7th Alpha video "Levequests and Party Combat"

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

I'ma tell you somethin' that you may not know.

This isn't CoD.

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that isnt what i tried to tell you. i said this, because some people seem like they want to have a "FF of Duty". what means.. mainstream. like Guildwars 2, TERA; SWTOR etc.

more action, action, button smashing.. boom boom. ya know.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

I'm fed up with the pre-"CoD generation" and their "everything needs to take as long as humanly possible because it just should!" nonsense. Not a single person in the entire world complains about having a faster internet connection than they used to...so why are you doing the exact same thing with gaming?

Things progress. Deal with it. :rolleyes:

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so a turn based game like might and magic isnt a modern "progressed" game to you? same for strategy games? ;XD

sorry what kind of stupid post here.. faster, more spam, does not imply that this is a modern game.. if it ends like an awful feeling spam fest like GW2 or TERA please kill me.. the combat in ARR isnt slow to me.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

that isnt what i tried to tell you. i said this, because some people seem like they want to have a "FF of Duty". what means.. mainstream. like Guildwars 2, TERA; SWTOR etc.

more action, action, button smashing.. boom boom. ya know.



so a turn based game like might and magic isnt a modern "progressed" game to you? same for strategy games? ;XD

sorry what kind of stupid post here.. faster, more spam, does not imply that this is a modern game.. if it ends like an awful feeling spam fest like GW2 or TERA please kill me.. the combat in ARR isnt slow to me.

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Just because a game is what you call "mainstream" doesn't mean it's a bad game.

Likewise, just because combat isn't what you call "slow" doesn't mean it's what you call a "spam fest".

You are reading entirely too much into this video. Its only purpose was to show you the party UI. Take a Zanax and chill.

This post explains everything.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Just because a game is what you call "mainstream" doesn't mean it's a bad game.

Likewise, just because combat isn't what you call "slow" doesn't mean it's what you call a "spam fest".

You are reading entirely too much into this video. Its only purpose was to show you the party UI. Take a Zanax and chill.

This post explains everything.

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you totally misunderstood me i think... i am not saying that i think that ARR combat is too fast.. i was refering to "Hopefully the beta shows a revamped battle system because the system in the video looks boring." what it doesnt to me..

and the other one said " Not a single person in the entire world complains about having a faster internet connection than they used to...so why are you doing the exact same thing with gaming?

Things progress. Deal with it. "

saying that a faster combat is a part of the "modern way of gaming". what it isnt you can design turn based, you can design action combat, you can design a mix between these.
faster does not mean "more modern". its a matter of a design decision.

that you can cast almost any spell as an elementalist in guildwars 2 instant and "on the fly" does not mean, that this system is more "modern"..


thats why i was refering to CoD. because they cry for more "action", "why do i have to stand still while casting?" , "why we cant cast while running?" , "we need more instant bUtt0ns".
why do SE has to do the same like TERA and GW2 with ther Combat system? a conjurer must not be able to cast a wind spell while moving like a crazy chicken.. why, why why..
but it looks like the players want them to do so.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Is THIS (GW2) more fun to you? (besides that the environment sucks in comparison to ARR)
well at least while playing GW2 i felt aslept and bored out.. although you can cast (or shall i say SPAM?) every fuckin' spell "on the fly".

the elementalist feels so badly designed.. less damage, spam monster 0verKilL.. no then i like it much more like we can see it in this video here. but thats my matter of taste.


how people these days try to hard to make a damn "Call Of Duty" out of every MMO. it did not make GW2 or TERA better in any ways! and i always have in mind that FF originally is coming from a turn based RPG.


im so fed up with this CoD generation. ..
*boom boom* peng* peng* we need more instant SPAM BUTTONS!

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Watching this sort of videos from the game's competition make me feel kind of reassured.

GW2's combat looks absolutely awful. Not only does it look like a mindless spamfest, but it also turns mage gameplay (and I bet not just the mage's) into more of a third person shooter than an RPG.

I'm not all that happy about the changes to the combat system, but at least I hope they steer clear out of that style most MMOs are going for. It looks terrible to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

you totally misunderstood me i think...

