Square, Don't let the Community ruin this game

So speedruns are back?.........gods damn it, I thought this crap was done with, I'm clearly legacy, but I play the game for fun something that seems too many don't seem to appreciate.

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Originally Posted by Moochan

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I think the point OP is trying to make isn't one of conformity. I think it is one of culture. The big deal in MMOs seems to be "last 1% rush, why are you not rushing ghey faxx0rs, and done", rather than "it's a video game".

Part of this, I feel has to do with the lack of social interaction that gaming causes, combined with the modern day viewpoint of "right fricking now".


It's culture. And the culture needs to be cultivated and the spoiled sections of the culture need to be cut away. Not that the spoiled part won't be there. But the idiotically aggressive attitude most people have where they'll leave at the first sign of a relaxed non-hardcore attitude. And the same thing could be said for people who don't want to speed run; that they should also occasionally participate in a speed run or two. The main difference is that one group has a very negative, detrimental attitude, while the other group simply does not.

I haven't read the whole thread but for me the simple solution would be to included two options when you pick a dungeon in the finder.

1. New/inexperienced: for people who are new/wanting to learn the dungeon or people wanting a slower paced experience and not too worried about wipes etc.
2. Experienced: For people interested in speed runs, skipping cut scenes and not having the hassle of worrying if all the party members know the dungeon and their role in the dungeon etc.

If something like this was included in the duty finder hopefully some of the recent threads regarding bad dungeon parties etc would decrease.

speed runs you get way less xp O_ why would you do that

You have to be level 50 to enter, and thus XP doesn't matter in the slightest :)

Yeah its a really bad community right know at lvl 50, reminds me of League of Legends. Right know the dungeon are to heavy for normal players and also there is no way that a normal player can learn the dungeon because there are no people how are willing to try with them.

Right know i was in the Keep with a new tank, i must admit he was not that great, but until we got to the first boss we had 7!!! DD that leaved, but i have to say there would never be a way to kill they first boss with the tank and the DD that stayed with us.

Square needs to make the trahs more rewarding otherwhise the speedruns will not stop.

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Originally Posted by AarosLunos

Another Legacy here, I completely agree with you. If the mechanics are in place to purposefully encourage speed runs, such as extra chest pops, then I'm fine with it. The problem is the current dungeons are not really designed for speed runs. There are no additional mechanics that require a speed run.

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sure there is.

The mechanic that more runs per hour = more tokens = more gear = f off and die newbies who cant get me my gear RIGHT NOW/

and therein lieds the problem.

Speedrunners speedrun because they want as much gear as they can get in as little time as possible, and if thats not what you want, they dont care or will try to defend it as you "badmouthing how they want to play"

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Originally Posted by AarosLunos

Its not, they adjusted Haukke Manor for the same reason in beta.

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The changes necessary aren't difficult. I have to believe that if they wanted to change this, in any way, they would have already.

Or at least, responded with such intention. It is of course more than one guy running this game and decisions aren't made lightly but this isn't a weighty decision.

To be truthful, having to repeat the same run several dozen times is going to do a lot more damage to the game than worrying about how quickly people gear.

Suppose that all the trash combined dropped tokens (I really think tokens are the best option) in an equal amount to half the total that all bosses combined dropped. Speed running would technically be faster, if you were completely confident in your group. However, if your group wipes, as can happen, clearing the trash gains in efficiency.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

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We are on a weekend, and they are probably studying the situation before delivering an answer, which with most probability will come next week.

The best part about all this is that skipping pulls and dying actually costs less gil via repairs than killing all the trash.

Very well designed durability loss system.

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Originally Posted by Dannythm

We are on a weekend, and they are probably studying the situation before delivering an answer, which with most probability will come next week.

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No, no, I'm sorry.

I don't mean "ohgod they didn't react to my post in a day, they don't care!", I meant that they're aware of this, as this isn't the first topic of its type. Sometimes they reply within a few hours, but that's very rare.

