keep the party from dying

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Ermm... No, not really. There is Titan and only a few cases where you have to "spam". And by spam I guess you mean use the heal Twice?
Hard indeed.
Maybe remember you have a pet also, use his cooldowns smartly, if you can. If not, learn the fight, and copy better Scholars. If you can.

So many drama queens here.

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Originally Posted by gigi_frana

Ermm... No, not really. There is Titan and only a few cases where you have to "spam". And by spam I guess you mean use the heal Twice?

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You don't want to cast it more than twice because it's a waste of MP to do more than that. You're wasting half of the spell each cast after.

What you're left with is a bunch of people still at halfish HP, and an AOE heal you don't want to use.

Do you see the problem? Your titan example is a perfect display of the issue. Thanks.



We don't have this problem with single target heals because of physick. Thankfully we're not stuck with nothing but casting adloquium when one person needs healing, but still has the shield, and we shouldn't be stuck with nothing but succor when multiple people need the healing while they have the shield.

Here is an even simpler version.

Succor is fine.

Shield mechanics are fine.

Succor with current shield mechanics with no alternative is not fine.

Adloquium with current shield mechanics with physick is fine.

Isn't there a video of people beating Turn 4 with 2 Scholars, and a Warrior? So shouldn't that mean that they're not as bad as everyone is saying?

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Originally Posted by gigi_frana

Ermm... No, not really. There is Titan and only a few cases where you have to "spam". And by spam I guess you mean use the heal Twice?
Hard indeed.
Maybe remember you have a pet also, use his cooldowns smartly, if you can. If not, learn the fight, and copy better Scholars. If you can.

So many drama queens here.

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1. Titan and only few cases = not really? as more and more end game content being introduced, i can foretell how AOE heal spam would be much worse.

2. Yes, i have a pet that cannot cast heal by herself when we are at max range. Yes, we can place her close to the tank or anyone we need her to heal, that would left her AOE heal out of range for the rest of the group. Boss with 'push' mechanism like those in Castrum, Ifrit would render your fairy out of position every 30 sec or so.

3. Our pet AOE heal does not have an initial heal, it is a HoT kinda heal. In dire situation like everyone is being spammed AOE dmg (eg: titan) how can you ensure your party member sustain AOE dmg?

4. Our Pet's AOE HoT heal does not stack.

Let me ask you a question, do you have a SCH? Do you run any end game content with 2 SCH and 2 SCH only? How do you find it? Answer this before calling anyone a drama queen. Btw, name me THE Better SCH that you mentioned having no issue with 2 SCH in end game content with heavy AOE dmg from boss. Show me how it is done, video proof maybe?

Before attempting to answer my question, please keep in mind why this topic is AOE heal and not single target heal. We do not say our heals are point blank broken, just AOE.

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

do you have a SCH? Do you run any end game content with 2 SCH and 2 SCH only? How do you find it? Answer this before calling anyone a drama queen. Btw, name me THE Better SCH that you mentioned having no issue with 2 SCH in end game content with heavy AOE dmg from boss.

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Yea I am a SCH and I did Titan a few times, once for me, then for friends who needed help. Always had a WHM that was able (smart). The AOE OMG PANIC HEAL THE DPS QUICK cases were never an issue. Never has a DPS died to lack of healing because we were unable to heal. There is no AoE dmg that can kill a decent DPS. There is enough time to heal.
Yea my AoE heal heals for about 310 when it does not crit, and it has a shield. 2x that + the WHM heal were more than enough.

If in the future they will add more challenging content where I will be unable to cope, then Fine, maybe I will agree that SCH needs a buff.

But for now, IMO:
- SCH Should NOT BE Equal to WHM.
- I think SCH is fine and complements the WHM in an 8 group very well.
- Yes the pet "AI" is shit, but the pet AoE heal + healing buff works well if you use Obey and you use it when it`s needed (for Titan when the heart dies for example).
- I do not agree with the evaluations that compare SCH with WHM in terms of healing potency. The class mechanics are different, IMO they should not be equal. I`m not the best at expressing in words what I think so don`t get too offended :)
- the Thread Title "OMG Give us an AOE heal that is not worthless!" shouts "drama queen / spastic" IMO (the situation is not that tragic, the game is new and the heal is not WORTHLESS OMG!!!1 panic).