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Maybe I did...

Are you saying you liked what you saw in the video??

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Maybe I did...

Are you saying you liked what you saw in the video??

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yes i liked it

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

yes i liked it

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Then I did misunderstand you. I apologize.

My point is still valid, though, even if it doesn't apply to you.

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Originally Posted by Dragonheart

Nice to hear, but there is any info on why the fights looks so static? ... 5 mins of spamming ws vs tank & spank mobs..
This look pretty boring to people used to the "new" games... :(

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Maybe because of the CNJ+ARC+LNC stacking party
A party without a PGL is always boring ^^

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

sorry i disagree.. the battlesystem is A LOT better than 1.0. and i love it.

im so fed up with this CoD generation. ..
*boom boom* peng* peng* we need more instant SPAM BUTTONS!

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That would also appear to be the direction that ARR is going in, even from the videos alone. Just... with a GCD that feels a bit irkingly long on any class but Archer.

Edit: to be clear, I agree with the idea that combat doesn't need to be fast nor is there any necessary connection between "fast" and "modern". I just think that a game's timing should fit the feel of combat as a whole. ARR thus far doesn't look tactile--it looks relatively instantaneous and capable of a very real sense of timing; as such I would expect that I'm not waiting exactly two and a half seconds between each of my lightning-quick attacks, but that this kind of pacing also feels real. This takes either a slight bit of general slowing of the animations to a still-reasonable and more tactically-appreciative pace, or some decrease to the time between attacks. Or, it requires a system that completely leaves that field of contention altogether.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Maybe because of the CNJ+ARC+LNC stacking party
A party without a PGL is always boring ^^

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We only have those 3 classes made so far. Rest probably won't arrive til Beta. Though I agree with the need for PGL when seeking entertainment...

I still think people complaining about everything in ARR are on the wrong genre ...
80% of a MMORPG can't be changed or it wouldn't be a MMORPG ...and no it wont be a clone of anything ,Yoshi-P is following basic rules of the genre and improving upon them ..something 1.0 launch failed at miserably and Yoshi-P knows that very well...and he wont make the same mistakes because people making nitpicky threads daily..but because he is an experienced player of the genre which many here aren't ..he wants to play and enjoy the final product as much as any of us.

complaining it will be similar to other games is stupid....would you accuse Polyphony of been mainstream and clone other games when they made gran turismo? race car games are all about the same.. FPSs are the same,action adventure are the same,mech games are the same etc etc. but there are titles that stand out more than the rest and become the best of the genre..I believe FFXIV:ARR is gonna pull off that :D

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

with a GCD that feels a bit irkingly long on any class but Archer.

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well i think the global cooldown is there to slow down the combat a bit.

because otherwise a melee class could spam a weapon skill just every second (and before the animation has finished).
that would be just unbalanced. it would mean a melee damage dealer could do about 5 ws in 5 seconds (= instant mob kill) and damage out every mage very easily.

the ws right now in ARR do lots of damage and are totally instant. no global cooldown would mean, that there would be no small "pause" between those WS. and thats how to prevent it.


maybe it wasnt a good idea all in all to let melee classes have full TP from the start. And it seems also, that the WS itself cost way too less TP.

you dont really have to care about your TP like it seems.
very unbalanced for now if you ask me.

i would like the idea too double the tp costs, and maybe that you gain back some TP when you are using a combo.. i dont know.. but the system is not well thought. the TP bar now is nothing different but an other MP bar.

the conjurer casts a spell for 3 seconds seems to do much less damage then the lancer etc.
and then on the opposite, the lancer uses his damage skills instantly, does more damage, he seems to lose less TP than a mage, and the TP regeneration seems to be also faster.

they have much to balance in beta.. but this new melee combat system is VERY unpolished


the conjurer does around 42-57 damage (3 seconds to cast) = 57 damage in a total (within 3 seconds)
while
the lancer does around 70-121 damage (instantly!) this means x 3seconds (because of cnj casting time) = ~250 damage + auto attack hits (around 37 dmg) in a total

thats not totally correct, but you get the idea.

we dont have to talk about "DPS" (Damage per second) dont we? ;XD

We need to see what dmg a BLM will do compared to melee, CNJ is not a DD so can't really compare that. And like everybody says it's alpha we don't even know how the combat system gonna look in beta. Remember 1.0 Alpha they changed the combat system too before beta.