That said, I just hope they are reading and actually listening

Perhaps SE can encourage completionist runs by:

1. Popping chests after certain groups of trash are cleared that will fully replenish durability and have drops

2. As well as the limit break gauge, how about a Loot gauge that fills up. Similar to Diablo 3's Nephalem Valor system, the more "trash" you kill the better level of Loot gauge you have. Players would want the max level before killing the final boss.

I am fairly sure that most of the people that have little to no patients are not legacy. To pay 1.0 you had to be very very very patient when it came to fights. I don't know where these other people came from but it is becoming a similar experience to WoW. Granted not all WoW players are the ones that people loathe and hate but we are getting those kind of players that are bringing their WoW content mentality to this game. Just because it is something u Q for in duty finder does not mean it will be face roll. Now onto the X class does more DD than X class. there is no real concrete proof of what class is doing the best however since a parser exist people use it as a basis. They do no realize since it's a log parser and the way damage is put on the log that it is not doing the correct calculations. One problem being that it does not track DoT and the way it simulates the ones it doesn't track(in smn case it only simulates 1 DoT) inflates the damage of classes such as bard. Instead of making it tick through a duration it applies the full duration all at once. If you wanted to as any class you could just spam your DoT and top the charts. Bottom line is this community needs to take a chill peel ad remember this is a game.

players already ruined it, and the modern approach at making this game destroyed it for me.
yeah im legacy played from early access 2010 now this month is the end of my journey.

SE made the game everything i hate, its a wow clone i hate WoW and dont want to play WoW jr. whole purpose of this game is to grind gear and wait in queue everything else has no point.

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Originally Posted by Telrunya

What exactly do you expect Square to do about speed runs? I guess they could get rid of incentives to clear dungeons more quickly, but I feel like that would tick off a lot of people too.

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Place mobs packs in a way where few can actually be skipped, gate parts of the dungeon by causing a mini boss to spawn once the trash is cleared. I've never been to amdapor, but if the mobs in there leash, set them to not leash.

it seems to me that most of these dungeons are incomplete for the trash mobs to not even drop anything. the whole speed running is mostly due to the need to the precious whatever everyone is after. it is actually fortunate that the few dungeons i've done, i have had no speed demons in my group, but it seems to me that in addition to making trash clearing mandatory in some way, give them some drop and tweak durability cost/rate would eliviate the issue.

i do not agree with the idea that it should be possible to skip whole clusters of mobs (or content) simply because the group is composed of people who have no patience to allocate time for an event they already want to complete.

make it impossible to speed run at all, but provide ample compensation for going through the whole process.

I'm sitting here laughing at the shouts for AK "speedrun, must be geared and experienced". AK is turning into that piece of content, unless you already have gear from it (or higher) and know how to do it, you aren't getting it done. People are too busy padding their egos and swinging their epeens at capping their weekly allowance of mythology tomes in 2-3 hours.

Mobs don't leash in any dungeon as far as I'm aware, other than a few special mobs (tonberry stalkers), people are basically sac pulling the whole zone and raising the tank at each boss, therefore skipping pretty much all the mobs defeating the point of the dungeon, turning it into a boss rush :/

Between this and FATE burning to 50 (most people then clueless on how to play their jobs), I'm honestly on edge if I want to continue playing if this is the way the community turns out.

That's why I only use DF in case I have a missing party member. Most of the party of my LS or FC. I only had to use DF once or twice for a missing person and they end up being really nice. I haven't gotten to AK but it sounds like some people need to work on being nicer to people who never done the dungeon before.

Is it really that hard to approach friends or FC members to help you in doing normal dungeon clears?

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Originally Posted by indira

players already ruined it, and the modern approach at making this game destroyed it for me.
yeah im legacy played from early access 2010 now this month is the end of my journey.

SE made the game everything i hate, its a wow clone i hate WoW and dont want to play WoW jr. whole purpose of this game is to grind gear and wait in queue everything else has no point.