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Originally Posted by gigi_frana

Snip~ Always had a WHM that was able (smart) ~ Snip

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Stop reading there, you just prove my point.

Next!

cool, have fun healing (but I guess you won`t) :)

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Originally Posted by gigi_frana

But for now, IMO:
- SCH Should NOT BE Equal to WHM.
- I think SCH is fine and complements the WHM in an 8 group very well.
- Yes the pet "AI" is shit, but the pet AoE heal + healing buff works well if you use Obey and you use it when it`s needed (for Titan when the heart dies for example).
- I do not agree with the evaluations that compare SCH with WHM in terms of healing potency. The class mechanics are different, IMO they should not be equal. I`m not the best at expressing in words what I think so don`t get too offended :)
- the Thread Title "OMG Give us an AOE heal that is not worthless!" shouts "drama queen / spastic" IMO (the situation is not that tragic, the game is new and the heal is not WORTHLESS OMG!!!1 panic).

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We never ask to be equal with WHM. Read or at least try to. we are asking to NOT be penalized due to being in the same class and were allowed to be placed in the same duty using DF.

This game resolve in 3 main role: Tank, DPS, Healer.

Tank and DPS: If you bring two of the same job (eg: PLD x2, BRD x2) they will not gimp each other.

Healer: Same goes to WHM for the above. BUT why SCH need to suffer the the gimp because we have 2 of the same Job?

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Originally Posted by gigi_frana

Yea I am a SCH and I did Titan a few times, once for me, then for friends who needed help. Always had a WHM that was able (smart). The AOE OMG PANIC HEAL THE DPS QUICK cases were never an issue. Never has a DPS died to lack of healing because we were unable to heal. There is no AoE dmg that can kill a decent DPS. There is enough time to heal.
Yea my AoE heal heals for about 310 when it does not crit, and it has a shield. 2x that + the WHM heal were more than enough.

If in the future they will add more challenging content where I will be unable to cope, then Fine, maybe I will agree that SCH needs a buff.

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Once a party with dual WHMs struggles as they are unable to heal tanks, then its all equal as dual SCHs are currently suffer heavy penalty against heavy AoE. Dual WHM heals better, dual SCH step on each other's toes. You need a WHM to take care of AOE, but a WHM actualy doesnt need a SCH to heal tank. Its a bonus, true, but not a deal-breaker. Thats where SCH fits in: a bonus to make a run smoother, but nowhere near necessary.

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Originally Posted by gigi_frana

But for now, IMO:
- SCH Should NOT BE Equal to WHM.

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Hopefully you're not implying one should be clearly inferior.

They should both be able to accomplish satisfactory healing in any situation with different tools. They don't need to be carbon copies of each other.

As it is right now, WHMs are at least 100% better in AOE healing, while SCHs have no glaring advantage in output at that level to warrant such a disadvantage. They can both heal just about any other situation with passable results, but when burst AOE happens, suddenly a SCH is less than half a WHM, even if you included pre-shielding, and sacred soil. Why?

That 100% isn't a random number out of the sky either. Medica alone heals twice as much as succor (the shield is irrelevant after the damage is done, and you know why) in the same window of time after one of titan's many burst AOEs. Succor takes twice the time and MP to do the same. Didn't even count medica ii, or a grouped up cure iii yet, so the difference is much larger than 100%, hence the 'at least' part.

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- I think SCH is fine and complements the WHM in an 8 group very well.

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Something isn't fine when there's something fundamentally wrong with them.

I'm pretty sure there's a better word than 'compliment' to describe that relationship.

A WHM doesn't need SCH, but a SCH needs a WHM to make up for the obvious weakness.

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- I do not agree with the evaluations that compare SCH with WHM in terms of healing potency. The class mechanics are different, IMO they should not be equal. I`m not the best at expressing in words what I think so don`t get too offended :)

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That depends on how people evaluate it.

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- the Thread Title "OMG Give us an AOE heal that is not worthless!" shouts "drama queen / spastic" IMO (the situation is not that tragic, the game is new and the heal is not WORTHLESS OMG!!!1 panic).

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Already agreed the OP is crazy. Not backing his demand for 600 potency aoe healing.