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

We need to see what dmg a BLM will do compared to melee, CNJ is not a DD so can't really compare that. And like everybody says it's alpha we don't even know how the combat system gonna look in beta. Remember 1.0 Alpha they changed the combat system too before beta.

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I don't mind if combat doesn't change one bit from alpha to beta because i like what i have seen ..there is no reason to change Yoshi-P's ideal of combat is much much better already than 1.0

Ya what i want to say, we really need to wait for beta now, we don't know what they gonna change and all we have seen are 3 classes at level 20 and that is almost worth nothing.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

I still think people complaining about everything in ARR are on the wrong genre ...
80% of a MMORPG can't be changed or it wouldn't be a MMORPG

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So you're saying your first MMORPG is WoW?

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Originally Posted by Warlock

I don't mind if combat doesn't change one bit from alpha to beta because i like what i have seen ..there is no reason to change Yoshi-P's ideal of combat is much much better already than 1.0

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If it doesn't change a lot from alpha to level 50 in beta, the game's screwed (once again). This is bare bones and incredibly simplistic. The latency is much improved, which is critical, but that doesn't mean it's a finished battle system.

Unless your idea of "much better" is clicking something every 3 seconds and watching a cutscene of weaponskills filling the screen, alpha battle is in dire need of complexity. I don't see a problem with thinking beta wil be better, but to applaud this as complete is ridiculous.

I see they still haven't found an alternative to that goofy Archer punch. Looks like you can now get a leve issued right at the Aetherite camp, I'm sure some people will like not having to run/warp back to town to get new leves. As far as combat goes, looks like they re-designed a few weapon skills.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

So you're saying your first MMORPG is WoW?

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lol this comment is not even worthy of a reply but i'll do it anyways....you keep talking like FFXI has been your first and only MMORPG which makes you to come up with such ridiculous demands of ARR to be FFXI-2

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Originally Posted by Coyohma

If it doesn't change a lot from alpha to level 50 in beta, the game's screwed (once again). This is bare bones and incredibly simplistic. The latency is much improved, which is critical, but that doesn't mean it's a finished battle system.

Unless your idea of "much better" is clicking something every 3 seconds and watching a cutscene of weaponskills filling the screen, alpha battle is in dire need of complexity. I don't see a problem with thinking beta wil be better, but to applaud this as complete is ridiculous.

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yet it is still better than 1.0 ..that was my point...what's yours?

The only thing that will change in the beta is the Damage Algorithm. or cool down.

i like games with longer fights, i don't want each fight being the same no matter what mobs your fighting. i personally want to see every mob have different classes. even the animal and monster types. give them things to dispel and remove, give us reason to pay attention to if they remove protect or haste or any enfeebles from our tanks and mele. and i get this makes mage classes super super fun and entertaining but you can add things like this to all classes. thf had position, war was just boring and simple but these are choices you can make when picking a class.

so yeah longer is better way to go, this whole speed fight thing is a cop out to create a cheap, less thought out mmo with way less dynamic fights. from rank 1 to max you should be seeing mobs growing with you, seeing them with new moves just the same as you. they shouldn't just be more damage, or more hp. or simply the same from rank 1 to 50 as long as your the correct levels. this isn't just for bosses, this should be from beginning to end of any and all mmo's.

...and yes i get that we will see new classes one day and cap raises ..one day. but we saw mobs with these moves from the begining in ffxi, it was us that finally got spells to remove them and the like. i not see this in 1.XX till the beastmen camps. one camp had 2 mages only that need to be silenced. it was exciting to see as a mage but i really want to see way way more of this. what i see 1.0 all the way to these videos is absolute crap for a battle system, crap for mobs and gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

yet it is still better than 1.0 ..that was my point...what's yours?

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Exactly how are you defining better? Removing control of your TP generation, eliminating most of your combo positioning? Removing individual cooldowns in favor of a 3 second cushion?