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Yeh sadly everything is just to dam easy for me and my FC ><. Maybe this month is my last I don't know Im about to get my relic on my summoner and see if this makes me change my mind.

There's a term for the destructiveness of speed runners in an MMO.

They're called content locusts. They'll whine they don't have anything else to do and drop it just as fast as their dungeon runs.

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Originally Posted by indira

SE made the game everything i hate, its a wow clone i hate WoW and dont want to play WoW jr. whole purpose of this game is to grind gear and wait in queue everything else has no point.

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Sounds like you do not like MMOs or you like Pay to Win ones. Gear grind and mmos go hand and hand. Its not WoW jr. bcz it took features from it as well as other mmos in the market. Pretty sure WoW doesn't have anything remotely close to Fates for example. The class system is completely different as well, unless you are going to seriously tell me each class has 3 specs rofl. Again if you do not like gear grinding than why are you playing MMOs to begin with.

P.S.: The gear grind was worse on 1.0

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Originally Posted by KingBerry

Yeh sadly everything is just to dam easy for me and my FC ><. Maybe this month is my last I don't know Im about to get my relic on my summoner and see if this makes me change my mind.

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one can only hope...

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Originally Posted by Malix

Sounds like you do not like MMOs or you like Pay to Win ones. Gear grind and mmos go hand and hand. Its not WoW jr. bcz it took features from it as well as other mmos in the market. Pretty sure WoW doesn't have anything remotely close to Fates for example. The class system is completely different as well, unless you are going to seriously tell me each class has 3 specs rofl. Again if you do not like gear grinding than why are you playing MMOs to begin with.

P.S.: The gear grind was worse on 1.0



one can only hope...

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your just a fan boy, with your fanboy logic. blind to everything.

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Originally Posted by indira

your just a fan boy, with your fanboy logic. blind to everything.

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When you have no evidence, resort to calling people "fanboys" that always works, right?

WoW was definitely a key taking-point for FFXIV, they've admitted it themselves.

However, if anything, Fates are a very beefy descendant of FFXI's Campaign which predate RIFT's...rifts.

It's not a wow-clone though. It's prettier, it plays a lot differently at the moment and the class system is way too basic. (WoW, RIFT, FFXI all had superior class systems. I think FFXIV's would be fine if it allowed you access to abilities from more than just two jobs. I understand, and support, why gladiators can no longer equip Fire, and THM can no longer equip say Sentinel, but I don't see anything wrong with a Monk (Monk, not pug) who wants to use abilities from other melee, or a PLD who wants to use Second Wind.

But that is off-topic.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

WoW was definitely a key taking-point for FFXIV, they've admitted it themselves.

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I've seen where they said they wanted it to be more accessible like WoW, not where they said they wanted it to be like WoW. Mind pointing me to a source? I see a lot of people claiming this, but I've yet to see anyone actually post a link to anything. Maybe I just missed it at some point. ._.

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However, when the original FFXIV was in development, the goal of the project was simply to make a game that was different from Final Fantasy XI. Yoshida feels that the creators didn't recognize that the global standard of MMOs had been significantly raised in recent years. He would have suggested a different path for the game—one that mirrored FFXI's own creation. "I think it would've been good if they tried seeing what happened if they turned World of Warcraft into Final Fantasy. So, because they tried only to make something that was 'different from FFXI,' they ended up with not much of anything."

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Have to read between the lines, but he said then that's what he thought they should have done, and once he got control, that's what he did here.

I'm not saying it was a bad idea. *I wish* they would have tried to be more like FFXI because there's enough MMOs that want to be warcraft, but they still made a pretty good game.

As a legacy player I'll be the first to say screw speed runs. It was lame in 1.0 and it is lame here. It kills all the joy in doing a dungeon run.

You should be rewarded adequately for completing the run properly not burning through the run skipping everything for the seals. The problem is that the game is unbalanced in the distribution of seals and equipment at the moment. People will naturally gravitate to the easiest way to get the most seals in the least amount of time. With everyone rushing to end-game to experience the mindless gear-grind this leads to a less enjoyable experience overall.