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Originally Posted by gigi_frana

- Yes the pet "AI" is shit, but the pet AoE heal + healing buff works well if you use Obey and you use it when it`s needed (for Titan when the heart dies for example).

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Not to discredit you in any way, and I'm assuming that's a typo, but in the spirit of providing accurate info : "Steady" will prevent the pet from using it's cooldowns. "Obey" will make Eos spam Whispering Dawn every minute and waste it's cooldown, so you wouldn't be able to 'use it when its needed'. On top of that, Dawn without Rouse or Illumination isn't all that impressive at all. So I assume you meant putting your pet on "steady" and subsequently using Rouse > Illumination > Dawn > wait 2 sec > put pet back on "steady"? Right? Because, apart from Succor, that is the only way you are going to provide any worthwhile AoE healing as a Scholar (once every minute).

What if we had Succors potency the same, but double the shield effect... So let's say you heal a person for 200hp then the barrier would nullify 400hp damage. I personally would be happy with this...

The only thing I agree to fix on Scholar is the Shield Stacking if multiple Scholars are in the same party/raid. Each Scholar should benefit from 100% of their spell effects.

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Originally Posted by Animation

snip

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Don't forget Fairy Illumination which buffs healing up by 20% on top of all this.
However, I don't agree that WHM needs a tune up compared to SCH. Both jobs are (apart from a few spells that need some proper look synergy wise) great at what they do.

For everyone here saying Scholar is inferior to WHM: Sorry but you play the wrong job then. It's simply another way of healing and not as straight forward a healer as the White Mage is.

Or like I just posted in the WHM vs SCH thread:

Both are very capable healers and both are great at what they do but it depends on the fight and situation the skills are compared in:

Steady, normal Healing: Both.
Both jobs have no issues keeping a tank alive. WHM has to be a bit more careful with GDC and spell cast times while the SCH gets the fairy backup. Regen helps but reaction time of the fairy is instant compared to lag issues a WHM might have to deal with.

Tank and spank: SCH.
WHM is capable, but SCH will put out more HPS with a macro'd fairy. Scholars with a macro'd fairy seem to be better at single target healing using basic spells by about 15% without factoring in CDs; however, I'm inclined to believe that they would still come out ahead their own CDs. This drops down to a 10% bonus during high throughput times, but again - without CDs and highly dependent on fight mechanics.

High Movement: slight advantage for SCH.
The fairy is automated. Regen is fantastic and roughly equivalent to the best single target cure bomb, instant cast, and costs less mana. The problem is that you have to be very aware of what's going on. You need to move, target, and cast at all the same time. Scholar on the other hand can move and let their fairy do the work.

Predictable Damage: SCH, but just barely.
Both classes can prep for incoming damage. WHM has stoneskin but Stoneskin is available to SCHs, too even though without the passive boost. The SCH shield costs less and is attached to normal healing spells. So a single SCH can pre-stoneskin before the pull or before a planned hit and throw their own shield up for a higher amount of mitigated damage.

Super Long Fights: The SCH has this one hands-down.
They have several mana efficient heals, 3 free heals for 20% HP each every minute, the fairy provides free heals, their procs are frequent, and Aetherflow accounts for ~1.6% of their total mana every 5 seconds (20% every minute). They also have more free heals, or energy drain for more mana returns. This is a huge benefit. Compare this to a WHM's refresh which gives ~.915% every 5 seconds (~33% every 3 minutes).

Burst Healing: WHMs outclasses by far
If you have someone dipping low as part of a fight mechanic, movement, or just general slip-up then you're going to want a WHM in your party. They have the highest HPS, and it's much easier to control the healing when they can turret.

Burst AOE damage - selected area: WHM.
No question - more bursty (but very MP intense) tools in the WHMs box.

Burst AOE damage - entire party/raid: WHM.
Better range on WHMs Medica II - Cure 3 is very situational

Continuous lower AOE damage - stacked: SCH.
Sacred soil for an immediate 10% bonus, and the fairy's aoe healing for tight groups make SCH the premier stacked healer. If Regen is not enough a WHM is forced to use high MP AoE spells that will lead to fast depletion of MP AND an insane amount of thread.