We don't know the specifics on how they're going to make us think/decide/execute - but this alpha isn't it. A lot of what made 1.0's combat more complex has been removed, in favor of.. nothing, right now.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

lol this comment is not even worthy of a reply but i'll do it anyways.

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So you're saying your first MMO was indeed WoW, understood.

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which makes you to come up with such ridiculous

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Said the one that stated if the majority of an MMORPG doesn't stay the same it's no longer called an MMO, this is why I'm pretty sure your first MMORPG was WoW, or else you'd realize that prior to it companies actually tried different things and tried going in different directions with major aspects or else MMOs wouldn't have existed today :D

You know, we'd still only have P&P RPGs like D&D and MUDs in terms of PC MMOs. The only thing that stays the same that would define an MMORPG is:

1. It's a hub for hundreds to millions of people to gather together and play online.
2. It's designed in the style of an RPG (since we're talking about MMORPGs)

MMORPG = "Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game", which generally means it's an online RPG where instead of npcs as allies, you play the RPG with many other people and since I'm a person who grew up in the 80s and 90s, I know full well there's many genres of RPG out there :D.

That's not "80%" or known as "majority", that's only a core part of it. MMOs wouldn't have become full blown clients or even on a browser or phone if they left everything the same from the beginning instead of...building off of things..weird concept that developers built off of stuff instead of settling for "being standard" one point, huh?

Using your logic of this though:

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demands of ARR to be FFXI-2

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The races, the mobs and the job classes which were also used in XI means ARR is XI-2..oh and Crystal Tower = FFIII-2 and Magitek straight out of FFVI = FFVI-2. So if Magiteks are mobile units that has a mounted soldier in the Garlean empire, ARR is now FFVI-2. Actually, using your logic every FF that came out since FFI is FFI-2+, since using aspects and building off a previous one makes it "-2" of it according to you.

FFX-2 and FFXIII-2 are the only -2s as they're set in the same world and follow the same story events and elements.

P.S My first MMO wasn't an MMORPG, it was a MUD and my most played MMO consistently was Ragnarok :D, even SE looks back to stuff they've created.

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Originally Posted by Coyohma

Exactly how are you defining better? Removing control of your TP generation, eliminating most of your combo positioning? Removing individual cooldowns in favor of a 3 second cushion?

We don't know the specifics on how they're going to make us think/decide/execute - but this alpha isn't it. A lot of what made 1.0's combat more complex has been removed, in favor of.. nothing, right now.

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Careful, he's going to say you're afraid of change or didn't play 1.0 or defending "bad game design" or whatever else people like that come up with. And before he even says it:

Yes, it's been confirmed they removed combo position from ARR for PvP play, so no it's not excluded just from Alpha or anything like that, they stripped the system down greatly for PvP play.

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Originally Posted by Coyohma

Exactly how are you defining better? Removing control of your TP generation, eliminating most of your combo positioning? Removing individual cooldowns in favor of a 3 second cushion?

We don't know the specifics on how they're going to make us think/decide/execute - but this alpha isn't it. A lot of what made 1.0's combat more complex has been removed, in favor of.. nothing, right now.

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You are hopeless then if you think we haven't gained anything with the new engine.
you don't control with hits how you gain TP but you will be in full control how you consume it and it will regain like MP does for mages.
you will still have to position yourself for combo to work on the first hit and just like before there are moves that benefit from been done from behind so you will still do those from there.
you spammed more with individual timers as proved already

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Originally Posted by Warlock

you will still have to position yourself for combo to work on the first hit and just like before there are moves that benefit from been done from behind so you will still do those from there.

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No, they confirmed you only need to land the first hit in a combo and they took out the direction requirement because it hinders PvP play.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

No, they confirmed you only need to land the first hit in a combo and they took out the direction requirement because it hinders PvP play.