Also FFS if you want to do a speed-run don't queue up for it on the duty finder. Go to Uldah or ask in your free company chat. Don't expect the duty finder to make the perfect party for your selfish needs. There are what 6 legacy servers and like 100000000 new servers.

Funny part is that these are the same people who kill most modern MMO's. They finish crap so quickly that they get impatient when the devs simply cannot keep up with their demand and leave the game only popping up during a new patch. However, the returns are diminishing and they generally move on over time. As old-school as FFXI was we wouldn't have been having this discussion in 2002, because most of us would have probably just been entering Qufim. It's a delicate balancing act, but spammable MC-Content is not the way to go and I will argue that until the day I die.

Edit: Also 1.2x was not more of a gear grind than 2.0. The gear was much more horizontal. Yeah the drops rates were crap, but that's because there wasn't a lot of content and they had to stretch it out until the server shut-down. I saw people with varied gear doing a plethora of content. Some people utilized pieces of AF efficiently along with triple melded crafted gear and pieces of darklight. Others utilized the Grand Company gear in conjunction with sanction and the bonus's to try and maximize certain stats at the expense of others. There was variety in the gear. Now everything is tiered. Everything. There is a firm line of progression and you follow that path until you get to the top. Then you wait for the next patch to release.

Tiered content is a breeding ground for people who need to speed run. You get pressured (even if you don't overtly notice it) to get geared to keep up with your FC'mates and keep the treadmill rolling. At least with the 1.2x system. New players were able to catch up efficiently enough thanks to the more horizontal system and tweak themselves in a variety of ways. They could try their hand at melds or grind out seals for GC gear. They could do some dungeons for Darklight drops or even explorers pieces. Was the 1.2x system perfect? Hell no, drop rates were abysmal and the crapshoot that was materia melding was irritating but at least it presented us with the illusion of choice with how we desired to gear ourselves. If you go back to the 1.0 forums and go to the job forums you will see proof of this. People were messing around with builds and what not until literally server shut-down.

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

Tiered content is a breeding ground for people who need to speed run. You get pressured (even if you don't overtly notice it) to get geared to keep up with your FC'mates and keep the treadmill rolling.

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False. Tiered progression teaches people to try to be efficient during combat and prepare themselves accordingly within a structured model. Developer oversights are breeding ground for speed runs. Since you played in 1.0, surely you remember groups rushing through the instances ignoring trash because all trash mobs were leashed.

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If you go back to the 1.0 forums and go to the job forums you will see proof of this. People were messing around with builds and what not until literally server shut-down.

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I'm surprised you demonize tiered content for the sake of a sub-group that basically went "my drg stackz crit and not str/dex. i r uniqu3". What you're asking for creates a balancing nightmare when it comes to boss design, not to mention that keeping the "variations" in line is way more trouble than its worth. Illusion of choice is just that, and as such should not exist.

When I am doing something first time, I am not going to rush it. And no way in hell you can get me to skip cutscenes. This is not some call of duty, I am here for the story.

Imo people do AK runs to grind tomestones, and they dont want to kill the same mobs all over again. I know some people love to try out content but trash mobs in this are are just time killing, nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

[I]The Legacy Community is colliding with the new community. Not cooperation, collision. Now I'm not saying it's everyone. It certainly is not, but it's frequent and unforgiving. I know there are nice people among legacies and jack***** among newbies, for sure.
I don't want to see people punished or any such nonsense), I want to see Square take some responsibility *now*, and help these two communities work together.

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This is the biggest grouping issue on Legacy servers for a lot of players at the moment, and i've ranted until i'm blue in the face about it. The Legacy/WoW players who expect perfection out of people who are brand new to FF, XIV, MMOs and the like, less than two weeks after the game has officially launched. I've even seen shouts requiring stuff like Chimera and Hydra to only allow experienced and geared players, if you can believe it.