Continuous AOE damage - staggered: WHM.
This was too close to call. Both have AOE abilities. The SCH has more mana, and more instants to handle multiple scenarios. The fairy can also help by smart healing the raid.

Rollercoaster fights (intense healing, no/low healing, repeat) WHM.
The WHM is just better suited to respond to intense healing requirements. The scholar is still usable, but they'll burn more mana and GCDs doing it - especially when it comes to AOE.

Low healing required - DPS race: SCH, hands down.
The WHM has more burst damage, but the spells are too mana intensive. SCH can dot up, throw up cleric stance to have the dots do more damage, and then take it back down when it's time to heal. They can also swap to the utility fairy which will boost the skill/spell speed of actual DPS classes.

Emergency - someone screwed up - save the day spells: WHM, without a doubt
With an instant full 100% heal, 30% + healing CD, and they come with the possibility of an instant cure 2 (~40% health) or cure 3. A SCH isn't bad in their own right. They have their own version of holy shock (20% health, 3x a minute), but that's it. And it comes at the cost of other abilities such as energy drain or sacred soil.

Passive utility: Both.
WHM is better for high end content where you don't want to give up healing for protective utility. SCH is better for content where healing is less important, but you'll want to down the boss more quickly. You'll still want both in your group. Whitemage for the protect magic resistance buff (it's just physical when going cross class), and SCH for the heroism/bloodlust fairy, even though Fairy Illumination grants magic resistance, too.

Farmed fights: SCH.
SCH can put out more damage, provide more utility when incoming damage is less of a concern, and makes for a better hybrid.

Fights with enmity wipes: WHM.
The fairy can pull hate too quickly sometimes. It's not a big issue, but WHMs get Shroud of Saints. Doesn't really matter that much, though.

There is always room to fight over this or that but the differences are most of the time neglectable.

Also, lets not forget the great buffs the SCH fairies bring to the mix on top of no lag issue, no mp, constant healing. Of course the lag comes into play if you manually use the fairies.
Not every class needs to be equally good at the same things...and in the end it comes down to the party you are in and your playstyle.

A last note:
Scholars are proactive healers while White Mages are Reactive healers.
If you cast your Succor and Adloquium when a big hit already happened and not before that you are one step behind as Scholar. White Mage can react to damage while Scholar can prevent it. Playing a Scholar you are all about preventing damage and lower incoming damage by stacking all the tools you have, as a White Mage you are all about fixing the damage that has been done.

Also with the discussion about the General AoE heals from WHM vs SCH:
Yes we are discussing healing but the fact that EoS and Selene add not only quite powerful buffs but also do healing without any MP costs needs to be taken into consideration as well before people scream for the same heal potency on heals for both jobs.
I find SCH much harder to play than WHM, that's for sure and SCH need a better, more convenient way to control their fairies to make it less painful.
In the end the fairies are additional skill bars which don't cost any MP

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

snip

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That was one of the most thought out and reasoned posts I've seen on the issue. You opened my eyes to quite a lot. Kudos to you!

I don't know if you are being purposely disingenuous or if you really believe all that, but a lot of that is just opinions, assumptions or just plain wrong. And no one said SCH is inferior to WHM, we said our aoe healing is. Stop shifting the focus of the discussion and stay on topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

Don't forget Fairy Illumination which buffs healing up by 20% on top of all this.
However, I don't agree that WHM needs a tune up compared to SCH. Both jobs are (apart from a few spells that need some proper look synergy wise) great at what they do.

For everyone here saying Scholar is inferior to WHM: Sorry but you play the wrong job then. It's simply another way of healing and not as straight forward a healer as the White Mage is.

Or like I just posted in the WHM vs SCH thread:

Both are very capable healers and both are great at what they do but it depends on the fight and situation the skills are compared in:
No one has said otherwise, trying to have a big gaping hole patched up doesn't mean we think we are useless. Stop putting words in our mouths.

Steady, normal Healing: Both.
Both jobs have no issues keeping a tank alive. WHM has to be a bit more careful with GDC and spell cast times while the SCH gets the fairy backup. Regen helps but reaction time of the fairy is instant compared to lag issues a WHM might have to deal with.
Reaction time of Fairy is most definitely NOT instant. Regen craps all over the fairy in this regard. Also, liking the whm may have lag issue bit, cause you know sch never do right?