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lolwut...Do you even read what i type? "you still have to position yourself for combo to work" = the first hit of a combo still has a direction trigger for combos

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Originally Posted by Warlock

lolwut...Do you even read what i type? "you still have to position yourself for combo to work" = the first hit of a combo still has a direction trigger for combos

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"Position yourself" = From the Left/Right/Front/Back which is what people are talking about with the Combos. "Position Requirements". "Positioning yourself to land a hit" isn't the exact same concept, because you can be in any position and have your combo goes off rather than needing to hit from the back > left/right for a combo etc.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

they took out the direction requirement because it hinders PvP play.

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Thank God. Personally I absolutely hated dancing around the mob to do a combo.

There seems to be a lot of hate for the style in which current MMOs play, which Yoshi-P is going for in ARR. Seems to stem from an irrational fear of change or unwilling to accept a game that is different from FFXI or 14 1.0.

I don't really understand it because everything Yoshi doing is an improvement in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

There seems to be a lot of hate for the style in which current MMOs play

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And yet people get bored very quickly.

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Seems to stem from an irrational fear of change or unwilling to accept a game

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Care to explain why APB went offline and had to be bought out to get relaunched? Care to explain why people quit Rift in droves? Care to explain why Tera flopped in every most of its supported countries including it's home country? They're nothing like XI or XIV.

You seem to be the one that fears something regarding XI/XIV 1.0. I mean, new MMOs are failing and under performing because they're nothing like XI or XIV 1.0 right?

Seriously?

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Originally Posted by Elexia

And yet people get bored very quickly.



Care to explain why APB went offline and had to be bought out to get relaunched? Care to explain why people quit Rift in droves? Care to explain why Tera flopped in every most of its supported countries including it's home country? They're nothing like XI or XIV.

You seem to be the one that fears something regarding XI/XIV 1.0. I mean, new MMOs are failing and under performing because they're nothing like XI or XIV 1.0 right?

Seriously?

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Yeah because all those games had the interesting and immersing main storyline FFXIV had leading up to "End of an Era" trailer thanks to Yoshi-P. FFXIV 1.0 had terrible battle mechanics but FF fans are sticking around for the awesome history ,FFXIV ARR will bring balance to it ..now it wont be just an awesome History but also an awesome battle system with very interesting raids and when i say raids i mean everything ARR will posses within first months/year

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Originally Posted by Elexia

And yet people get bored very quickly.



Care to explain why APB went offline and had to be bought out to get relaunched? Care to explain why people quit Rift in droves? Care to explain why Tera flopped in every most of its supported countries including it's home country? They're nothing like XI or XIV.

You seem to be the one that fears something regarding XI/XIV 1.0. I mean, new MMOs are failing and under performing because they're nothing like XI or XIV 1.0 right?

Seriously?

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Sure thing Tera is a Korean grinder more or less with a not so good story. A lot of people do not like Korean grinders in general.

Rift tried to copy WoW so much in that intially they got some WoW players to play it but then they thought if I am going to play a game that so similar to WoW I might as well go back and play WoW since their content is usually better and backed by a bigger budget. Rift may have around 200k subs now which really isn't anywhere near WoW numbers but most analysts believe WoW sub numbers are a fluke that will never happen again ever for a MMO. But they must be happy with those numbers because they are releasing an expansion for it.

FF14 1.0 outright failed due to many launch problems (bad laggy server structure, slow UI, battle system that wasn't working right, animation lock, no mail, or AH) SE was not happy with the 50k or so fans that stuck with it so they had to do something which is ARR. It was mostly fans of the game that stayed with it, but everyone else wouldn't even touch it.

I played FFXIV 1.0 from beta till after the Jobs were implemented. Before that was WoW and FFXI. I got bored of FFXIV because I felt SE slowed the content and was forcing me to run it endlessly because of very bad drop rates so I decided to play other games.

I played Tera, D3(big mistake), GW2 and Borderlands 2 since then. I didn't realize how bad the FFXIV 1.0 combat system is till I played Tera and GW2.

NA version of Tera didn't feel that grindy. It only took me a few weeks to get max level so it's not much of a traditional Korean grinder MMO, this is probably why it didn't do so well in Korea. It's too quick to complete for the hardcore player. You're right it doesn't have a good story, and the quest are very very boring. The best thing about Tera is the combat system, I find it's even better then GW2 combat system. Feels like Bluehole Studio focused way too much on the combat system, and threw the rest of the game together like a bad version of WoW.