I don't agree with the entire post, but the heart of it is dead-on.

I sure as heck hope that some sort of multi-tier plan comes to all of the dungeons in the future. That way I can enjoy the story. Believe me, I'm staying for the long haul.

Haven't gotten to this place yet, but if this is what I have to look forward to in order to complete a late-game dungeon...sheesh. Sorry for your terrible experience, tc.

I hate this dungeon! Im lucky in that i have a L/S and FC that i can do stuff with but this dungeon is like running into a brick wall, literally. Dungeons up to this point have been challenging yet fun, but nothing really prepares you for the horror that is Demon Wall.
Why make a mechanic where its clear that certain jobs have a distinct advantage here. As WHM, i barely have time to cast because im constantly moving, so the only spell possible is regen, saving Swiftcast and Medica 2 for when the flys pop. if im lucky i can get off a cure here or there. My ls mates take time to explain positioning etc but its still horrendous.
I contemplated using the dungeon finder seeing if maybe some one experienced would be able to explain but the thought of running into a bunch of gogo goer's just puts me off so its stalemate. I do think SE should implement the feature Blizzard used in WOW where people can group using the normal dungeon finder, and a seperate speed challenge for those wishing to do it that way.
I know its frustrating for speedrunners and people farming but theres alot of us that havent got ADHD type reflexes, or take a bit of time to learn layouts and mechanics.

All of these issues can be traced backed to the economic situation of servers.

I don't know about you but repair costs are expensive, unless you leveled all crafts to 50 and farm tons of gc seals for dark matter.

There are other costs as well that aren't monetary, most notably: time.

People don't like wasting time.

Basically, after learning a fight, people don't want to ever wipe in that fight ever again.

Is it right?, of course not. But I can understand the reasoning behind it.

Oh and yes I'm legacy, thanks for insulting me before knowing me first.

Mate i have played from the 1st alpha of the original Final fantasy 14 and me and my friends haven't had a single problem with the community, maybe its just your attitude that attracts tho's bad types of people neither the less people need to stop complaining about everything and just enjoy the game my question to you is if you don't like it then why play it ?

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Originally Posted by Giyari

Oh and yes I'm legacy, thanks for insulting me before knowing me first.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

Now I'm not saying it's everyone. It certainly is not, but it's frequent and unforgiving. I know there are nice people among legacies and jack***** among newbies, for sure.

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He clearly says its not everyone in Legacy, implying that the difference in experience/knowledge is a factor. I do agree with the economics of the game being a huge factor behind "strict" players.

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Originally Posted by Virgal

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Yeah, because duty finder picks up on "attitudes". This whole post exists because there are people that CAN'T enjoy the game; even if they love ARR, run-ins with certain players are intimidating them. If you've had friends gaming with you from 1.0 alpha, then this whole experience has been completely different for you because you have people you can depend on. Not every player can say that currently.

I've seen tanks and healers rage. I've seen DPS make a snarky comment to set someone off. I'm very non-aggressive and very forgiving in dungeons because I do not want to start shit. Oh sure, if someone is repeatedly attacking the wrong target, I want to chastise them, but in the end, if we win, that's all that matters. It's better than starting a chain of blame.

I posted a screenshot in the OP to show just how messed up the situation is. I wouldn't have said what the bard in the SS said, but he was trying to be honest and up front. He didn't know what speed run was and he thought maybe he wouldn't meet the DPS check, so he announced that and offered to leave. What he got was laughed at and people left.

I'm not sure if Virgal's comment about attitude is directed at me, but if it is, show me where I had a chance to have attitude. I merely said hello and that happened.

Bump.

Now that more people are hitting 50, this stupid instance is overpacked becausei it's a bottleneck on gear. I don't know where else I can go to improve and I'm not saying that I'm great geared. I need Darklight and I need Relic, but there's such limited ways to acquire that.

Do something to help this, Square.