Tank and spank: SCH.
WHM is capable, but SCH will put out more HPS with a macro'd fairy. Scholars with a macro'd fairy seem to be better at single target healing using basic spells by about 15% without factoring in CDs; however, I'm inclined to believe that they would still come out ahead their own CDs. This drops down to a 10% bonus during high throughput times, but again - without CDs and highly dependent on fight mechanics.
Fairy cannot be macro'd. Most you can do is to drag the skills down to your hotbar. So to achieve your higher single target throughput, it involves two button presses each time, vs a whm slapping a regen on target and healing like normal. Not to mention that if a group member takes a bit of dmg, a regen on them and back to the tank > fairy+you healing the dps and taking focus off of tank. So whm aren't worse here at all. Oh lets not forget procs help too

High Movement: slight advantage for SCH.
The fairy is automated. Regen is fantastic and roughly equivalent to the best single target cure bomb, instant cast, and costs less mana. The problem is that you have to be very aware of what's going on. You need to move, target, and cast at all the same time. Scholar on the other hand can move and let their fairy do the work.
Again, that fairy cannot be trusted to auto cast heal as it will sometimes stand around daydreaming. You have to cast for it to get the most out of it meaning your attention is just as split as a whm.

Predictable Damage: SCH, but just barely.
Both classes can prep for incoming damage. WHM has stoneskin but Stoneskin is available to SCHs, too even though without the passive boost. The SCH shield costs less and is attached to normal healing spells. So a single SCH can pre-stoneskin before the pull or before a planned hit and throw their own shield up for a higher amount of mitigated damage.
What? Wait, what? Lol.. Lets use pretend that is is a true scenario shall we, considering your post it should be easy. Lets say 3k health, whm ss will shield 540 health, a sch ss is 300+ say 300 from noncrit succor shield and you get 600 points of shielding. How again is sch preshielding better than whm? Only times it is better is if Succor crits OR that succor is faster to cast than ss. That is it, but if you have the time to keep dps shielded, you are not far off of sch shields.

Super Long Fights: The SCH has this one hands-down.
They have several mana efficient heals, 3 free heals for 20% HP each every minute, the fairy provides free heals, their procs are frequent, and Aetherflow accounts for ~1.6% of their total mana every 5 seconds (20% every minute). They also have more free heals, or energy drain for more mana returns. This is a huge benefit. Compare this to a WHM's refresh which gives ~.915% every 5 seconds (~33% every 3 minutes).
Bard. I'll concede that we have longevity, but all you need is a bard and probable the only advantage we had goes out the window.

Burst Healing: WHMs outclasses by far
If you have someone dipping low as part of a fight mechanic, movement, or just general slip-up then you're going to want a WHM in your party. They have the highest HPS, and it's much easier to control the healing when they can turret.

Burst AOE damage - selected area: WHM.
No question - more bursty (but very MP intense) tools in the WHMs box.

Burst AOE damage - entire party/raid: WHM.
Better range on WHMs Medica II - Cure 3 is very situational

Continuous lower AOE damage - stacked: SCH.
Sacred soil for an immediate 10% bonus, and the fairy's aoe healing for tight groups make SCH the premier stacked healer. If Regen is not enough a WHM is forced to use high MP AoE spells that will lead to fast depletion of MP AND an insane amount of thread.
Sacred Soil is ok to negligible a lot of the time. The fairies hot is nice in this specific scenario but then you had to go and say if regen isn't enough.. If regen wasn't enough, neither is sacred soil+fairy hot. Which is it?

Continuous AOE damage - staggered: WHM.
This was too close to call. Both have AOE abilities. The SCH has more mana, and more instants to handle multiple scenarios. The fairy can also help by smart healing the raid.

Rollercoaster fights (intense healing, no/low healing, repeat) WHM.
The WHM is just better suited to respond to intense healing requirements. The scholar is still usable, but they'll burn more mana and GCDs doing it - especially when it comes to AOE.