Out of all the combat systems I find FFXIV 1.0 the worst.

Things I don't like about FFXIV 1.0 Combat System:

• Animation Lock. Unable to move your character during weapon skills. This became super annoying during fighting Ifrit where you would have to watch the combat log and time your weapon skill with the boss's weapon skill. Tera has animation lock, however it's a must for that combat system because you could dodge all mobs attacks by moving your character. Tera does have a panic dodge ability that works during animation lock.
• Melee having to dance around the mob to do combos. This is an odd thing to implement. Melee combos become restricted during boss encounters that have front and back cone attacks.
• Having to build TP before you could do any of your weapon skills.
• Controls designed for a console/controller. I ended up buying a xbox 360 controller because I couldn't stand the keyboard and mouse controls.

From what I see from Alpha videos, SE is addressing most these issues I'm concern about with the combat system.

I played FFXIV 1.0 longer than these other games because there was a lot of things to do and the ingame community is better. I like that I can keep my character's identity rather then playing alts when I want to play other classes. There's no such thing as an altoholic in FFXI/FFXIV. I also like the stories from Final Fantasy games. I tolerated the combat system while my RL friends did not, they quit shortly after the game was released.

Lot of the people left here are the people who tolerated or like the FFXIV 1.0 combat system. Those who could not are already gone. So I'm not surprised there are a lot of people here upset with the changes.

In my opinion the Alpha shows a promising outlook for FFXIV 2.0. :)

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Originally Posted by Warlock

Yeah because all those games had the interesting and immersing main storyline FFXIV had leading up to "End of an Era" trailer thanks to Yoshi-P. FFXIV 1.0 had terrible battle mechanics but FF fans are sticking around for the awesome history, FFXIV ARR will bring balance to it ..now it wont be just an awesome History but also an awesome battle system with very interesting raids and when i say raids i mean everything ARR will posses within first months/year

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I don't know where you get this confidence from. And while the mere 20 levels of the alpha aren't a great example by any shot, I have trouble picturing someone who played it retaining this sense of assurence. Have you?

I don't see anything in Yoshi's notes that looks especially good on paper, let alone with a clear and solid implementation strategy. I sure as hell want it to work--no MMO comes close to how much I look forward to ARR doing well--but honestly I don't see the signs of this awesome battle system or necessarily interesting raids anywhere. Concepts, sure. But even a company as overly down-to-earth as Blizzard makes some very interesting concepts (before tearing them down in each implementation process).

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

well i think the global cooldown is there to slow down the combat a bit.

because otherwise a melee class could spam a weapon skill just every second (and before the animation has finished).
that would be just unbalanced. it would mean a melee damage dealer could do about 5 ws in 5 seconds (= instant mob kill) and damage out every mage very easily.

the ws right now in ARR do lots of damage and are totally instant. no global cooldown would mean, that there would be no small "pause" between those WS. and thats how to prevent it.

i would like the idea too double the tp costs, and maybe that you gain back some TP when you are using a combo.. i dont know.. but the system is not well thought. the TP bar now is nothing different but an other MP bar.

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Just a couple points real quick: I don't think anyone would ask for the complete removal of the GCD. Even 1.x had one; it was just shorter than almost all of our animations, and thereby wasn't really a factor for us. It's not a genre standard so much as a sanity of server design standard, and there's no reason for it not to be used really, except perhaps in the case of high-speed combos. That said, it doesn't take much to waive the GCD for certain abilities (GCD-share sets) when followed by certain other abilities in order to accomplish that.

I'd agree that TP is simply another MP, a bloated stamina bar, or energy/focus bar (WoW) and doesn't have a spec of uniqueness to it in that sense. I'd love to see something actually new, instead of a yet another *15*-seconds worth of abilities at *30*-seconds regrowth time bar.

It's not that there's anything wrong with a old or simple model. It's just a problem when it's dull. This... is pretty dull.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

~snip~

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And yet here you are.

at least the animation of mobs getting attacked wont look like their spasming come beta ._.