Low healing required - DPS race: SCH, hands down.
The WHM has more burst damage, but the spells are too mana intensive. SCH can dot up, throw up cleric stance to have the dots do more damage, and then take it back down when it's time to heal. They can also swap to the utility fairy which will boost the skill/spell speed of actual DPS classes.
Selene is garbage and not worth the mana to bring her out. I'll concede that we have better ability to deal dmg cause of dots ticking while we are healing, but that's it. Selene is a joke. That fairy is not giving you lust. It is giving you 30% of you spell/skill speed stats and adding it back into those same stats.. For me that is .16% And they don't stack so even less reason to waste the mana on Selene.

Emergency - someone screwed up - save the day spells: WHM, without a doubt
With an instant full 100% heal, 30% + healing CD, and they come with the possibility of an instant cure 2 (~40% health) or cure 3. A SCH isn't bad in their own right. They have their own version of holy shock (20% health, 3x a minute), but that's it. And it comes at the cost of other abilities such as energy drain or sacred soil.

Passive utility: Both.
WHM is better for high end content where you don't want to give up healing for protective utility. SCH is better for content where healing is less important, but you'll want to down the boss more quickly. You'll still want both in your group. Whitemage for the protect magic resistance buff (it's just physical when going cross class), and SCH for the heroism/bloodlust fairy, even though Fairy Illumination grants magic resistance, too.
We do not have Blood Lust. I'll repeat what I said above incase it gets missed. What Selene actually does is adds 30% of your spell/skill speed stat (the stated stat on your character sheet) and just adds that amount into your spell/skill speed stat. That is it. For me it is a lil over .1% Infact I'm not sure you can say we have any passive utility. Eos's magic resist buff, situational it may be, beats all of Selenes "buffs" and this isn't even a joke.

Farmed fights: SCH.
SCH can put out more damage, provide more utility when incoming damage is less of a concern, and makes for a better hybrid.

Fights with enmity wipes: WHM.
The fairy can pull hate too quickly sometimes. It's not a big issue, but WHMs get Shroud of Saints. Doesn't really matter that much, though.

There is always room to fight over this or that but the differences are most of the time neglectable.

Also, lets not forget the great buffs the SCH fairies bring to the mix on top of no lag issue, no mp, constant healing. Of course the lag comes into play if you manually use the fairies.
See above x2 as to why we offer no buffs/utility.
Not every class needs to be equally good at the same things...and in the end it comes down to the party you are in and your playstyle.

A last note:
Scholars are proactive healers while White Mages are Reactive healers.
If you cast your Succor and Adloquium when a big hit already happened and not before that you are one step behind as Scholar. White Mage can react to damage while Scholar can prevent it. Playing a Scholar you are all about preventing damage and lower incoming damage by stacking all the tools you have, as a White Mage you are all about fixing the damage that has been done.

Also with the discussion about the General AoE heals from WHM vs SCH:
Yes we are discussing healing but the fact that EoS and Selene add not only quite powerful buffs but also do healing without any MP costs needs to be taken into consideration as well before people scream for the same heal potency on heals for both jobs.
People need to delete Selene from their minds, that thing is utter garbage. People are basing whole ideas on the fact that we have selene and her utilities when the truth is you are bad for having her out at all, ever. Magic resist/healing potency > Selene

I find SCH much harder to play than WHM, that's for sure and SCH need a better, more convenient way to control their fairies to make it less painful.
In the end the fairies are additional skill bars which don't cost any MP

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At this point I'd rather start having mana issues if that is all the requirement needed to shore up any and all weaknesses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alu79

I don't know if you are being purposely disingenuous or if you really believe all that, but a lot of that is just opinions, assumptions or just plain wrong.

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I assume you are referring to me. I am all for a good discussion, so instead of just implying I am an idiot why don't you discuss your opinion/experience in a more meaningful way and show me why I am totally wrong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alu79

I don't know if you are being purposely disingenuous or if you really believe all that, but a lot of that is just opinions, assumptions or just plain wrong.

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Really dude? I read her post and it pretty much nailed my experience as a Scholar through Titan HM. Maybe it will suddenly break down and go to hell once I start BCoB this weekend. I somehow doubt that'll be the case though.

In fact, it's a much nicer version of the same thing I said earlier. Scholars are proactive, WHM are reactive. I don't have such patience with trolls like you.

I just want Succor to have the double shield effect (as it should have been, since it's SCH unique ability) and stack with other SCHs (this is a horrible design mistake, and it should be corrected asap).